Good morning ALL :
Sure would appreciate a little help.
I am looking for that hand rubbed look you find in a walnut piece of furniture . You know that look that’s the piece has been around a while . I am attempting this on a cherry piece,and thinking about shellac or minwax’s natural stain & sealer with a wipe on satin ploy. Should I use a tung oil for warm rubbed look?
Can the look I am looking for be achieved with shellac?
Thank you for your help
Amox
Replies
While it is reprehensible that marketing of "Tung Oil Finish" is so nearly deceptive, there is a good reason. Pure tung oil takes a very long time to cure and can give bad effects if not well handled. Manufacturers prefer to sell products that work like people expect--so they substitute easier to use products such as oil/varnish mixes or wiping varnish.
Boiled linseed oil dries more quickly, though still not fast. It darkens slightly more than tung oil. If I had to use an oil I would chose this.
The purpose of an oil before applying top coats is to emphasize figure, or to darken the color. About 99.5% of those effects can be achieved with an oil/varnish mix and about 98% of the same effects can be achieved just using an oil based varnish. Both the oil/varnish and oil based varnish cure faster and more reliably than using a pure oil.
From your description of what you want, I think you may have an "in-the-wood" finish use in mind. For that, use an oil/varnish mix such as Watco rather than pure tung oil. If you want an very thin film but a bit more substantial--use a wiping varnish such as Waterlox. For an alternative, you can apply shellac thin--read the posts by frenchy for that.
The number one question: "How (and where) will this piece be used?"
There are a number of ways to achieve an aged, hand-rubbed look but not all of them will be appropriate for the piece. If it's to be used anywhere near a kitchen or pantry, or among children and pets, I'd suggest you follow Steve's advice and look to an oil/varnish mix or a traditional varnish. (Tried & True comes to mind.) Nothing looks so fine as a rubbed out oil varnish on Cherry - and it's durable.
Some folks swear by shellac. With a house full of kids and critters, I'm not one of them.
Poly is a four letter word. Poly rhymes with Plastic. Poly looks best when sitting in a can on some other guys shelf.
Thank you for your advise . I do not think this piece will get heavy traffic .
Do you think shellac will yield a more in the wood look than a varnish?
Drying time is a factor . Need to get it done.
I am working in an unheated space ,its around 40 - 50 degrees . Shellac does not seem to be affected by the cool temp. What do you think?
Amox
An off the shelf oil like Watco will setup quickly - 3 days, maybe, if you bring the piece into the house to dry - and will add the color and depth of figure you're looking for. On Cherry, I prefer boiled linseed oil in a homebrew oil/varnish/turp mix but it takes a bit longer to dry.For a piece that won't take a beating, the top coat is your choice. Assuming the oil has fully dried, shellac will work. I'm not the guy to ask about shellac. Varnish would be my choice. Rubbed out varnish over oil on Cherry is something special and it just gets better with age.40 to 50 degrees? I think that whatever finish you choose, you should bring the piece to a warm room to dry.
It doesn't sound like you are set up to spray, but I'll throw this one out for those who are.
Sherwin Williams commercial coatings division sells a product called "SHER-WOOD Super KEMVAR "C" Catalyzed Vinyl Coating" which yields a nearly impossible to detect finish coat. I've never seen anything like it short of a penetrating oil. They claim that their KEMVAR "M" (also a vinyl conversion varnish) will achieve the same look if over-reduced at 25%. But it still builds more of a surface film than the "C" does.
Kevin,
And the stuff is really abrasion resistant. It is tough! It has a very attractive low-sheen surface - very nice for kitchen cabinets.
Sherwyn Williams recommends a penetrating oil first:
http://www2.sherwin-williams.com/chemicalcoatings/datapages/CC-F8.pdf
Rich
Yes it is deceptively tough. Other than the resulting visual similarities it really is very different from penetrating oil finishes.
The first time I was exposed to it was a couple years ago when a client submitted a finish sample labeled as having a conversion varnish on it that I had to match. At first I swore that there was no finish on the sample. It wasn't until I examined it very closely under very bright lights that I could detect just the faintest hint of a finish in the veneer pores. My reaction was, "no way can I match that with any finish I've ever heard of!" But then we figured out what it was and bought some of the same for the job. LOL I've still not seen anything like it.
A while back the local Rodda finishes specialist was by my work trying to get our business. I handed him my matching sample for that same job and asked him to replicate it, both color and finish...just to demonstrate his lab capabilities, which he advertised as excellent. A couple weeks later he dropped off his sample. Vaguely sorta close. The color was just about dead on, but his had an easily detectable film on the surface. Strike out!
The SW "M" varnish is my go-to finish for customers here at work. It's really easy to apply, has a 5-day potlife, is uber-resistant to cold checking and industrial cleaners and has the most seductively soft tactile feedback in the DRE/MRE sheen. I love it! Unfortunately they only stock it on the East Coast and it takes me at least a week after ordering some before I get it.
Edited 2/13/2007 4:48 pm by Kevin
Yes, I've seen both finishes. I think I like the SW M better. It did not seem to be much of a surface film, but had a higher sheen than the "penetrating type."
I don't think I'd be too good at applying these products as I rub out everything I spray, finishing the finish. I assume, after leveling the first coat, the second coat is left "as-is?"
Rich
Yes, the second coat is left "off the gun" as Jeff Jewitt would say. Although I'm of the same school of thought as Frenchy is in that I like to over-reduce and add a third coat on top to make up the difference. Which is how I know that the "M" doesn't yield the same look as the "C" even over-reduced.
There are ways of getting a nearly perfect topcoat off-the-gun, particularly on something tight-grained like Maple or Birch. With the "M" the trick is to disregard their recommended thinner and instead use a blend of MEK and PM Acetate at anywhere from 50/50 to 90/10 depending on ambient conditions.
The "C" is a set sheen. There is no choice over the matter. SW's spec sheet lists it as less than 10 units at a 60 degree reflection, which is somewhere between a dead flat and a satin... or approximately an "eggshell" if you speak Pratt & Lambert. The "M" only comes in DRE (dull rubbed effect) and MRE (medium rubbed effect), both of which are shinier than the "C". Although DRE is only slightly glossier. But it forms a surface film which makes the difference starker.
Amox,
I agree with the comments about bringing the piece inside while the finish cures. You will have some smell, but at least the finish will cure.
I have tried many different brands of oil/varnish blends and they all work. I am currently using MinWax Antique Oil Finish. It comes in a red can and is not too expensive. I really like it, especially on cherry, because I don't have to mix two or three finishes together and it really brings out the natural color of the wood. You apply it, let it sit wet on the surface for awhile, and then wipe off all of the excess. (just like all other oil/varnish blends, WATCO included) The key to achieving a hand rubbed look is in the sanding. You should sand at least to 220 grit and I would recommend going to 320 grit, before you apply any finish.
If you want a little more protection, I would use one of the wipe on polyurethane finishes. I prefer the MinWax brand, and almost always use the gloss version, not satin. You apply the finish with a rag or smooth paper towel. Each coat is thin, so you can stop after three or four coats and not get a thick buildup, but still have more protection than with the oil/varnish blend. You can quickly rub it out with 400 g paper and then perhaps some 0000 steel wool. The color you achieve will be very similar to that produced by the oil/varnish blends.
For the best wear protection, I use clear gloss varnish, brush on several coats, level it, and rub it out to whatever sheen I want. This produces a really nice looking and feeling surface.
I hope this helps with all of the other good ideas.
Good luck, Tom.
So glad beachfarm pinpointed poly. If you want an "in the wood finish", it ain't poly. Or anything Minwax.Gretchen
I could have - and should have - and will - hold my tongue on the issue of Polyurethane. Nothing good to say, say nothing at all. Etc...
Edited 2/13/2007 2:33 pm ET by beachfarm
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