Hi Everybody,
I’m trying to decide if I do a good enough job with my woodworking to try and persue a career in the field. I’m self taught and looking for people to critique my work. I know it’s hard to tell by photos alone but any comments would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you Brandon
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Replies
Wow Brandon,
Great looking chairs. Although I am new to woodworking in terms of actually making anything, I have been selling into the woodworking industry for a number of years here in northeast Ohio. About an hour south of Cleveland there is a very large concentration of Amish shops; roughly 750 businesses in a 20 mile radius. Although some Amish produce great looking stuff some are just getting by on the Amish reputation. Your chairs are every bit as good as what I have seen out of the true craftsman down there.
I hope I can continue to hone my skills to the point that I can produce such results in the future. I would certainly consider a career in woodworking if I had that talent. I'm not sure what you are doing now or what income level you have and or expect, that certainly needs to be considered. A gentleman I know here in Cleveland left a very lucrative career in the computer industry to pursue his passion for working wood. He now does very high end work and usually only makes a piece or two a month and charges accordingly. Best of luck to you in your decision.
Erik-
Erik thank you for taking the time to look at my pictures.
Brandon,
Both Ring's and Sapwood's contributions are important. Pay attention to them.
It's obvious you have talent, but whether you have business skills, or can learn necesary design skills remains to be seen. I know many good furniture makers. None of whom is able to support himself in that field.
The most important lesson I have learned in business is that undercapitalization will kill you. Not immediately, but eventually you can't escape its effects. Don't think you can eventually catch up from a less than profitable condition. You must have enough capital to support the business (including your salary) and all its needs as far as equipment and supplies is concerned for the first several years.
Rich
Edited 12/5/2006 12:21 pm ET by Rich14
Brandon,
If you can sell these chairs and make a living at it, you should start trying to sell these chairs to find out. But you need to sell them to people that aren't your friends or relatives.
Keep making them in your spare time, sell them in your spare time, keep close track of the time you spend to make them and finish them, along with the time and expense of selling them, delivering them, and the cost of materials, advertising, tools, supplies, etc. You also need to add to your costs the cost of health insurance, liability insurance, fire and theft insurance on your shop, disability insurance (you will get hurt), and a retirement savings plan. These are all costs of doing business.
You can't just decide that you have received enough compliments to insure that your chairs will sell. You can't eat compliments, and they won't keep you warm in the winter or pay for your eventual retirement. You can't use a credit card to pay your bills when you come up a little short on a slow month because you will never make it up. The credit card payment will just become one more cost of your business.
Once (if you get there) you get to where you can't keep up with the demand in your spare time and you have at least a 6 month backlog of work, and you are making enough money at it to pay for all of the expenses including vacations, holidays and retirement, you can possibly justify being a woodworker rather than whatever you are doing now that will make you way more money over the long run.
You should also know that if you become a full time woodworker, it won't be fun to do on the weekend anymore.
It also helps to be young so you have plenty of time to bounce back if you need to.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Brandon
I hope one day to be able to do work such as yours. I know little of the economics and what the chairs might sell for versus the amount of time they took to make. I know a lot of work falls into the, "you can't pay me enough to make this for you" category! My brother-in-law has just finished a long-case clock that fits this situation.
Good luck!
Hi Brandon,
If I were as good as you are, I will not hesitate to pursue "woodworking" as my career. My opinion is based on the assumption that if you can make nice chairs as they are, (the most tedious & detailed task in ww to me...) I'm confident you can make tables and other things (which are more straightforward and easy) much much better.
Very nice work! Can I download the pic in my PC ?
Sincerely
Masrol
Edited 12/4/2006 8:47 pm by Masrol
I can't say much about their structural integrity from pictures, but your craftsmanship and artistry seem impressive. That does not mean that you won't starve if you pursue a career as a woodworker. You haven't told us your financial nor marital nor parental status either. Your talent as a businessman enters the picture also. This has to be your decision. Please make it, whatever it is, wisely.
Cadiddlehopper
Brandon,
The photos you posted show that you obviously have talent. But I want to emphasize that the issues at stake in your question are mostly to do with factors that are less photographable.
Running a woodworking business, even a 1-man business, means that you need to wear at least 5 hats:
1. The designer/maker - let's say that you've got this covered
2. Salesman
3. Financial director
4. Manpower director (yes, even if you're working alone)
5. CEO/strategic planner
The difficulty is that you need to do every one of these things, at a reasonable level of skill, for the business to work. I've seen many many craftsman fail at business over the years. I can't recall one case where it was because the product wasn't good enough, but rather because one of the other hats didn't fit and they thought they could get by just by virtue of making great stuff. Take a hard look at your capacities, including your willingness to learn and occupy yourself with things that have nothing to do with woodworking per se.
And one more thing - you need to have at least one of the following:
- A comfortable nest egg
- A partner with a regular income that is willing and able to support you for quite a while
- Or no dependants at all
I realize that this post comes off like a cold shower, but I truly wish you the best. If you go for it, do it with both eyes open and your whole heart.
DR
Excellent post, Ring.Brandon, read and reread Ring's post. He is dead on with his observations.Lee
C'mon Lee, you have lived the "American Dream" and do what you really enjoy as well as making a fortune out of it.
Give the man some more encouragement...
I would have to agree with Ring and add most small businesses fail due to under funding or have a product that won't sell at a profit. Custom made furniture sells at the high end of furniture prices, do you have such a market? Wal-Mart customers usually don't buy such items. Do you have more than one product if not you are doomed to fail because you will quickly saturate your market. Are you willing to work long hours and fail to succeed over and over again and keep going until you do succeed? Do you have enough capitol to keep the business running and pay your bills for two years minimum? Do you have some fast turnover low priced items to help with income?
These are some of the questions you need to ask yourself and only you can answer.
Jack
Do not read this if you have a thin skin.
While the actual woodwork appears to be satisfactory, the overall design of the chairs is not. The designs are derivitive. That isn't so bad but you aren't presenting anything new to go along with it. The weight seems to be heavy. The chairs remind me of "captains chairs" where all the elements are HEAVY HEAVY. The back slats especially are oversized and give the appearance of sagging as if gravity has truly won out with them. The arms are equally heavy and seem to be sloped toward the seat thus revealing a "sharp" edge on the outside where ones arm weight would be located. Overall, there are no crisp edges..... everything seems to be rounded off with a pad sander. The woodwork is thus overly softened and in a design that you appear to be aiming for, some crisp detail is called for. The chairs are, in a word, clunky.
The chairs remind me of pieces I did in the early 80's when I started into business. I knew nothing then. (Some might say I know nothing now.) That didn't stop me from continuing my business. I took design classes, I learned.
My best wishes to you.
Others will violently disagree with this. Nevertheless, you asked for honest critique.
Sapwood writes: "Others will violently disagree with this. Nevertheless, you asked for honest critique."
Honest perhaps, but not necessarily correct or valid. Your work appears fine. Focus more on the issues on business management . . . they are the far more challenging and illusive.
Edited 12/11/2006 8:55 am ET by litehart
Brandon,
Nice chairs. I think the general public will like them too.
My suggestion. "Don't quit your day job". Not because your chairs aren't good enough. But by keeping at least a part time income, you can stay afloat while you build a buisness as well as chairs. Slowly migrating from part time woodworker to full time.. I'm doing the same thing right now. It's a slow process, and I'm glad I have another income for now. Best of luck.
Brandon,
Nice looking chairs!
Become a member of The Furniture Society http://www.furnituresociety.org They have an excellent network of members who can point you in the right direction if and when you take your hobby fulltime.
I think another thing to consider is what you plan on selling. You have to have a niche in the marketplace and you have to specialize in that field. You can't be a jack of all trades and command the highest price. Look at Longaberger; he made baskets and thats it. He didn't make bowls or buckets, just baskets and he eventually grew his business into a $300 million empire. Good craftsmanship, good marketing, good salesmanship and definitely a good Business Plan is what you need in order to succeed.
Mike
Edited 12/5/2006 3:47 pm ET by mvflaim
Brandon,
As a matter of personal taste------- i GREATLY preferred the cherry chairs to the walnut. the touch of the tiger maple in the one walnut chair makes me REALLY want to see one in maple.
the lighter toned woods seem to lessen the heaviness apparent in the walnut chairs.
I would kind of suspect you drew a little inspiration from Maloof.
since skills, techniques and styles aren't a static thing - I would really like to encourage you to pursue your goals.
If you can SELL-- go for it.
Very best wishes, Stephen
Brandon;
If I had your talent I'd go for it ! There are many pitfalls in life.We can sit on the porch with the dog while thinking shoulda, coulda, woulda for the rest of ones life. What separates success from failure is; 1) Lack of ambition and 2) determination, that all. All the rest of the b.s. your reading here is just that.
Whatever you decide must be in your heart; you obviously love working with your hands and you do very nice work. There's nothing like working at a job you love!!! It doesn't even seem like work.
Whatever skills you may be lacking as far as the business end, can certainly be learned. One can not learn love of work, ambition or determination. Read about and get good advice from people whom are successful. (Christian Becksvoort, Lonie Bird, Philip Lowe, Jeff Miller, Charles Durfee, etc,etc,etc.)
If you build it they will come. You can; if you think you can!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The very best of luck to you!
Brandon -
There's no question that your work is good enough and several others have given you some excellent advice regarding the business aspects. If you go for it, I would add one more piece of advice......
Be able to give potential customers a "ballpark" price for your work very early in the negotiation process. Most of my prospective customers have some budget in mind when they contact me and it's usually well below what their project will actually cost.
It's been difficult, but I've finally started talking "ballpark" costs right up front so I don't waste my (or their) time on something that can't happen within their planned budget. I've been at this for three years now and have spent WAY too much time designing stuff that met the customers needs, but not their budget.
$850 per chair minimum and you can knock each one out in three eight hour days or less. That is what would be required to be on the cusp of viability. Oh, and you stay in your home shop and don't go out and incur a lot of monthly overhead.
Nice work. The Walnut chairs were a little clunky as somebody else mentioned, but a nip and tuck here or there and you'd have it, IMO.
You'll need a rolling four-job backlog at minimum and you need to get a 50% deposit, a good portion of which should be 'profit' after you buy the raw materials for the job. That way, you can live off the deposits as you are completing each commission. Don't spend the money before you buy the wood! The 50% you'll collect on delivery should be pure gravy. Don't spend it all. Build up a war chest.
Pick up a Woodwork magazine and look at their Gallery pages as a constant reminder of how good some people really are.
A lot of great, great furnituremakers have thrown in the towel because they couldn't keep a constant backlog and funds coming in off deposits. Most of these guys are the ones running woodworking schools. I don't know one single woodworking school proprietor who did not start out with the express intention of making furniture full-time.
A wife with a good job helps too.
Edited 12/5/2006 1:33 pm ET by VeriestTyro
Well........From the chairs--- I would say you have the skill to make product.
But do you have the business skills and will to go into the open market place?
That is a much tougher question that you may not even know the answer to yet.
Thank you,
Cheatah
If you possibility have the time you might consider taking a course with an established chairmaker. Along with learning a few new and interesting techniques you can get some invaluable help with your designs and business problems you might encounter.
As an example I know Brian Boggs is teaching a one week course at Kelly Mehler's school in KY and he is teaching a more inclusive 2 week course at the North Bennett Street School in Boston. This would give you an opportunity to discuss some of the business aspects along with learning some new skills.
I've taken a few chair courses and although I have no intention of going into business (I'm retired and enjoying it to much) what I learned from these courses would have been a great help.
This is a link to Brian Boggs schedule and I'm sure there are other chairmaker's who are also offering courses.
http://www.brianboggschairs.com/workshops.htm
If you decide to take Brian's 2 week in Boston let me know as I plan to be there.
I'll take 6 of the Tiger-walnut :)
good luck
Dave
I thought that if you liked those chairs you would like to see the side chairs. They are a little different then the end chairs.
Thanks Brandon
wow...talk about putting yourself out there...i hope that you are able to take everyones comments constructively and use them to your advantage....
you have received a lot of good advise and some sound design critiques that you should consider, but remember personal taste is very subjective....
first impressions based on my own personal taste....I don't care for the walnut chairs, the proportions/balance don't seem to work...the cherry chairs are better in some respects, but still feel a but contrived.
more important in my book would be the technical execution of your design; properly selected & prepared materials, well executed jointery, well crafted assembly, and a well applied finish appropriate to the piece.
as far as i can judge by the photos the chairs appear well made, but it's hard to tell much from photos.
for me it is hard to citique in a vaccume. who originated the design? was it to serve the specific needs of a client or to match some other pieces in this "style"? also just because something doesn't hold with the conventional set of design principles does not mean that it will not be well received by the public and can not be sold for a profit...
goood luck with whatever career choices you may make....
Thank you for sending me your comments. I actually just went on a chair binge and I decided to make 5 different chairs 8 in total. The whole idea was to try different designs and sizes. All 8 of the chairs are going around my kitchen table. It may look a little different. But how many times will I get a chance to build chairs and practise.
Thank you Brandon
Hey, Brandon,
I believe you have received great advice here on all aspects of your question.
I have a suggestion--get a furniture store to sell your chairs on commission (or to buy them outright)--see what price they can bring, how long they take to sell, etc. Extrapolate to determine potential revenues. Otherwise, you might explain to yourself where your clients will come from, and how they might find you if you make only custom orders.
VeriestTyro suggested $850 per chair per 24 working hours (minimum). That's about $35.40 per hour or about $74,000 per year. But wait! You haven't paid for the materials, the equipment, rent, sharpening cutting bits, insurance, gasoline, heat, electricity, ad nauseum.
Create a business plan, project revenues, expenses, cash flows, etc. Be conservative. I hope that you can make it happen--to do what you want to do.
I just wanted to say that I am in a similar position, only a little further back in the hobby phase. I'm definitely thinking seriously about all the details that comprise a business,
but I'm still working on buying equipment and expanding my skills.
Perhaps some of you folks out there who ARE paying the bills with your creative work would like to share some stories about how you started out.
I have questions such as,
did you make custom designs for each new piece, or did you have a few proven winners that you make over and over?
did you go to school for woodworking, if so where, for how long, and how significant was your education towards the success of your career?
how long did it take for steady business to start flowing in, and how did you get by in the mean time?
-
as for a critique, I agree that the chairs in cherry have better overall weight. I see very strong influences from sam maloof in your joinery style and stretcher shapes. Depending on your market, this might not be a problem. Design is a lifelong evolution, and it's nice to see that you are looking to one of the greats for your inspiration. From an artistic point of view I would recommend making as many variations as possible on this design... Maloof has countless variations in his rocking chair over the years. Maybe just making some models and drawings would help speed up the process of design and investigation.
I have included a few photos of my own work, should anyone care to comment. Keep in mind I'm not trying to start living off my craft tomorrow. Maybe after a few more years of experience... These are some of my first pieces... my first two tables and my second birdfeeder (done before the tables). I have many more designs, but it's hard to find the time to build them, or summon the money for materials while I'm still in school.
I've also included a woodcut print, as I am a college art student finishing up a printmaking degree (BFA) at the moment. Even though it has not been easy to find the time and money to do my woodworking, it's certainly been worth the effort so far!
Vincent
Vincent,I'm not going to repeat what I already wrote about starting a business. My own personal experience has been rather unique, and for the most part not applicable to your situation, but one thing I'd point out: In the beginning you need to do many different things to get by. In time you should focus more and more, both style-wise and in the type of jobs you take on.Regarding your designs - each piece has an idea, a theme, but I have the feeling that you're hitting me over the head with it. Be more subtle, and leave the observer something to discover. Relax.best of luck,
DR
thanks- I really appreciated your initial post on the subject of running a good business.I see what you mean about subtlety in design... after all, we usually keep furniture around for life so something that is too 'in your face' could really lose its charm after a while. one step at a time...
I like the looks of both the small table and the coffee table.
Brandon
Brandon
I read this thread, and stopped at ring's post. I'll tell you with 20 years experience as a business owner (2) that he's dead nuts on! Your chairs look nice, but that won't be the issue for you.
You mentioned the Amish. I don't know your Amish market, but in my town, there are not 1 but 2 (TWO!) "Amish" retail stores selling furniture. Their chairs, tables, and other pieces are selling for less than 1/3 what I charge for my furniture. If you think you can make a living selling chairs for $350.00 apiece, think again.
No need to re-post what ring has already stated. Just make a copy of it, read it about 60 or 70 times until you've memorized it, hang it on your door, and be prepared to grind it out! With tenacity, you can succeed. Without it, forget it.
Nice work, and good luck.
Happy Holidays,
Jeff
When I hung it out there, so to speak, I booked three jobs giving each customer a silly-long estimate of lead time, before I bought one piece of wood. Once I got cranked up, I beat the estimated delivery dates handily and everything worked out well. I also had about $185,000 lying around looking as if it didn't care, with more not so liquid, and a house with a ton of equity. My wife had a good job too.
Don't even dream of doing this with only a few month's expenses in your savings account. You might as well make a withdrawal and give it away to charity. It would be better spent.
Some folks ease into this by keeping their day job. That's fine, but if you book reasonably complicated projects you're going to have to have some darned patient customers or quote a really extended lead time and feign being busier than you really are. It's tough to build between 6:00 and 10:00 p.m. and weekends and get anything done, especially if you have a family.
For the hell of it, you need to execute a Chippendale chair with the full Monty - carving, compound angle joinery, the works, and it needs to be flawless. If you can knock it out in less than a week you're good to go technically. You should be able to handle anything that comes along.
Unless you have a rare gift for designing lean, spare furniture you need to know how to carve and turn pretty well. Chances are that somebody will approach you and want a reproduction of something. And chances are it will have plenty of turning and/or carving that needs to be done. Murphy's law old boy....
Get three to four jobs booked and deposits collected before you do a bloody thing. Don't start work on number 1 until number 4 is booked. If number 2 through 4 don't come along, where do you think they'll come from in the future? You must evaluate the market where you live. If it's thin, it's thin. You'd have to be Maloof or Krenov to make a go from out in the sticks somewhere. In other words, you'd need a national reputation and a phone ringing off the hook if you don't live in or near a decent sized city with some breadth and depth to the wealth. As it has been said on this forum before - poor people rarely commission custom furniture.
Edited 12/7/2006 1:10 pm ET by VeriestTyro
I think Sapwood was accurate in his assement. I think you have the scale of various parts wrong and the chairs look like a blend of styles that should not be blended.
I cannot tell if your workmanship is good or not. I cannot even tell if mine is good or not from pictures.
You don't give an estimate of your time or what price your market will bear. That is all that is important. Last time I made chairs -
24 chairs required 8 hours labor and $90 in materials each. Not much room for profit.
The issue really is less about getting proportions exactly right, that helps for sure, but getting jobs booked. Get jobs booked and 50% deposits in the bank. With all the weird studio furniture being sold these days your slightly out-of-proportion chairs might be somebody's Mona Lisa. If you find that person, build all they'll take and don't change a damned thing.
If you're building a set of eight, then you'd be a FOOL not to let the client see finished chair number one. Let me give you a bit of friendly advice - never cut the wood for all eight chairs at the same time. Build one. Get specific approval. Then have at it with the remaining seven.
If you asked 100 people at least 50 would say there was virtually nothing wrong with any of the chairs pictured. There's your market. I'm not particulary fond of Krenov. There's no accounting for taste.
You've been given some good advice, generally, about your chairs. But a bunch of prissy woodworkers (me included) is not your market so be careful. You can get bogged down in the art while you go gently into bankruptcy with a posey in one hand and a sonnet in the other. Either that or scrambling to start a woodworking school - the artisan's equivalent of a housewife taking in laundry. I think some guys claim to 'love teaching' but what they really love is paying the bills. And you have to do that. But if you do some things right on the front end you can make a living with your art. I've never met one single woodworking school proprietor who slaved over practice joints until he or she could cut them in the pitch black in the name of starting a school. Your goal is to design and build for living. You can do it. Any business requires start-up capital. You can't pitch your finish carpentry tool belt in the corner one day and hold out as a custom furnituremaker the next.
Edited 12/7/2006 3:28 pm ET by VeriestTyro
Again I would like to thank everybody for there comments. I find it interesting that everyone disagrees on the proportions of the chair. The actual size of the chairs was taken from a article on Sam Maloof sharing the dimension of his chair and the size of the arms and legs. I didn't use any plans but I did use his overall dimensions as a guide. The whole reason I did these chairs was to work on different design ideas. Some chairs are more rounded and some are square, while others are the combination of both. I don't know about you all out there but I can't tell comfort and visual appearance from a simple sketch. I made these five different chairs and had people of different heights and weights sit in them and let me know what chair they liked best and why. Like everything out there I got all kinds of different reviews on which chair was the best for themselves or which one was most visually appealing. With that note here are some pictures of the other 3 chairs.
Ps. I have only been woodworking for a 11/2 years and this was my second attempt at making chairs.
Thanks, Brandon
They're nice chairs. Good solid intermediate woodworking, maybe a touch better since you've had no formal training. These would be well within the capabilities of a student in the 2nd year at North Boston. Well within. Theirs might have stretchers which complicates matters a bit, but makes a stronger chair. I understand that was probably a design decision on your part, but you ought to do it to stretch a bit technically.
Put a price on them and see if you can get an order for a set or two
I'm reminded of Harvey Keitel's (Mr. Wolf's) line from Pulp Fiction... "let's don't start s***ing each others d***s just yet...."
Get my drift?
Edited 12/7/2006 5:17 pm ET by VeriestTyro
What does a advanced wood working chair look like? If you see one that you think is top notch please send me a picture. I just look at different professional furniture makers and use their ideas. I figure if they have 30 to 50 years of experience then I might be following the right people. I'm not interested in designing gallery furniture. The stretcher would add strength. But these chairs really don't need any.
Thanks Brandon
Philadelphia Chippendale, or maybe a Carlile Shieldback. Something with cant in the back legs and a parallelogram seat. Something with true side rails and a drop in seat which means side rail angled tenons and no plugged screw seat-to-leg joints. Let's let Maloof be Maloof until he's dead. Then we'll rip him off to our heart's content.
You're spunky and that's good. I like that.
Get an order. Fill the order. Cash the check. Do it again.
The Gallery or Reader's Work section of every woodworking mag features a few great chairs every month. Keep it in perspective, while keeping your cocksure attitude.
Thumb through your collection of FW.
Edited 12/7/2006 7:19 pm ET by VeriestTyro
See this is why I sent this email out. I have know idea what a Carlile Shieldback chair looks like. If you know of a website that has a picture of this please let me know. I don't think I'm spunky but I do want to keep challenging myself.
Thanks Brandon
Ps Sam Maloof says thanks for calling him a intermediate woodworker. Hows that for spunky.
The only one (Carlile Shieldback) I've seen was when I was a student at the Rhode Island School of Design more years ago than I care to remember. The Philly Chippendale stuff is all over the place. Repros appear in the Readers' Work section of Fine Woodworking practically every issue. You can order a book by Ron Clarkson which takes you through the process of building one.
Will Neptune did an article in Fine Woodworking on the compound angled tenon necessary on the side rail to rear leg joinery in one of these chairs.
Your chairs really are nice. They are. I'm just messing around with you a bit. You've got talent. More than I had at a year and a half into the deal. Just keep it channeled properly.
You need to familiarize yourself with the work of Kristina Madsen. Whenever you think you've gotten good, take a look at something she's built. Instantaneous humbling will occur. She practically has the Dalai Lama booking her commissions for her. She's up on a mountaintop and the rest of us are in the valley looking up. At least as far as I'm concerned.
Edited 12/7/2006 7:28 pm ET by VeriestTyro
Thanks for your kind words. I really don't think i'm a good or even a great woodworker. I'm just a beginner looking for guidance. That's what I love about woodworking. I feel that I can do this for the rest of my life and keep challenging myself if I want to. I will look up Kristina Madsen. I have enjoyed our conversations.
Thanks Brandon
They are terrible. You should just get rid of them and try again. If you can't get rid of them, I guess I could force myself to put them in my house. Nice work.
I really could use some advice on proportions. It seams every time I build something it's way to big or to small. I built several projects to big, but when my hall table turned out to small, it was kind of a memorable moment for my wife and I. I'm also struggling getting shapes for any number of projects. I've been on this site for a few weeks and it's been helpful and have bought a few bad books, any one got any good sugestions.
I hope somebody on this website can help you with these design issues. I have bought a lot of magazines and books to look at designs and dimensions. I'm just following the horses #### in front of me.(AKA follow the leader.)
Actually you can't just copy other's ideas or styles and expect to sell them.
Thomas Moser sued and won when a chairmaker built one of his designs and sold it, even though he bought Moser's book and learned to build it from the instructions in the book.
Anything that anyone else has done before you has an inherent copyright.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
I love what you have done with the grain pattern in the ladder back chair... how it all flows in a circle. That's the kind of attention to detail that separates the professional from the hobby boys. I also think the lack of exposed dowel joinery is a good decision on this very simple (but nice) design.
thank you
I like your work and your approach. Too often people focus on the design but forget a simple point - chairs are made for sitting in! I agree that the arm chairs look heavy, but I think you are heading in the right direction - I can see myself sitting in one comfortably for a long dinner, several bottles of wine and pleasant conversation. Works for me!
Thanks for the inspiration - the dining table and chairs are about 3rd & 4th in the queue and I've been a bit afraid of the chairs. Now I just want to have at them!
Brandon,
Your work is wonderful. Sam Maloof is certainly not conventional in his approach and last time I checked, he has done quite well for himself. It gets dangerous when we start debating proportion and aesthetics of someone's work. I saw a post from someone criticizing(albeit I don't think he meant much harm) your proportions. You know, I have seen much work from the most accomplished furnituremakers of our time(Frid, Krenov and Klausz) to name a few. You know, some of the pieces I have seen them display, I could never GIVE away. This isn't to sound critical, only the truth. I saw some of Klausz' work recently and it looked as if it belonged in the Brady Bunch era with shag carpet and all. If I tried to pull something like that out w/ the price tag he probably got, the professional yuppies I deal w/ would tell me to get lost...ok, I'm starting to digress. Hopefully you get my drift.
You know what sells where I am? Simplicity. Pottery Barn and Crate/Barrel type design stuff. Of course, w/ better craftsmanship. Find your niche and go for it. Go read "Think and Grow Rich" or something inspirational. The difference between those who make it and those who don't is many times purely in perseverence and desire.
Your work is beautiful. Don't let anyone tell you different. No one here speaks for the world on "proportion." You might find something sells in your area more than another.
Edited 12/10/2006 9:46 pm ET by Woodk
I would like to thank both Richard and woodk for your individual insight on the subject.
Thanks Brandon
<<...start a woodworking school - the artisan's equivalent of a housewife taking in laundry. I think some guys claim to 'love teaching' but what they really love is paying the bills.>>
Damn! Well said! If you are making enough money to pay the bills, then teaching is FUN! And if you think one teaches just for fun, then try to attend their class for free. (WW shows excluded as I suspect they are compensated.)
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
Experience will teach you that the biggest challenges you will face will come from your clients and potential clients. You know much more about furniture than the majority of them do. There is a real communications gap that needs to be bridged. And the responsibility for that rests with you.
YOU can visualize. YOU can interpret a sketch... line drawing... or CAD printout. YOU can envision your creations in their room... complementing their existing decor... and being used daily. Question is, can THEY?
Here's a great skill you can brush up on: Reading your sales target: Are they for real or just blowing smoke? Become excellent at this -- and the ability to walk away at your discretion -- and you'll do better than most.
It boils down to this: Whether you get paid or not is in their hands.
Your question has been answered very well. I am also a tweener. Fortunately for me is that I do not need to earn money. In my case, I have done some very complicated work and done them well. Almost all the work I have done for pay has been basically cabinet work. Almost all my work has been done for businesses.
Your photo's are of chairs and they look superb. The quality can only be reliably judged by knowing more about your jointery and being able to examine the work by hands on inspection. If you do decide to go "pro". You'll likely need to have a good stash if you want to do just chairs.
I wish you well and thank you for sharing your photo's
BTY, thanks also for downsizing the photo's for us folks who are held hostage by only having dial-up.
A friend is a professional photographer and as I have an interest in photography he has taken me along to various courses, seminars, and workshops in photography. Two interesting things come up at these:
At these events there always people wondering if they are good enough to make a living at photography and they show their portfolio and ask if they should become professionals. Little do they realize that personal ambition, drive, imagination, and business knowledge is as important as photo ability. In fact, photo ability is almost useless without the rest when it comes to making a living.
The other interesting thing at these events is a question my friend always asks the guest instructor:
"What percent of your income do you derive from working as a photographer?"
None have ever answered that they make most from photograpy, and most have indicated they make most from putting on these seminars and courses.
My favourite answer was from the fellow putting on a course called the "Business of Photography" - he answered "I inherited a lot of money and don't need an income. Photography and courses are my hobby." He wasn't a good guy to ask about going professional.
Brandon,
I like the chairs. They have a nice look. I've always had a concern about the strength of chairs without stretchers though. But I'm sure they'll be fine.
What I like most is what I've seen in your posts. I've seen someone who put his work in front of the jury of his peers and seems to have taken comments well. You seem open minded to change in order to meet your goal. Keep this up, and you'll be selling chairs in no time at all.
Brandon,
I'm sorry but I think your premise is wrong. It cant be "I'm trying to decide if I do a good enough job with my woodworking to try and persue a career in the field"
It has to be "I'm trying to decide if I do a good enough job running a business by myself to try a start my own."
The plain truth is that you are a good enough woodworker to work for someone else.
But it doesnt matter if you want to sell burgers, ski racks, or computers.
Have you ever been a entrepeneur, contractor, or small business manager before?
Do you have methods in place to deal with marketing, sales, finance, customer service? It looks like you have a chunk of production in hand, as far as what you want to create, and it is first rate craftmanship, but that is really a small part of it. You can make a very good living selling second or even third rate furniture.
I dont have enough info to give you specific advice, but plan on joining the local Chamber of Commerce, as well as other leads groups. Keep your day job or better yet, transition into a parrallel career subcontracting job, like trim carpenter. That way you will have constant contact with the industry, pick up the necessary business mangement skills, and have somebody feed you enough business to keep food on the table. Plan on driving around town a lot and doing your own grass roots marketing campaign, introducing yourself to decorators, designers, builders, shop owners, and keeping in touch with them on a regular (monthly at the beginning) basis.
Their will be a million other things that you are going to have to do other than be a craftsman, and unfortunatley some of them will be more important. I know that kind of hurts, and the purists will prolly come after me for it. But if you just want to make furniture, go work for someone else.
"What you do off the job is determining factor in how far you will go on the job." - Zig
By the way, I think you can do it.
Thank you winemane for bringing this thread back...........I was reading, hoping it would get better, but never did.
The fact that this young man had the balls to stick his work out there and ask his question is indication for me that he has a desire to "perform". That's a great place for Brandon55 to start.
I appreciate your thread.
Got a review here in the Fine Woodworking Books/Video Critique Blog-
http://blogs.taunton.com/n/blogs/blog.aspx?nav=main&entry=7&webtag=fw-bookreviews
Hi Brandon. I make a lot of furniture and I must be good because nothing comes back, but then it might be my prices...it is all free to family or charity. I still love to make things even if I don't make any money. The same is true with my golf hobby. Now making woodworking a career is a whole different subject.....you have to make money. Take your chairs and their associated costs and try to sell them. Use at least $15 per hour for you time. I admire anyone that can carve out a life they want, but it is hard. There is more to Sam Maloof than his ability to make a chair. He had a lot of training, education, experiences, talking ability, friendships, and as he has said many times..long hours and hard work. You are looking at him in his 80's. My daughter and son-in-law have Fine Art degrees, but money is hard to come by, but they would not change a thing and know they are in their correct fields no matter what comes down. You might try working with with an experienced woodworker for a while to pick up operations,selling, etc. My advise also is to try it while you can. Life gets complicated as kids come and mortgages come due. I use to tell my kids when they were trying to figure out what they were going to be that first decide the area, like building a house. You can be the architect, designer, carpenter, plumber, or painter, but still be in the house building business. A lot has to do with your brains, education, and talent. You will know what you are capable of until you try it. Good luck.
Again I would like to thank everybody for there comments. I believe that the joinery in these chairs do not require me to use stretchers. I weigh about 260lbs and there is know sign of any movement when I use these chairs. I think if the chairs were made with mortise and tenon joinery I would definitely use stretchers.
I will stick myself out there one more time. Again I have been woodworking for a 11/2 years and still collecting tools and knowledge on the way. My wife has know experience making a website but she has made me one. So before I tell you what my website is I just want to let you know that it is also a work in progress. The website is less of an issue versus trying to get good pictures. So I am in the process of consulting with a photographer. once again I would like to say this is our first time making a website. The chairs are not on there yet.
So I would be happy to receive comments on the website both positive and negative.
Thanks Brandon
http://www.BSRWoodworks.com  
That is a solid basic site.
I like the general colors and everything worked flawlessly on my browser.But the way, you have a lot of nice work there.
if you are looking for suggestions, here are a few quick ideas.1- instead of a generic 'gallery 1' and 'gallery 2' you might want to separate you work by
catagory, i.e. chairs, tables, cabinets/dressers, etc. Especially as you get more work, this
could help to organize things.2- where are those nice chairs you showed us in knots??3- I am not sure if I like the 'details ony' shots on the home page. I know a lot of people do this (it has a certain appeal), but I think it's important to show people what you do right away as a reward for their visiting your site. You want to pull them in and make them want more. I think the details are more appealing to other woodworkers rather than clients.
Let the clients be drawn in by the whole piece, THEN show them the sexy detail shots.
What if the center photo was a chair and the two on either side were detials... perhaps a comprimise is in order.
This is a matter of opinion, so don't change it on my account.Keep your wife, she does excellent work.
I will tell my wife that she is a keeper. I agree with you about the generic gallery pages and I do plan on changing that once I have enough pieces for each category.
Thanks Brandon
Great work. I am a hobbyist who is still trying a lot of things for the first time. In fact, it seems like everything I try is for the first time. Though I do not intend to make it a career, I do intend to make it a lifelong pursuit. One thing to keep in mind, for better or for worse, if you choose to make it your career, it may cease to be your hobby and thus your escape...know that going in. I think your work looks great, and you are obviously trying a lot of things. I think more seasoning will only make you better, especially when all the designs you have been experimenting with morph into your own style. I agree with the comments on your website. I think that I would shoot different pictures of the pieces. They all look like they are floating in space and (in my opinion) the way they are shot cheapens the look of the pieces. I would shoot them on different backgrounds with some inset photos of the details. You want people to visualize these great pieces in their homes, and most people are terrible visualizers. I also agree about the home page. How about a main shot of a half finished piece in your shop that changes to a shot of a beautiful finished piece? Your wife should be able to do that, it looks like she's got some skills. Good luck. Keep experimenting.
Brandon, I've followed this thread from the start, and finally decided to throw my two cents at you. You're chairs don't excite me. It appears their well made but, the design looks clunky. Chairs are very difficult to make from a design and strength standpoint. It takes balance and compromise of both to accomplish a great design that will hold up to use and abuse.
As for going Pro, only you can decide if you're able to financially sustain yourself building Furniture. I would say, be prepared to do whatever it takes to make ends meet. Whether it's cabinets or even carpentry work, sometimes things like that have to be done just to keep the money flowing. Right now I'm building Museum Exhibits.Furniture...the Art of a FurnitureMaker
I could send you a picture of my wife instead. That might excite you. I personally can't stand thin chairs that look they will break when you sit on them. So I personally will take chunky any day of the week.
Brandon
Pic of your Wife,Hmmm, better not, get both of us in trouble.Furniture...the Art of a FurnitureMaker
One can design and build a chair that has a supportive look to it and yet have it appear balanced. Clunky is not necessary nor is it (to most people, I'd wager) desirable. You seem to be defending the design of the chairs you showed photos of, as you have a right to do. However, you asked for input and some of us have taken you at your word and expresssed some negative points. I would expect you to be gracious enough to accept our opinion even though you might think we are full of balony and haven't the slightest idea of what you are trying to achieve. Nearly every custom furniture piece shown here and elsewhere (inculding the published stuff in FWW) suffers from an unfortunate design consideration. Consequently, nearly all furniture makers/designers need some design training. For myself, I've had a lot, yet I'm constantly looking for more: attending lectures, reading, asking myself questions, and on..... I think anyone thinking of going into this business as a serious occupation ought to be doing the same.
Really I can take any criticism. But I might as well have a little fun to. I don't think anybody that is making chairs for a second should ever think they have built the ultimate chair.
My question to everybody is why are you being so general with your critiques? I don't have a slang woodworking dictionary that breaks down clunky and chunky. What's to clunky the whole chair or just different aspects of the chair?
Also there are now five different chairs posted. They are all different sizes and some are round while others are straight. I'm really not being defensive I just can't stand everybody saying there clunky or chunky without saying any other comments.
So if you don't want to be more specific please stop making open ended comments.
Thanks Brandon
If I may hazard a guess on defining "clunky" and "chunky" it is about proportion, as are many issues of design.
Look at the first chair you posted, the walnut armchair. For the most part I personally find it pleasing but there are some issues that make it less pleasing than it could be - it misses the mark. The overall design seems to be of a heavy, substantial chair - there is nothing wrong with that, if that's your goal. However, you haven't fully committed to that concept. The front legs are substantially heavier than the rear legs - bad proportions. The thickness of the seat works with the rear legs, not the front legs. But then the backrest again seems substantial, and out of proportion with the seat and the lower rear legs. Get it? I'm not suggesting that all items need to have the same weight - that is boring. But you have to think about all the elements as they relate to each other, and think about how one element transitions to the other.
Now look at the armrests. They have curved fronts, they curve out from the backrest, and they present a top surface at an angle - they look as though they belong on a different chair, because those curved and angled elements aren't present to any significant degree anywhere else in the chair.
Look at your cherry side chair, which I personally don't care for as much (my taste) but is more successful as an integrated piece of design. You've committed to a curvilinear vocabulary on this chair, but some straight pieces go against that vocabulary. The curved edges and curved slats are in opposition to the straight side pieces of your backrest - this creates a design "tension" between elements, which can be a positive design conceipt if properly and sensitively executed - in this case I suspect it was not a conceipt. The front legs are at a significant taper - the only taper present on the chair. They don't belong there.
Strong design is about all the elements and their relation to each other. The overall conceipt can be whatever your imagination comes up with, and more power to you in that imagination. I am hesitent to offer "rules" of design, but..... RULE: Design elements can not exist in a vacuum, they must relate to every other element. Keep this in mind and make decisions based on this. You may end up making some poor decisions, but these you can learn from. Otherwise you risk Rube Goldbergian furniture - great if that's your goal, not so much when unintended.
For the record, my furniture design background is very limited, but I have a strong background in stage scenery and lighting design, with a little graphic design thrown in. Good design is good design and follows the same basic guidelines, from architecture to scenery to furniture.
Richard
Excellent advice, Winemane. I made the jump from hobby to pro in '03 and am still working hard to get it all together. In my 30 year engineering career, I ran some large projects and managed parts of companies. Great experience, but it's still a whole different ballgame when you're hanging out there all by yourself - lol.
You're right-on about the job satisfaction side of things. I know that I'm working harder than ever - for far less money - but I feel better than I have in years. Call me smug, but it's always a delight to go into the shop (my garage) in the morning, turn on the radio and listen to the traffic reports. Who said that commuting isn't fun?? - lol
I see that you're in St. Peters, MO. I grew up in Wentzville. I left in '66 and finally settled in CA in '73. My family is still around there, though.
Don -
I guess I was lucky that I didn't ask anyone for advice about this. SWMBO and I were both laid off in '03 - me in July and she in December. I had always planned to go "semi-pro" as a retirement job, but I really wanted (needed!) another 3-4 years as an engineer to get the retirement funds in better shape. I spent a couple of months looking for another engineering job and got nowhere (being over 50 is the kiss of death around here - lol), so I decided to go for it.
I think it's going to work out, but we ain't out of the woods yet. I had a pretty good year - until November. Four nice jobs went south on me in two weeks and nobody is doing anything now that the holidays are upon us.
The downside is that we've had to tap the equityline to get thru the rest of the year and Xmas will be a little thin this year. The upsides are that I have time to really learn the 3D Cad program I bought in late October; I've tweaked my business model to add pure design services instead of design/build; I've made some needed changes in the shop layout; and I'll have my bookwork all caught up before New Years. My accountant will love that. - lol
Don -
I can see that window just fine.........I can even reach the sill. I just need a longer ladder to get thru it 'cause I'm too old and fat to do chinups anymore. - lol.
I was in Telecom too for about eight years. I did outside plant design and construction and put miles of conduit and fiber all around the San Francisco Bay area. It's a real kick to be driving to a customer's house and suddenly recognize a street that I had put fiber in a few years ago.
The hardest part about running my own business is having to do it all. In the "old days", I had access to experts in legal, marketing & sales, HR, finance, etc. I just told them what I needed and it showed up a few days later. Now, I'm wearing all the hats and some of them don't fit very well - lol. I like designing and building. Everything else is a PITA!!!
Ahhh, a bit of light in an otherwise gloomy day. I just got an email from a customer who wanted three new bathroom vanities and some extensive changes to their existing kitchen cabinets. They've decided to buy another house and it will need all that - and more. He's planning to start designing after the holidays. Hmmm, did my ladder just grow another rung?? - lol
P.S.
My Mom claims that after my Dad retired, she told him that she had married him for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness or health...................but NOT FOR LUNCH!! He started a little business and worked for another 10 years - lol.
Edited 12/10/2006 1:14 pm by Dave45
Brandon,
Your chairs are beautiful and their is no question your work is marketable. Ok, most of the postings I have read have mentioned the business aspect as being your biggest hurdle, so my two cents would be to do it part time to start. Lets face it, unless you are catering to a very high end client base the furniture business is tough to compete with major brands.
With that said, your talent will allow you to compete in the high end custom furniture market. People who spend top dollar do not buy anything that isn't custom and they will pay whatever price you quote them for a one of a kind piece. Market yourself by giving your clients a referral credit. You build a business through word of mouth from satisfied customers who by way of their recommendation have already given you and your work great pricing power. As your client list grows so will your business.
This recipe will make for a smooth transition from one career to another. Your skill as a businessman will be evolve at a pace that will allow you to succeed. Compete with Crate & Barrel and you will lose, show someone who can afford anything something no one else can have, you will win!!!
Wish you luck,
Mike
PS- As your business grows start to market to builders. Make a piece for their model home at a small profit margin and have the builder market your products as options in the homes.
Brandon,
If you don't mind my asking, why do you want to pursue a career in woodworking? It can't be the money. :)
I think that in whatever any of us do, it helps to keep in mind the person / persons for whom we are doing it.
I am sure that whoever is now using the pieces displayed in your galleries appreciates what you have done for them, even if it was at no charge.
Monte
I think those chairs look nice. Also rxmpo is right on, if you try and compete with Crate and Barrel and others you will fail. I think the problem for "real craftsman" is that america in general is losing touch with quality work in favor of cheaper prices. Take for example tract housing, walmart, ikea and others. I worked for my fathers general contracting company in the 80's and 90's doing custom single family houses, remodels and some commercial tennant improvement stuff. My father is a perfectionist and would only take jobs where clients wanted real quality work. I read an good article in Fine Homebuilding that talked about how the trades are losing pride in their work because companies these days need to bang out a house in 90 days to make a profit. In 1993 my father closed the business because nobody was interested in paying top dollar for top quality work...also recession time.
So, IMO even though your work and most all the work I see on this site is outstanding, it's hard to find folks willing to pay for your craftsmanship. Don't get me wrong, they are out there, but the market is certainly small and probably shrinking.
So how much capital does it take to start your own furniture making business?
$50k, $100k, $200k,...??
The age old maxim is, "To become a millionaire as a furniture maker, start with at least two." Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
very true!!... maybe I should practice my golf swing and join the PGA tour to make my millions.. I'm sure it's much easier... ; )
It is decidedly not de rigeur to start a woodworking business well capitalized. Of course that's stupid advice. Let somebody else be the starving artist (they can brag about it here on Knots). In the meantime, you can still eat and make good business decisions because you aren't living and making decision based on fear - decisions that will have you practically giving work away (unless that's part of a cogent marketing plan; more later); taking on work you never intended to do - trim carpentry instead of the chairs you dreamed of making, the whole gamut of stuff that makes you LOSE FOCUS. Once the focus is gone you might as well pack it in.
Hi Brandon,
I don't know if someone has already said this and I missed it or what- Okay, I have two things to say:
1) You're good enough to be a professional furniture maker and better than most. So put that one to rest. And you have some sense for esthetics and that's not a given. In fact, I find most woodworkers are desperately seeking designs. I don't find the ability to design goes hand in hand with the ability to build.
2) I'm kind of in the same boat as yourself (as i see it). But I've thrown my hat into the ring with other craftsmen building a style people desire. I have my own twist, preferences etc, but basically there's a market for the furniture I make which I didn't create.
You may have it a tiny bit harder since you need to first create that market. You need to first convince people that they should buy your style, then convince them to buy your furniture. People I meet are much too stubborn for that. But the advantage is that if you are successful at the former, you're the only supplier!
So the question isn't whether you've got what it takes to be a pro furniture maker. The question should be: do you have what it takes to be a trend setter?
Personally, I don't care for your style. I wouldn't have it in my house. Don't like Sam Maloof's furniture or George Nakashima's furniture either. (I'm trying to make a point so I'm exaggerating a little. I really like that desk on your website because it has a funky traditional/shaker look. I like traditional.) But as I read it, that's not relevant. A better question might be, where/how, to whom shall I market this furniture (philadelphia furniture show comes to mind)? The follow up- is anybody else in the art/furniture biz and what is the market like? I think a couple guys here are/were.
One more thing that may help. I remember visiting Nakashima's place when George was still alive. Its like a japanese house (made out of concrete) and very avant garde. He designed it himself. He was an architect. You had to take off your shoes. There was a whole lot going on there that had nothing to do with a good looking and comfortable place to sit down. He became a sort of cult figure, not unlike Warhol. To me, a flitch with three sticks is not a piece of art. Nakashima's art was marketing himself, his ideas, his lifestyle etc.
I don't know if you have to do that, but I sure think it helps. So more practical advice may be to move to a college town, drive a bio-diesel truck, and tell people your wood is saving the earth or something.
In short, forget the fashion advice of 50 year old woodworkers. And no disrepsect intended, but any moron knows its better to start a business with $500,000 in the bank. In my mind the question is, what does it take to be successful? I think you have all the woodworking skill you need. Without trying to undersell pottery barn, I think you need something besides your skill and your art work. And I think if you look at successful business people, you always find that something extra.
Sorry this is so long, but i have a quick rant. MBA's all try to tell you to make a business plan. But I don't see a lot of wealthy MBA's. I don't think business plans work. Take Martha Stewart. She was a beautiful model, and a Wall street genius. She married a rich broker she met on the street, chucked it all after they made a fortune and became inspired during a 6 month staty in Tuscany. When she came back, she catered parties for her rich friends (who wouldn't want a beautiful blond in their kitchen who could cook?). That's not a business plan. And I think its evidence that business plans alone don't work. Since then, she's played upon women's insecurities (now there's a business plan!)
I wish you luck
Adam
PS- here's my furniture business plan- I want to get on Survivor and make an fool of myself on some island. Maybe get in a fight with some woman. But I'll make the best darn grass hut that show has ever seen. Who won't want to buy furniture from the guy from survivor who got beat up by Helga the aerobics instructor!
Edited 12/13/2006 11:20 pm ET by AdamCherubini
Adam,
<<Who won't want to buy furniture from the guy from survivor who got beat up by Helga the aerobics instructor!>>
That's one of the funniest things I've read yet on this forum! ;-)Beste Wünschen auf eine Fröhlichen Weihnachten und ein glückliches Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Adam
Thank you for taking the time to express your feelings on the subject. There are a lot of different styles out there that really aren't for me. But I do feel if I can try a little bit of everything then over time I will be able to create my own style by using all the different techniques I learned on the way.
PS if you have a website please share it.
Thanks Brandon
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