I’ve not had a proper workbench since I started my woodworking hobby last year, so I’m in the midst of building the “rock solid plywood bench” from FW #181.
The legs and stretchers are cut, glued and curing – I’ll hopefully be assembling the next time I get some time in the shop.
One thing that’s mentioned briefly in the article is drilling holes for bench dogs. This is something I want to do, but I wanted to ask a few questions before hand…
1. what’s the proper size for bench dog holes? Do you drill ’em with a traditional drill bit, forstner bit or something else?
2. Is there any suggestion for the pattern of the holes? How far in from the edge, how far apart? (I’m sure the answer will be “it depends” on this one!)
3. The top is 3/4″ MDF on top of 3/4″ birch plywood. Is there anything I need to think about when drilling the holes to minimize tear/chip out?
4. Any suggestions on a “not too expensive” vise?
Thanks for any help you can provide!
Matt
Replies
Picks your dogs first, then make the holes fit. Round dogs, like LV's, and holddowns tend to be 3/4" diameter to the best of my knowledge.
The pattern depends upon the vises you use and how you like to work, what scale you work in, whether your bench is located for access to both sides (as opposed to up agains the wall) and several other factors.
To drill the holes, one of those "drill press" attachments for an electric hand drill is likely the best option (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=42322&cat=1,180,42311,42321&ap=1), but even just a thick plank with a square hole drilled through on an actual drill press will help to keep the holes striaght.
Forstner or spade bit is probably best.
You can clamp a sacrificial board to the bottom fo the benchtop to prevent tearout.
What type of vise are you looking for? Front, tail, patternmakers, full width end?
Edited 1/16/2007 11:44 am ET by Samson
Edited 1/16/2007 12:17 pm ET by Samson
samson, I didn't even realize there was such a selection of vises!
Just looking at the names (and thinking about where I'm putting the bench, the full width end is out... as for front, tail, patternmakers... no clue yet, will have to do some research! My hope is to find something pretty versatile (but not terribly expensive) - I'm still new to woodworking, so I'd like to leave options open as I find new techniques.
As for the bench dogs, I was assuming I'd either find something at Woodcraft or order from LV. It'll be up against a wall, does that imply something special for the pattern/placement of the holes?
The LV round dogs are excellent, and their hold down is very very useful.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=31127&cat=1,41637
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=31149&cat=1,41637
You really need to figure out the vise issue, before tackling the hole layout issue. Start with your budget. How much do you want to spend? If you have a couple of hundred, and want to keep it easy, you might consider buying two quick release front vises - like the 9" Jet or the Anant 52 1/2. You could mount one as a traditional front vise and the other on an end to function as a tail vise. The hole layout would then be relatively straight forward.
Edited 1/16/2007 12:01 pm ET by Samson
To illustrate, here is a fairly pedestrian, but useful sort of layout. This is not to scale, you may want more or less holes , but it gives you a sense. As far as the end vise mounting, one question would be whether your bench's legs leave enough room to accomodate the rods?
Dunno how many posts are even before me at this point, but THIS is exactly why I read these forums. This, as a basic layout, is wonderful. Thanks to all who share their knowledge.
kummell,
There's lots of ways to keep the cost down and still get the functionality. Pony vises are inexpensive and work well for end vises. For dogs, I made up several using 3/4" dowel and some 2" square stock cut to various thicknesses. Hold downs can be gotten at Woodcraft for about $9.
Make sure you have the holes in the bench line up with the holes in the vise....and for round objects, you'll want a three or four point contact.
from the picture that samson sent and your posting, BG, I'm picking up the alignment of the bench dog holes and holes in the vise - can you elaborate as to why that's important?
my (naive) view, is that you would just use the bench dogs to hold things in place - when/how would you use the vise and dogs together? (My thinking has been that you use the vise to hold things perpendicular to the work surface - is that wrong? Are you pinching things between the vise and the bench dogs?)
Thanks again for the help!
Matt
View Image
View Image
Edited 1/16/2007 4:10 pm ET by Samson
Hello Samson,
I'm in the market for an end-vise and I noticed your post here. I was leaning toward the Veritas Twin-Scew, but the wallet isn't quite prepared for the price. By any chance would you care to pass along the name/manufacturer/specs of the vise you have incorporated into your bench? Any issues with racking of same?
Thanks inadvance,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob, sorry it I confused you. Those are pics I found on the web to help the OP understand how a vise and dogs work together. That's not my bench. Mine is here if you're interested:
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2445101660032524639SUxbwd
Again, sorry I can't help with specific vice info. If I was going to try to do an end vise like that in the photo in my earlier post (front vise pressed into end vise service), I'd probably use one of the German vises sold though Lie-Nielsen. They are top rate and not all that expensive for their quality. I used the tail vise from the LN line on my own bench as shown in the above link.
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?cat=520 (the shoulder vise is only $135, but man, that chain drive shoulder at $285 looks worth saving one's pennies for!)
Edited 1/16/2007 8:31 pm ET by Samson
Edited 1/16/2007 8:52 pm ET by Samson
Samson,
I followed the link in your post to the "home and garden" website. I hope others following this thread will do the same. The photos of your bench, cabinets, etc. are absolutely stunning. I really don't know what else to say.
Many thanks!
-Nazard
Thanks, Nazard, but you are far too kind. Most of the folks round here are far more talented, skilled, and experienced than I am at working wood. I'm at best an intermediate level hobbiest.
My bench design borrows heavily from the Fortune Nelson design in Taunton's "Workbench Book." My cabinet is just a biscuited together birch ply carcass, some poplar drawers mounted on accuglide slides. and some scrap cherry for drawer fronts. Nothing too fancy.
But I'm glad you liked the pictures.
Thanks for the kind words.
Samson,
Tell you what, send the bench to me!! Better yet, I'll trade you mine for yours! I would love to have a bench like that and a very similar one will some day be in my shop.
At this point in the development of mine, I can't incorporate a shoulder vise without some major reconfiguring. Also, my budget is somewhat stretched with everything else going on getting the shop completed.
I'm making mine from a recycled solid core birch door, attached to a recycled double 3/4" plywood bench from my computer days at Wang Labs., that up to this point has worked well, although not complete. I have attached a pic
My mistake has been trying to get a cazillion things done all at the same time!
I still need to attach the apron on the end before installing the vise. Your LN vise certainly looks tempting though.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Looks like a nice productive shop to me!
My first bench was made from fir lumber for the base and a solid core door for the top, with a bit of hardwood for the apron. It's a freaking tank. I did long for an end vise though.
When a recent home rennovation allowed me to set up a bigger shop, I decided to take the plunge and make the bench that I had come to wish for insofar as allowing better stock holding capabilities with the vises and dogs, but also by allowing easy clamping on the edges and across the underneath of the bench with bar clamps - so no apron. Also, there was no good way to move the old one! LOL I've been very happy with the new one for around two years now.
As you can see from the picture, one drywall panel is partially blown out from the wall; the result of a tree falling on the roof! It's since been repaired and I've also added an apron to the end of the bench, cabinet under for storage of hand power tools.
I can't wait till I retire in another year so I can build a real bench. I must say that FWW has inspired me as have all you folks on the forum here.
Tomorrow I'm getting some lathe chisels and a motor for an old Dunlap lathe and am going to embark on a go at turning. Need to make some handles for the files and bench chisels.
Thanks for your help,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
thanks to everyone for all the great insights - I'm really starting to pull together the picture of how I'll use the bench. After seeing the pics of your bench, Samson (and the lie nielsen website), I can really see the benefit of the tail vise. When I move on from this plywood m&t bench to a "proper" hardwood bench, I'll definitely incorporate that.
On the way home tonight, I stopped and bought the drill press attachment for my hand drill, a 3/4" forstner bit and some 3/4" doweling (oh, and of course a few more clamps, always needing clamps it seems!)
Now I just need to choose my vise and I'll be ready to go!
I also have to say that the plans for that plywood workbench are pretty great if anyone out there's thinking about building an affordable bench - from a materials point of view, I'm probably less that $130 into the project and all I really need is a vise now.
Samson,
I did another of my now famous DUHS!!!!! I just looke at the bench, not realizing that you posted a tour of your shop. Your shop is way too neat for me :) :) :) Very, very nice.
I'm sure your furniture reflects your fastidious attention to detail. I've been woodworking off and on for about 25 years. For a long stretch back in the 80's I essentially rebuilt the proverbial This Old House. Now having that completed, I've changed my focus toward more furniture related projects, am gaining a decent collection of old donated planes that I'm restoring, getting a lathe working and trying to complete my woodshop, whew.............
I'm getting some pics ready to post of the work in progress woodshop. I will be posting them in another thread "Pictures of your shop" here in Knots.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Kummell,
I'm going to assume Samsons picture post answered your question about the alignment of the dog holes between the vise and workbench.
The workbench is a wonderful tool for holding stock securly while you do your work. There are many simple jigs like a bench hook that help with shooting joints. If you can pick up a couple of large wooden clamps you'll find them very useful, inconjunction with teh vise, to hold stock perpendicular to the bench top. I often use my workbench with a couple of cleats and wedges to glue up panels. etc.
As you can see the workbench starts to eliminate the need for several other expensive solutions...
Kummell,I just added a set of dog holes between my original holes. It was easier than making the originals. First, I bored holes through an oversized piece of 10/4 hardwood at my drill press to ensure perpendiculatity. Second, I located the holes on the bench and formed a depression with an awl. Next, I centered the hardwood hole by engaging a Forstner bit tip in that depression to locate the wooden block which I then clamped firmly. Fourth, I removed the Forstner bit and bored a hole using a Silver & Deming bit from Harbor Freight using the hole in the hardwood as a drill bushing. A 1/2-inch drill was required for this bit. There was very little breakout under the bench which surprised me.In your case, I recommend that you add some thickness where your holes penetrate the top. You could (& should) use hardwood to do this. Simply glue a strip about 3/4 thick under the table. I have only one row of holes with free space under them. The thickener would be no problem for me. If you want two rows, you may have to work around some structure.Good luck!Cadiddlehopper
My current bench top is a solid core door, with a 3/4-inch plywood top surface.
I drilled all the way through the door with a 5/16 drill, did a very light countersink on the plywood, and inserted flanged 1/4-20 threaded inserts from the bottom. (It's harder to pull them through, than pull them out.)
I make bench dogs, stops, hold downs, etc, from scrap and attach them to the table with bolts. I think the threaded inserts while not "traditional", are far more versatile / practical than dogs. They don't cam at all, and can be readily shaped to fit the work.
The threaded inserts are also really handy for attaching jigs, and portable machines on plywood bases to the bench when I'm using them.
I like the inserts enough that even if I decide to build a "traditional" bench I'm going to stay with the inserts. I might go up to a 5/16-18 or 3/8-16 thread size though.
Just a voice from experiance. If you are using a forsner bit and a hand held drill watch out for "drift" often the bit will want to cut at a slight angle. I have seen people set up a plunge router to drill the holes. One approach to the holes would be to add them as you work that way you can only have the holes where you need them an example would be if you only plane small box tops you would not need holes every six inches the length of your bench. Anyway good luck.
Troy
Some of the workbench books suggest spacing the dog holes a distance between them LESS THAN the travel of the vise opening. So if your vise can move, say, 6 inches (don't forget to take into account any thickness of wood faces on the metal vice face which will reduce the effective opening), then the dog holes should be spaced something less than 6 inches, like maybe 5 1/2 inches. That way, you can work your vice to secure any positioned workpiece.
Rule out metal dogs because you can slip with a tool and ding the cutting edge. I made mine of wood (like many decisions, for budgetary reasons), and they've worked well for many years. Wood is gentler to tools that slip, and also to the work piece you are holding in place. I believe a narrow metal dog pushed with the force of a vice would dent the sides of a work piece.
I used good quality 1/2" plywood (to stay under the surface level of most pieces you would work) with 3/4" dowels drilled through and left long enough to go down through the bench top. In other words, the shape is a letter "T". Naturally the holes are 3/4" to match. I found the dowels a little too tight at first, and sanded them to make them easier to slip in and out. To keep the dowels attached to the top of the dog, curf the top and drive in a wedge which will lock them in, in addition to glue. Then sand the top smooth so that the dowel does not stick up. If you use hard wood rather than hard wood, be sure to make the wedge run at a right angle to the grain so there is no splitting.
My holding system has evolved over the years, so I'll share with you what works for me. I have vices with dogs (one purchased cheap, and one found at an estate sale), but I rarely use them for their dogs to hold wood on the bench. I do use them as vices of course, just not for their dogs, to hold work to the top of the bench. Rather, I use opposing dogs, small filler boards (when called for), and opposing wedges to clamp work pieces in place. Don't put the holes in the center of the dog - that would make all sides even and render the dog less flexible. Rather, put the dowel off-center so that you can change the space from the dog to the work by rotating the dog. For instance, if the dog is 3" square, put the dowel center 1" from one edge (making it 2" from the other side) and 3/4" from the adjoining side (making it 2 1/4" from its opposite). That gives you alternative spacing of 3/4", 1", 2", and 2 1/4". You dial up the spacing by rotating the dog. I have some 1/2" scraps that I use as additional fillers, and several narrow wedges, about 6" long and with gentle slopes. I put the work on the bench, find the closest dog holes on each side, put in dogs rotated to their closest, and then push two opposing wedges in against the dog. Two opposing wedges keep the pressure square to the work, and result in plenty of holding force. You can tap them snug with a mallet if you like. If the dogs are not close enough for wedges, add a small filler square of appropriate size.
This system requires dog holes about 12" apart along the front edge of the bench. I made two rows, first about 6" from the front, and then about 12" from the front. I don't use four dogs at a time - the two rows give you flexibility as you chose clamping points for different sized work pieces. I added other holes along both ends, and along the back edge as well. You'll use the other holes for longer boards where you just push against them.
I have about 6 dogs, not all the same size, but that was not a plan so much as how it worked out. I planed a slight angle on the faces of the dogs, angling down toward the bench top, on the theory that it would help hold work down, rather than slightly flexing and pushing the work up off the surface. In retrospect I'm not sure there was value in that. Let experience be your guide here.
I used a forstner bit to drill the holes, but don't think it matters. I didn't have another 3/4" bit other than for the brace. I drilled all the way through, but then later I capped the bottoms to keep dust from falling through into drawers and the cabinet under. That means periodic vacumming out of the holes. No big deal. Drilling down, so no tear out on top, and I don't see the bottom of my bench (drawers and cabinets under) so I didn't care about tear out on the bottom.
Hope the info helps. Good luck!
You know, I have been thinking about some kind of system for my bench as I have no means-other than clamps-of holding work down on my bench. I really like your idea.
Thanks for posting that. I hope you don't mind if I use some of your ideas. :-)
Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
Matt,
I'm a bit late in this thread, but here is my tuppence worth and a few photos from dog holes I drilled today:
I avoided drilling too many holes before understanding better where I might need to hold stuff.
The too-many-holes syndrome was also dealt with by using Veritas dogs and pups, which increase the reach of your vise-opening, effectively, so allow less holes.
Use of a side dog also allows you to hold planks on the side of the bench, edge-up for planing, without having dogs/dogholes in the bench side.
Use of a stop-board on the bench end opposite the tail vise, and on the back apron, also helps to reduce the number of dog holes.
If the pics don't make sense, please ask whatever you like.
Lataxe
Lataxe, you've taken this "by hand" thing a bit too much to heart - drilling your bench dog holes by hand?!? Showoff ;-)
Thanks for the pics - I'm interested in know more about the side bench stops... you mentioned they for edge-up work - how do they work exactly?
Seeing pics of everyone's benches makes me want to build a "real" bench, but honestly I'm excited to just have "a" bench. Also, thanks for sharing pics of your workshop - looking at those I realized what I was doing wrong in the basement, so I'll be re-arranging things this weekend - I think it was the table saw placement that was the real ah-hah.
In other news, I'm sneaking out of the office and taking the long way home this afternoon so I can go vise shopping at Woodcraft. I'm sure I'll come home with some other toys, too (maybe some of those veritas wonder dogs like you have).
Finally, what the heck is a lataxe? a kummell is easy, it's an after dinner liquor (aw heck, it's my surname), but a lataxe? are you really french and you're referring to "la taxe"?
I hope your wife's garden survived the crazy weather you guys have had over there...
Matt,
See post 33300.56 for more pics of the side dog and an explanation.
Machines often work best at an angle to one another, if you need to clear the ends of long planks and such. My bandsaw table is higher than the TS table, so long stuff on the BS goes over the TS but long stuff on the TS needs to avoid the bandsaw. Also, the doors to the shed can be opened to allow long stuff on the TS to poke out, over a roller stand or two.
Lataxe is the Cumbrian word for a froe, a crude tool consisting of a large, straight, downward facing blade on the end of an axe handle, used to rive green wood. The handle is used to position the blade over the end of the log/billet and then the bladeback back is walloped with a heavy knocker (a crude mallet). The wood begins to split and then you extend and steer the split by leaning on the handle, one way or another.
This is my general approach to life and everything in it - rive the rascal into shape. :-)
The ladywife's garden is a sturdy affair and has suffered no damage from the mad winds, apart from a few dings from a roving bin lid. The cat has not been up the plumb tree today, either, mind.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
RE: <<DOGHOLES-1.jpg>> Very nice sir. I see that your Neanderhood is coming along just fine! ;-)
Very nice pics of shop and bench. You've managed to get quite the shop in a fairly restricted space. Quite ingenious.
For those that are interested, I'll be posting pics of my 'umble shop shortly.
Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Edited 1/22/2007 2:05 pm by pzgren
James,
I am most interested in your shed (er, shop) although I expect to be getting even more glum when I see it is 34 acres and requires a ski-lift to get about in. You know, it can be rather difficult when you lads insist on using the language incorrectly. (See how I am already grouchy at the thought of your HUGE shed and its many planes, chisels, et al).
Nevertheless, what are the attributes of a shed (the proper name for your "shops") in the US? I hope you have not reserved the word for some rude bodily function or other embarrasing concept.
Lataxe, volumetrically-challenged.
A shop is someplace you work in or buy things in. A shed is either something your dog does (shed fur) or it is an outbuilding that you store things in usually with a roof that is sloped in only one direction and generally fairly low pitch like 4/12 or less. This is called (big surprise here) a shed roof.
So we have wood shops if it was a wood shed it would be an out building used to store this and that made of wood. (and generally falling in or rotting)
But I understand why you would have difficulty with this as you most likely refer to the hood of a car as a bonet when it is a hood and the trunk as a boot. When we all know that bonets and boots are something that you put on peaple not cars. However as you still have an entire country that can not remember the correct side of the road to drive on what can we expect? :)
Doug Meyer
You know I really do want to spend a couple weeks over there but I am not sure how I would do on the wrong side of the road.
Doug,
You mention that, "You know I really do want to spend a couple weeks over there but I am not sure how I would do on the wrong side of the road".
Of course, the answer is that you would have a crash and crumple the bonnet, whilst all the parcels and any bodies would fly out the boot, in an incriminating manner.
So, you would be nicked for driving on the right (ie the wrong) side of the road; carrying parcels in an unauthorised and dangerous manner; and murder (which I believe you call homicide, a word sounding like a brand of strong disinfectant to our Limey lugs).
That is one shedfull of crimes, all because you drive incorrectly and don't understand that it is naughty to shoot people you take agin' with your many guns (which are not allowed here, as we are civilised and nice, even to children and Americans, who can both be annoying albeit likeable).
Lataxe, a Limey
No No No, Murder is what you do with those guns you are talking about. Being and idiot and running someone down is Negligent Homicide.
As for Shag I thought that was a term referring to carpet from the 1970's?
Now what I don't understand is if I hit this poor lady and crumple her hat what in the world is causing all of these packages and people to fly out of her boots? And why where they in her boots to begin with? Didn't that make it hard for her to walk around? In fact now that I think about it I am sure that it was all of the stuff she had stuffed in her foot gear that caused her to fall in front of my rental car and crumple her hat. Yeah yeah that is how it happened! :)
And I would not trust the charity as we don't do anything in the sheds over here anymore and we don't make them either. I think this stems from people frowning on using a belt oh misbehaving kids. So once taking them out to the wood shed became unacceptable I guess we gave up on our sheds over here.
Doug Meyer
Lataxe,
Actually, I'm one of those poor, poverty-stricken Colonists who, alas, has no shed....
Would you care to contribute to the Christian Woodworkers' Shed Fund to help a poor, shedless woodworker such as PzGren? For your contribution, you'll receive a photo of the poor shedless woodworker whose shed you are sponsoring, a photo of the shed you help build, a complete life history of this sad, poor shedless woodworker, and periodic photos of objects made from wood in the shed that you help provide. For just $2.89 (US) per day (cash only in small, unmarked, non-sequentially serial numbered bills, please), you can sponsor a poor shedless colonial woodworker and help him/her improve his/her lot in life. To sponsor a poor, shedless woodworker, such as PzGren and help him improve his woodworking with a real shop in a real shed, call 1 (800) 123-4567 immediately, that's 1 (800) 123-4567.......
Actually, my woodworking shop is in my garage -- about 22 feet X 22 feet/484 square feet (ca. 6.7 X 6.7 metres/44.9 square metres, for you non-Imperialist, metrified souls) -- sharing space with the now-boxed-up Christmas and Easter decorations, camping gear, the freezer, a weight bench, various and sundry misc items, yard tools, etc.
<<Nevertheless, what are the attributes of a shed (the proper name for your "shops") in the US?>>
Doug gave a better explanation of the attributes of a shed than I could..... Really not much different than your typical home-grown British-style ones, except, of course, that ours are on the wrong side of the road, er....pond.....
<<I hope you have not reserved the word for some rude bodily function or other embarrasing concept.>>
No, that would be "shag," which I believe is a Britishism.....?Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Hey Kummell,
I just put a LV wonder dog and one of their round dogs on my laminated bench top. I don't know if I did something wrong; but when I tighten the wonder dog the piece I'm trying to hold seems to rise off the bench a little. ???
I've got to call them and see what's up. The holes seem to be straight enough.
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