Hello all,
I guess I qualify very much as a newby here 🙂 although I have been “lurking” for quite a while. Thanks to all for the numerous informative posts by so many of you over the past months! I have, and am still learning a lot.
By way of background, I am a recently retired biology prof. who has an avocation for working with his hands. I am presently doing all the finishing work in the house we recently built (learning as I go; forget about finding decently-priced tradespeople in a booming Alberta. If you can even get one to return a phone call, the price they will quote is worse than exorbitant (try $100/hr. or more, for example, before materials).
Anyway, what I want to do is to set up a woodworking shop (because I want to, not because I feel I have to). In the process I have acquired several necessary machines, and want to augment that by making whatever I can. Partly the exercise is to practice my skills before tackling the more demanding things like cabinet-making…
My question concerns making home-made machines for the shop. For example, this week, I began (bass-ackwards, it seems) making a disc sander as shown in ShopNotes 16:96. At first blush, it looked like something that would not only be useful but might be good practice in building from a plan. The MDF was cheap ($30 + a bit), so I proceeded to cut up all the pieces as described. Today I went shopping for the various bits of hardware that are required… ooopps! wake-up call! The rest of the components, motor, pulleys, shafts, belts, bearings, etc., etc.,are going to add another $350 or thereabouts to the final cost. There are many disc sanders available on the market for much less than this!
So my question is, what is the general experience of all you more experienced woodworkers out there? Is there any benefit to making one’s own machines as opposed to buying off the shelf? Are plans like this one intended for innocent neophytes, or is there actually sometimes a cost benefit to building one’s own things?
Since I’m retired and not working to make any $$, time is not a factor.
Many thanks for any feedback.
Ted
Replies
My experience has been about the same as your's when I've thought of building some of those items. You can't by the parts as cheaply as the manufacturers bulk buying. The only thing I can imagine is that they are written for guys like my friend who goes to garage sales and auctions and buys boxes of motors and parts and has a barn full of them that cost him very little or nothing.
So you can either be like me and buy the tools you want or become a scrounger like my friend and build your own.
Jack
Jack,I hadn't really thought about the possibility of scrounging in "garbage sales", but your suggestion is a good one. Now, to find such beasts in a relatively "rural" area might be more of a challenge than for those of you who live close to large centers.thanks for your suggestion.Ted
You'd be surprised what you can find at a farm sale, us farmers never throw anything away our heirs just sell it.
Jack
either that or some parts come home in the lunch box.
I've never made any of the shop notes machines, but I have done several or their jigs. Most work out OK or better.
they did have a nice disc sander plan several years ago that fit on a lathe. just money for the wood and a few bucks for parts (bolts, etc)
Ted,
Welcome aboard!
I think making your own shop built machines is best done when you have some of the parts already laying around or readily accessible cheap. My dad and I built an oscillating spindle sander with an a/c motor, gear motor, and steel stand from another discarded machine. Total cost was next to nothing.
As for your disc sander, I bought a 20" disc sander off of a guy on ebay with a brand new 3 ph motor for $350. I added a stastic phase converter for another $60 or so (off of ebay as well). My point is - if you can wait it out long enough you may stumble upon some really good deals at auction or on ebay - and it might not make it worth your while to build your own.
If you are adamant - I think FWW put out a book titled "shop made machines" years back.
Good luck,
Lee
Lee,Thanks for the heads-up on eBay. Although I'm more than familiar with it, I didn't really think of looking there before "diving into (apparently shallow) water.Ted
Hey Ted,
I forgot to mention - if you are not familiar with ebay then be careful - there are the occasional scams (though not so much with woodworking equipment).
It's best to look for a while and ask questions (here, if you want). Plenty of people around here buy from ebay and I'm sure they would all be willing to show you the ropes or steer you away from a bum deal.
Lee
Hi Ted,
...from Old to another, welcome.
I think the best answer for you is where do you wish to concentrate your time. You obviously have an affinity to woodworking. You may also like to tinker, so to speak.
If your goal is simply to do the woodworking I would suggest you concentrate on that aspect. If costs of tools are a main consideration there are venues for less expensive tools. Many from people upgrading, some from reconditioning through outlets such as Harbor Freight, garage and/or estate sales.
I, for example, am lucky enough to have waited and budgeted for many years and now enjoy buying new for the simple fact that I may have the latest in technologies, "clean dirt" to start with and the fact I'm not piecing together from missing parts. I buy the best I can afford. I fondle (yes) ;0) them as I wish and plan for the next one.
A friend of mine, on the other hand is kind of a scrounger and enjoys that aspect. But, he has little or no time to devote to the woodworking aspect as he is always tinkering and tweaking things.
It all depends on how you wish to spend the time. I am now retired 3 1/2 years and am amazed at how busy I can be and how fast the time goes when I'm having fun. There are so many things I wish to do and don't know if I'll ever accomplish any of them.
Whatever you do you must ENJOY it. Do whatever you wish to because you want to. That is what you work so hard for.
Regards,
bum
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Thanks, OldBeach,Primarily, yes, I love working with my hands, but "tinkering" with something that should otherwise work is not my idea of fun. Actually doing something productive is much more in line with my goals.Cost is certainly always a consideration, but not to the point of obsession. If big $$ can be saved by building something myself, then that is what I will try to do, within reason, or course. If the difference is between buying "off the shelf" and building it myself for the simple pleasure of doing so, where cost difference is minimal, the choice is obvious (buy the sucker!).Having spent most of a lifetime in academia, I'm not really worldly-wise in so far as buying "stuff" in "garbage-sales" but maybe that is what I need to adapt to in order to get yet more stuff to fill the garage (please don't forward this to my wife; she already comments on the need for more storage space :) ). Thanks for your reply,Ted
Another aspect I forgot to mention and I'm sure many here will soon advise is to try and learn some of the original skills of using hand tools whenever possible.
I am now beginning to appreciate that aspect more. I love my plug-ins, the woodmunchers, but there are times that it is nice to tune into some great music, not breathe in dust or have to wear hearing protection.
Hand tools allow that. To become proficient in their use is a skill and art in and of itself. Woodworking can be peaceful and quiet.
As one who has made a career in education you are probably aware that there are some excellent courses, around the country as well as many local community colleges and clubs, that can guide and assist you as well as sharing time with those who may share your/their enjoyment and enthusiasm....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Ted,
I think it depends upon factors such as mechanical aptitude and knowledge, access to useful items such as motors and friends who can do machining work where required. If you are a highly trained scrounger and able to recognise good stuff when you see it this also helps(;).
As Lee has noted FWW did produce a soft cover book called "FineWoodWorking on Making and Modifying Machines-this has some good projects and at least would serve as inspiration.
The viability of some of these home made machines is affected by ability to source the main components, such as motors, at low cost.If you are able to overhaul simple motors that are not in a fatal condition this is advantageous as motors are often junked for minor reasons.
Again, it is one thing to "make" and another thing to "modify". I have a home made disc sander, but I modified my lathe to get this, so it cost sixpence and did not need a motor or bearings-I merely adapted a face plate and made up a steel table for it-which took up the greater part of sixpence.Ofcourse, you must have a lathe that has an outboard spindle....
If you have a suitable motor and ability or friend who can cut and weld, then a STROKE SANDER is easy to make and mighty useful.
One can also make a thicknessing drum sander very easily, which is capable of sanding veneers accurately-very good for small box makers, and this only requires a small motor -even 1/2 horse will do.
Another candidate is the router table-this does not have to be flash like some of the proprietory ones -it is merely a support for the router with a practical fence system...
There are some items that I would prefer to buy "ready made"-such as jointers and oscillating spindle sanders. But then again, if I had the equipment, I would be dreaming of the ultimate surfacer (or jointer)...
See my stroke sander and disc sander, and bandsaw modified for metal cutting.
Philip Marcou
Edited 11/24/2007 2:34 am by philip
Philip,Thank you for your thoughtful and helpful response to my enquiry about home-made machines. Your answer, and that of several others has more than accented what should have been obvious, but was not so evident to a novice in the genre. As for mechanical aptitude, I believe there is no problem. Being handy with my hands has served me very well, both in my career in science and as a general handy-man (I grew up in that kind of environment), though the knowledge base is, admittedly, pretty thin. Knowing what constitutes "good junk" from what is simply "junk" is not something I would win any prize at! ...thus my reference to garage sales as "garbage sales". Knowledge is everything in this environment. I will pay closer attention to garage sales in the future.I did find the book you mentioned (as did Lee) on eBay, and if the shipping and handling cost is reasonable, will buy it. The fact that it is a bit dated is not of any concern; there is a lot of knowledge and wisdom in so much of the older stuff. We "old geezers" have accumulated much know-how over the years.Sadly, having left the community some 40 years ago to pursue a career in the sciences, and of necessity being forced to spend my career elsewhere, we don't now have the connections to be able to rely on friends etc. for things like simple welding, machining, and so on, so we are kind of on a crash-course in learning the fundamentals as do-it-yourselfers. The basics are not all that difficult, but finding someone to teach them is a bit of a challenge. Trial and error seems to be the way to proceed... simple welding can't be that complicated :) What I have learned already by beginning to make the disc sander is almost priceless. It can be compared to the tuition in a community college; not too expensive, and with the feedback already received, well worth the initial investment. I won't complete the project (at least for now); the lesson was worth far more than the cost of a sheet of MDF!Also, thanks for including the pictures. While I don't immediately recognize everything you have shown, the fire extinguisher was immediately evident in one of them! The very first thing I taught my students in their very first laboratory exercise was safety, and the location of all safety equipment was always drilled into them. I wonder how many even remember....Thanks again for you feedback,Ted
Hi Ted,
I'm going to take a different tack on your question. First and foremost I would give serious consideration to your eyes, lungs and ears. Protect them!
For years I worked with, and still do all manner of power woodworking tools. At some point I developed a constant buzzing in my ears just a few years ago, I'm 61. There are times when it has been difficult to get to sleep never mind hearing well. Ironically I can hear a leaf fall in the woods....................... A simple solution, use hand tools.
Next is dust collection. Working wood with power tools = DUST. By not protecting your lungs you are inviting all that dust into your lungs. There are those who suggest that there are carcinogens in wood, especially products held together with glue. Nuff said?
Again, working wood with tools creates chips with sharp edges. One caught in an eye is not pleasant. Besides, if you can't see you most likely will not be able to enjoy your new found aspiration. Even less fun.
I/we could write volumes about the safety aspect of woodworking and still not cover all the bases so I'm not going to attempt it here. A great deal of it is common sense.
As for making your own tools vs. buying, that is in all likelyhood only a decision you can make. I might suggest that you think about what kind of woodworking you want to do and start with the tools you need. Build your arsenal as you progress has worked the best for me.
Me, I would rather spend my time making things from wood, but that is just my opinion. The one thing you will find very quickly is that the wood has to be square and flat. All manner of tools will get you there. For me the size of the project tells me a lot about what tools I need to get there. I, like you are not in a production environment, so time is not all that critical. At times the wife doesn't agree with that though....... :-)
Anyway, a hearty welcome to the Knots family. I truly hope and wish you success and happiness in your quest to work with wood. Just remember one thing, that damn stuff is gonna move on ya no matter what you do with it!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I am a newb too, but fall into the camp that is going to vote for you to buy the machine. With the Canadian dollar the way it is the price of these machines has fallen to the lowest they have been in years.
I never hesitate to comment on a post that has something to do with Woodsmith or Shopnotes. Having served a short stint as a project designer for the two publications I may offer some insight.
The jigs, tools and machines published in the magazines are well designed and thought out and tested. And the editing and presentation are second to none. Having said that I thought a lot of the things in the publications (particularily Shopnotes) were often superfluous. That is copy used to fill up an issue. I can remember designing some very funky gadgets that in the back of my mind I knew could easily be tackled in a simpler more elegant manner but maybe not with the same "wow factor" that helps sells magazines (which is what keeps magazine businesses in business). Overall I thik you'll find these how-to magazines very beneificial to your development in woodworking and they are a great resource of information and tips even for more advanced woodworkers.
You could probably purchase a sander of similar size for less $$. But you probably won't be able to buy one that is as well made or vibration free as the one in Shopnotes. MDF is a heavy material and doesn't transmit vibration the way sheet metal does. Get a good quality motor and you'll have a tool that'll last a couple of lifetimes. I think the same can be said of the 6" x 89" belt sander done ten years ago. It too is a very solid performer and has the quality and robustness of machines costing twice as much. As others have mentioned building projects from plans is an excellent way to hone skills. You don't have to spend time designing or resolving issues and are able to focus on simply building.
O-B
Have you considered satisfying your urge by finding and renovating old wwing machinery? there are tons of old equipment out there in estate sales, garage sales, etc., that you can buy cheap and tinker endlessly getting them to work and look presentable. There was a recent thread here from ForestGirl on the table saw she renovated, for example.
Welcome to the joy of wood! Yes, sometimes by the time you buy all the pieces and put the labor in yourself(yes your time is worth something), you probably could buy a comercial product, but you said you liked to work with your hands! I was a wood worker for a long time and then stopped (still don't know why) for years. To get back in the swing of things, I needed a router table, so I decided that to get the juices flowing again, I would build one instead of buying. It was a great experience and I'm glad I did it. It rekindled the joy, and got my head in the right mode of thinking again. I got Norm Abrams plans and modified them a bit, and did it. In the end, the cost was on par with a comercial table, but I think mine is better and I did it myself. I will say in most cases you won't save a ton of money, but if want the experience go for it!
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
many machines can be made that are equal or better than the average manufactured tool. I have made a wood lathe that will turn up to 4'-0" between centers and 18" diameters. Total cost was about $200.00. Headstock and tailstock spindles were bought as replacement parts from Grizzly.
I made a drum sander for about 50.00, had everything but pillow block bearings and a shaft. The shaft is 3/4" cold rolled steel with 3" mdf circles glued up on the shaft and trued later on the machine itself.
Router table,both horizontal and vertical. Panelsaw that uses Stanley sliding door hardware for the slides,this took 3 days to figure out and build. I saved at least 8 days of labor on the first job it was used.Since I do not use it often I made it knock down, stored in the loft now.A number of other things that are not machinery but would be useful jigs. Probably the most used is a homemade version of the Plano press.No more than $35.00 in the press,mostly for 3/8" tee nuts and bolts.
Get a copy of Making and Modifying Machines, a Taunton Publication I believe.Good book for ideas and drawings.
mike
Good Morning "OLD BALDY" from another wise and grey haired Albertan! I am a confirmed wood butcher who loves tools, buying wood and attempting to build beautiful things with my limited skills and shop. The whole woodworking process is the best thing in my life - next of course to my lovely wife!
My son is a painter and my son-in-law is a journeyman plumber here in Calgary and they make less than $50 per hour - so I can assume you live in Edmonton! :)
Our stories are similar in that I have been setting up my shop in anticipation of retirement several years down the road. I needed a hobby that could challenge my desire to work with my hands and be an outlet for my creativity. My wife, an nuclear engineer, just laughs and says I spend more time thinking it through that doing! She is right, but its fun anyway. Asking questions is an important part of the the journey if you are hoping to get it right the first time. Other people have made some mistakes I and decided to benefit from their experience.
IN THE BEGINNING:When I first began the process of designing the shop I took the scatter brain approach and bought machines and and tools on eBay, from Craigslist and the local buy and sell in Calgary. I amassed a small warehouse of "junk" to fit into my small 22' X 21' double attached garage. One day I woke up had a BIG GARAGE sale and sold most of my precious junk and then seriously began the process of designing a shop to spend some enjoyable time in.
LEARN: I budget time and money for two woodworking courses per year - education is paramount to improving your skills and pushing your limitations the mind sometimes imposes on us. Being able to say to one's self, "I have never built that before, but it appears to be a combination of A + B + C skill set, and I got two of the three so sure lets try it". Mistakes are life's best teachers provided its only the wood that suffers and not safety or my body! Also important is joining a local woodworking group of other inspired (usually grey haired old farts like me) folks who meet monthly and have educational sessions where you can learn new skills and exchange ideas.
PLAN THE WORK AND WORK THE PLAN: First mistake was not planning what I "needed" to do the type of woodworking I wanted to pursue, which is hardwood furniture building. Second mistake was not laying out the space efficiently within my garage to house the tools I was going to buy. Last mistake was not having a long range plan that tied tool acquisition to future projects - again logic says why buy it if I don't need it today. I do not have a disk sander, and really don't see buying or making one in the next 5 years either. When I need a tool I research it and buy the best I can afford within my budget!
BUDGET: I suggest that you decide how big, translated to mean expensive, your slippery slope into woodworking is going to be! You can spend $500 or $50,000 to outfit your shop! If you don't control your urges towards buying tools and ...., then the day will come when you add up the money invested and realize that this is getting to be more than a small hobby! I can justify every tool purchase I ever made but my wife is intelligent enough to call bullsh*t when I get out of control!
BUILDING SHOP TOOLS AND ACCESORIES: I tried to buy old tools and "fix" them up but I soon realized the joy for me was building furniture, not removing rust from old iron. So I built those shop accesories that made woodworking safer and easier like a cross-cut sled for the table saw, a mitre saw bench, and most importantly a real workbench! So there are lots of items to "build" in the process of starting an enjoyable woodworking. The best place to practice your new required skills is to build your own cabinets first in the shop! Mistakes are inevitable and why not make them in the shop versus the new pantry which your wife will see every day for the rest of your lives? :)
THE MOST OVERLOOKED ITEM: They call it woodworking for a reason - you work with wood; hence, it is the raw resource from which everything grows. I have now budgeted money every year to stock pile some nice and varied woods into my shop. Rather than buying wood "just in time" at the local $$$ wood supplier, I search out avenues to acquire some nice wood like cherry, maple and walnut when the price is right and there is surplus money in the budget. Having wood on hand makes a project seem easier to start, and having extra wood available makes those nasty little screw ups seem less troublesome!
Just like applying for grants in the world of academia, the process begins on paper. If you need some advice, or want to bounce off your next idea, find another woodworker who understands what the hell you are talking about.
Good luck old Baldy and get in touch if you have some free time! :)
Bob in Calgary
Don't know if it'll help, but google up Princess Auto. I think they have two or three stores in Alberia and they may have better prices than your local Home Hardware...
You being a retired Bio/prof in Alberta, I can't resist replying. If you decide to make your own machines think hard about how long you may be enjoying your woodworking. I drove by a wood shop in Naramata, BC and stopped to chat. Great fellow with a shop full of machinery and projects on the go. After a bit he said he had to sit down because of congestive heart disease. He said: "You know, I didn't start woodowkring until I retired as a Physics Prof from UofA but I'm 93 so I've got nearly 30 years experience now". Enjoy your shop!
Good evening everyone,First, many thanks for the overwhelming positive responses from so many of you! There are so many that I will not try to answer each post individually :)I feel much more positive about my project today than I did yesterday. More in a minute...Philip, last night when I responded to your post, it was well past my bedtime and I'm sorry I forgot to address the main point of your pictures. Yes, I did get it - the point was to illustrate how how one machine could be put to dual (or more) uses if one used a bit of imagination. So thanks again for sharing this insight with me (and others who read in this forum).Bob, your advice on safety relative to one's health is extremely important for all to keep in mind. As a (retired) biologist, I understand and appreciate only too well the need to protect our "insides" as well as our extremities. Thanks for taking the time to re-iterate this valuable advice. Of course, my interest is more in making things, rather than tinkering to make things work... Ted, I didn't mean to imply that Shopnotes did not publish good plans. My disappointment was more to the effect that the (apparent) cost of the "extras" seemed to be rather exhorbitant. With the help and kind advice of many of you, I have since managed to reduce the sticker cost by more than 75%, and the project is now a "go"! For what it is worth there are several other projects which I will attempt in the near future. As for finding and "fixing" older machinery, for me that is not really something I want to spend a lot of time with. Tinkering is something of a nuisance when what I want to do is to use the equipment. Of course, I will spend whatever time is necessary to "fix" something I already have, but buying "fixer-uppers" is not very high on my list of priorities. If necessary, OK, but otherwise, ..... unless I come across something that doesn't look like it needs much to get it up to parr quickly.Mike (and others), I found a copy of the book "Making and Modifying Machines" on eBay and have ordered it. Since it comes so highly recommended, I really look forward to discovering what is between its covers.Bob (in Calgary) - thanks for the encouraging advice. You're close, but I'm not in Edmonton, rather a couple of hours northeast of there (St. Paul), and rural at that. And yes, I was recently charged $100/hr by a gasfitter to hook up a furnace in my new shop (and he was generous - to himself - in deciding how many hours to charge for :( I have heard other stories about drywallers refusing work if they can't get similar rates... I won't comment on the required skill-set for taping.... (I've taught myself to do it, and it's not exactly rocket science).Thanks "Jeema" for the heads-up on Princess Auto. I should have known to check there, but I guess I was suffering from a bad case of "tunnel vision" and it didn't even occur to look into them. Thanks to your advice, I have now found almost everything I need at less than a quarter of the local prices. The motor was found locally, used, at a price I can live with (free!). Wow, wou could ask for anything more!Now, Stanley2, if there is another 30 years left in this beat-up old body, I would indeed be truly blessed!So, thank you to everyone who took the time to welcome me so warmly into your community. Be warned though, that I may have more questions down the road sometime :)Kindest regardsTed (aka Old-Baldy)
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