Hello All- I am new to this site but we have been swimming in issues of FineWW for as long as I can remember. (My father is a woodworker.) I am about to attempt to make some cabinet doors with mitered corner joints (facing). I have the grooved 1xs ready to go along with a homemade miter box and saw. If anyone could drop me some simple tips about sawing and joining the mitered corners I would really appreciate the input. The information I have found is too advanced for me, because I am looking for the most basic ideas behind making the corners. (I am working with a hand saw here!) For instance, any information about the which way the grain should go, or how to turn the boards correctly to make sure I don’t chop off a bunch of mismatched corners, would be great. I only have so much wood to work with!
Thanks!
Jenny
Replies
First, I have to say that this sounds very difficult. I use power tools for this type of thing and even then it's not as easy as it sounds to get good tight joints.
You need to have the opposing sides absolutely equal in length. Otherwise the doors won't be square. Each cut doesn't necessarily have to be exactly 45 degrees, but in combination the two cuts that make up a joint have to equal exactly 90 degrees (in other words, if one cut is 44.5 degrees, the other can be 45.5 degrees).
You also need to have the saw exactly perpendicular to the wood so that cut is square to the wood. Otherwise, when you put the pieces together there will be gaps either on the front side or the back side.
To me, the right way to do this would be to cut the miters a little oversize on the miter box and use a jig and a hand plane to fine tune the cut. Perhaps some others who work more with hand tools can help here.
John
Miter,
Welcome, I can't add much to John's comments, but perhaps you could clarify the situation a bit further. Will these doors have a panel?..how large?..will you rely on the miter joint only for strength...ie. no tennon? John indicated using a hand plane to finish off the cut (get rid of fuzzy stuff and make the joint tighter) usually that is facilitated with a shooting board so that the plane is lying on its side and the miter stays perpendicular to the blade...
I agree with John. This is a difficult project. You will get your best results using a handplane and a shooting board to fine tune the joints. I don't think a miter joint is the best joint for this application though. They tend to open up with changes in humidity.
Miter,
You have planned a joint which is not perfect for the use, but you can probably make it work ok. Others, above, have commented on the best approaches.
One other thought is to make the panel structural. What material had you planned for the panel? If it is plywood or some such thing, then making it structural will be fine. It will support the joints you chose. If it is to be solid wood, then it won't work. Just a thought.
One more thought. The miter joints will probably be weak, even if they're tight. You could improve the strength of the joint by cutting a dado in the middle of the edges that are to be glued up (think here of the groove in tongue and groove flooring), and fill the dado with a spline. This should strengthen the joint a lot. Note that the spline will show on the outside corner, so the dado should be precise and consistent in width and depth, and the spline should be consistent in thickness and width. Done properly this actually can improve the look of the corners.
To get the most benefit from the spline you should run the grain (of the spline) perpendicular to the joint, not parallel with it.
John
Edited 3/4/2003 5:35:04 PM ET by johnhardy
First- Thanks to everyone that responded!
I am glad to have the suggestion about using a handplane to clean up the cut-I wondered if that would be ok.
The strength of the joint does concern me, however, I don't have to worry about kids yanking on the doors and they need not support any real weight, so I think they will be ok.
The interior of the doors will be simple paneling fitted into the grooves. They will measure roughly 2' wide by 2.5' tall.
My main worries are cutting accurate angles with the tools I have to work with and that the doors lay flatly against the face of the cabinet itself.
Anyway-I am going to first construct a door from scrap to see where the problems present themselves and work from there. If anyone has any further ideas, I would be glad to hear them!
Thanks again for the suggestions, the will come in handy!
Jenny
Jenny,
Excellent reply's so far. The comments you've gotten about strength are not concerned about weight, the problem here is use and abuse. Cabinet doors opening and closing all the time is a lot of banging. Think of it this way, miters are used on picture frames all the time but how much abuse does a picture get hanging on the wall. I just finished a wall display cabinet with mitered corners, 24" x 43" door and double strength glass (1/8" thick), thats a lot of weight, but its a display cabinet that does not get regular use.
I love miters, I do a lot of picture frames and custom mat cutting, but they can not be used everywhere.
Enjoy, Roy
First off, I would suggest that unless you have very good homemade miter box, a sharp saw and the skill to use them, plan on a "rustic" design
Once again-thanks so much for the replys!
I appreciate the information. I am pleased with the few cuts I have made at this point and am becoming more confident with the saw and box. I am also very glad to hear that others out there at least started out with these same simple tools.
Oh yes, Mack, honey- "rustic" is my middle name. But even if it wasn't I do have a very good homemade miter box, a sharp saw, and I will gain the skill to use them.
Thanks again- chances are the doors will turn out better than I expected thanks ya'lls advice!
Jenny
Dear Jenny,
Hi! The above threads should develop structually sound cabinet doors. Many of us make a mock up of the furniture we build, as you plan to do also. Regarding the grain flow, your stiles or sides would run vertically for the doors and your rails, the tops and bottoms, run horizontally for improved strength.
I used a handsaw and miter box starting out, actually for a long time, before obtaining power equipment. I cut closely to my "measure twice, cut once" markings for miters, then after dry-fittng the parts, fine tune the cuts. With handsaws, I would cut (at least score) each side before cutting through the material to prevent tearout.
If you plan to use splines to strenghten your doors, the spline should be in the middle one-third of the corners, made of the same wood for less pronounciation, or another hardwood for a contrasting appeal.
Best of luck. Enjoy.
Turbo
When I built the shed dormer on my current house, 18+ years ago, I did not have a power compound miter saw. 12 to 15K into the project I really was a dumb@ss for not spending the $150 to $300 before I started. Since the table saw was in the detached garage and I had about 300 feet of baseboards to do, I built two miter boxes with the table saw out of 2x6 framing lumber. I have to grit my teeth to say they served thier purpose before they became firewood. I don't even want to think about all the time I wasted. I still use the backsaw now and then.
And to think of all the 2x4's,6's and 8's I cut with the skill saw. Doh!
Question? How do you type out Tim Allen's sound? Oho?
Enjoy, Roy
After reading all the threads above, I have a suggestion concerning the glue up process. Ensure that the panels are not glued into the frames, and that they are left free to float. This will help in preventing them from splitting. Also keep the panels as flat as possible so they wont twist, and check to make sure that they are square during the initial clamping. You can do this by lying weights on top of the doors, and keep them square by using band clamps to ensure even clamp pressure around the entire perimeter of the frames.
Work safely!
Butch
Hi Jenny,
Agree with the comments on the mitre not being the first-choice jont for a door, if you want a slightly stronger approach and still want the appearance of a mitre without overly complicating things you could consider a mitred half-lap or corner bridle (see pic). This can be pinned from the back of the frame without being visible on the face, but needs to be cut with attention to accuracy.
Anyway (back to answering your question), the reason I was posting was to mention the simple trick to hand sawing mitres perfectly true, used a lot in turning for making segmented blanks. It did not appear to be posted as yet.
Cut your mitre first, with components about 4mm over-length.
Then, assemble your mitre without glue on the bench, with a sacrificial piece of panel (eg 4mm ply) under it, clamp it firmly into position and then locate your saw (preferably fine-toothed) into the original joint and cut down the joint again, whatever happens on one side of the kerf will be mirrored on the other side and you have a near-perfectly fitting joint.
Always make your door 1-2mm oversize, by the way, and plane it down to fit the gap. It's hit and miss aiming to make a door to perfect dimensions off the saw.
Regarding your question on how to ensure you don't cut the wrong way, two suggestions, one is to mark the outside face of your frame and hold it against the back of the mitre box; the other is to mark out your waste clearly before you start to cut.
Regarding your question on grain, the order I would cut these in is: bottom rail, right hand stile, top rail, left hand stile. By doing things this way, you are essentially cutting out a V-notch from the timber to allow it to 'bend' around the corner, and the grain flow is maintained (ie: meets at each joint). The obvious exception to this is the joint formed between the first and last cut, which would be at the bottom left corner of the frame, where it would be least visible. (in saying this, I am assuming left hand hinging, reverse this if you're hinging right hand).
Hope that this makes sense.
Cheers, eddie
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