I teach science at a high school in Washington state. Before teaching school I worked twenty five years in woodworking and boatbuilding and repair. There is a possibility I may be asked to teach a woodworking and boatbuilding class next year, actually it would be a two year program. We have a adequate shop facility that is not being utilized fully at this time and our non college bound students do not have a lot of vocational opportunities. The position is voluntary on my part, but I am a natural experience-wise. My concerns are primarily if it can be be a serious program in the sense that the kids work hard and the expectations are high. I don’t have any interest if it is a dumping ground for the kid who is failing everything else and that is where they end up, which seems to be a pretty common experience.
I alternate between thinking it could be a really neat program and terror that I would be giving up at least some of science classes, which are really neat, to teach what at best could be only a mediocre program. I say that because before I got my science teaching credential I visited a number of woodshop programs that were downright scary.
My questions:
1. Does anyone know of high school, or high school age student, programs in Western Washington that are successful and rigorous? I would like to visit some before committing.
2. Is there a vocational woodshop discussion board anywhere, I couldn’t find one so I thought I’d ask
3. And finally any thoughts and experiences would be appreciated.
Todd Miller
Replies
I cannot help you with any of your professional concerns, but I would like to emphatically encourage you to undertake the shop class challenge even if at first the program may seem to attract "dumped" students. Why? Because such a program affords so many learning experiences with lifelong value that the purported objective of learning shop skills is really a secondary objective. Shop is not only hands-on manual training, it is also "hands-on" life skills exposure ranging from creativity and real applied thinking to social practice. I have no problem with science curricula or any of the other studies of which our culture seems to be increasingly supportive, but there are plenty of these already and fewer and fewer programs that nurture individual growth. Shop can do that, and if you could see the rewards as being way more than hand-eye, project-related job training, I think you'd find a real calling. My best wishes to you. Jim
Todd, This sounds like a very rewarding venture, and it sounds like you have what it takes to make it work. From the get-go you need to make it know to the parents, and the administration, that you are not going to tolerate anyone in the class that is not there for the right reasons, and that at your discretion anyone can be sent packing if they are not making the cut.
As far as others, have you been to Wooden Boat magazine forum? Here is a link to the forum. Good luck. Keith
http://woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi
Todd, some good advice, esp with respect to Center for Wooden Boats in Seattle. I note you also raised the question on WoodenBoat's page, so you know doubt know of the resources available from/thru them.
What I am doing these days is providing hands-on tech programs for kids, outside of school, for a fee. There may be something of value in my experiences.
The majority of the kids are interested, and work at, the project. I, intentionally, have them work as partners, which, most of the time, works as intended. Girls are a great addition - classes with girls are quieter, and the boys are typically intimidated when they discover the girls are almost always ahead of them with the project.
My suggestion, if possible, attempt to offer the poject "after school", esp if you can do so on a fee basis. This will, mostly, limit your clientel to those who are interested, and who will provide you with unbuyable marketing (well, assuming the program goes well, off course ;-) ). Once the program has good credibilitiy, morphing it into the regular school day should be smoother.
One last thought. In one of my recent programs, there was one boy who was very focused, and he and his partner (who was less so) were the first to finish a robot in that group. I a later conversation with his mother I learned that he is "learning disabled". I wasn't born yesterday, and we've done foster care for nearly 20 years, but I didn't see anything indicating this guy was "learning disabled."
Good Luck!
I work part time as a substitute teacher in our school district. I'm the one that is called to sub for the ag and shop classes because they think I know what I'm doing. HaHa. I've noticed that the kids put in these classes are the ones that don't want to be in school. I've also noticed that the guidence councelor, who places kids in classes at our school, has no clue what goes on in a wood or metal shop. Make sure the person placing the kids knows what is expected in the class. Good luck.
Steve
I taught H.S. shop for ten years in the 70's. You are absolutely right when you expect to get the kids that have zero interest in education. Most of them are just putting their "time in". The guidance department will steer the "better" students toward academic oriented classes. I'm sure you may get some students that are looking for a rewarding experience but the rest will make it hell. It took me ten years to realize I was not going to spend the rest of my life baby sitting kids that had no interest in being in school. Sorry for the negative, but if it's not fun, why are you doing it???
Bear
Hey Todd,
If you haven't already, you should pay a visit to The Center for Wooden Boats, in Seattle. They have successfully run an alternatifve school boatbuilding program for students that have had a tough time in the regular school program.
The CWB's youth programs are a model for success in any field, but wooden boatbuilding is their speciatlty.
Good luck,
Tom
Todd
My entire woodworking experience began in 8th grade wood shop. I took it because I needed a credit hour. I didn't know at the time that it would become my life. If you can steer 1 or 2 lost souls in the right direction, it will be worth it in the long run.
Jeff
QB,
My 2 cents goes with JIMMACMAHON. He says it so well.
Out of those kids there may be a Maloof or a Stickley. Sometimes "book learning" is not what a person needs as much, as opening their eyes with their hands.
I helped a young fella a couple of years ago complete his "senor project". It is a requirement that all senors at his school complete some sort of "hands on" project in order to graduate. In his case he already had a scholarship(baseball) to a 4 year school. He wanted to build a swing. Told him we would do it, but it was up to him to make time and he would be the one to finish it up, not me. Took him 6 weeks couple hrs at a time. Didn't know a TS from a belt sander when he started.
Long story short. He is dean's list in Polymer Science. Says he's gonna develop uv proof coating for outdoor furniture. Supports his back pocket building outdoor furniture and small cabinets. Who would have thought.....
Same story can be said for some of those kids who don't want to be in school.
Good luck with your decision
Jimmy
as always I wish you enough
Hi Todd - I have no experience to offer, but since it's voluntary on your part, would it be feasible to have a brief interview with each of the students applying for the class?
Sounds like a great course!
I think everyone here is right. There will be kids that get a lot out of it and kids that are there because they aren't good at school. There will be kids you love and kids you, ummm, don't love. There will be parts of it you love and parts you hate.
The decision is entirely yours, you've been in academia long enough to know what to expect. I am the product of a vocational program so I'm all for them however I do remember that there were fellow students in the progam that were dumber than the boards they mutilated. There were also a few that were there because they wanted to be.
I could put you in contact with a couple of shop teachers but neither are in your area. I know one in Spokane and one in Illinois. Send me an email if you want their addresses.
Lee
"...to teach what at best could be only a mediocre program..."
If your statement reflects your attitude and belief in your abilities and the program's future then I suggest you stick to science. In my business, I would find it very hard to back any project or the executive that approached me in this way.
Doug
Edited 3/20/2005 9:02 am ET by Doug
I've taught and been taught by people who were only "One chapter ahead of me" and the classes were quite good.Something about the "pressure" of others relying on you could help you rise to the challenge.Good luck in your decision.Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Where to start? First, I'm a former vocational instructor, I taught carpentry and cabinetmaking. A vocational course is quite different from a shop class, industrial arts or youth alternatives program. If there are any houses, cars, restaurants, children, computers, hair salons,etc. in your area, the vocational opportunities for employment are limitless. Vocational courses are set up to train students in entry level job skills. They seek to give students competencies in their related fields. A successful carpentry student will have had hands on experience with many of the processes that a carpenter would normally face. They may not be experts at any of them, but they will know quite a bit and have more exposure than most.
Vocational programs are well supported throughout the country. Many folks are not aware of the many things they do, and the opportunities they offer students of all kinds. Back 10-15 years ago, the programs required students to be in the vocational classroom for several hours. This meant that they did not have the time to take all of the necessary college prep classes that are required. This is how the distinction between college bound and vocational started. Many vocational schools have changed, so that students can attend vocational courses and still have the necessary credits if they choose to go on to college. Many schools offer these required courses in house and some of the better teachers and systems, integrate things like math, physics and others with the students vocational studies. Remember the part about 'competency'. Almost every student studies mixed numbers in grade school. Their typical academic classes are theoretical. Students complete the class but still have no idea how these are used and applied in the real world, they soon forget how to use fractions. A carpentry student is using a measuring tape day after day, doing all kinds of real world computations. They are adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing mixed numbers. They are using Pythagorean theory to layout stairs, rafters, squaring up foundations and other applications. This is just one example of the many possibilities for vocational education.
Vocational curriculums are developed with a great deal of thought and input from industry and the community. Vocational instructors can't graduate from college and start teaching like academic teachers can. They have to work in their trade areas and become solid journeyman before a vocational certificate is granted. As far as I know, every state has a dacum, which is a list of skills that the vocational instructors in conjunction with industry and community businesses, have drawn up to guide their classes curriculum. Safety is one of the most important topics. You will be entrusted with the health and safety of peoples children in your class. You will want to develop rigorous classes to ensure that students are well trained before they pull the switch on a saw, climb a scaffold, use chemicals, etc.
These will be skills that they will carry through life and the training should be thorough.
There is a vast amount of support for such programs. Most state universities have a department for training instructors in vocational needs. Courses run a wide gamut from dealing with special needs students, curriculum development, class management to OSHA compliance. There are many vocational organizations for instructors on the national level as well as the state and local level. NVA (National Vocational Association), Vica (Vocational Industrial Clubs of America). My program was supported by the local Rotary club. We built a house every year, the land and materials were bought by the club and these expenses were recouped with the sale of the house. A fellow carpentry instructor taught in a rural area of our state. This was an area that is mostly woods and logging was a major industry. There were often a few logs that were left on the landings that would go to waste. He got permission to take these and had them sawn into lumber. His students built sheds and small camps with the lumber and sold them to support the program. The possibilities are endless for someone with a little ingenuity.
Because of the former structure of vocational classes, they were often used as a dumping ground for disruptive students. Many of these kids just were never successful in the traditional class setting. This changes rapidly when they are actually able to fit in and accomplish tasks in a hands on environment. The one on one interaction with an instructor changes the whole learning experience. That's not to say you won't get some students that aren't manageable. With a strong safety program, disruptive students can be culled out due to concerns for other students health.
Not every student will be successful or accomplish all the programs intentions. I had some students that rapidly moved up once they went to work in the industry. Some started their own contracting business after a couple years of work experience. Others that didn't have that capacity are working as roofers, vinyl siding installer or carpet layers. They have all found an employment niche commensurate with their capabilities.
Building a boat is a good way to start a more meaningful program. I'm of the opinion that students should leave school with skills that are marketable and relate to the real world. A diploma doesn't mean much if you can't do anything that employers need you to be able to do. You have been presented with an opportunity to make a real difference in some students lives. It will be up to you to put some real meat in their experience in your class. Take the time to go visit programs that are in your state. Put in a request for a professional development day. You will be amazed at what some are doing. There's a good possibility that there are some state Vica competitions going on right now, a visit to one of these will show you some of the things that vocational programs are accomplishing. I think your aspirations for your program will take a giant leap after you discover what others are doing. Please ask if there is anything I can do to help you.
"A carpentry student is using a measuring tape day after day, doing all kinds of real world computations. They are adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing mixed numbers. They are using Pythagorean theory to layout stairs, rafters, squaring up foundations and other applications. This is just one example of the many possibilities for vocational education."
You have made a VERY good point -- BUT!!!
And the "but" is:
The reality of the above represents a Gross Shame on the so-called "teachers" of the subject!
I am a former college instructor.
I've seen it first hand.
The very same C.C. I taught at used three accredited classes to get students transfered to University with "College Algebra" credits.
This same C.C. offered a "Vocational Math" class that taught all three "academic" class materials on a practical level in a single 3-hour credit class -- and it did it a whole lot better for a whole lot less money!
HOWEVER ! ! ! !
That course was worthless for University transfer credits in Math.
Oh My! "SHOP MATH" (imho) is what should be taught -- especially at the HS levels. If/When Algebra & Trig & Calc are sort of wrapped into a "This is how the world goes around" course, teachers will be forced to focus on the realities of the world and students won't/wouldn't be intimidated by the names of the various levels of Math.
-- Steve
Enjoy life & do well by it;
http://www.ApacheTrail.com/ww/
Edited 3/21/2005 3:56 pm ET by Putzger
Thanks for all the input. I have a lot to think over. I will let you all know what happens and what I decide to do. Todd Miller
They are adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing mixed numbers. They are using Pythagorean theory to layout stairs, rafters, squaring up foundations and other applications. This is just one example of the many possibilities for vocational education."
I gave the teacher a copper dish I hammerd out for his family and he smiled!
I still go at 'B"???
Todd, your email bounced.
Lee
I've been teaching "shop" now for almost 30 years and here (in no particular order) are my thoughts.
1. The teacher is the program. It will be what you make it.
2. Get ready to spend some long hours. To make these programs work (especially with the student that is "failing everything else") the tools have to be working, supplies have to be there and you have to know the processes. Setting up tools during class time leads to bored students. If you have everything except "a couple of items" you are nowhere. You cannot get back the week or two that a student spends waiting for supplies - they instead get bored and lose interest. The skill that you display while demonstrating sets the tone. If you are clumsy and amateurish students lose respect for you.
3. Test the commitment from the administration. Many times these people are oblivious to the effort and expense required to get something like this started. When the bills roll in their support rolls out.
4. The uninterested student is a product of our society. Drug use, child abuse, television, poverty, unemployment and the list goes on and on. If the whole class was motivated, skilled, well behaved and intelligent they wouldn't need you - they would teach themselves. You cannot "save" them all and they are not puppies (you can't take them home) but more than likely you will make a significant difference with many.
The uninterested student is a product of our society...I have never taught children cept mine and my grandbabies...
I think I did a good job..I was a Instructor for a large company (Now belly up) for a few years..You should try to teach ADULTS!!! Kids are easy!
I teach adults for a living. Great work if you can get it. Oh and I've done it for 10 years. Never had a student I couldn't deal with. And yes some "check out" or are prisoners in the room. Surface the issue early and deal with it in the class...I've not taught kids much (Soccer coach stuff and raising my three) but I think adults are easier.Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
I had a REAL advantage.. Unlike a school teacher.. I could kick them out!I forgot.. I'd get the good students Coffee and Donuts.. Cept' fer the troublemaker...
Edited 3/21/2005 2:39 pm ET by Will George
Soccer coach DANG!I coached Girls Softball! Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.. I had A Young Lady Umpire to back me up though!
Your adults may be tough, but try 14-18 yr. old. YOUNG ADULTS!
I hear ya!
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