Replies

1. 
   Wateren | Jun 30, 2003 07:09pm | #1

   Looks like nearly anything will do - see here

   http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-knots&msg=12820.1

   Cheers, Chris

2. 
   Napie | Jun 30, 2003 10:59pm | #2

   Read the section on hide glue in Tage Frid's joinery book (Taunton), it is the best, period.

1. 
   EBrandt | Jun 30, 2003 11:56pm | #3

   Napie,

   Thanks, I'll check it out. What is the actual title of the book. The only one I see on Amazon that is still in print is

   Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking 1&2: A Step-By-Step Guidebook to Essential Woodworking Technique

   Is that the one, or are you talking about a different book of his?

   If its a short section, any chance you can scan it and email it to me, if you have the capabilities.

   Thanks,

   E.

1. 
   Napie | Jul 01, 2003 12:10am | #4

   That is the one.  They combined the first two into one volume.  BUY IT! It will be the greatest tool in your shop.  I learned more from this very practical guide than from all my other WW books together.  Tage Frid is a master at both doing and teaching.

3. 
   ron61 | Jul 01, 2003 01:10am | #5

   I have been thinking about getting into then Hot Hide glue myself. Maybe someone can tell us about it.

   You know after you get the pot the glue would be about the same $ as the modern wood glue.

   If all you had to do is heat it back up and It would keep for a long time I think that would be the way to go.

   Draw back would be open time before it sets - at times it would be handy to get a fast set.

   Maybe someone will respond

   Thanks 

1. 
   Napie | Jul 01, 2003 05:20pm | #12

   "Draw back would be open time before it sets - at times it would be handy to get a fast set."

   The opposite is true, it sets very fast, that's why it works so well for a rubbed joint.

1. 
   ron61 | Jul 02, 2003 01:24am | #13

   What?????

1. 
   Napie | Jul 02, 2003 05:42pm | #14

   From your earlier post, you indicated that hide glue has a long open time, the opposite is true, it sets very fast, hence its use in rubbed joints that do not need clamping.

1. 
   forestgirl | Jul 02, 2003 08:51pm | #15

   Specifically hot hide glue sets very fast.  Liquid hide glue gels in a half-hour or so, but doesn't cure for many days.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   Napie | Jul 02, 2003 09:38pm | #16

   True, I never had much use for the bottled hide glue, just didn't see the point....

3. 
   ron61 | Jul 03, 2003 12:42am | #17

   Maybe I wasn't clear I thought I indicated it set fast- but I have no experience using it in wood working.

   I think I will give it a try I like traditional things- now If I could just stop using power tools

4. 
   Napie | Jul 03, 2003 03:58pm | #19

   Stop using power tools????  When I started WW years ago, all I had was a drill motor and a skill saw.  Let me tell you, there is little romance in hand planning rough hard woods to size.  I LOVE my Unisaw, jointer/planer, shaper, etc. I use a router to rough out my "hand cut" dovetails.  The skill is in the user, not the tools and the end product is what matters, that is also why I use sheet goods in my "fine woodwork", it's better.

4. 
   stancalow | Jul 01, 2003 01:22am | #6

   Eric

   Compromise?  Liquid Hide Glue

   Just recreational, so no expertise here, but I started using the Liquid Hide Glue for most projects, and won't go back to yellow/white glue unless there is a reason.   The advantages of both without the trouble.  I have mostly been doing small projects and repairs to old furniture, so haven't needed superstrength glue.   On a bigger project, I have enough trouble juggling clamps, workpieces and fixtures without worrying about a boiling pot of glue. 

   Stan

1. 
   lwilliams | Jul 03, 2003 04:24pm | #20

   One of the easiest to use liquid hide glues is Old Brown Glue from Patrick Edwards. The stuff you'll likely find on a hardware store shelf should be avoided. Old Brown Glue has all the features of hide glue, which it is, and an extended set time. Pat is a pretty well known conservator, woodworker, teacher and author who operates a school on French veneering. The single drawback to Old Brown Glue is its shelf-life of six months.

   here's a link: http://www.woodcentral.com/emporium/e_edwards.htm

5. 
   Westchester | Jul 01, 2003 01:57am | #7

   Hey Eric,

   You can build accurate repros using yellow glue.  I would suggest it's easier to use yellow glue  in all phases of woodworking with the exception of veneering .  Any one viewing your work is not asking what kind of glue was used.  Hot glue has benefits but more for the restorer then the furniture maker.  One exception may be less difficultly hiding glue stains.  Learn about hide glue and use it but in the long run I'm sure you'll prefer yellow to hide glue for furniture building.

   Good Luck

   SA

6. 
   ron61 | Jul 01, 2003 01:58am | #8

   I found somethings you might want to read

   http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/usinghideglue.pdf

   http://www.wood-workers.com/users/williams/gluepots/

   http://www.milligan1868.com/flowchart.html

   http://www.player-care.com/hideq-a2.html

   http://www.deller.com/newpage8.htm

   
   

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7. 
   RMillard | Jul 01, 2003 02:25am | #9

   Hide glue will last several days, longer if kept in a refrigerator, but in no case will I keep it longer than a week. Glue is very cheap, so this is no place to be conservative

   I am a real cheap skate, but my glue pot was worth every penny. I started with a double boiler, but it used a lot of electricity ( since I kept it on for hours at a time), and I had to keep checking the water level, plus I think it had a tendency to overheat the glue, which is never good.

   I mix my glue in small cans ( like pineapples come in) this way I can place them in the glue pot with just water in the pot, making clean up easy, just throw the can out. It also allows me to switch quickly between both straight glue and glue with a gel depressant .

   The urea slows down the gel time of hide glue, which gels very quickly, less than a minute, in most cases. Once the glue has gelled, it has no adhesive properties at all. Adding the urea, can give you up to 2-3 minutes, depending on shop conditions. As you can see even this is very quick compared to PVA glues. If you have trouble with glue ups ( and I sure did/do), hot hide glue is a real headache. I have read that you can add up to 30% of urea, but I have never even approached that ratio.

   My opinion is that, the reason many antiques survive is because they were assembled with hide glue. All joints will at some point fail, but joints assembled with hide glue are quite easy to repair. The same can not be said of many of today’s hi-tech glues, or even PVA glues. No other glue has a track record close to that of hide glue.

   Some people give the liquid hide glue a bad rap, but for me it has preformed flawlessly. The only thing to watch out for is it must be fresh. While the bottles are dated, I would rather let the glue tell me if it is any good. You can tell if the glue is good, if it flows freely, as opposed to being like rubber, and appears light in color. Don’t buy it from your local home center, instead get it from a mail order company with high volume sales, insuring that it will be fresh. I use liquid hide glue for complicated assemblies like carcass dovetails, and sideboards ( by far the most difficult pieces of furniture to assemble).

1. 
   EBrandt | Jul 01, 2003 04:25pm | #11

   Thanks to all who replied. I knew I could count on you guys to fill me in on the details.

   Much, much appreciated,

   E.

8. 
   forestgirl | Jul 01, 2003 06:45am | #10

   Michael Dresdner has an article in the current Woodworker's Journal on using hide glue, how it works, how liquid differs from hot, etc.  It's not the definitive how-to guide on hide glue probably, but I found it very helpful with some decision-making about certain glue-ups.

   Turns out that hide glue comes in different "gram strengths" which affect how fast it sets up/gels.  He states that it's available from 80 to 512, with the lower gram strenths offering longer working time.  What WWers use is generally between "192 or 251."  Another interesting note -- there is only one company in N. America that actually makes hide glue, Milligan and Higgins (http://www.milligan1868.com) . 

   The hot glue variety is of interest to me for quickly gluing up mitered face frame-type things, like a simple picture frame, as the joints could just be rubbed together and they would set real quick.  Dresdner's information (contrary to the post above) indicates that store-bought liquid hide glue takes a half-hour or longer to gel, and I can vouch for this.  There really isn't a huge time-crunch when using the liquid stuff.  One disadvantage of liquid hide glue over PVAs is that the LHG can take a long time (like a few days) to fully cure -- I was totally mystified by this when using it a few weeks ago.

   Dresdner lists a number of advantages that hide glue has over our more modern glues.  The article was very interesting!

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

9. 
   imcanadian | Jul 03, 2003 08:52am | #18

   I use some hide glue in reproduction work and mix up a fair quantity, most of which I keep in the freezer.

10. 
    ETG | Jul 03, 2003 05:13pm | #21

    One point nobody raised is that The PVA glues do have "creep" - two pieces of wood freshly glued together can move thanks to the glue interface.  Hide glue doesn't have this problem - it is quite sticky, tenacious.  And its infamous "death grip" when it sets is really true.  I'm slowly moving from using mostly PVA to mostly hide because of the many points made in the previous posts.  I do recommend the electric glue pot - yes it's $95 but well woth it - and the suggestion of mixing the glue in a small food can is excellent!