Help with wood type/grain identification
Chezaugie
| Posted in General Discussion on
I recently had a kitchen fire which damaged some of the cabinets. I am looking for help to identify the wood of the cabinets and type of stain I can use to refinish. See attached photos.
Thank you!
Replies
The wood looks like ash, going by the grain structure.
Ash, being light and ready to absorb stains, is often coloured, especially with a brown (rather then red or yellow hues) to emulate old oak darkened with age.
I don't know what dyes or stains are available in the US, but in the UK that colour would be available in various spirit dyes from the likes of Liberon or Chestnut as "mid-oak" or "walnut".
If they're commercial kitchen cabinets, the finish on top of the dye or stain is likely to be some sort of polyurethane film coat.
Lataxe
Chezaugie, I'm sorry that you had a fire. Hopefully it was only property damage.
It is always difficult to identify wood from photos especially when stained. Given the grain pattern my guess would be oak (probably red oak) because of its pervasive use in cabinets. If not red oak, perhaps white oak or ash.
I don't use stain so I'll leave that part for others to answer.
Sorry about the fire. It definitely looks like red oak to me, but it could possibly be ash. I don't believe it's white oak.
As far as color of stain, it's pretty much impossible to match that based on a photo that you took and posted. Someone (you?) will have to make some red oak samples from various oil-based stain products available to you that look close. Just be sure to take the samples all the way through finishing, including the top coats. If it were me, I'd try an oil-based stain and topcoat it with many coats of wipe-on polyurethane.
Alternatively, you could take it to a paint store (Sherwin-Williams or the like) and ask them to match the stain - that's probably your best bet, I did it once and the match was great.
Good luck.
Most likely red oak. I'd start the testing with Minwax "provincial". Buy a couple of cans of lighter & darker, warmer & cooler on the color chart. Buy all the lumber in advance so you can test on it.
Pick up a bunch of cheap eyedroppers and plastic shot glasses. Use small amounts of stain, stir constantly, and take careful notes on the ratios. Aim for something a little cooler than the cabinets, the topcoat will warm it up slightly if you use an oil-based poly.
I agree with the majority here, at least thus far, in saying it’s most likely to be red oak that we’re looking at in your photos. That said, I think the more important point to be made is that if you need to make repairs that involve replacing panels, doors, or what have you, I think that making them of red oak and experimenting with stains and finishes as has already been suggested is the way to go. The grain pattern will suit, and it’ll be primarily a matter of obtaining an adequate color/sheen match.
If you’re absolutely in need of a definite wood identification, I’d suggest taking down one of the lesser-used/out of the waydoors and taping off/covering all but a small portion of the inside, perhaps a portion of hinge-side stile, and then stripping that small area down to bare wood, probably even to the point of using a few thin-shaving passes of a plane to get to untainted wood. That will give whoever looks at it the best chance of identifying the wood to as specific a level as possible. The stripped area will of course require refinishing, but it’ll generally be out-of-sight, out-of-mind, even if the match isn’t perfect.
Another idea if you’re having to do some restorative work on some of the cabinets and don’t want immediately adjacent juxtaposition of a potential color mismatch: don’t. That is, don’t place them immediately adjacent, if possible. A creative approach with some sort of break between the potentially mismatched cabinets—say a narrow pan-storage area over an equally narrow “broom closet” or such. (This sounds perhaps kinda silly, but I hope it conveys the general idea adequately.) This could be built out slightly and painted as if room trim, providing an interruption between the areas of concern that can do wonders for disguising a slight color mismatch.
Regardless of all else, I hope that the kitchen fire injured no one, and the damage is (relatively) minor, though, like surgical operations, the only “minor” kitchen fire is one somebody else gets. Blessings to you and your family, and I hope all turns out well.
I have to go with ash. The grain ridges aren't pronounced enough to be oak. And, unless you could afford the cost differential, ash makes more sense. The builder would've used the cheaper wood, hence, ash.
My suggestion is to go to your local Sherwin Williams and ask if they have a "stain matching guy".
Other than that its trial and error, and errors, and errors.......and pints and pints of stain - BTDT!!
A Kitchen Remodeler for 40+ years votes for Red Oak. I know of no commercial cabinet manufacturer using Ash and it definitely isn't White Oak. Red Oak was used in 60+% of all cabinets sold in the US between 1980 and 2010 especially with new home builders who like cheap options. Now you can't give it away.
Before doing a lot of sanding verify that those raised center panels are actually solid wood, my first impression is they are, but many are veneer over particleboard. To check this there should be similar grain patterns and board widths on both the inside and outside faces.
What Esch said.
You're just going to have to try a bunch of stains to match what's there. It's always a trial and error proposition.
I don't think you will get that color density with a wipe-on oil based stain. It will bounce off the hard areas of the oak, and mostly stay in the open pores. I have gone almost completely to alcohol based dyes (Trans-Tint). They give a uniform color to the wood. Then, if you want more contrast, you can use an oil based stain over that, to darken the pores. I'm finishing up a small red oak piece now, using dye and a top coat that combines tung oil and polyurethane -- first time I've tried it, as I usually use Waterlox Original.
Alcohol based dyes are not likely to be colorfast enough for most kitchen cabinets which tend to get exposed to a lot of sunlight in most kitchens. Obviously topping it with an oil based stain will help but alcohol based dyes are notorious for fading in sunlight.
Based upon Esch's comments above in the change in consumer cabinet preferences and the possibility of veneer panels, an alternative to trying to match the stain might be to just paint the cabinets a uniform color.
The OP never said how many cabinets were damaged, if they were just smoke damaged, etc. If it's just a few cabinets, another option, perhaps less severe than painting all the cabinets, would be to just replace the raised panels in the few damaged doors with glass (clear, frosted, antiqued, smoked, etc.) by routing out the panels from the back. If there are other doors of the same size, you could even exchange those that were fire damaged with other doors, if you didn't want glass doors in the location of the damage. You could also add mullions to the glass to dress it up a bit. By getting rid of the damaged panels, you would only have to match the rails and stiles, and given the smaller area involved, the match would not have to be as perfect.
Since most kitchen fires are in the area of the cook surface, I'm not sure it is a great place for glass doors. Glass doors near a cooking area tend to need constant cleaning from accumulated grease and minerals build up from boiling water and general cooking activities. It's just not an area I recommend for glass doors.
That's why I posted "If there are other doors of the same size, you could even exchange those that were fire damaged with other doors, if you didn't want glass doors in the location of the damage" above.
Stain Matching.....a tough one since ambient light and thermal variances change the underlying color of the wood and the finish over the stain. The stain color is usually a constant over time, but the wood and the finish are not. Keep this in mind unless you intend to strip and refinish all of the cabinets. Unfortunately, and sadly, you'll know if you got it right in a year or so. Find a staining expert in your area for advice. A furniture restorer is a good source. As for wood species - Red Oak is my guess. Alternatively, you could paint them and be done with the stain matching issue all together. Did I just say that?😁
If you want to know for sure what wood you have, find a local sawmill in your area and take a door to them and they will tell you. If you can't find a sawmill a woodworking store or hardwood dealer probable can help.
If you only have a couple of doors that really need refinishing and you want a good match, try to find a professional finisher an ask what they would charge to give you a near exact match. You may be able to clean up doors that aren't blistered so you don't have so many to refinish. I have had poor luck at best with Sherwin Williams. More often than not I get some kid that doesn't know as much as I do and gives everyone the same answer for every question. I have had better luck with a woodworking store or mom and pop paint store but beware of BSrs there too. For sure if you do your own finishing, test any method anyone gives you on the same kind wood that you will be putting the final finish on before you try it on a real piece.
I was a build and remodeling contractor for twenty years and fire jobs were always a heart breaker. Go slow and look at all your options. More things than you might imagine can be cleaned if you get the right cleaning material. Do some research. If you have a lot of damage that will need to be refinished you might want to consider replacing or at least refinishing all of it so it all looks the same in the end. Good luck and don't get overwhelmed if you have a lot of damage.
For the photo, my money would be on red oak.
I also second taking it to Sherwin Williams (or your paint store of choice) and have them match the stain. It’s very difficult to match off the shelf as stained oak does change over time.
Find some end grain. Make a clean cut in an inconspicuous place by shaving a little wood off with a razor blade. If wide rays are visible, it is oak. Wide rays can also be seen on a tangential face and as ray fleck on a radial face. Most of your picture were tangential, but I couldn't see enough detail. For most people, however, the end grain is a sure bet.
I agree, it does not look like white oak. Here again, the end grain is a quick way to tell. The pores of ash and red oak will be open. White oak pores are plugged with tyloses.
Hoadley's book "Identifying Wood" describes all this.
That's red oak.
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https://www.amazon.com/Identifying-Wood-Accurate-Results-Simple/dp/0942391047
Hoadley, "Identifying Wood" is perfect for woodworkers. He groups woods by appearance rather than using a dichotomous key. His photos are excellent. He focusses on the hand lens features rather than the microscopic. His other book is "Understanding Wood" is really good too.
The "Textbook of Wood Technology" is good too, but too technical for most folks.
Just my opinion and everyone will have a different one but he is where I would send you.
(1) wood-database.com They have tons of easy to use and under stand information.
(2) Woodcraft Magazine has a page in every issue called WoodSense. It gives a good thumb nail outline, for a single species, of most everything a woodworker would want to know about that wood species. I think past issues are open to anyone.
(3) Understanding Wood by R. Bruce Hoadley is considered by a lot of people to be the definitive book on wood. It gets really deep and technical and might be what my niece would refer to as "TMI" too much information. I don't think it's necessary to fully understand every line in the book to get a lot out of it but I have talked with people that thought it was much deeper than most woodworker need. That said I got a lot out of it.
I think anyone of those sources will help you a lot. Good luck, be safe and enjoy your woodworking journey.
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