Replies

1. 
   Danford_C._Jennings | Jan 12, 2002 07:29am | #1

   *
   Jerry,

   i After it is mixed then what?
   You use it.
   i How long will it keep without hardening?
   Depends.
   i How does one keep it ready to use,etc., etc.
   Also depends.

   Seriously though, Jerry, a lot does depend on the type of hide glue you are talking about and the "form" in which you get it. In cake form it has to be broken up then soaked for about 12 hours or so before heating. In beads or flakes, less soaking time is required. There are also liquid forms of hide glue.

   Best thing to do is get some and read the directions that comes with it. I believe Garrett Wade or Constintines sells electric glue pots, I'm sure there are others too. Or just use an old double boiler pan. Though the electric glue pots are more convenient, doubt your wife would appreciate you using the kitchen for making hide glue in.

   In general, the pot should be kept at about 150° F and no more than that. I don't have experience with liquid hide glues, I use flakes, I only know that pot temps are a lot lower. Set up times vary according to shop temperatures but, I can say it is pretty fast; 5-15 minutes. Pot life is long, there were times I've kept the pot going for as long as a week, loosely covered.

   Because of it's tacking properties, little clamping pressure is needed, it literally "sucks" the glued pieces together as it begins to cure in the first few minutes. Typically, total cure time is around 12 hours or so.

   About the only time I use hide glue is for veneer or inlay work. FWIW.

   Dano

1. 
   Rob_Millard | Jan 12, 2002 05:06pm | #2

   *I use hide glue everyday, and while it is a controversial subject, I will say without hesitation, it’s the best glue available (if you over look the smell).I have used the double boiler method, but the electric glue pot while not cheap is worth every penny. I buy the glue in 5 pound bags from Olde Mill Cabinet shop since they have by far the best price I’ve seen. I mix my glue in empty soup cans, and place these is in the water filled glue pot, this way I can throw the can out and I don’t have to clean up the pot. I pour in some glue than add water until the glue is just covered (weighing glue and the water is ridiculous). Let it soak for an hour, and heat it up, add water until it runs off the brush in a steady stream. I add a little white vinegar, to it since it seems to help it grab. I will keep the glue for a couple of days but if I need it last longer I put it in the refrigerator. Glue is cheap, so it is better to get rid of it, than risk a failure. In contrast to Danford’s experience, I’ve not seen hide glue take anywhere near 5-15 Min to set. Hide glue will gel in less than a minute unless urea is added to it, to slow the gel time. This quick set time, is both a curse and a blessing. The glue will be useless, if is gels before the surfaces are brought into contact. If you have trouble with glue ups, using convential glues, you will hate hide glue, because it gives you very little time to fool around. I use liquid hide glue for complicated glue ups, although the addition of urea will cause hot hide glue to act more or less like the liquid hide glue. Veneering is where I think hide glue really shines. I don’t own a veneer press, and I don’t need one. I can hammer veneer something in far less time, than can be done in a press, and see what I’m doing to boot. The articles I’ve seen on hammer veneering tell you to slap glue on both faces, this is a mess, and is why few people ever try it more than once. I dampen the face of the veneer to keep it from curling, and use a hammer with a UHMW blade. Nothing sticks to UHMW plastic, and it glides easily. When I’m done there is little or no glue to clean off the face.

1. 
   Sgian_Dubh | Jan 13, 2002 02:31pm | #3

   *Hot hide glue does set up very quickly, and you need to get cramps on in a hurry. If I know I can't apply the glue and get the cramps on in less than 5-10 minutes I'll often use the liquid hide glue instead to give me more time. in use I aim to apply glue to one or two tenons and one or two mortises in a frame, push these together as firmly and as closely as possible, insert any panel, then glue the other two mortises and tenons, assemble, and apply the cramps, followed by a bit of sighting for winding, and checking for diagonals. Finally I use a warm damp rag to wipe off the squeeze out.With this particular type of glue, i.e., the hot hide type, I think problems can come from applying the stuff to all the joints in a framework in one go which leaves exposed glue hanging around until you get ready for assembly. It can gel off quickly, especially if the air and timber are cold, and a lot of the strength is gone once it's gelled. Many advise warming the timber prior to applying the glue, and it also follows that a cold workshop is disadvantageous too. If you follow what I said earlier you get the glued parts together as close as possible as fast as possible. Hot hide glue seems to stand a bit of adjustment and additional cramping pressure later, perhaps even for up to 10-20 minutes in the right circumstances, i.e., hot and humid. In fact it's often advised that you should go back and add an 1/8 of a turn to the cramps about 15 minutes after you've checked everything is just so to compensate for the glue sucking itself into the timber, but I'm not sure about that.Solid timber edge joinery is interesting because hot hide glue has a lot of initial grab, or suck, and you can often get panels together with no cramps, the famous 'rub' joint. This initial grab or suck is, in my opinion, a good reason to work with the glues' characteristics, and explains why I think it's probably best to glue one mortise, and one tenon, then assemble tightly, then move on to the next mortice, and next tenon, and so on. It's not always easy to plan, but you can even assemble a frame in two or more parts which allows you time. For instance, if you have four tenoned rails into two stiles an alternative strategy to consider might be to glue, assemble and cramp up the four rails into the first stile individually. 12 hours or so later insert the three panels, zip around slapping on the glue and whack the other stile on. It's always handy to have an extra pair of hands around at assembly time too. slainte, RJ