Hi,
Anybody here familiar with Lee Valley bevel edged chisels? I was planning on purchasing 2 bevel edged chisels.. sizes 1/4″ and 3/8th”. but it mentioned in the small print that the side bevels are not ground as close to the chisel face as with other lines, and went on to say that this might be limiting in a specialized use like cutting dovetails.
So I thought I might order the Hirsch Firmer chisel instead. But if you ask me the edges on the Hirsch firmer chisel blades look indentical to the Lee Valley Bench chisel.
I am searching for a moderately priced quality dovetail chisel.. Would the Hirsch firmer chisel ($21.50) be ok for dovetailing.. getting into the corners???? The Lie Nielson chisels are a bit pricey.
Wanda
Replies
Wanda,
All my firmer chisels have square sides (ie. non-beveled) and, therefore, not so good for dovetails. Personally, I like a fairly short chisel for dovetails, I think they are easier to control and most often use a Japanese chisel. For the deep corners I bought a couple of carving tools...they help a lot.
Wanda,
Take a look at these:
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=1993
Decent quality, strong, a fairly thin bevel for getting into corners on dovetails and such, good edge holding, pretty easy to sharpen, and not outrageously expensive. Only caveat is that since they are hardened to Rc 62 - 64, they're a touch on the brittle side, so you wouldn't want to use them for doing any kind of prying (i.e., during mortising), because it will likely break a chip/chunk off of the tip/edge.
FWIW, I've been using them for about 3 years now as general purpose bench chisels and am pretty happy with them. They work fine for dovetails.
You might also take a look at a (left and right hand pair of) ¼" or 3/8" skew chisels for getting into really tight corners; somewhat specialised, but very useful when you need them.
Hope this is of some use to you.
Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Wanda,
The Hirsch mortise chisels would not be good at all for dovetails. These are massive chisels designed for heavy duty chopping of mortises. You need a bevel edge chisel, but I am not familiar with LV's. You don't need LN either. There are many suitable brands of chisels at reasonable prices. I have the Pfiel's from Woodcraft.
Randy.
Hi Randy,
Yes, fortunately for me choosing a mortising chisel is a lot easier than choosing a bevel edged chisel. I own a massive 1/4" Hirsch mortising chisel which I purchased from LeeValley. Definitely not something you'd use for dovetails.... :)
Wanda
sorry....... I didn't read your original post carefully enough.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 1/27/2007 2:43 pm by highfigh
Check out Tools for Working Wood. They carry Ashley Iles skewed chisels in the $30 range. The skew is perfect for getting into the corners of dovetails.
Hi guys,
Thanks for the info. Now I feel like a complete idiot. I thought Hirsch firmer chisels were pretty much general purpose chisels. Guess I just assumed they'd be ok for dovetailing. I should have watched Ros Cosman's video on dovetails before buying that chisel. God, it's so much Easier choosing mortising chisels.
Now I must check out those chisels you mentioned. Lee Valley sells 2 different styles of Japanese dovetail chisels. Are they sharpened the same way general purpose chisels are sharpened? The backside of those chisels are concave aren't they. Plus they are a little more expensive.
I'll definitely check out that woodworking site you mentioned. Might cost less in the long run if I order the Japanese chisels from LeeValley rather than having to order chisels from from the States.
Wanda
Wanda
Keep in mind that you can take a chisel with a thicker side, and regrind it so that it becomes a dovetail chisel. Not difficult to do, and doesn't require an addition purchase. If you have some chisels that you like, but they won't fit into the tight corners, then just regrind to make them fit. You'd only need to do the first inch or so, depending on the thickness of your stock.
Jeff
Wanda, ya don't need a brace of dove tail chisels, just one or possibly two so buy them well (LV is a very good choice) while your firmers will serve you well to wack out hinge reliefs or letting in of locks or strike plates. The skew (l&r) also come in very handy and need not be of world class quality due to the lesser usage but hone them super sharp and you will be happy. All the best, Paddy the Newf (all be it a narrowback)
Wanda,
If you had a set of each brand of bench chisels in front of you, and all were beautifully sharpened, I'll bet you wouldn't find much difference in their ability to cut dovetails.
It is true that some of them will dull quicker than others, but then again, chisels are not that hard to hone. I have seen great woodworkers work wonders with cheap Irwin (formerly Marples) chisels.
Almost everyone on Knots says "Buy the best tools you can afford." That is, almost everyone but me. I believe that it is absolutely foolish for a newbie, who has not learned how to use a grindstone, to buy a set of Lie Nielsen's to practice sharpening on. Indeed, it is insane. If you do not have a lot of experience in sharpening, just buy any set of used chisels, and practice away!!! You'll be able to chop lots of dovetails with them. Then when you are good at sharpening, and you are experienced enough to notice the difference between a set of Lie Nielsen and a set of Marples, then sell the used chisels for the same price you bought them for, and buy the good ones.
If you are already good at sharpening, then you probably know a lot more about chisels than you are letting on.
I own the Hirsch bench chisels which are sold by Lee Valley. They are just fine for the dovetailing that I do. If I did a lot of chisel work, then I would own five or six sets of chisels, one for each use. As Frank Klaus shows on his video on dovetailing, it is nice to use a short set of chisels because they are easier to hold straight up.
I am a FIRM believer in two things:
"Guns don't kill. People kill."
"Tools don't make furniture. People make furniture."
Skill is far more important than the quality of the tool (in most cases). Most of the great woodworkers on Knots could probably make better dovetails than I can, with a set of lousier chisels. That says more about their skills than about the goodness of the tool.
I always recommend buying used tools (unless you are rich), and increasing your skills, and then selling the used tool for what you paid for it, and then buying a tool that you are ready to appreciate, to get the most out of, and to treat properly.
Hope you enjoyed this highly non-standard response. My standard response on "What Chisels should I buy?" from newer woodworkers is always the same. "Used", and "Marples if fine. They are used in some good woodworking schools." BUT if you are Bill Gates, I not only recommend that you buy two sets of all tools, but that you also buy the companies that make the tools.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hello 9619,
I have to confess I am one of those people who believes that you should buy the best you can afford. Buy big and you'll never be disappointed. But it this case I have to agree with you.. I have little experience when it comes to using chisels.
Don't worry I am not crazy I am not about to dish out $300 on a set of Lie Nielson chisels when I don't even know how to sharpen the darn things. I am a complete novice when it comes to chisels. Besides there are many other ways to join drawers together besides dovetailing. So I don't need a slew of chisels. So far I've only had to use a chisel to clean up the dadoes on a few drawer sides. I keep a "utility" Fuller chisel around the workshop for doing rough carpentry.
Actually I will be doing more mortising than dovetailing. Most of the material I work with is usually 3/4" wide so that's why I purchased a 1/4" Hirsch mortising chisel. I can always use the larger size chisel 3/4" for cleaning up the sides. I don't need a high end chisel for that.
You mentioned that you have LeeValley Hirsch "bench" chisels.. do you mean Firmer chisels? The only other Hirsch chisels I know that LeeValley sells are Mortising chisels.
For Now I think I will just purchase the 3/8 and 1/4" LV bevel edged chisels. If they're ok for dovetailing they're good enough for me. I find shorter handled chisels a lot easier to handle. I already have 1/2, 3/4" and 1" Mastercraft chisels.. which are basically utility chisels which I can practice my sharpening skills on without having to worry about ruining the edges. When I perfect my chiseling skills... I might consider investing in better quality chisels.
One more ? for you... Are you familiar with the Narvex chisels that LeeValley sells.
I'll go back to watching Ros Cosman's dvd on Drawer Making the professional Approach. :)
Wanda
Wanda,
I have the Hirsch firmer chisels. I also have some miscellaneous chisels that I bought for a dollar or two that I used to practice grinding. I encourage you to learn to cut dovetails by hand, and with a jig, and with a few more jigs. Then you'll probably find that if you have to make two drawers, you can do it faster by hand then by setting up a jig. But if you have to do 100 drawers for a business deal, you probably want to use a good jig.It is a lot of fun cutting dovetails by hand, and it is not all that hard. Have fun. Waste some wood and an afternoon. I bet you'll learn very fast. Too many people try to make it a mystery that can only be solved with an Adria saw and Lie Nielsen chisels. IT AIN"T THAT WAY.Look at the photos of Tage Frid cutting dovetails with a big ol bow saw. Ray Pine uses a Gent's saw. I use a Dozuki. IT DOESN"T MATTER. You can cut dovetails with a hacksaw. Now I admit it is easier to cut them with a nice Dozuki (at least for me). Find out what works best for you. But I guarantee you that the skills involved are far more important than the tools. I also guarantee you that most novices at a tool can't tell the difference between a cheap and an expensive one. When you get good at using a tool, then I believe that if you have the funds, and you are good enough to recognize the difference between a good and a poor tool, then it is time to use the good tool.In any case, have fun.
Read Lataxe's response to you. He is smarter than I am and he is a better woodworker.
Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I have a set of Hirsch firmers, and find them a good quality chisel. I would think that the Narex would be a little soft, and hard to keep sharp. I did a lot of fine chisel work with some Craftsman butt chisel, and they worked fine as well. Those firmers ar a good shop chisel, and are easy to keep sharp.
Pedro.
Mel,
You state:
I am a FIRM believer in two things:"Guns don't kill. People kill.""Tools don't make furniture. People make furniture."
Hmmm. Well, the guns make it a lot easier for the people to kill; and tools certainly allow one to make furniture that might prove difficult to construct with just the teeth and fingernails.
In fact, better tools can make one a better (ie more capable) woodworker. Do you deny it?
"Better" may mean faster; or conducive to easier work (in performing complex tasks). After my experience in sawing and paring seemingly endless DTs in drawer parts today, I can tell you that a woodrat and its router will do a much faster job with more precision for an EQUIVALENT amount of effort and skill on my part. In this sense, the woodrat is better than the handtools (for 99.5% of DTs, anyway).
Of course, one may choose to work with handtools for many reasons but they are not better (in the above sense) than machine tools, for workaday woodworking tasks at least.
"Better" may mean more fit for purpose; more resilient; functionally superior. I can tell you from experience that Veritas, Lie Nielsen and Marcou planes all work far, far better than an equivalent Record plane. And that Two Cherries chisels hold their edges a lot longer than Marples blue-handled affairs; and are better to hold. A European TS is an inherently better design than a unisaw-style TS (build quality/materials being equal).
***
Fair enough - a very skilled worker can do wonders with poor tools. But no one starts out with superior skills. In practice, use of poor tools is unlikely to help make a novice skilled as fast as the good ones will, for both psychogical and ergonomic reasons. Again, I speak from my own experience. I have bought more than once and done the extra crying in the process.
In short, I disagree with your advice for novices to buy lesser tools than they can afford or aspire to. It will waste their time, effort and money. It might even frustrate them to the point that they give up or reduce their ambitions.
I await your refutations, sir! :-)
Lataxe
Lataxe,
I never do battle with those I know to be stronger and more intelligent than I. So rather than come back at you with a refutation, I will let you peek into the innermost workings of my soul. I will tell you my deepest woodworking values and beliefs, which caused me to answer Wanda the way I did. Once you know my highest value in woodworking, you will know the most important thing about me, and it will explain everything else.Every aspiring woodworker must attain knowledges, skills and attitudes to become good. Knowledges (pine is soft) are the easiest to learn. Skills (how to use a backsaw to cut to a line) take more time and effort to learn than knowledges. But ATTITUDES are, by far, the most impportant thing to a woodworker (IMHO). Obviously an attitude towards safety is necessary to survive in woodworking. So what is the most important thing than a woodworker can have?
My answer is: An attitude of self-reliance. I want a new woodworker to come to believe in their own ability to gather information and skills to solve problems, even when others are not around to teach and help. I want a new woodworker to learn to make their own decisions, RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING. There is nothing more important than the woodworker's sovreignty. To learn the attitude of self sufficiency, one must NEVER do anything which gives the responsibility for your decisions to others. You can, should and must ask for information with which you yourself will make a decision. NOW LET ME BE LOUD AND BLUNT. I recommend that a woodworker NEVER ask someone else to recommend a desision. I recommend that a woodworker NEVER ask "which brand should I buy?" or "Which tool should I buy?" No one else can know what is best for you. Most people who answer you will not tell you what is best for you, but they will tell you what decision they made. Now you know what other people did and you don't know why, or you know "sound bites" like "I always buy the best". But you have not learned to think and reason for your self.I recommend that the newbie ask questions like: what are the aspects of a bowsaw that I should pay attention to in making a selection, and what made you say those things? Now the newbie is keeping the decision-making for themself! HURRAH. He/she is merely asking for the experience of others to know what things might be useful to consider.In telling Wanda that virtually any chisels will work for her, and giving her information about the similarities between chisels, I was trying to get Wanda to think for herself and make her own decisions.In another message in this thread, Wanda asked Adam Cherubini which sharpening system she should buy. I didn't respond to that. My suggestion is that Wanda spend a great deal of time reading past threads on sharpening, and buying Lee's book on sharpening, and learning for herself the pros and cons of each, and then asking for clarification, and for more info. BUT I recommend that no one ever ask which system or which brand to buy, because you are giving up sovreignty. You are giving someone else control over your life. The more you do this, the poorer your ATTITUDE is toward taking responsibility for your own decisions.Now you know why I suggest that people think about buying "less than the best". IT is because I believe that approach will cause them to think more. The main result will be another building block in the wall of a GREAT ATTITUDE - self reliance.As Paul Harvey says, "And now you know the rest of the story." I will never be able to fool you again. You now know that my goal is to get all newbies to be RUGGED INDIVIDUALISTS. That is a primary attitude I wanted my kids to have. You obviously have it. I don't think of any woodworker as even "adequate" unless they are a rugged individualists who takes resposibility for their own decisions. This is infinitely more important than having "the best tools". If you have the attitude of self sufficiency, you focus on getting and attaining whatever it takes to do great things. You don't focus on "having the best", but on "Doing the best". I value the latter much higher than the former. I believe there is someone on Knots with a tag line which reads something like "If you don't think well, then you shouldn't think too much." I answer newbies on Knots and elsewhere, not by TELLING them which tools to buy, but by URGING them to learn to "think good" and to think for themselves.I hope that you judge me well as a result of my response to you. THis was not an easy message to write. It made my brain hurt. But even if you don't judge me well, you know that I have arrived at my philosophy on my own. If a reader of Knots wants to hear "Buy the Holtey.", or "Buy the best", they will hear it from many others. From me, they will get only an exhortation to learn to think for themselves, and information on where to get more information on the question they asked. In short, Lataxe, I want newbies to learn to be more like you.Enjoy.
Mel
PS In my philosophy, the purpose of any Teacher is to convince the student that the student can learn on their own. Unfortunately many teachers want you to become reliant on them, not on yourself. Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I knew you wouldn't be abe to resist. :-) But you can stop with that flattery!
There is a tension between your recommendation that all woodworkers should be self-reliant (ie make their own decisions) and your recommendation that they also seek advice from those with experience and knowledge. You resolve this by suggesting that the advice sought should concern how to make a decision, not a decision per se.
That is a good resolution of the tension; but then you undermine it by disallowing even generic advice about what should inform the decision making. Replying to "What should I buy in order to....." with advice such as, "Buy the best of the type of thing you want and that you can afford" and, "Get multi-purpose tools rather than single purpose ones of equivalent functionality" is not the same as repying, "Get Model T of Brand X".
Of course, these generic "decision-making rules" should be elaborated and given context. This is why a question is best framed to be very specific rather than a general query. Advice about "how to decide on a good quality smoothing plane for use on difficult hardwoods of type X and Y when I have $250" is a lot easier to give than is advice to answer, "What's the best way to cut dovetails".
Another point: we should honour the intent of a question-poster. If Wanda wants to know about Hirsch chisel-type X we should assume she knows that that is the question she wants to ask. It's a bit of a politician's trick to repy with, "Ah, you're asking the wrong question; and here is my stock answer to the question I would prefer to answer, which allows me to dish out some of my personal propoganda".
Lastly, it is also a cop-out (I feel) to say, "Buy anything and then let your experience with this guide your next purchase". The person seeking advice might justifiaby reply, "Thanks a bunch".
As to Wanda's chisel question, my advice (in the context of being something of a newbie myself in the chisel area) is:
* Hirch bench chisels can be used for DTs but if you are wanting to pare into the corners of small, tight DTs some chisels with a sharper arris to their sides would be an advantage. (I will be getting a couple of additions to my Hirch for this purpose; or you could reshape the rather upright sides of a Hirch, should you be so-inclined).
* I find skew chisels more effective at paring the end grain of DT bottoms than square-ended chisels, because they have 25 rather than 30 degree bevels and the point of the skew helps to locate the chisel more easily. You can also push them at different angles across the pin or tail "floors", to more-easily deal with bumps left by, for instance, a coping saw. I can't find a skew less than 1/4 inch wide (and that's a pair of expensive LNs) which is a bit of a nuisance. Hirch seem to to stop at 10mm with their skews.
* Square-ended chisels seem more effective for paring the sides of the pins or tails, however, as you want to take an even shaving across the whole side. I am tempted to change the 30 degree bevel of my Hirch to 25 degrees, as they are never used with a mallet to chop. Pointy bevels seem to cut across long grain better, as with a shouder plane used on tenons.
Lataxe the verbose
Lataxe,
You may try to tag yourself with "Lataxe the verbose", but next to me, you are "Lataxe the taciturn." You said to stop with the flattery. I gotta tell ya that it is not flattery. I really enjoy exchanges with you because you speak knowledgeably and you care about seeking good answers rather than standing on past ways. It is not fun discussing things with people with identical views (if such a beast could ever exist). Luckily, while we have similar dispositions, we still have some different ideas on woodworking. I will try to delve further into the guts of the issue. I have found a way to say my entire last message (over 60,000 words) more simply, but I stole the sentence. Here it is: Give a person a fish, and you feed them for a day. 'Teach them to fish, and you feed them for a lifetime."Now to amplify the difference in our views. You hold that one should honor the intent of the asker of a question. You and I could not be farther apart on that issue. If someone asks me how to make explosives, I am not at all interested in their intent. I believe that answering the intent of the naive question-asker is what causes so much confusion on Knots. You pointed out the politician's way of changing the question. That is what I recommend. You know me. I am never mean or unkind. When someone asks a question which I do not think is in the best interest of the asker, I come back with a recommended change of question. I try to do it nicely.My belief that one should take the responsibility for one's own decisions is not only my suggested approach to woodworking, but my suggested approach to life (after all, what is the difference?). Werner Erhard's "Erhard Seminar Training" was based on the simple premise that "if you don't take control of your own life, someone else will." One doesn't become self-confident in a day. One does not lose self confidence in a day. It it built up over years based on the things you do. One doesn't become obese in one day of eating a second piece of cheesecake. But that second piece on one day makes it easier to do the second time, and then the third. The effect is slow and insidious. But it is VERY REAL and VERY BAD.Asking someone else to take responsibility for your decision is the same thing. IT is insidious. Soon you do it again, and then again, and then it becomes a way of life. IMHO, the really important function of a teacher is to get a student to teach a student how to take control of their own learning, and "Learning never stops." To me, "learning" is the same thing as "Living". By asking someone else, which chisel should I buy, you are having the second piece of cheesecake. IT IS TOO EASY. IT relieves you of having to think or take responsibility. It is my hope that Wanda and all newbies take a different path than asking others "Which tool should I buy?" Let's go to her second question, "Which form of sharpening should I use?" She had just said that she does not want to use waterstones because the stones don't stay flat. She stated that she has no experience with sharpening.Of course, my answer to her on sharpening is the same as on chisels. I am nothing, if not consistent. For a newbie, it doesn't make much difference which chisels you use because the only real difference is that the cheaper ones will have to be sharpened a little more often. So I changed the question to, "think about buying cheap used ones, and using them to learn to use them, and then sell them. Then get good chisels when you can understand what you are buying." So for sharpening, my answer is: "It doesn't make any difference which sharpening system you use. Pick whichever is cheapest and easiest to get at and try it out. Once you figure out what sharp means, and how to achieve it using that system, you can learn any of the other systems very quickly. Each has advantages and limitations. Get a book on sharpening, study it, pick a method and try it."So my answer is not to "Honor her intent, but to change her intent, and to invite her to stand up on two legs and take responsibility and make a decision herself." I would suggest Scary Sharp only because it is cheap. It has a few other features such as you can take small increments of decrease in grit size, whereas with a Tormek, you go from the grinding wheel to the strop in one step. Also you are less likely to burn up a chisel with Scary sharp than with a fast small grinder. I find that too many on Knots want to give answers which are too specific because they want to "Keep the mystery in woodworking". I want to dissolve all of the mysteries, since I have learned that there are none. It is simple and easy to learn to chop mortises, to make tenons, to make dovetails and to do sharpening. Any person with an IQ of 80 can learn these things quickly. All it takes is the time and effort to give it a shot, using whatever tools are handy, and you'll learn in a few days (or sooner).Here is what I told my kids time after time when they were growing up-- I want you to learn to think for yourselves. I want you to make your own mistakes. I want you to go out and see the world and try things and see what works for you. I want you to learn to question things and come to your own conclusions. I want you to have inquiring minds rather than to be blind believers in anything.A simpler approach would have been to dominate them, and give them MY answer to everything, and to let them know that any other answer is WRONG. I must have lucked out. All three kids turned out well. One Ph.D. and two Masters degrees. To this day, if I tell them something, they come back with questions about WHY? That proves that I have succeeded. That is what I want for Wanda. I want her to become self confident (not arrogant), and to take control. I don't want to see Wanda's shop in five years and see waterstones, oilstones, a Tormek and sandpaper and glass. Pick anything and learn to make it work. The secret is that none of this is rocket science and almost anything works (as long as it is safe). So make your own decision based on information from others, not on suggested decisions by others.Like I said in my last message to you, I want Wanda to become more like you.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I hereby cede you the title "Verbose of Knots". :-)
Here is the passage from your post that worries me, because it has that black & white sound of ideology - of systemized beliefs applied to all aspects of everything no matter what the context:
My belief that one should take the responsibility for one's own decisions is not only my suggested approach to woodworking, but my suggested approach to life (after all, what is the difference?). Werner Erhard's "Erhard Seminar Training" was based on the simple premise that "if you don't take control of your own life, someone else will."
This leaves everyone in a situation where they cannot expect help or succor but must "make their own way" in all circumstances and no matter what their character, personality, abilities, education or other background. It represents a sort of crude social Darwinism in which everyone must be a 100%-competent individual at all times; or be left to wither and fail.
Perhaps I am a weakling, but many times I prefer someone else to control aspects of my life. If they didn't I would do terrible things, one way or another - bad for me and bad for others. Control by, and of, others is what a society consists of. We can discuss the desirable degrees of this control, if you like. But can we dispense with it?
In fact humans learn not only by "rationalising the facts" into a decision but, largely, by imitating others and taking their advice on trust. Their decision is, critically, about who to imitate and listen to; and why this is likely to be more successful than imitating or listening to someone else.
This is not to say that you are wrong to encourage learning how to learn. But I think you are wrong about what learning consists of. It is not confined to a purely Rationalist weighing of experiential "facts" that one must gather for oneself. That kind of learning is only available once you have acquired, by imitation, lots of other knowledge and skill, including the skill to make judgements, to choose which experiences to have and to judge experience more objectively.
It is highly unlikely that a child given a set of books and a calculator will somehow learn to read and do math, without imitative and directed learning first. The same applies to woodworkers with little or no current knowledge of the subject - tossing them a bag of randomly selected tools and timber will not enable them to somehow work out how to construct a cabinet. They need first to imitate (via books, videos, classes, a WW friend) the basic procedures before they can apply judgements to differentiate or choose their own style and modes with wood.
In previous times, it was called apprenticeship. Whilst some apprentices were neglected or exploited, many learnt wholly by imitation and only later in their careers were they able to branch out and learn for themselves. Was this such a bad mode of early education in a skill?
Nowadays we all tend to use the books, videos and classes to learn. But it is essentially the same thing as an apprenticeship - imitation of trusted experts. We do not discover our world (of woodworking in this case) like castaways alone on an island.
This is good, as it is a little known fact that most castaways fall out the coconut tree on the first attempt and die of the gangrene in their broken leg within the week! There was no island native to show them the technique or how to make the rope helper from the right kind of vine.
Lataxe, copycat and willing apprentice of The Knots Denizens
Lataxe,
Yup.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hey Mel,
You crack me up, buddy.
Ray
Ray,I had my gall bladder out last Friday, and am not in shape to do much besides read and type, so I have been reading and typing, as you have seen. My guess is that I will be back to normal in two more days, and Lataxe and I will stop tormenting each other. And someone else will have to crack you up. I enjoy doing woodwork much more than writing about it, but it still hurts to move my stomach muscles. I have been having fun trying to translate "Das Kerbschnitzen" into English. After I finish, I'll be able to tell if any of the tools that are displayed at your tool collectors meeting are authentic German chip carving tools. Of course, by the time I finish translating it, many of the current members will no longer be attending the meetings. Will you be at the Feb. meeting?Mel
PS - So Ray, I have been thinking of buying a CNC machine. What brand to you recommend that I buy? :-)Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Sorry you had to have surgery, glad you are on the mend. I guess I'll be at the tool collector's meeting. What say you and I put together a display of "shop-made tools" I know you have a plane, I bet you have something more, and I have several tools, both antique and ones I've made.
Ich wil helfen sie in dem translationeshes--Ich hatte eine yahre von Deutch, im schule, in neunzehn und seibenzig, das ist gut genug, ja?
My knowledge of CNC machines is as deep as that of the German language. I hear that Sears, Roebuck, & Co has one. That's good enough, right?
Best wishes for a speedy recovery,
Ray
Ray,Du speakest real gutes Dutsche!!! I would be happy to put my plane in your display. I have not made other tools, but I have a few jigs that I am proud of. I guess that jigs are tools. One is the tenon jig in the photo of me on Knots, and another is a Tage Frid -type U-shaped jig for mortising with a router. Another is a dado cutting jig. It would be easy to put all three in my van. If you think they go in the display, then do it. If not, there are absolutely no hard feelings. I am excited about making some more tools, but I am a beginner. I will retire this year, and then WATCH OUT!!!!!!!!. I am going to give Marcou and Holtey a run for their money!!! (fat chance)Hey, I bought a 1922 book on "Modernistic Chip Carving" and the author said that you should go out and buy "a flat chisel of the old type" (which makes it a really old chisel now) and modify it to do "six-cut" chip carving. So I bought a brand new Pfeil chisel and "thinned it to 3/32" as required, and put the desired double bevel and skew on it. I could use it to give demonstrations of the old German "sechs schnitten" chip carving technique, and let people try their hand at removing a chip the old German way. Anyway, let me know if you think any of these ideas are useful.
AND I will wear my new 2-lb leather apron with Kevlar thread. :-)Have fun, and thanks for the invitation.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I'll get in touch with the powers-that-be in the tool collectors group, and see if they would be interested. Not being familiar with the meeting site in Broadway, it may or may not be feasible to do the display/demo this tiome. I'll let you know.
Ray
Ray,
Roger that.
MelPS. See! The Betty Ford Rambling Clinic worked. I am cured.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
If only I'd realised you had a sore operation site - I would have found ways to make you laugh, as pain and pleasure often go together. Or so I'm told - such knowledge will always remain theoretical for me and I seek no apprenticeship in the subject, oh no. :-)
Anyway, I hope you recover quickly and completely, as it is becoming quite hard to read all your rambling and I am tempted to ramble even more in response. You are a ramble-trap for the unwary, such as moi.
Look! I'm at it again already!!
Lataxe, offering virtual grapes and real well-wishes.
Lataxe,
I just was released from the Betty Ford Rambling Clinic. I am cured of rambling. Never again. It was the drugs from the surgery. :-)My surgery incision is almost healed. Surely by next week it will all be over with. Our conversation was enjoyable, as always, my friend.
Danke shoen.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hello Mel,
Quite the conversation we have going here... didn't think my ?'s regarding chisels and sharpening methods would get such a response.
"She had just said that she does not want to use waterstones because the stones don't stay flat. She stated that she has no experience with sharpening."
In one of my posts I believe I said I didn't want to use (Japanese waterstones) Not that I didn't want to use waterstones. Please correct me If I'm mistaken. From the various woodworking articles I've read (Popular Woodworking, Fine Woodworking magazine and from individuals here on the forum) Japenese Waterstones are narrower and not as hard as the Norton Waterstones. As far as sharpening systems go Norton has an excellent reputation.
Mel, I forgot to mention in my post that I have a wee bit of experience sharpening knives and gardening tools(lawn mower blades, shovels).
I like to think I make my own decisions when it comes to choosing woodworking tools and equipment. The last thing I want are a bunch of useless tools hanging around my shop gathering dust. I'm no tool junkie. The Tool has to prove its worth.
I try to do my homework/research before making any major purchases. My final decison is usually based on information gatherered from fellow woodworkers. I don't come from a woodworking background so like most weekend woodworkers I usually rely on the expertise of other more experienced craftsman/women, and by reading magazines, books and tool reviews Not to mention any woodworking videos I can get my hands on. I've learned a great deal over the last few years from members here at the forum.
Wanda
Wanda,
You don't need me to tell you that you are doing fine. You are asking questions, and getting answers from some great woodworkers, and then, as you said, you make up your mind about what to do. Now that's a great attitude, in my humble opinion.I have asked many questions on Knots, just as you have. I have gotten back dozens of responses on how to do something, with little agreement among the answers. I enjoy that, and can deal with it readily. I never take advice without analyzing it, and checking it out, and testing it out, and then making up my own mind as to what is right. But then again, I have been doing woodwork for about 40 years. I really wonder how newbies figure out what to do when they get conflicting recommendations, and they don't know how to figure things out for themselves. Here's a great example. You are interested in learning how to sharpen. You have some experience. You have read some stuff about Japanese and Norton waterstones. Now if you were asking me what type of sharpening method you should try out, there are two different ways I could answer you. One - I could give you an absolute answer that one particular method is the only way to go, and even give you a rationale as to why.or Two - I could tell you where to get some great information, and then suggest that you come up with your own recommendation of which method to start with. Method "One" is by far the most popular on Knots. It is very easy and dowesn't require much thought. And it makes the responder feel good because he is just recommending what he does.Method "Two" sounds harsh and cruel and it doesn't "honor the intention of the person who asked the question". However it is designed to cause the question asker to do a lot of studying and to come up with their own idea as to where to start. As you know, while most people prefer "One", I use "Two". I feel that it helps the learner learn in a "hands on" mode, rather than continually "standing at the feet of the master who continues to make pronouncements".So here is my "Two" answer to you. Recently FWW did a comparison of different methods of sharpening. It was a wonderful article. I recommend that you read it and study it and then write down some questions that come to you after reading it. I recommend you buy Leonard Lee's book on Sharpening and study it. All of this can be done in a week. Then ask whatever questions you want on Knots and make your own decision.The nice thing about sharpening is that it doesn't matter which method you use. All can work well if you develop the skill to use them. OF course, all can fail because you fail to develop the skill. TO ME, the skills are FAR more important than which method you choose. There are pluses and minuses to each (as far as I am concerned) but they may not make much difference to you. For instance, waterstones are widely used, but you have to keep them wet and you have to flatten them often. THose are small problems and very easy to do, and waterstones sharpen VERY quickly. Use a Tormek. That is an expensive way to go if you have four chisels and you only use them three times a year, but its all there in one package. So it it neat and crisp, but it is expensive.There is the 6inch grinder. Many of the old timers use this. You can burn up a chisel in less than a minute, but when you learn how to use it, it is fast, cheap and easy. Of course you have to hone after using the grinder. The Tormek has its own buffer.There is the 1" belt sander that can be used for grinding. Look at Lee Valley. I use that method. BUT I AM NOT RECOMMENDING IT TO YOU. It has its problems.There is the Scary Sharp method. It is very cheap. You won't burn up your chisels. It allows you to move through a lot of small steps in grits rather than the two that exist on the Tormek. I use that but am not recommending it. You have to buy different grades of paper, cut them up, glue them on glass, and replace them when they wear out and it is messy and..... and and.Then there are the oil stones. The Hard Arkansas stone doesn't wear down, but it cuts slowly, so you need at least one or two more stones, and the oil is messy, but it is the traditional method.Then there is the "hand crank grinder" method. I have one of those. It is hard to burn the chisel with it. You have to learn to do it with one hand. It is awkward. BUT it is also a traditional and fairly slow and safe method.SO now that I have gone through all of this, I can tell you that I know people who swear by each of these methods and they all do well. BUt you have to pay your dues and practice and learn, no matter which you use. I HEARTILY RECOMMEND that you do not practice grinding on expensive new chisels.Any of these methods will work for you. FWW found that Scary Sharp produces the finest edges. I use it. A while back, I went through the same decision process that you are going through on how to sharpen. Everyone gave me conflicting advice. Now I have a 1" belt sander, a hand grinder, and I use Scary sharp for honing. You can easily burn up a chisel with the belt sander. I would rather you do a lot of reading on a good book like Leonard Lee's on Sharpening, and make up your own mind. Don't pick the method that I did just because I did. Then spend a lot of time practicing on cheap throw-away chisels.I hope that helps. I tried to answer you by giving you reasons to go out and look up more info. Don't believe what I said. I may have only given you my biases. You will never know until you look into it. Besides you shouldn't take my advice because I am not a "known commodity". But I hope I have been of use to you in providing you with information. If there are woodworkers near you, they may let you try out their waterstones, oil stones and grinders (on your own chisels). It's cheap enough to buy a piece of glass and glue some sandpaper to it. If you can test out these methods, you may get a better idea of what you might like to do. BUT EVEN THEN, it is difficult. For example, in using Scary Sharp, are you going to use a jig or do it by hand. I have tried it both ways, and now do it by hand, but it would take another three pages to describe why.The most important thing about sharpening is: IT DOESN"T MATTER which way you choose. It ain't like pickin' a spouse. And they all require you to practice to become competent. Having someone around to teach you will make it go quicker.Have fun.
Let me know what you decide.
Most of all - Enjoy it and have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Guten Tag Herr Mel,
Was machst du am Wochenende? Was für Plane hast du? I see you have been very busy "writing". (typing) :)
Vielen dank, for all your input. I have been reading several online articles with regards to shapening methods. I really enjoyed reading an article written by Christopher Schwartz. It really simplifies things. Especially for the novice. The author shows you how to get the best possible edge with the least amount of fuss. Nice to know you don't have to use a grinder. A DMT stone flattens the waterstones and it also grinds the edges. (a combination stone 1000/4000 8000 and DMT duo sharp stone)
Cost is a major factor when choosing a sharpening system. The Tormek and Shapton are out of my price range. So I have to choose one that will produce good results in a short time. Nobody wants to spend more time than they have to sharpening chisels.
Sharpening consists of 2 things.... Grinding and polishing 2 intersecting planes of a cutting edge as a fine a point as possible. No mystery in that.
I have a lot more reading to do but I am edging towards the Norton waterstones. I think I'll give that method a try stick with it for a while and see how it goes.
I ordered a VHS tape that was on sale entitled, Sharpening handtools and planes. I should go to the library and see what books I can find.
I have only 1 ?....... He advises you use an inexpensive honing guide. hmmm When I do buy the stones I think I'll try freehand. See how that goes I can always pick up a honing guide if I feel I need it. Won't know till I actually give it a go.
Wanda
Wanda,
Wow. You are really on a roll. Keep up the great studying, and let me know later how the Norton waterstones go.
Have fun. That's what it's all about.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Leonard Lee wrote a good book on sharpening. Lie-Nielsen sells one by Thomas Lie-Nielsen that gets good reviews and they sell videos, too.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Wanda,
In addition to Mel's recommendations, I'll just add the following:
If your goal is a sharp chisel, why would you want to use a system (waterstones) that, as I understand it, requires that you 1) use another stone first, to work up a slurry on your stone, 2) flatten the soft waterstone frequently, 3) then dry it off so it won't dissolve; or invest in a perfectly flat surface (granite, float glass, surface-ground steel) before you repeatedly invest in various grits of paper that you first attach to the flat surface, then throw away after the grit wears off? (In fairness, I've never used either of these methods, so this is all hearsay.)
My suggestion, offered in a gentle, not a bit shrill, voice:
Invest in a soft white (or pink, if girly colors don't put you off) wheel on a grinder, electric, or hand cranked, which wears (the wheel, not the grinder) pretty quickly, (so it is not inclined to overheat the steel,) but not so quickly that I, who work wood every day of the workweek, can remember when I last bought one. Then get a Norton brand fine India stone, and a white Arkansas stone, and a small can of light oil (like 3-in-1 brand, or whatever is cheapest, I like Marvel Mystery Oil, because of the name, and the fact that my dad had a half gallon of the stuff in his shop, so I never have to buy any). Hollow grind at about 30* (the length of the bevel is about two times the thickness of the blade at 30*) on the grinder, then hone on the India stone, with oil, til you see a honed line on both ends of the hollow. Then go to the Arkansas stone, with oil, til the scratches from the India stone are polished out on the bevel. Polish the flat side of the blade similarly with the Arkansas stone, and alternate sides til the burr from the grinder falls away of its own accord. This will take about 5 mins from start to finish, at which point you can get back to work. Remember work? That's why you are in the shop, right? Or are you there to sharpen your tools, and gloat? (In that case, I recommend the Tormek system, some fancy guides, the water stones, Japanese- but Nepalese, are better, the kind fron Shangri-la are the best- by all means, the float glass, with .00003 micron grit paper, et al, ad nauseum.) It may be hard to find an oilstone, I don't think the last Woodcraft catalog I got even had an India stone in it. Can that be, because after you get one (mine is at least 30 yrs old) you never need another one? In your lifetime? Or that of your children?
Now keep in mind that I am making these recommendations, because that's the way I was taught, and I'm just mindlessly repeating, by rote, what was drilled into my $hit for brains, long years ago, when I asked the same question you did: "(Mr. Grim,) how do I sharpen this? His answer, and here's where Mel and I agree, I betcha: "Well, I'll show you, then you do it. You won't learn any younger!"
Best wishes,
Ray Pine
I would sugest you look into sharpening with paper before you decide which method you want to use. I used stones for years, and still do for somethings, but I sharpen all my chisels and plane blades with paper, now. I found it much faster and easier, and along with a strop, keep my tools sharper, because it is so much easier.
Pedro
Hi Wanda,
I don't agree that bevel edged chisels are necessary for dovetail chopping. Anglo-american woodworkers in the 18th c generally didn't have bevel sided chisels. They had square sided firmers, and they did just fine with them. I use chisels like these and they work fine. Just choose a chisel slightly narrower than the base of the dovetail.
I think the advantage of square sided chisels is the strength of their corners.
So my advice, which is similar to Mel's, is to not worry too much about the size of the flat on the side. I have some similar sentiments as Mel- you needn't worry too much about chisel quality, but on the other hand, I think cheap chisels can be difficult to work with.
Adam
Hi,
One last ? concerning chisels. When it comes to a sharpening system Would I be wise to invest in a few Norton Stones ..DMT diamond stone, combination 1000/4000 and a 8000 waterstones (for polishing) Would that be considered extravagant spending for a novice?
Some people have mentioned King sharpening stones. Not sure if LeeValley sells those. I know that the Norton waterstones have a very good reputation. Rob Cosman sells the Sharpton sytstem but that is way too $$$$$$$$$$$$expensive.
I'm searching for a stone that will stay flat and won't wear out rapidly.
Wanda
Sandpaper would fit your desire for eternal flatness and low initial cost. I would start there. But stones are relatively inexpensive so you can try many. I've never found a stone that cuts as fast as 220 grit wet and dry sand paper. The Shapton I used didn't and it didn't stay flat either, but it was pleasant to work with. Also, you can choose paper for coarse work, water stones for medium honing and something entirely different for polishing. Some folks get worked up about sharpening. Don't. Buy some stuff and try it and see what you think. None of it is a waste of money. Its all part of your ww education. I'm reminded of one trick by my friend Warren: Be nice to your tools. Sharpen them often and the process will never seem laborious. I think that's good advice. Good Luck,Adam
i find that when i buy cheap tools i don't use them as much or as well. when i feel good about the tool i'm more apt to use it, learn to use it well and enjoy using.it's not that difficult to research sharpening and learn to do it well. good tools esp. lie-neilsen hold their value and can be resold for the same price you paid often. you may not want a high quality tool, but if you do want it, don't be discouraged from buying it is my opinion.
To more or less echo what Adam said about 220 sandpaper, good paper works great, is fast, pretty cheap and gives really good results. You'll need a flat surface to lay it on and I bought a couple of granite floor tiles from a building supply liquidator (HOBO). Thicker would be better but as long as the back is supported over a large area and the top is flat, it's fine. I usually use 220 grit for things that need a good amount of material removed. Once they get to the point of needing only honing, I use 600 grit, then 1500 grit. Sure, you can buy 12000 grit but that's overkill. 1500 makes it shine and even that may be more than what's really needed.
I don't do this dry. I wet the paper and make sure it stays wet to keep the dust down, and this is the reason I buy wet/dry paper. I would recommend wearing a mask if you sharpen or hone metal when it's dry.
Don't be obsessive about this, other than to make sure the edge is at a useful angle, holds an edge and does whatever you need it to. Having the most elaborate sharpening system takes a lot of space and costs more but won't guarantee anything but when there's a lot of sharpening to do, it can save time. My whole system fits in a drawer on my bench, with room to spare.
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