I think of it as a sales pitch, not a quality of work. “High end” is something a designer or salesman tells someone furnishing a McMansion. It’s a subjective phrase, often determined by price, and not quality.
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I should add. Anyone who produces, what is truly "high-end" products, doesn't need the designation to sell anything. Truly "high-end" products designate themselves as art, and need no sales pitch.
BTW, I don't associate myself with anything worth considering "high-end" designation. Just sharing my opinion.
a "high end" piece... To me has to look pretty and be at least 18 inches off the ground!
I worked for years at a "high-end" retail furniture store. Although a lot of the furniture was very well made, i.e. Stickley and Harden, I believe the high-end name had more to do with the customer service that was provided by the store. High-end to me implies high-cost as well as as high levels of customer service. Not only is the actual product important, but the efforts that the seller does on follow-up in case of problems is what brings the customer back for more.
If you can back up your work and take care of your customers, you can charge more money $$$$!!!!
Hi Metod ,
Well the term High End can be interpreted in many different ways as we are hearing from all . IMO high end means that the materials were top quality and any hardware was the best available and of course all joinery and in general the piece was done in a crisp manner and flawless standards on the finish . Price alone may not be an indicator of quality or high end products . One usually expects to pay more for better and best products so the price thing is what most will use to determine which level a certain product is in . With custom built pieces some of us don't charge enough and I have seen examples of overcharging as well , so prices can vary without reflecting quality in some cases . In the competitive market place 5 shops may bid say $8,000 on a job and 2 may bid $12,000 , that difference may to the client reveal the high end shops but the quality in materials and workmanship should be like night and day between the high and the low . What I tell customers is if they can not see the difference then why pay more for it .
good luck dusty
The term high end is a catch-all that refers to anything that is not low-end (also not defined). There simply is no spectrum along which one can subjectively or objectively place the perception of an object. High-end popsicle sticks? Low-end Bentley?
The term is therefore meaningless, though that will have little effect on the overuse of the phrase.
In the world of small woodshops bidding on jobs, more often than not, the price (high or low) has little to do with a strict relationship to quality (high or low). More often the price is arrived at by a combination of factors that have little to do with a sense of built up, layered quality that runs from concept thru to beyond delivery. Some low bid shops can do excellent quality work, and the obverse is also true.
The low bid, excellent shops go out of business much quicker, while the high bid, low quality shops stay around since they have a (higher) profit margin, and the buyer is often unknowing as to relative quality, or is reluctant to admit to buying low quality at a high price (personal validation).
And the buyer's perception of quality is as undefined and non specific as "high-end." "That's a high quality tater bin," and "That Maloof makes a nice chair" are both exclamations of perceived value, i.e. high-end, but about two very different products.
In my opinion, only the objects that are conceived as quality from concept to beyond execution are worthy of the high end designation. They will be expensive, but for real reasons. These objects will surface, over time, despite clever marketing and fads of the marketplace.
The problem for the individual or the small shop is that life is too short for them to prosper on the strength of their high-end work, necessitating marketing, and the resultant weakening of the term.
Low-end Bentley?
HARDLY!
Hey dusty,
"if they can not see the difference then why pay more for it ."
How can you see the difference between dowels, biscuits, or tenons, in a finished piece? Or 8 way hand tied coil springs covered with horsehair, cotton, and muslin, and ziggers with polyfoam and dacron?
While price alone is not a guarantee of quality, high quality does not, generally, come cheap.
I have a poster in my shop: "We do three kinds of work here; good, fast, and cheap. You may choose any two. If it's good and fast, it will not be cheap. If it's good and cheap, it will not be fast. If it's fast and cheap, it will not be good."
Regards,
Ray
Greetings Ray ,
How can you see or recognize the difference ? IMO part of my job as a craftsmen and business man making a living from what I produce with my two hands and a lot of blood sweat and tears , is to educate my potential clients as to the difference between the methods I use and others that are also available . For instance a frame can be M & T or it can be shot together with corrugated fasteners , and still look cosmetically the same from the face . Full extension ball bearing drawer slides as opposed to cheap euro type slides . Fine grained rift or quarter sawn materials compared to poplar or apple ply or solid stock drawer boxes compared to mdf or melamine dovetails or staples . Until they are educated they may not know what to look for , I would grant you that much . When clients see work of mine the standard of comparison is set . Seldom are my clients shopping for price anymore , rather if I am available to commit to their time line , price often becomes secondary to getting what they want . I am perhaps blessed to have risen to this upper circle of clients . It took many years and lot's of dedication to details , but now I am in a position to select the jobs to go after . I do mostly case work and some furniture here and there , after 25 years or so in my area of S. Oregon reputation and integrity are paramount . Put into perspective if you took a piece of your very best work and we put it next to a piece of my utility grade work , could a difference be seen ? I honestly feel the answer is yes don't you ? Still none of this clearly defines " High End" perhaps as is true with beauty , it is in the eye of the beholder !
your pal dusty
IMHO, high-end is anything that uses expensive materials and/or requires a level of workmanship/art that is unachievable by all but a few.
A very well built cherry desk with standard moldings, raised panels, and hand cut dovetails is not high-end. One made from purple heart with a lavish bit of carvings and burl wood drawer fronts is.
In my own experience, "high end" costs more- Houses, furniture, fixtures, etc- They well be, and often turn out to be, next year's junk, but they sell for more than average today-
Metod... IMHO a high end piece doesn't need a set of paramaters to qualify, it either is or it isn't... either way the piece itself will tell you the first time you lay eyes on it. Typical symptoms will register around 11.3 on the "woah... that's nice" scale (ranges from 0-5)...
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
what qualifies as a "high end" piece?
In no particular order
1) the maker lives and works in the US or Canada (UK, Europe and Australia also count)
2) the maker was paid a real wage for making the piece (i.e. after materials and overheads the maker was "paid" a wage of about $25/hr)
3) flawless finish
4) made of solid wood (OK, in some circumstances I'll accept veneered MDF, but the veneers must be book matched)
5) the piece is not delivered in a flat pack with instructions for self assembly.
6) the eventual owner appreciates the time, effort and care involved in making the piece and is prepared to look after it (i.e. treat it as something to be passed on for a generation or two, not something to be left on the kerb in 10 years time when fashions change)
"I am not interested in 'high end' as a marketing device"
That's exactly what it is.
Where I trained in California, there were/are three acccepted levels of woodworking;
economy,standard, and premium. All designate a corresponding level of joinery and finish. Premium is also known as custom.These levels are set by the CWI (Cal. Woodworking Institute). IMO, all other designations are just marketing hype.
Good luck
This is kinda funny.It's a very squishy term with no real definition, it's a meaningless term too in the sense that it has no clear meaning.I suppose I do high end work but I haven't used that term for years and years. It's a term I dropped since I quit being so full of myself. Perhaps it's just that, a personal identifier, a label people want to attach to themselves.Who would you tell, "I do high end work." Clients? Friends? Peers? Herein lies the purpose of the term. LeeMontanaFest
I erred a little. Upon looking at my old text, Feirer's Cabinetmaking and Millwork, you'll find economy, custom and premium. But still three grades dealing with issues of joinery,materials and finishes.
Interesting posts to your thread.
Everyone has their own idea, for me it's more a philosophical thing.
If I cannot make something which is "high end" why bother, as the big furniture store down the road sells some really nice stuff, at a price which is often less than my lumber only.
For me, high end means it looks nicer than the stuff at the furniture store, it's made from solid wood in natural colors, wherever possible (no stain) and will last for several generations, in style and durability.
The solid wood part is important, as abuse through the years will allow stripping the finish and restoring to new, several times over.
I find it interesting that you consider a veneered piece inferior to a solid wood piece. I would agree if the pieces you're talking about are laid up with 1/120" veneers and Ethan Allen type quality but veneered pieces done well are often superior to solid for a variety of reasons.LeeMontanaFest
I'm two week-ends away from finishing a big project, where you kindly helped with some carving advice. I'll post when done. I had to use veneer on a big portion, as it was very difficult to take care of wood movement in this area and veneer was the solution. As you say, I did not use the thin stuff but resawed my own, to match the solid portions.
So, I agree with you, but my personal preference is to stay away from veneer if I can, as it distinguishes more when one compares to mass production. The more veneer you use, the more difficult it gets, to convince the novice that your pieces are very different from what he can buy at the furniture store.
When building custom furniture, we are competing with manual labor, against mass production. If we try to sell our labor at journeyman wage rates, our earning potential is very limited and extremely uncompetitive. To be successful, we have to sell "master craftsmanship" which is expensive and materials become a negligible part of the equation. No point in trying to save a few $$$, on plywood, if we are pouring 500 hours of labor into the piece.
Edited 6/2/2005 6:21 pm ET by Jellyrug
I'm probably in a different situation than many here but I'll say that it's not a good idea to compete with any production furniture. If you do you'll lose. I know that seems very easy for me to say but if you want to make furniture as a career you'd better quickly outclass any production lines so that these production pieces are simply not on the table when discussing commissions with a client. Grow your skills quickly and grow them well beyond what factories are producing.LeeMontanaFest
Lee,
I'm just a Rookie, who took the easy way out, up the corporate ladder where the money is.
My father was a master at this though, he only made "high end" and picked his commissions with a 18 month waiting list. He was also my tutor, but things were different during his lifetime.
He had three golden rules:
1.) No veneer whatsoever and only selected hardwoods, even the parts you don't see.
2.) No stain or coloring but rather a selection of natural wood.
3.) Mortise and tenons used wherever possible with the joints pinned and the pins showing.
I attach a picture of one of his many pieces, you'll notice even the back panels and shelves were solid wood.
I'm not sure if his recipe will be successful today, but he made a good living with these principles.
Hello Jellyrug,
I would like to se those pics of real work- but I have been unable to -Adobe reader comes up saying file is corrupted or something-I must be doing something wrong-can you help?
I was unable to open the attachments too.Your father found a style that worked well for him and his clients, great. There are many styles that do not employ veneers and these are no less worthy than those that do. However, shunning veneers and laminated materials can really limit your designs.Chippendale, Sheraton, Hepplewhite, Goddard, Phyfe, Ruhlman, Eames, and Wright to name a few all used veneer extensively. It would be difficult to classify their work as anything other than "high end".Veneers open a world of designs that are not open to those who shun them. Many designs simply cannot be built well without the use of veneers. Bashing veneers to potential clients will discredit you to those who know better and most "high end" buyers do know better, they've been to museums and galleries and collector's homes. It's really not in anyone's best interest, especially a furniture maker's, to bash veneers.When discussing a piece with a patron I will tell them why I'm selecting veneers, why I'm selecting composites, why I'm selecting solids... if it comes up at all. My favorite clients are those that want to know everything but I have some who don't care a whit.So, I guess what I'm saying this: Don't speak poorly of veneered pieces because they are veneered. It will hurt you among educated buyers. If you want to speak poorly of a veneered piece speak of why it's poorly done, blast the thickness, blast the glues, blast the substrate, blast the design. Also, thicker veneers can be every bit as problematic as thinner veneers. Over 3/32" and you're looking for trouble. What makes veneer work well is stability and the thicker the veneer the more it will exert itself on the substrate and the inevitable casualty of these wars is always the glue line.Oh, and by the way..., you call the corporate route the easy one? Hah! Me in a suit is like Gollum with an Elven rope around his neck. Try to post the pics as jpgs, I'd like to see them.LeeMontanaFest
Lee,
Agree with your post, we had a long line of family members in this business, making enough money not to bother about promoting their stuff to the world. It was always word of mouth and they had their own ideas. I'm the only one left and have bowed down to not being able to continue their reputation.
About the corporate world, I call it prostitution, where you sell your soul, doing what you hate most and making a good living from it. So, I envy you. Perhaps one day, when I retire, long ways from here.
I post the pics in JPG format, apologies, I was not paying attention.
Let me know if it works this time.
PS. I have looked at your site with envy, don't see anything there which is not "high end"
Edited 6/3/2005 11:33 am ET by Jellyrug
Okay, I saw them, it's a beautiful piece, your father did great work, Jelly.Your father was in the biz at a time when veneer was most abused by the production world. Some was done very poorly and the finishes used by production factories then were not up to the task of protecting veneered pieces that saw day to day use. The glues factories use have improved and the finishes they use are worlds ahead of the old ones. Protection is key for lasting veneered surfaces that see use and the catalyzed finishes of today are much better than the lacquers of a few decades ago, factories are rarely able to use really good finishes because they need to bow to economy.Your father capitalised on this, much to his credit. When composites first hit the markets there were bugs to be worked out and during that process there was some real crap put out there. Things have improved and will continue to do so and your father was smart enough to ride the rebound from this crap. I used to sing the same songs your father did about veneers and stain and joinery and such. There was a whole movement that was recoiling from production work and shoddy workmanship and they were preaching a return to "honest" furniture. Your father was very much a part of this movement although he was nearer the end than the beginning. The style is very much his own but the influences of Early America, Rococco and Eastlake are apparrent. Eastlake was in the midst of the Arts and Crafts movement and he influenced your father's design quite a lot.I hope you have a few of your father's pieces, they are precious beyond sentiments.LeeMontanaFest
ALL I CAN SAY IS WOW! Lovely...
By the way.. I'd get BETTER crystal for that cabinet...
Edited 6/3/2005 5:56 pm ET by Will George
You envy me , Hah!I spent 6 hours carving today. I carved about 8" of apron for a coffee table. In that 8" there were four acanthus leaves, one shell and several volutes.Of all that I breathed actual life into one acanthus leaf. One short spell lasting about 15 minutes where my mind, my eyes, my hands and my tools were all in accord. Too fleeting, too fleeting. The bar is ever ascending and I will never touch it. In this coffee table with a circumference of approximately nine feet there will be six inches I live for, six inches where it all feels right, six inches of what I consider good stuff. I met Ruthie in town tonight. We got drunk and she told me about her day. Ruthie, my lovely wife, is a nurse at a sliding scale clinic. She met Jesus, an attractive blond girl on meds (not enough), and her friends who graciously allowed Ruthie to sit on a chair in the exam room. She counseled drunks, drug addicts and wonderful sane people. She had a normal day. My greatest moments of clarity seem to happen when I'm least able to act. I suppose it's best but I do wish I could type better when drunk.I love what I do, Jelly, but it comes at a price. Few could suffer my solace. When this coffee table is done no one will see the great leaves I carved, they will be lost in the whole. I guess it's the whole I'm working towards but, damnit, I'd really love to make a perfect whole someday.I'm drunk and I'm not complaining. I love what I do.But, few are fit for a life making fine furniture and most of those that "envy me" are not fit for this lifestyle any more than I'm fit for theirs. You see the whole and don't see the rest. It's best that way, I suppose. Don't envy me, my friend.Cheers buddy, find the leaf. LeeMontanaFest
Lee,
I was really touched by your post, and I wish you could hang it on the wall of every hobbyist with romantic dreams of becoming a professional. I have a hundred things to add, but I'll settle for one only...
I've been in the Middle East for a long time. The beduins traditionally did beautiful embroidery, especially on wedding dresses. But they always left some corner with a mistake or an unfinished portion because only Allah can create a perfect piece of work. It is our role as humans to long for that perfection and never reach it, to see that we are incapable of really doing, and when everything is really right for a moment to understand that it isn't me who is doing it.
best,
DR
romantic dreams of becoming a professional
And then I got married...
I was just thinkin' again.. Hand made.. I think I was about 20 or so...
I made a floor shifter for my old car.. Cut and welded steel from a scrap yard...
Looked like hell but 'shifted' REALLY nice.... LOL.. I was so HAPPY!
Edited 6/5/2005 3:42 pm ET by Will George
Nice work,
Perhaps I should just give up my carving efforts and commission them your way. Let me try a bit harder first.
Some comments:
My mallet was made from a fallen Almond tree, came out real nice, very hard and smaller than normal, as the wood is heavy. It makes me feel kind of like Moses in the old testament, although I haven't seen any blossoms yet. I see you have a rubber around yours for protection, does that make a difference?
Is that a Starbucks coffee mug on the right hand side? Perhaps that's what I'm missing, the caffeine to sharpen my blows.
Well, it's weekend, off into the shop....
Jelly, if you're wondering if a mallet will make a better carver it will not. I use the urethane mallet for a couple or reasons. The force a mallet exerts on a tool can be described as a push. The push is longer with a urethane head than a hard head such as a wooden mallet. The push with a wooden head is sharp and while no less powerful it's not as long as the urethane. Does this really matter? Probably not but I do prefer the effect from a urethane head. More importantly to me is the sound. I don't like the crack of a wooden face. I know it's music to some but it just wears on me. I like the quiet of the urethane head. This is purely personal and has no effect on what goes out the shop door. I do feel the urethane head is easier on the tools. I've had some tools that are 25 years old and have never seen a wooden mallet. The handles look as good as the day I bought them. It's all purely personal preference and will have little if any effect on the work you do. If you like your mallet, keep it.Starbucks? I don't even know if there is one in the whole state of Montana. We have our own version of these coffee shops but the nearest one is 20 miles away. We live in a rural place. Michael Dresdner took us out for coffee when we were visiting one time and he gave me the taste for double shot latte with half a shot of hazelnut. I have my own espresso machine and I nurse two or three of these throughout my days. The mug was a gift from neighbors and I think it came from Costco.Forget the commission idea, you're well on your way and you're going to do some very nice work. I'm looking forward to seeing the project you've been working on. You never did say what grade you got on thie piece you were doing for the class. What's up with that?LeeMontanaFest
Thanks for the encouragement.
I planned to spend some time with Chris Pye in England, but never got so far, so the only carving classes were books and some of your tips. I'm getting along OK, but if I look at your work realize I need more training. I stick to the easier stuff though, as time is limited at this end.
The old man when alive taught me most wooworking skills before the age of 20, but after cutting some gaskets for my motorcycle with his carving chisels, he kicked my #### so bad, I never touched those chisels again. :-) I did'nt appreciate it then, but I do now.
You know, Ian Agrell is in Mill Valley. Ian is an extraordinary carver who also teaches.LeeMontanaFest
I spent 6 hours carving today..
Ya SURE know how to hurt a guy! Damn!,,, I carve fer that long and I just ruined the wood AND my carvin' knives...
THAT IS NICE!
Now THAT is fine stuff.
Is the dark timber Imbuia (Brazilian walnut)?--- Don't call an air strike on me-it looks like that to me and I am not familiar with Black walnut or any other walnut, much as I would love to be.
Good identification!
That is Imbuia. It's close to Walnut if the Walnut is finished with Blonde Shellac, but has much finer grain and a herb spicy scent.
Jelly,
Thanks-I was hoping I was correct.
Imbuia is one of my favourite timbers: can you believe that a lot of it came to South Africa and probably other places to be used as rail road sleepers! Recently I have heard that it is no longer exported from Brazil, and since I have rarely seen mention of it in FW or American circles this may just be true.
We used it in a factory I worked in in Zimbabwe and it was often supplied in huge widths-like 30inches plus.This was in the 1980's.
Mookaroid,
We get Imbuia here in the US, but it's not well known. It's a very fine cabinet wood, but when the bidding starts for stock from South America, Europe and specially South Africa normally bid higher than the American Lumber purchasers, due to the competition from Walnut here.
A few places sell it here though.
It is one of my favorites as well. Working properties and finishing is better than most other. Superb for carving. Some people are allergic to it though, and I'm one of those, so I have to wear a dust mask and live with a runny nose and eyes for a while. I don't get this with any other lumber.
What kind of lumber do you get in New Zealand, do you have indigenous hardwoods?
Jelly,
Kiwimac is the person to tell us about New Zealand timbers -I am just a struggling immigrant here...They do have a few indigenous timbers, and there is a lot of home grown mythology associated with it....They also import the usual exotics,give or take, and in fact it might have been one of these importers who told me that Imbuia is no longer imported here: the wrong type of GREEN boys/girls seem to be alive and well here unfortunately.
Can you not have that allergy to it sorted by a doctor?
Have attached a pic of cnr cabinet of Imbuia- factory made in Rhodesia in 1952 when it was country. Given to my mother by my father for producing me....
Edited 6/5/2005 12:08 am ET by mookaroid
The pic that was not attached:
Not rotated as it will be even more jaggyfied.
Mookeroid,
I took the liberty of re-posing the cabinet. That is a nice piece and I can see the Imbuia immediately, in it's natural color. English influence, during Ian Smith's time in Rhodesia.
You must have gone through quite a transition into the now Zim, under Mugabe. Glad to hear you are settling with the Kiwi's. Bet you miss the the beauty of Victoria Falls, but not Mugabe.
Jellyrug ,
I was able to open the pictures with no problem , simply put your Father's work is beautiful and IMO it just don't get much better than that. Wether you call it high end or heirloom museum quality , you should be very proud of your Fathers talents. Thanks for sharing those pics with us . Part of the beauty of being a craftsman and maker , we can select the materials and styles we choose to pursue . Just because veneers were or were not used says little about the quality of a piece , it is really a matter of personal choice .
dusty
Gorgeous piece! You ought to post them in the gallery to inspire others. Quick question on the back - was it shiplapped, tounge and groove or what?1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
A take off on that is that a lot of the furniture you can buy is made from this and that wood and ply or particle or MDF and does not hold up. Even much of the pricier furniture is a mix of ok wood and cheap junk wood. Now admittedly the use of seconday wood has a long tradition in our craft, but it is also a matter of knowing whic secondary wood is appropriate to the piece.
That is why (along with economies of scale) the stores can sell for less than cost of the lumber for someone to make their own.
Now compare the cost of a Maloof rocker against what the materials cost and you might have a better comparison.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
High end....I think about reputation as one of the things to factor into "high end". Example is there is a furniture maker that lives in the mountains near me. He's been making furniture for at least twenty years. His pieces are mostly handmade and all well made. When he sells something his reputation goes with the purchase. People know of him all over. His prices...well, he can charge almost anything he wants. People order something from him and the piece will be delivered in 3 to 6 months, no complaints. They understand quality and a good reputation are not earned overnight.
This is what I think of with "high end".
pk
Edited 6/3/2005 1:10 am ET by pqken
Metod, I'd agree. It's interesting that these designations have changed over the years. (Maybe because of the money angle or advertising.) I remember when I was young, hand made meant high end.
But then again the eyes of a boy can be narrow.
In my view these terms don't necessarily go together, although they can. My own pieces are part hand made but they're not high end. I make them "by hand" not to call them high end and up the price but to challenge myself. (I don't advertise as such either.) Especially where I live, to advertise as hand made or high end would be a laugh when the "old" thoughts on this subject are still very much the norm.
And another note on this subject.
There are people here who have done this all their life and still don't consider themselves high end because they understand how much more there is to learn. Other people may call them professional or master craftsman but you won't hear them talk about themselves like that.
Like another person said, "Perhaps " High End" and " Handmade" are similar? when we achieve it we won't have to tell anybody---- it will be obvious to them."
pk
Edited 6/4/2005 10:06 am ET by pqken
Metod - in your original question you ask what is "high end". You state that you understand the mechanical aspects to the term with regards to woodworking but wish to understand how a client may perceive a "high end" tag.
I would be very careful to use this term with clients, I believe it carries a negative or derogatory meaning. In my experience, "high end" is something that a humble producer or seller would never use, it sounds very arrogant. It's a classification that is used by competitors or want-to-be customers to describe a possibly overpriced product (not just woodwork).
It sounds like your question specifically relates to the term "high end", I would prefer to use "premium" or " custom" or similar phraseology that other forum members would agree to. I don't believe there is a question regarding what is "high craftsmanship." After reading the expert opinions of the members here, craftsmanship is understood. However, I would be very leery to use the term "high end" to describe an expertly crafted piece of woodwork.
Some truth in your words.
Best is just to refer to it as "my own work", and if your clients say, "he only does high end" you have scored the goal.
I'ts OK to talk about "high end" amongst woodworkers, but not if you are dealing with a client, I agree.
Everyone knows Sam Maloof, the name says it all, nothing more is necessary.
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