This is a plug for HNT Gordon planes. I just picked up a macassar ebony shoulder plane. It is the 1 inch variety, with brass sole. I have never been more impressed with a tool right out of the box. That’s n-e-v-e-r! It is beautiful, feels perfect in the hands and has a perfect, tight mouth. The iron came hollow ground at 30 degrees, and could be said to be ready for use. I simply polished its back and bezel on a Norton 8000 grit water stone, total time elapsed being only a few minutes. (perhaps the back should have started at 4000, then the 8000, but with the hollow ground, the polishing of the bezel literally took only seconds.) Blade adjustment took all of 5-6 seconds. The shavings on a piece of old, cranky birch, with knots and reversing grain, were uniform throughout the piece’s 18 inch length. Just for fun I took one, unrolled it, and read the instruction sheet through it. The shaving was very uniform, ultra thin. While the iron is bedded at 60 degrees, the test on the end grain was superb as well. I have 6 L-N planes. While they do all I ask of them, none performed as dazzlingly so quickly.
This is my first experience with HNT Gordon, but cannot be the last. I’d seen them around and read a little about them, including posts from our friend Eddie from Australia, and am adding this additional endorsement for everyone’s consideration. Others might add comments about smoothers, trying or block planes, but this shoulder plane is superb.
Cheers,
Greg
Replies
I have the same HNT plane and agree with it's quality and utility. But it's really a Rabbet plane not a shoulder plane and although it does the shoulder job on some woods reasonably well, I sure wish they would make a low angle true shoulder plane. I'd buy it!
Hi Greg,
Read the title of the thread and thought that I'd have a look - Pleased that all went well - You'll find it, I'm sure, a very good plane in the years to come.
I've no commercial interest in Terry Gordon's business, just a satisfied customer.
Cheers,
eddie
I read GregB's message and went looking for HNT Gordon on the web. I've looked at their site a few times when trawling around in Google looking for stuff on planes, and this time (with Greg's words ringing in my ears) I placed an order for an ebony 1 inch shoulder plane.
They tell me I'm their first Kiwi customer, and the first to use their new secure on-line system.
Thanks Greg!
Corners,
Yes, I know what you mean. Their rabbit plane is essentially a shoulder plane with a brass sole added to better resist wear from endgrain use. It is still bedded at 60 degrees. I'd also be interested in a lower angle example if Terry Gordon would offer one.
Eddie,
I knew you'd be interested, just as soon as your eyes spied so much as the "HNT"! I remember you speaking highly of them before. They were also mentioned twice in David Charlesworth's second volume of furniture making techniques. In fact, an entire "chapter" was devoted to HNT Gordon planes. His advise has always been superb and his books have helped me enormously. Still, I wasn't quite prepared for the amazing function of my new plane.
Kiwi,
I thought all you blokes had at least one already. How are you going to smooth your jarra? Don't tools from the northern hemisphere cause you everything from tearout to cupping to spontaneous ebonizing to other bewitchments? Well, maybe not, but you will certainly enjoy it.
Cheers,
Greg
I gave away one of these to a dear friend during his retirement ceremony (20 years military then 24 years civil service - he ran the transient aircraft flight line at an airfield where I worked). Had his name engraved on the brass. He could hardly take his eyes off of it, all through the retirement ceremony. I must say, the perfect gift for the retiree who also happens to be a woodworker.
Ed
> I thought all you blokes had at least one already <
Steady, mate. New Zealand and Australia is not the same place!
> How are you going to smooth your jarra? <
Here, we burn jarra (because it's mostly old railway ties and trashed bridge timbers - it's a native Aussie and there's nothing like it native in NZ). The native timbers of the two countries are quite different (although the Tasmanians share some common species, the southern beeches and a kauri-like pine for example, but then most Aussies don't think Tassie is part of Australia ... or is it the other way round?).
> Don't tools from the northern hemisphere cause you everything from tearout to cupping to spontaneous ebonizing to other bewitchments? <
The only trouble with northern hemisphere tools is, if they are worth owning, they're too dam expensive. I've been looking at Lie Nielsen planes and doubling the $US price and adding a hefty whack for freight ... and turning the page, for years!
Edited 6/13/2003 7:05:17 PM ET by kiwimac
With reguards to buying planes, you might try http://www.mik.com.au/, they are in West Australia. Their web site has (reasonble) prices and should at least be able to give you a pretty good idea of cost plus P&H.
Ben.
Kiwimac,
Easy, me old mate; didn't mean to ignite an international incident! In truth, I think somewhat saddly of NZ. It is one of those places I'd dearly love to visit, but don't see the opportunity in the very near future. Never met a Kiwi I didn't like. Pretty close to the same for Aussies. Maybe that's why I get you blokes mixed up. As to any recent purchases, I'd be interested to hear your own evaluation, once it arrives.
Jeff,
Glad to see Larry and Eddie clear up what you may have been missing. The HNT's are not pullers, although they can be used that way if the instant need arrises. I've tried them against Japanese planes, which are pullers. They perform astonishingly well. I never could get a comfortable rythm with the Japanese planes, but the HNT's were a snap. I never would have guessed how easy the adjustment is. Once you become accustomed to thinking about what your tapping has done to the wedge, as well as the iron, it can go much faster than the Bailey style. I've got a couple of L-N planes and sometimes feel as though I'm starting from scratch all the time due to backlash. With a bit of light tapping (and I mean a very little bit) you can make fine adjustments without losing your reference point.
Larry,
I know, I know, the brass sole may be a little impractical in the end, but I bought the beauty.... I never thought of the natural truing effect of the higher body that you mentioned above. I've always felt my round planes were very easy to control and make track wherever they were supposed to. That must be due in part to the phenomenon you described.
For edge jointing, however, I like to use my L-N. I use the very slightly rounded iron and like to place my thumb on the plane body just ahead of the knob, with my fingers kind of acting as a fence against the face of the timber I'm squaring. This seems easier with the L-N than with my old beech trying plane, which I frequently use at the step immediately before the final squaring.
Cheers,
Greg
Greg,
I was trying not to be too critical of Terry Gordon's planes. I've never really used any other than a quick test. They're gorgeous pieces of work and they sure feel good in the hands. He and I do feel differently about a few things and he's got a following like I think he deserves.
Tools are pretty personal and everyone likes different things. I do have to say that I'm pretty fond of my Lie-Nielsen planes and Thomas Lie-Nielsen has set the standard for taking care of his customers. I don't think anyone would be going wrong with either HNT Gordon or Lie-Nielsen.
One hint, though, wooden planes and nearly all metal planes have a different grip. Don't hold a wooden plane the way you would a Stanley or you'll loose a lot of benefit. Here's a proper grip for a smooth plane and your left hand would be in a similar position if you had a longer plane that's toted like your try plane.View Image
Larry,
I know you weren't being critical. Everyone who knows who you are knows you're a gentlelman. By the way, that picture shows just the way I hold my trying plane. To tell the truth, the HNT shoulder feels best that way too. It is the way which feels natural once the feet are positioned where they feel best. It kind of puts the work directly under the chest and takes the wrists out of the equation as well. The rounds are usually held that way, although I admit to holding the left hand's palm down the left side of the plane, kind of as with the Bailey-type, sometimes. Aiming. The only planes I just couldn't feel natural with are the Japanese ones. I think it had to do with balance and footwork, more than anything else. Thanks for your comments.
Cheers,
Greg
What the hell is that big green thing in the background, and what is it doing in the shop of a guy who makes wooden handplanes?
You should be ashamed, Larry.
You need to come visit me and I'll show you how you can get rid of all that stuff that has a cord attached to it.
Hi there eddie, it's always nice to find a 'local' on these 'hip' and 'with it' new-fangled cyber forums. LOL
Now I know I have someone turn to when I have an Australian specific wood working question.
So, if you don't mind me asking.... were are you from? I live in Melbourne's Outer Eastern Suburbs.
Ben also from aust.
Hi Ben,
Don't know about 'hip' or 'with it' when you're talking about me. I'm on the coastal fringe within 2hrs of Sydney.
There's a few of us here - feel free to ask away.
Cheers,
eddie
I bought a Gordon trying plane in ironwood a few months ago (with belated thanks to Eddie for the steer), and it has been a fantastic tool. It does a tremendous job on figured woods, and on straight grain and a fresh edge, I sometimes just forget about grain direction unless going for a final finish. Since then, I've bought a Knight 55° smoother (another great tool), and made two more woodies—they are definitely addictive.
Good looking, too. My wife saw that I was bringing them into the house overnight rather than leaving them in the workshop (more consistent humidity), and made room for them next to her Italian glass on a shelf in the living room. Good woman/lucky me.
/jvs
A Gordon smoother costs the same (actually, $4 more) than a #4 Veritas, needs to be pulled rather than pushed, is affected by changes in heat and humidity, and has no blade adjustment. OK, what am I missing here?
Jeff
The dark poetry and tactile magic of a well-made wooden plane. The joy of four foot long paper thin shavings unfurling from a wooden plane just like they did for your grandfather's grandfather.
Okay maybe I had too much coffee this morning,.....will be interested in seeing the range of other responses,...this is a good question.
Edited 6/15/2003 10:51:34 AM ET by Ed from Mississippi
blade adjustment is manual. Tapping the front and aft of the plane to adjust depth. Pulling the plane is the Japanese style of woodworking, something to do with pulling things toward you bring the spirits or something towards your body not pushing the spirits away.
woodbodied planes all adjust via the contraction and expansion of woods. Larry Williams (wood bodied plane guru) states that exotic bodied woods always are adjusting whereas woods like beech react quicker. They stabilize quicker. Larry also says that metal bodied planes will actually wear faster due to friction in metal as opposed to less friction of the wood bodied sole. This notion is heat based on the reaction of heat to the plane body material.
Wood versus Metal planes do the same thing mechanically, so its more a matter of preference and style. The degree of performance i think is in the eye of the beholder.
Jeff,
I'm not a big fan of oriental planes so I'll let others defend the style and working techniques.
As to the adjuster, have you ever adjusted a wooden plane? The learning curve isn't all that steep and it's easier to make fine adjustments on a wedge set plane than one with an adjuster. Even the original Norris double threaded adjusters on Norris planes leave a lot to be desired. Setting of planes requires fine adjustments, less than 1/1000" adjustment capability is pretty critical. Every adjuster I've ever used is hit-or-miss and the back-lash in all of them make resetting just as difficult as the attempt because you have to back up beyond the proper set get to an adjustment point. If you were a machinist setting up a metal working machine and setting work or fixtures to within .001" you'd use a hammer or mallet, exactly the same tools used for setting a wedge set wooden plane. With very little practice it's pretty easy to either advance or retract the iron of a wooden plane in very small increments by properly placed light taps.
Yes, a wooden plane will occasionally need some very slight seasonal tuning but the wear properties of most metal planes isn't what most people think. Roll over any old Bailey plane that's had much use and look at the leading edge of the mouth. You'll find what should be a crisp edge severly worn and rounded. Restoring a proper mouth isn't the simple task that seasonal tuning of a wooden plane is. Lapping a metal plane sole enough to clean up the leading edge of the mouth can easily be an all day job. Heat acts as a catalist to wear on metal and the places subjected to heat generated by cutting and directing the shaving is concentrated on the most critical part of a plane--the leading edge of the mouth and the front of the iron or iron assembly.
Heat has little effect on the wear properties of wood. Over time the front of the plane's iron will wear faster than the leading edge of the mouth of a wooden plane. I think it's unfortunate that HNT Gordon planes use a brass insert at the mouth because they're trying to solve a perceived problem with one of the least wear resistant metals they could have chosen. Just my opinion but it's not a direection I would consider.
Some people seem to like the heft of a metal plane. I suspect though that if you actually use the plane frequently, you'll find it's a lot more tiring than using a lighter wooden plane.
Traditional Western style wooden planes offer an advantage not found on either metal planes or oriental planes. The tall sides of traditional wooden planes offer a sensory reference for plumb and level. It's why you don't see jointer fences, like Stanley's #386 jointer fence, on wooden planes. They're not necessary because you can feel plumb in the sides of a plane the same way you can sense it on a full glass of water as you carry it across a room. Try it, you'll be amazed at how accurate the senses you bring to woodworking are and it's a shame people put so much time and effort into artificially creating something they already have.
I've never used the Veritas. I've held them and looked at them but never used one. I can't tell you much about them except that "revolutionary" frog/tote system isn't new--it's been done before at least one other maker that one wasn't successful in the market place.
Jeff,
I'm a cabinetmaker and use both Bailey-type metal and wooden planes. Larry's outlined a lot of the advantages of wooden planes above. Having said that , I was trained on a Bailey plane and eventually you can get these working well and intuitively also, but they don't work as well on any figured wood.
The HNT Gordon plane is a pushed plane (not a pull-type Japanese one), but I suppose you could pull a Bailey pattern plane towards you if you wished (and I do that from time to time as well). The outriggers on the jointer make it really easy to see if the plane is out of level. Must admit that they do look like a japanese plane, but they have a flat sole like any other woodie and are designed to be pushed - small ones even come with front knobs.
Re: blade adjustment, it's almost as quick as using a Bailey pattern adjuster once you get the hang of it. And a lot more accurate too.
Finish it leaves is a lot better than a metal plane a/c the wooden sole burnishes the wood. I'm in a part of Aust with a large humidity swing summer/winter and I don't notice any movement in the plane.
Because of the high angle blade (60 degrees) and the 1/4" blade, it can plane almost all difficult woods without tearout.
Hope that I've answered your questions.
Cheers,
eddie
edit: Minor additions after reading Larry's comments, who was typing at the same time.
Edited 6/15/2003 5:01:15 PM ET by eddie (aust)
Larry, Steve, and Eddie got to this first and covered about all of the bases. One that they didn't hit is purely subjective, and that is how it feels to use wooden planes. I work wood for recreation, and in the maybe 4 hours a week I sometimes get to do this, I would rather be using a wooden plane than any other piece of equipment that I own, power or otherwise. I have never gotten that feeling from a metal plane (mine are mostly Records, but I have used L-N’s, so I know what perfection in a metal plane is supposed to be like).
When I bought the Gordon, I wanted a plane specifically for a tabletop that I probably would have ended up sending out for drum sanding, and took off a couple of bf in an afternoon, a few thousandths at a time. I could still walk after doing that, and have no intention of trying the same thing with a five+ pound metal plane....
C/W, Knight, Gordon, L-N, Lee, Shepherd, and a bunch of others are all making some incredible tools right now—I wish I owned more of them (and probably will), and wish that I had more time to use them./jvs
Thanks all. I've found this the most interesting discussion on this forum in a long time. If you'll indulge me, I've one more question.
When you adjust a plane (to thousandths of an inch, as mentioned above) how do you know if it's done properly? (I should mention that I'm used to machinery and am not much more than a beginner with hand tools.)
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
A shaving that's taken very fine (such as 1 thou) is wispy, looks like a spider web and floats to the ground. Can also read newsprint through it as plain as day. For these shavings to be taken, the blade also needs to be sharp.
Often it's the only way to finish something with cranky grain to a flat and level surface without using a wide drum sander or wide belt sander, or other means like a Lacey (Horizontal belt) sander (notice a common theme coming through here?). A cabinet scraper makes it smooth, but not necessarily flat
There's no way to tell thickness without getting out a micrometer, and even then, it's purely academic. If the shavings float to the ground, then the plane is set to a sufficiently fine level. You can easily feel and see the difference each time you adjust the plane, so it's more a subjective thing.
Cheers,
eddie
edit: Just re-read your question Jeff.
If you're asking how fine a shaving do you need to take generally, the answer is not 1 thou [you could be there forever taking 1mm (=40 thou) off a surface]. It's generally horses for courses, but you don't need to take a really thick carpentry type shaving in cabinetry. If the shaving is reasonably thin (experience is the best guide here) then everything's sweet. The ultra-fine shavings are used to finish cranky grain or to joint an edge prior to glue-up.
The only other thing that you need to look out for on plane adjustment is that the blade is poking out both sides of the plane sole by the same amount (ie: it's level). If it's out of level, the blade corner will tend to dig in easily.
Edited 6/16/2003 8:58:40 AM ET by eddie (aust)
Jeff
Assuming that the blade is truely sharp - the blade is set to the right depth and the mouth opening is correct when the plane cuts easily and produces a consistent shaving - this after allowing for differences in wood species, planing with or across the grain, and whether you are smoothing (very fine shaving) or removing stock (thick shaving). I tend to start with a blade that only just shows proud of the sole and adjust in or out depending on whether the thickness of the shaving is appropriate - thick shavings to quickly remove a lot of stock, very thin for final smoothing or if the grain tends to pluck. I'm also guided by the amount of force required to take the shaving - less is usually better. If it takes a lot of force then either the blade is blunt or the cut too deep.
Hi, Eddie
Edited to make it easier to read.
Edited 6/16/2003 9:13:28 AM ET by ian
Jeff,
Are you asking how does one know if the little tapping adjustment just made was made properly (apart from achieving the intended result)? If I understand you correctly, here is how I do it. Keep a piece of similar timber laying around (doesn't have to be similar, but may help) and take a shaving on it. Adjust from there and then tackle your workpiece. This usually takes no time at all. If I've worked a while and have an almost finished piece, I don't usually do much adjustment trial and error on it. After a short time, though, you'll feel comfortable with a few light taps on the heel, toe or wedge pretty much on the fly. So I guess the short answer is: fine adjust then test; repeat. Then on to the workpiece.
If your question is more at how to make the adjustments, maybe Eddie and/or Larry can answer that one. I know what works for me and what hammer or mallet I use, but might embarass myself here. Better to let the guys who really know do the talking.
Cheers,
Greg
That is as good a methodology as any. What the world of handplane usage certainly doesn't need is somebody pulling out a pair of feeler gauges or otherwise attempting to measure the amount of blade exposure or movement of the iron an extra thousandth or so in the mouth of the plane.
Edited 6/17/2003 6:11:04 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
Charles,
It's pretty quick, which is the main thing. I must say, though, that my own favorite teacher/writer, has indeed measured shaving thickness with calipers. It's okay; he's the real thing, not another out-of-control amatuer.... The thing I was trying to convey to Jeff, though, was how quick and easy adusting a wooden body plane really is. The quick swipe on a test piece is something I frequently do with my L-N's too. Not so much when extending the iron, which can be done a very little bit at a time, but certainly if I've gone too far and want to retract. When retracting, I lose reference because of backlash, even the small amount with the L-N's.
Cheers,
Greg
I absolutely do the same thing Greg as I loosen the cap iron or wedges on all my planes at the end of the day. This makes the irons slide forward in the mouth so they have to be set up again the next day.
I'm aware of measuring a shaving with a caliper but I've always wondered how one struck the right balance between getting a good measurement and crushing the shaving enough to affect accuracy of the whole exercise. In essence, I wonder about how accurate those measurements are, but in the end that sort of thing is not for me.
Again, thanks everybody for a great topic. Sounds like I need to spend a bit more time in the shop just playing with my planes. Now, if I can just get that $#@*! plumbing fixed, I'll be free to do just that.
Jeff
Greg,
I have a HNT Gordon smoother and find it also to be very satisfactory. For others contemplating a purchase a couple of points:
Just for the record "jarra" is actually "jarrah" (it's a native of the SW corner of Australia). Notwithstanding its NZ status as firewood, cabinet-grade jarrah makes superb furniture (albeit heavy). Besides being exceptionally tough and hard, it also can contain a lot of silica and hence it can be diabolical on cutting edges. Machining means carbide tooling (or frequent changing of HSS blades). My Gordon smoother planes it beautifully (admittedly with frequent rehoning).
And by the way Tasmania is not only part of Australia - it's the best part!
Ted
Ted,
Good points. I didn't intentionally misspell jarrah. Just sloppiness. No disrespect intended. Is Tasmania really where the Garden of Eden is located?
Cheers,
Greg
Hi Greg
I don't know about the Garden Of Eden but it's certainly a very attractive part of Australia and an easy place in which to live. It's also a nice place to visit.
Cheers, Ted
Ted,
It sounds beautiful. The Eden question was inspired by a book called English Passengers. It got a lot of attention a year or two ago. One of the converging plot threads concerned a group of English theologians and [scientists] who, based on certain calculations, concluded Eden was indeed in Tasmania. They went to study and confirm, thus the novel. Despite what the critics said, I didn't like it and didn't finish it. A bit too transparently "clever" for me, and somewhat fueled by political correctness.
Cheers,
Greg
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