while showing my in progess timberframe to my dentist and his wife he was admiring the work while she was commenting how tolerant my wife must be for putting up with a work in progress.
anyway he wanted to see where I was cutting all the timbers etc. and when i showed him my shop full of mostly Grizzley powertools he went ape, talking away how he’d always wanted a shop like mine and asking prices etc.. He positively bubbled about it and couldn’t stop talking about how he always wanted a shop etc..
The next day her secratary called me and wanted the name of some high end places to buy “really good tools” (did I mention that she’s a high priced attorney?,,,… yeh, I hate her, but I like my dentist)
Anyway
what is the high end of all of this stuff? If Grizzley and other made in Tiawan stuff is the lower end of shop tools what is the high end?
how much are we talking about for the usual saw/ shaper / jointer/ planer/ bandsaw/ etc? When you are talking about expense be darned?
Replies
Frenchy,
Being a dentist..if he looses his fingers he looses everything. You better introduce him to the euro stuff....
When $$ is no object, the European "cabinet" saws are definitely the way to go. There was a review a couple months ago, I could dig it out, but I'd bet Sgian and a couple of the other European experts can come to the rescue here.
forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I think even an attorney will have a budget, so I'll only mention Altendorf saws
First purchase should be an electrican to wire the dentist's shop for 220 power.
As to saws my suggestion is a euro sliding table saw. Look for a sliding table long enough to pass an 8ft sheet will past the blade. Be aware that a even a low-end euro saw is likely to weigh up more than 1000 lbs. If your looking for brands machines made by Hammer, Paoloni, Robland, Minimax, Kity, Sicar were reviewed in Australian Wood Review Issue 31 (about 2 1/2 years ago). There was no out right recommendation, each saw had good and bad points. Some had scoring blades, the reviewer prefered the horizontal stops on some saws more than on others, etc.
As to planers and thicknessers, bigger is better, right ?
Ian
Expense be damned, Frenchy? Here's a couple of links for that kind of 'dream on' stuff. That'll be after he's wired up the workshop for three phase, and taken about two years out of his life to go and get proper training somewhere, ha, ha--- ha, ha, ha. You don't take on machines like this without knowing yer erse from yer elbow so to speak.
http://www.martin-usa.com/t_start.asp
http://www.altendorfamerica.com/
Once his reality button has been hit, and his heart stops racing after noting the prices I'd suggest one or two more reasonably priced options for the weekend woodwhacker-- I seem to recall the Martin thicknessers and surface planers alone come in at about US$15,000-- $20,000, and the top of the range Altendorf saw comes at a thumping ~US$24,000, plus a wee bit of tax.
Machines of this type are designed to run all day every day, and are completely unsuited for occasional use. For instance, the Altendorf saw-- a thing of beauty-- is superb at processing hundreds of panel products, but is a complete pain in the pants for many solid wood processing operations.
Now for the high end reality for a free spending dentist that doesn't want to come out of it all looking like a complete posing pillock with more money than sense, ha, ha.
Felder, and it's baby sister, Hammer. Both can be got as combination machines or as separate units, and the Felder range is more expensive of the two in the family for all the usual quality reasons. If money is only a minor concern, three phase supply is available, and space isn't a premium, the separate machine option makes sense.
Rojek and Minimax would be worth a look too. All three of the companies named have made a determined effort to penetrate the US market and have reasonable service and repair set-ups as far as I know. Robland and (I think) Knapp sell combination machines in the US too. Just how good all these companies' after sales service is I can't comment, but they are certainly there in the US at the hobbiest level.
On the other hand, he might just go for a European saw of the smaller type-- say a small Felder, and stick to the better known US brands for most of the other stuff-- Powermatic, Delta, Jet, Grizzly, etc.. The weekend wood-whacker will find it usually less frustrating to get spares for the well known brands, and they all work more than good enough for the occasional user. Slainte.
sounds like this guy would be the perfect customer for a super high end combo machine. that means Felder, http://www.felderusa.com , or Knapp, or which is distributed by Laguna Tools, http://www.lagunatools.com , and i believe Bridge City Tools. the wife wouldn't have to pick out a lot of separate machines- she could pretty much one stop shop.
here's the best part- make sure you stay in touch with these folks and after a few years of this monster taking up space, collecting dust instead of making it, you should be able to buy the whole set-up from them for a small fraction of the $12,000-$25,000 it cost new. with this in mind, while interest is high, hook them up with as much tooling, accessories, etc. as their bank account will stand. use phrases like, "if you reaaally want the best....", "weeelll, i'm sure this isn't within your budget, but..." and (to seque into the Lie-Nielsen and Bridge City stuff) "you know it takes more than power tools to make furniture..."
good luck- your future shop is at stake here!
m
I spoke to him this morning and he's still jazzed about getting a shop, His wife needs to make ammends since three years ago she spent over $120,000 on her kitchen and this spring tore most of it out and spent $180,000..
I guess she's from a really serious old money family and they think she's slumming with a mere dentist.. He was interested in Grizzley and that was fine by him, but apparently she sees a chance to get off the hook and isn't about to let it go..
anyway some contractor has it now and according to my dentist he will have a complete shop installed by Christmas...I kidded him that his first project could be his own coffin..
(you have to know him to appreciate the humor)
A real head-shaker at this end, frenchy. If he wants toys, why not buy a garage full of vintage Harley's or Corvette's or similar, and employ a full time mechanic to keep them all in order?
On the other hand, as someone else said earlier in this thread, keep yourself friendly with him. You might end up with some dream machinery and hand tools for a song in a year or two when he gets bored with it all, ha, ha--- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.Website
Just before they were married his MGB broke down and made him late to pick her up.. She insisted on going to Italy on her honeymoon and bought him a new Ferrarri. When he got home his beloved MGB was gone, donated to the Goodwill.
Since the Ferrarri incident he doesn't have much interest in cars,, The interesting thing about her kitchen is according to him she cooks maybe three times a year (they have a full time cook) Ironically considering everything he is definately not hen pecked.. She came to my place because he told ther to come and stop complaining, "yes Dear, she said...
frenchy
I will second Sgain's suggestion of Mini-Max and Rojek. The Mini-Max folks are out in Austin, Tx. and the Rojek folks are in Arkansas. Have had good experiences with both at both the Atlanta WW Show's and the International WW Show here in Atlanta on all occasions I have dropped in. They get behind their product (which is excellent) as they want to penetrate the U.S. market.
The Altendorf's and Martins are beyond the average person's budget, but maybe not his. But, I don't think he has the skill levels or need at this point for either. That might hold true with Mini-Max and Rojek also, but these are medium high priced and sounds like a good match for him with his un-limited budget.
You could mention he could achieve good results with a circular saw, a router, hand saws and some good hand planes. But I don't think that's what he wants to hear. To operate any of the above mentioned will require a learning curve. I think some might think that the higher priced quality machines could possess "auto-pilot". ha... ha....
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge
Not only are the Altendorf's and Martins are beyond the average person's budget - they also require a HUGE amount of space to sit in (I know - I have an Altendorf and it takes up half as much floor space as my house - then again we have a small house....), but heck maybe space is no worry, either..... Do you think he's into antiques? Coz if he is I have this lovely patinated example of Altendorf that's just crying out to meet his pocket book.... <G>
Scrit
Scrit
I don't think space is an issue from the way Frenchy described the dentist and his wife. If it was, they just sell the house and get a "bigger" one. Sounds like what we called the "yuppie" syndrome in the 80's.
If she is from an "old money" family, that is equilvalent to Dukes and Duchessess in GB. You would not want to market your Altendorf as "used". They don't except used as a prominent alternative. "Antique" is the correct approach as that is not only accepted, but sought after as "show-pieces" to impress friends and those of prominence. ha.. ha...
To the shop for the sake of Santa... :>)
Regards...
sarge,jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I'd suggest a basic WW class. Do you have a Woodcraft store near you? Some community colleges offer these also. He should figure out what he wants to do, then buy the tools he needs to do it. He may be happy just turning big pieces of wood into little ones on a lathe. Some find that relaxing and tremendously rewarding - scares the hell out of me.
"If we' treading on thin ice,
Then we might as well dance".
Mike, I wonder if that space problem you've been having at the end of your posts is somehow related to your personal signature quote..?
CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Let's not forget Northfield and Oliver here. I have heard that Oliver is being produced in Chiwan, but it should most likely still be better than the other run-of-the-mill American equipment.
Maybe she thought your stuff was the high end stuff.
Minimax
Felder
Robland
General
Powermatic
Laguna
SAC is offering a nice trio; F-305 12" jointer, RS-53/S planer and the TS-120 shaper for $25,000. http://www.SACLLC.com Very nice and not overwhelmingly industrial. Make sure he gets a big Timesaver sander so you can stop by and try it out.
What scares me is who is his contractor? I mean I can well imagine some light in the toes, color corrdinated swatch waving Nancy boy who will buy equipment based on color, Mauve is the new "in" color this year so let's buy those chisels made in Bangladesh with the mauve handles,..
Face it, what does she know if she calls somebody like me for advice on equipment?
THIS STUFF IS BETTER THAN SOAPS AND IT KEEPS ME OFF EBAY BUYING EXPENSIVE HAND PLANES AND MEASURING TOOLS. MY WIFE IS WONDERING WHAT IS MAKING ME LAUGH SO MUCH. THANKS GUYS
woody
Is your wife "old line money" or part of the "newly rich"? If old line those are "antique" hand planes your looking at on e-bay. If new rich "used" bargains are acceptable as long as you keep them out of sight of the "house-guest". For sure, it would be a big mistake to tote those "bed-rocks" around or mention them at dinner parties. Some things are just a social no-no and could lead to a sense of embarassment and shame for the entire family!
For God's sakes Woody, think of your family first... ha..ha...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sorry Sarge my wife is neither old money or newly rich we both worked hard for thirty five years and now are retired at the lake and doing repairs for the needy for free and lovin it. I have a 24x40 shop with all the tools Norm has and maybe a few he doesen't have
Blood,sweat and beers
woody
Retired at the lake... 24 x 60 shop... all the tools Norm has.
Yep, sounds like "new rich" to me. ha.. ha...
Just kiddin' of course. Enjoy the retirement and keep up the good charity work. I get a great deal of pleasure doing it myself.
Wishing your retirement the best...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Frenchy,
In addition to the contractor, this sounds like a perfect job for a professional tool consultant. (You used to do that didn't you?) Your dentist is probably grossing over $400/hr. A tool consultant ought to go for somewhere in that Ballpark? Maybe add a percentage of tool cost just to up the price and make them feel they have hired a real pro. (And, for a slight commission, perhaps a few of the Knots posters could attest to your expertise.)
Staples should be able to whip up some (of your "old") business cards for you in short order.
Or. If they'd rather have The Pro From Out Of Town, let us know.
Oldfred
AW shucks,
I aint' no espert' nohow!
don't know what color would go with puce nor mauve and as fer social graces, I haint got none..
as 'fer business cards, I don't use "em. Nope, .. not since I found out that gamblein' was illeagal (and they found that 5th ace up my sleeve)....
Frenchy,
I don't think we have puce or mauve in Maine. My wife says our camp is "tavern taupe". Looks like grocery bag brown to me. But waddaIknow.....
Oldfred
Fred
SCM used to do machines in "tavern taupe", or "desert" as they called it.
Still wondering if Knapp are bringing out that combo with the gold-plated handwheels....
Scrit
Scrit, I sure hate to look ignorant, but who are SCM and Knapp?
Oldfred
Fred
It's a European thing, really <G>....
SCM (based in Rimini, Italy) are the world's largest manufacturer of woodworking machinery. They make everything from tradesman machinery (MiniMax) to industrial CNC machinery (Routech, Morbidelli, etc). Take a look at the SCM USA web site.
Knapp are a manufacture of woodworking machinery based in Austria. They are part of the group which own Emco (Austria) and Lurem (France). Knapp make the top of the range combination woodworking machines sold by the group, as well as stand-alone "classic" machines. The USA importer is Laguna Tools. I'd love one, but I could never afford one, even without gold-plated handles....
Scrit
" I aint' no espert' nohow!"
Frenchy,
ROFLMAO!
Mebbe you're an "expert" and dont know it: as far as I know, an ex is a has-been, and a spurt is a drip under pressure ha, ha
Having a terrific time reading this thread.
Thanks for the laughs,PaulWhether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
a has been spurt... sigh!
Obviously "high end" has many different answers depending upon the individual. As part of my teaching high school woodowrking, my students and I visit a number of 1 to 5 person wood shops - folks making a living with custom furniture. And in virtually every shop we find old iron - vintage 50's and 60's Delta, Oliver, Powermatic, Parks, etc. These folks pick up these machine for much less than new ones and they are usually fine old machines with plenty of life in them. And parts are available for most brands. It's the folks with deep pockets who don't need to meet payroll or pay rent on a shop who buy the Felders, etc. They may be fine machines, but the folks in my area depending on their machines for a living are going for old iron.
Last year, a very deep pocketed physician liquadated his entire wood shop - a half block old warehouse where he made a lot of reproductions for himself and family. Everthing he had was old iron - e.g. he had both an old Unisaw and an old PM66 - one cutting on the left and one cutting on the right. His collection - that included some metal working machines - looked like a tool catalogue from the early 60's. And he had the money to buy anything he wanted. If your dentist friend likes new stuff, fine but in all fairness, show him the evolution of some of the woodwroking machines today and what was made 30 or 40 years ago.
Edited 12/15/2003 12:47:42 PM ET by EDGREGG
while there may still be value in thirty or fifty year old power tools, I am dead certain that they would not be an answer..
First they are not interested in the treasure hunt of looking for an old tool,
second they have no knowledge to determine the condition or value of old tools
third, they wouldn't know where to begin to look for someone to recondition their tools.
Fourth, They are interested in using their new "toys" right away, (like on Christmas day)
Fifth, They don't have an interest in fixing old tools.
sixth, I doubt their friends would be sufficantly impressed with older tools. (at least with new they can brag about costs)
I'm certain there are a lot of other objections to older equipment, but I have one that prevented me from seriously considering it..
How could I find a deal on equipment when I needed it and not pay too much for it? I mean is there a "equipment Bluebook" Least with new if it should prove tohave a problem I had an easy solution..
Your points could summarized essentially as instant gratification which is why some folks buy the latest glitzy machines. And you are right - folks with trophy homes want trophy machines so nothing but the most expensive, newest machines meet their needs.
But for those looking for a machine to do a better job in their shop, there are numerous places to find old machines - and they are not a treasure hunt. I usually start at my industrial distributor - they have quite an inventory of old iron. And these places can be found in every state - even in the hinterlands of Montana where my daughter lives there are some wonderful used machine folks. And I'm always anticipating what my next machine will be so that if the opportunity strikes, I'm ready. As an example, I picked up a vintage 70's Delta scroll saw in mint condition for $200. It was a long term planned purchase so the $200 was not a budget breaker. And a friend picked up a 20 inch Crescent Bandsaw for free - in good condition. He already has one band saw but will now make this one for resawing.
And as you point out, old tools are not for everyone - just like old houses are not for everyone. But I do take exception to your point about repairing old machines - in every case where I have had to repair old ones in our school shop, the parts are readily available and easy to repair. But the new equipment - what a pain - tiny spaces, more plastic than metal!
>> ... in every case where I have had to repair old ones in our school shop, the parts are readily
>> available and easy to repair.
There's old and then there's old. If a machine is so old that even the old guys have never seen a new one, parts are likely to be tough. If it's so old it has babbit bearings, double tough.
Yes you are right - there's old and then there's very old. Obviously machines that no longer exist can be a problem - Parks is no longer in business but there are some parts available but not always. However with that being said, I have a vintage forties Delta Scroll saw and every part is available.
What a lot of people don't realize is that new tools are disappearing faster than old iron. If you are the proud owner of old, extra heavy duty Black & Decker portable tools - say the infamous holgun - forget about parts. B&D wants you to buy the new, high profit DeWalts so you can't get B&D parts for machines made even in the late 80's. And B&D is now discontinuing parts on the earlier DeWalt portable machines.
What's more freightening are tool vendors like Laguna and Grizzly - both are privately owned. Not to be somber, but what happens if one of those owners dies - is there really a business continuity plan for them (having been a manufacturing consultant, I was startled at the number of firms that have no continuity plans). So Grizzly or Laguna are bought up by someone else who decides to discontinue the current line and parts - you're stuck. That's exactly what happened to the Stanley Power Tool Division - bought by Bosch who maintained parts for 5 years, then nothing.
I am gambling that Delta and Powermatic (and Jet) have such an established base and name recognition that they will be there for the long haul. Other machines I'm not so sure.
Then you should like the new made in China (Tiawan) stuff, Big ol' belts, decent sized motors, bearings that you can actually lubricate, simple gears and stuff that appears butt simple..
I actually checked around here in Mpls. before buying and if there were bargins to be found, I couldn't find them.. They wanted as much for a reconditioned thirty year old Delta table saw as a brand new Grizzley. My first major purchase, a Delta contractors saw caused me so much grief I nearly swore off doing this house. Luckily I found Grizzley and have been happy ever since..
But you are correct about the dentist and his lawyer wife (well at least his wife) She wants fanchy stuff to show off.. To her it's not about what you can make with the equipment, it's having something others can't afford.
One of the reasons I go for old iron is to avoid the off-shore product although it is difficult to do. You're right - China stuff is big, heavy but it ends there. I bought a Sears lathe for our school shop - got it from Sears for $200 because the previous owner hated it - apparently he owned it for several days. It has a heavy bed but it ends there. The tool rest does not move very easily and that's after much work on it. To remove the drive center, you have to reverse turn a large nut to force the center off - real lathes use a knock-out bar. The variac speed control switch is so poorly made that it comes apart if you turn it too hard. I finally took it to an electronics store where they matched it with a heavy duty one for $3. And the machine sounds like a bucket of bolts in a paint mixer when it runs. But as you said, it's heavy and big. Next to it is a low end Delta that was made (or at least assembled) in the US - I let my students decide which one they like - needless to say, they walk away with a poor view of Sears and Chinese products.
Finding old iron is not difficult - make friends with some good millwork shops and - voila - you'll have some sources!
Just courious, but from the tone of your posts it's obvious that you're a fan of old machinery so I'm going to make a few assumptions here (correct me please where I make an error)
Older is better?
I have an Old Ford Model A and a early 50's MG so I can understand your affections for them..
Yet I know that much as I like the stuff it's not better just differant.
On my old cars I spend a inordinate amount of time on them and certainly would hang around others in order to get a "deal" on a particular neat old car..
I assume that you feel the same about old machinery?
To me the challenge of finding obscure parts for an out of production car is part of the charm of the hobby.. May I assume the same for you?
I can spend hours with a file and machine tools to get a just perfect surface on something without considering it a poor use of my time, may I assume the same for you?
I never thought about it but I guess you are right. I do have some new machines - soft start routers - particularly the big 3.25 PC are really great. I find it interesting that original designs - many were developed by the old Delta Milwaukee - like the 14 inch band saw and the Unisaw were real breakthroughs in design. And with all the tinkering by Delta and others, the basic design still remains. I find that really interesting.
I have a 1941 Ford/Ferguson farm tractor - the first machine to introduce the 3 point hitch and I have a new Kubota 35 hp farm tractor - the Kubota has lots of bells and whistles but the basic design is identical to that Ford 9N. I tried to but a domestically made tractor but to no avail - Deere sold their soul to YanMar for small machines.
Yes, I guess you are right. So if you run into an old machine, give me a holler - I'll give you two cents worth and let you know if its a good deal.
Hey Frenchie, if it still matters to the dentist wife, I believe that the Taunton CEO has a Felder in his shop in Connecticut and another in his summer place in France. Does that set the right tone for her?
BJGardening, cooking and woodworking in Southern Maryland
Please it's frenchy with a Y not an IE Y is maculine and ie is femine.
anyway that should make a differance but as I said a contractor has the job now and according to my dentist friend he will have his shop completed by christmas eve.. (they are working 16 hours a day to ensure that it will be)..
he doesn't have the faintist idea of what the equipment will be, I just hope it's not Delta.. :-(
why
all
the
spaces???
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