“[Modern] glues seal the wood surface and prevent stains and finishes from penetrating evenly. They are difficult to sand and remove from the surface when set.” –from an article on hide glue at http://home.pacbell.net/ebeniste/gluearticle.htm
The author implies that hide glue doesn’t have these problems, but I didn’t read any mention of hide glue squeeze-out and if it prevents even staining. Does it?
I need a *tiny* amount–about a tablespoon–of hide glue in granule form. Any strength will do, as this isn’t for woodworking; it’s to recreate a metalworking technique used by ancient Etruscans.
Is there an online retailer who sells the granules in small quantities? Or, I could send one of you $5 for a spoonful from your own workshop.
Janet
Replies
Janet,
Knox Gelatin, which you will find in most in supermarkets in the Jello dessert section is, in fact, just refined hide glue. A small box with four packets has about a tablespoon of granules. All of you Jello fans probably didn't want to know that.
The old LePages glue that used to be common in schools, if it is still available is also just hide glue.
I'm also a metal worker, I'm curious about the glue's use for that, could you volunteer a few details and perhaps a source for more information?
Hope this helps,
John W.
Didn't know about the gelatin trick but guess I should've guessed...will test it sometime.
Hide glue is the only glue to use for chair joints...even today..only glue in existence that dissolves it's own residue...all those common round tenons come loose eventually and repairs are a breeze...unless the joint was contaminated by some modern glue....just squirt more hot glue in and clamp.
But it has to be applied at 120 degrees to work properly...and I'm sure that applies to gelatin, too.
Send your address to [email protected]. I'll send you a bit.
Lee
John; From her post I'd surmise that Janet is working on granulation technique. A very demanding sort of work. Dilute quantities of gum arabic or hide glues were used as fixatives and fluxes for the granules which were then welded to the surfaces via very skillfully controlled heating. Children employed to set the granules in place were said to suffer severe vision damage at early ages from working long hours with the extremely tiny beads of silver and gold.
Very impressive, my young padawan.
Clay is correct; the hide glue is for granulation, a way of attaching tiny spheres of gold without using solder. No visible means of support! Some examples:
http://www.rocksmyth.com/jeansclass2/granulation.htm
(I'll be working in silver, though.)
The Etruscans produced granulated jewelry, but tastes changed and the technique was forgotten. Later jewelers had to rediscover how to attach metal to metal without solder--and without melting. It's a process called eutectic soldering, and it requires heating the metal in an oyxgen-poor atmosphere. The hide glue uses up oxygen when the piece is fired.
To be honest, granulation is too ornate for my taste, but I got hooked by the mystery of the "lost formula" and the difficulty of the technique.
Janet
I agree that the ancient examples of granulation were overly ornate even though technically impressive. Some modern examples though are just stunning. I don't think it's a way to make a quick buck given the difficulty level and the need for lots of fine handwork (all at risk in the final heating ... tremble in your hearts oh ye mighty smiths). I am so pleased to be called young (at 52)! You must have divined my hearts true spirit (forever young). I assume that you are familiar with the work of John Paul Miller? Gum arabic which is commonly used for granulation work is available at art suppliers in their watercolor sections as a solution. That may be a convenient source for you. I assume that you will be using fine silver because sterling is more prone to oxidation? I have made some welded chains in silver (sterling) which calls for some skillful torch work. I suggest that you do a few practice pieces because it will really help to have the feel of the right moment fresh when doing a complex piece with lots of time invested in it.
I'm using fine silver, but not because of the oxidation. The eutectic is about 780 deg C and the melting points of fine silver and sterling are 960 and 893. Fine silver allows for a greater margin of error, in case the piece gets heated above the eutectic.
Janet
As far as your question about stain and hide glue. Regular hot hide glue will accept some dye stains but the mark will still be visiable because the glue still prevents some absorbsion. It must not be liquid hide glue and it must be dye stain.
Howie, are you saying that dye won't take as well where squeeze-out was removed? I keep reading that hide glue is reversible, and was wondering if all traces of squeeze-out can be eliminated.
janet
If you completely removed the squeezeout, any pigment or dye stain will work fine. It depends when you remove the squeezeout as to the method you use. In spite of what many say, I have been removing squeezeout form water based adhesives using a wet sponge and/or toothbrush followed by wiping with a dry rag. You need to keep cleaning out your rag. Every pro woodworker I have ever worked with used a sponge.
Next, is letting the squeezeout partially harden and then scraping off with a dull putty knife or a plastic scraper. Then let the glueline fully harden and scrape, plane or sand the joint. Proper sanding will remove all traces of the glue.
Another choice is to let the squeezeout get fully hard and then scrape it off. The problem with this is that you frequently remove some of the wood in the glueline. This makes for a ragged and very noticable glue line.
Finally, wet a rag with mineral spirits and wipe down the project. This will preview the color of the wood, remove residual sanding dust (I stay away from tack rags) and, most importantly, it will highlight any areas where glue has not been completely cleaned up. MS will not leave any residue when it evaporates.
There is an article in a recent Fine Woodworking by Jeff Jewitt where he deals very well with this subject.
Let me also take this opportunity to tell you that I worked with an oldtimer thirty or so years ago who rapped my hand for using my finger to spread glue. His point was that many glue spots come from glue transferred from fingers. He was right--I never did it again and I tell my students not to do it either. Keep your hands clean.
An age old method is to apply a glue size to a piece before finishing - especially on end grain. A glue size is about 10 parts warm water and one part hide glue.
I just had a hide glue fiasco. I'd never used it before. When I mixed the glue per the instructions it was a crystaline blob and not soluabilized at all. So I added a little water and heated to 140 F. It ended up a shade thinner than the Franklin premixed stuff. I used it when the shop was about 55 degrees. All the joints failed.
I think the shop was too cold and the the glue too thin .Does that seem correct?
Frank
Here,
The good news is you can wash it off and do it again. Heat is critical.
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=furniture&file=articles_150.shtml
Edited 10/31/2003 7:39:06 PM ET by Bob
That seems kinda odd, Frank. Are you sure reading the instructions was a good idea?
I never reheat hide glue more than 3 times, I let it become blobby in the pot as it absorbs water without heat for a few hours or overnight.
Here's a test for whether it's still good glue, it works for the liquid or hot hide glues. Place a dab beteen your index finger and thumb. Separate the two digits and keep doing so, kinda like you're playing with a booger. As the glue sets it will become stringy. If it fails to become stringy wash your hands and contact the CDC.
Nah, you can skip the CDC step.
Oh, I'd say temp was the culprit.
Lee
Edited 10/31/2003 8:16:45 PM ET by Lee_Grindinger
Lee,
I shall perform the booger manouver. As the father of six year old boy I should be able to figure this out.
We have a warm spell comming up here in Virginia. I'll give it another try.
Frank
Biscardi,
Your problem with the hide glue was not from it being to thin, but as you guessed , from the low temperature. There are two ways to avoid this problem in the future. One is to add urea which will slow the gel time. The addition of urea will only go so far in offsetting the effects of temperature, so I don’t rely on it too heavily. The other is to heat the wood in some way. I have used several methods to accomplish this. One is a heat lamp like they use to keep fries warm, another, is one of those cheap radiant heaters that heat objects and not the air. I have even put small items in the oven at very low temperature ( which has made me decidedly unpopular, in certain quarters ). Of course you must be careful in applying heat to the piece, because of the potential for warping. Even with heating and urea, hot hide glue is not a good choice for complicated assemblies. I use the liquid hide glue under these circumstances. Liquid hide glue gets a bad rap sometimes, but in my experience as long as it is fresh and you give it sufficient time to cure, it will perform flawlessly. I have been using the Old Brown glue made by W. Patrick Edwards, which is a liquid hide glue, and I have found it to be an excellent glue. As for mixing the glue, I just pour on enough water to cover the dry granules, let that sit for a half hour and heat. When the glue has melted it will most likely be too thick, so I add water until the glue runs off the brush in a stream. Of course as the glue sits in the pot it will loose moisture and you’ll have to add water to maintain this consistency. I use a fairly thin mixture when hammer veneering and even at that dilution the bond is impressively strong. Don’t get discouraged with hide glue, it is an extremely versatile and durable glue.
Rob Millard
Rob,
Thanks or your reply. I have done a couple of projects with liquid hide glue without problems also. Maybe I should reserve the glue pot for warmer weather.
Thanks
FB
Another use for hide glue is "glue chipping" on glass, to produce the look of etching.
A very strong preparation of hide glue is applied to a sheet of glass. The glue contracts as it cools until sections of it pop free--holding shards that have been literally ripped from the surface of the glass sheet. Full protective gear is a must, as the shards fly in every direction.
Chipping-quality glue is expensive--$9/pound at http://www.bjorn.net, with a five-pound minimum order--so that's a project for another time.
Janet
Terrific! Thanks.
Might try it for replicating the etched-glass door lights in 1920's cruisers.
DW - I did some glass-chipping about 20 yrs ago to replace some panels in a dividing door in a grand old 1880's house. It's a devilish process to control accurately, so many variables! But I'm not sure what you mean about 'protective gear' - the actual chipping is supposed to take place in a confined area - i.e. your oven. You pour the melted glue over the glass (having masked off any bits you don't want chipped) and dry it for a day or two, which gets the moisture content down to whatever (like air-drying wood). At this point, there may be a slight bow in the glass, but the glue should be intact. Then you put it in an oven at a low setting, and the fireworks really start. Sometimes, a few flakes don't quite separate in the oven (they are truly scary-sharp) and all those ultra-thin shards of glass and glue have to be gotten out of the oven - this is where a good pair of leather gloves comes in handy. I put the pieces on a large sheet of newspaper, but they do fly about when things start popping in there. It's best to choose a time for this step when your significant-other is out of the house for several hours, unless they are enthusiastic collaborators.....
The variables are things like the piece of glass itself, the water/glue ratio of your original mix, and the speeds of initial and secondary drying. I needed 3 panes, and it took about 4 tries to get results that matched the originals. The greatest variation was in the size of the frond-like bits that tear off the surface - they ranged from very fine to large, deeper flakes. The originals were a bit variable, when I looked at them more closely, and now I know why!
Cheers, IW
Did you find a way to control the chip size, or just repeat until you got lucky?
In the account I read, the glue was applied and the whole thing set out to dry in the southern California sun. No oven walls to catch the flying shards! A face shield and heavy clothing (in that hot sun!) to cover neck and limbs was necessary--and I can't imagine trying to clean and re-use clothing that has glass bits in it.
Did all of the glue peel off, or did you have to help it along?
Janet
DW - Pretty much all of the glue came away on the most successful ones, and none at all on a couple. I think they dried too slowly, and I didn't have the oven temperature quite right, so didn't get the quick-dry and stresses it requires, I guess. I was doing this in South-West Ontaio, where the humidity can be a little higher than in California!
To uncle Dunc - no, I did not find how to control the chip size. It probably has a lot to do with how thick the glue layer is when it dries. The panes I was putting the pattern on were about 8" square, so I cut what I needed from scraps from several old broken windows, and no doubt some of the variability came from that source. I also played with the glue/water ratio a bit, too, because you need a brew that will spread quickly and evenly, but not too liquid, or the layer of glue ends up too thin. At the time, I had a lot on my plate, so as soon as I got close enough to the original, I quit from the glass-chipping business, thinking I may come back to it someday and figure it out a bit better. I may yet do that, but it is still way down the priority-list at this point. It certainly gives a decorative effect which is unique - maybe the techique will enjoy a re-incarnation when the right people rediscover it - it's not been used in any serious way for about a hundred years.
I bought the glue from a small place that supplied all manner of strange materials for glass projects (probably long-since defunct, even if I could remember the name) and it came with some very vague instructions which indicated the process was not easy to master. I've also long-since chucked-out the rest of the glue, since I had no further use for it, and I read (in an old FWW article, I'm pretty sure) that the glass-chipping glue is actually weaker than regular w'working hide glue. (!?)
If you want to try it, you can be sure of getting some interesting results!
Cheers, IW
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