For a number of years I have listened to and watched the “purist and craftsman” bicker about how to build furniture… I would like to ask a couple of questions with an honest intent to find civil answers.
Why, if someone is making a piece of furniture to sell either as a commission or just to sell, is it necessary to use i.e. tendon joints for table legs, or figure 8 fixtures to attach a table top, or any other traditional methods when so many easier, faster, and cheaper ways can be found? If you are in the business to make money, are not into high end furniture, your name is not Norm or David, why do you spend so much time on a piece that eats into your bottom line?
A table is a prime example. Why join the legs and skirts with tendons? They are glued in, makes the table difficult to move as legs can not be removed, top put on with time consuming, traditional methods when gluing a 3/4 X 3/4 strip around top of skirts, boring oversized holes into those strips and screwing the top down can save hours of work.
I have been making furniture for years… and unless another “woodworker” looks at my work, questions why I do it the way I do…the customer generally never knows the difference.. I make quite a good living, am so far behind I find I am forced to close my doors in the evening and do not open them on the weekend just that I may have time for myself. No, I would not consider my work “highend” but it will outlast my customers and their children… In fact I advertise my tables as “Baptist Tables” Why? Because I tell them, they can either dance on it or kill a hog on it… they are that sturdy!
So again, Why do you chose to use the difficult and time consuming ways when something so much easier and just as good is there… Choice or you do not know another way?
I know I will have to restate some of my questions to a few and will have to ask additional that some may understand what I am trying to say, but for those that understand now……they are just questions of curiosity.
Replies
I don't make anything to sell, so my answer is what it is. But as far as I am concerned, if I am buying a handmade piece then I want it to be built w/ craftsmanship. If I can buy the same product factory made that is solid wood but not built w/ traditional joinery then why spend the extra for a small shop to make it?
Secondly, I would argue it is difficult to use nails, screws, knock-down style bolts, etc to replicate traditional, structural joinery (such as a mortise and tenon). By the way, please note spelling, not to be an a$$, but it is not tendon.
Thirdly, traditional methods when mastered (and no, I have not mastered them) are no more time consuming than using hardware and ostensibly will yield a higher price since they often times are aesthetic elements as well.
That is my $.02
I have never used “tendons” myself, do you get those when you butcher on the table? Are hog tendons better than those from cattle? I might replace tenons with them if they work so much better.
Seriously, fine means fine, not a Wal-Mart Asian special. I can build a M & T joint as fast as using some knock down fastener anyway.
Hello. I hope and believe that most people try and produce work that is fit for its purpose. This can be a table with bolt on legs or morticed and tenoned legs, if you make on spec and the customer can look at your items prior to purchase what they see is what they are happy to get. If you make to order then items, including style ,timbers, construction and finish will have been agreed.I would not want to order a piece of furniture paying for mortice and tenon joints and get bolted (and I don,t have a problem with either of them ). Out of sight is not out of mind ,you will always know ! and in future years your customer may find out. Its a bit like cars, most have four wheels and an engine but they don,t all last the same or cost the same and if you found the garage had changed the manufactures badge on your car just to increase its value ,would you be happy?
Intended as a civil and honest answer . all the very best Teabag
Hi Vietvet67 ,
The " purist and the craftsman " debate .
It's kind of like the flyfishers and the bait fishers here locally .
To address your questions , part of the beauty of our craft is there are many ways of doing the same thing . M & T joints are like dovetails in the sense that they seem to be a significant factor in marketing strategy or like a catch phrase , to help sell quality built items .
I am also a wood butcher for a living , and unlike many Drs. I work for I am no longer practicing ,(they hate when I say that) we need to make a living while putting out quality products .
Not all your's or my works are considered high end gallery quality pieces granted , the methods we use are applicable for the level we work at , imo . Does that make us less a mechanic ? not really , especially if we can do the M&T and such if we wanted to or if the piece called for it .
Why cut dovetails by hand when a router can do it ? There is probably lots of reasons people spend the large amounts of time to meticulously craft their works of art . Maybe just because they can !
regards dusty
That is my point, I at one time spent time on making dovetails, by hand, found the new bits available on shapers eliminates quite a bit of time making those same drawers. The drawers just as sturdy and will last as long as a dovetail. No they do not look as well but if you show your customer how they are put together before they can comment on "no dovetails" they understand quality regardless of type of constuction.
In response to the Wal-mart furniture...again my point... go to Lowe's, Home depot or even Ethan Allen....a lot of MDF....a lot of paper covered MDF and High prices... I am able to build and modify to meet a customers needs and at a price less than those stores...Granted I am able to make more money if I make more than on item, but my profit margin is still substantial.
I know it is tenon....when your hyper, your fingers go a lot slower than you are able to think...like those that do not know if they have a jointer or joiner....guess if you need a reason to pick you can find one....I have been through the VA's anger classes 5 times, the have pronounced me cured, my wife says they lie....but I can still smile.
Who says "knock Down" furniture is Asian quality? Have seen many pieces US made of the 30's era that is knock down and people today pay a lot of money for a piece of that era in good shape..
I am not 'knocking' either way of construction...I am but asking why if your goal is "income". If as a hobby or for yourself, by all means build as you want...
In response to the Wal-mart furniture...again my point... go to Lowe's, Home depot or even Ethan Allen....a lot of MDF....a lot of paper covered MDF and High prices... I am able to build and modify to meet a customers needs and at a price less than those stores.
I would be truly interested to know how you can do that. You would be the first woodworker on this site that can claim that honor. Do you have some photos of your furniture that you can post?
After many years of working for myself as well as having worked for many companies that build cabinetry, exhibits and millwork, I feel very strongly that one has to take the "religion" out of the discussion. We are in a customer service business. Give the customer what he requires. One customer might feel that joinery is what they are buying, but another might just need a piece that is purely functional and less expensive. Not every piece is meant to be an heirloom.
I think it is important to talk to the customer and understand what their expectations are, and let him know that you will be giving them what they expect to get. My customers always come away knowing more about woodworking than when we started, and feeling good about getting something custom made. The fulfilling of expectations is what matters, not whether the rails are mortise and tenon or knock-down.
Hi Bob ,
Very well said . I try and educate my customers and give them information to help them feel confident that they will get what they expect and want .
Communication is an important element for successful transactions . I spend as much time as it takes before I begin the job to make sure all parties are on the same page .
Imo one of the most important parts of communicating is listening to our clients needs , desires and expectations .
an old Doctor training young ones once said (" if you listen to your patients they will tell you what is wrong " ) too bad more Doctors don't do this .
regards dusty
Bob,
You put my own feelings into a clear message. Thanks for that.
This thread has been a good one. It's shown especially how we all have legitimate but different aims in woodworking. It's great to hear lots of viewpoints but in the end we each take what we need.
DR
I believe the answer lies in personal choice. Do you want to make furniture to be as good as it can be, or do you just want to get by "cheaply" to make a buck, and move on. I call it the "Baskin Robins" theory. If your goal is to make as much money as you possibly can, without regard for the high end of quality, forge ahead. From my experiences in life, (and certainly not just related to woodworking) if you consistantly strive to do the best, highest quality work that you can, in the long run, your business, your bank account, and your mental well being with reap the benefits.
I've seen perfect examples in business of companies (or individuals) getting "hot", where everything is going great. Take for instance, a local road construction contractor in the Chicago area. Those of you from around here might remember those "orange" trucks. Years and years of city and government contracts. Years and years of skimping on the materials. Then one day, a bridge over a major highway collapses. Next thing you know, an investigation. Next thing you know, the million dollar houses and Ferrari's are all gone, and the next 10 family Christmas's are spent at the handle bar hotel. (Uh, that's prison!)
Now that example is true, albeit a bit extreme. I'm certainly not suggesting that we'll end up in prison for shoddy work. But, where in your life do you draw the line.
I have been successful doing things the best I can, and sometimes missing out on a commission or 2, but in the long run, I have benefited from this philosophy greatly.
Jeff
Jeff- did the orange trucks have a four leter name that starts with M and end with two N's, based in Elkhorn, WI?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
<<Why, if someone is making a piece of furniture to sell either as a commission or just to sell, is it necessary to use i.e. tendon joints for table legs, or figure 8 fixtures to attach a table top, or any other traditional methods when so many easier, faster, and cheaper ways can be found? >>
Because this website is called "Fine Woodworking" and not "Make Extra Money Assembling Furniture"
[Avoid schadenfreude]
Edited 2/9/2006 6:16 pm by Trappist
Using your phrase "Fine Woodworking" I am to understand then you did not read the Fine Woodworking Issue in which your Mag showed just how to attach a table top as I have indicated could be done....Was your answer a vocal when you (I hope threw the mag in the trash) when you then "hollered this is not fine woodworking"!
Hello Vietvet67,
What did you expect? When you gore somebody's ox, they're going to react!
To some fine woodworkers, the main distinguishing criterion is fancy joinery, specifically dovetails. No amount of logic, argument, or other persuasion is likely to change their opinion.
Actually, it all boils down to selecting the objective for a piece of furniture. For some people, mimicking the old masters is their objective. For others people, it is okay to use modern technology (e.g. power tools, ball-bearing drawer slides, etc.) if they make the piece better (e.g. stronger, smoother operation, greater precision, less splitting, etc.).
Gasp! Some people make drawers and case goods out of PLYWOOD! What an outrage, just because it is dimensionally stable and won't pull itself apart after a generation of seasonal humidity fluctuations. And some others use modern adhesives that don't crystallize and fall apart after a few generations. Horrors!
Where will it all end? Sleep well tonight, if you are true to your craft, then that is all that matters.
I was maybe hoping beyond hope for a few honest answers. Let me throw this out then. In issue 163 of FW (6 ways to attach a table top) one of the methods I mentioned was described. In fact it stated that it was one of the oldest methods used. I made a change, using the previously mentioned method of gluing 3/4 X 3/4 strips to the skirts and drilling though them instead of making pocket holes in the skirt, which I have done for a very long time. I found the strips gave me a bit more support to the top and was just as secure. By making the holes twice the size of the screw it allows for some expansion.
Another interesting issue in which the purist went crazy was issue 166. The author was showing another way I have been using for as long as he has I am sure, of using bar clamps and c-clamps to glue up an entire top in one swoop. From the outcry you would think the man had committed a grave crime. His answer was classic, " if you have the time and the desire to do it differently do it, I am making a living" Does he (Gary Rogowski not make Fine Furniture because he has time constraints?
What about all the FW's issues that show the use of Plywood sides and tops? I have not used plywood in years for anything. My constructions is generally frame and panel or solid wood glue ups.
After reading the next issue 167, I stopped my FW subscription (my first issue was 41, 1983, as I was beginning to or finally noticed the Mag had changed to look like Woodworkers Journal, American Woodworker, Poplar Woodworking... Just hints, jigs, tips, tool reviews and nothing I had not done in years. That is not to say I don't look at each issue on the rack when they are out just to see if I can learn something else.
As a note, I made my first pencil post bed from the plans of that issue, I still make pencil post beds today but purchase my pencil post pre-made. They are straighter, of better looking SOLID WOOD without glues up and I save a lot of time.
All this boils down to I MAKE FINE FURNITURE, I modify my construction habits based on trial and error to either make an improvement or as a time saving device. I made and make furniture for a living. Had the car not evolved, we would still be driving model A's and T's.
Why can we not make changes and still make fine furniture? There are era's in furniture making and I suppose all those that came before think the new stuff is junk...what will your kids think of the crafty first piece you made years ago and thought and maybe still think it was a prize winner?
It is you who must decide what you wish to do. You needn't have your choices blessed. Either have the self-confidence not to be dismayed if others have a definition of "fine woodworking" that excludes your products, or adopt their standards.
Of course, if you accede to everyone's demands, you will have very little room to innovate or express yourself. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
This should be a fun discussion. John, would you list the modern adhesives that don't crystallize and fall apart after a few generations? I can't actually think of any modern adhesives that have been around for a few generations.Hide glue has been around for thousands of years, some still reasonably intact. No other glue has a proven track record that nears that.It's fine to use other glues but it's a mistake to bash the qualities of a glue that's still holding a Pharaoh's woodwork together, especially when none of the modern glues are even a hundred years out of the bottle.Lee
Edited 2/9/2006 8:28 pm ET by LeeGrindinger
Hello LeeGrindinger,
You are quite right to challenge me on a sweeping statement about the longevity of glues.
Elmer's glue (PVA) was invented in the 1950s and so is over two generations old. I have four pieces of every-day use furniture joined with Elmer's glue that are still as strong as the day they were made back in the 1950s by my father-in-law, a master craftsman. http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/A_brief_history_of_wood_glues.html
http://www.elmers.com/products/about/index.asp
From my own memory, epoxy adhesives date from the 1960s and yellow glue from the 1970s. So they are not yet more than one generation old.
I have owned about fifty pieces of antique furniture from the mid-1800s and have examined more than ten times as many in purchasing the best. Based on this limited sample, it is my experience that it is rare to find a piece of furniture from this era in which the hide glue has not failed somewhere. The most likely spot is a dovetail joint, but also veneer where the edge is free.
Pharaoh's furniture with hide glue has survived, but it was in a controlled environment for almost all that time.
It will be interesting to see if PVA does as well after the same road test. For what it's worth, I doubt it. Plastics like PVA tend toward brittleness after a relatively short time compared to the proteins.We'll see. For the furniture I build I opt for the stuff with a track record and reparability.Ever tried repairing a PVA failure?Lee
For my work, making period reproductions, traditional methods are necessary, as the customers who will pluck down the money for them are savy enough to know, good from bad. Also, period craftsman, worked under tremendous pressure, so their techniques are pretty efficient, and that so many remain today, is a testament to their abilities.
Rob Millard
Vet, I'll assume the point of this thread is to be told that you build "fine furniture", or at the very least that what you're doing is okay.
Well, why not post some pictures of your work with construction notes and let those interested decide?
Lee
Lee, that was not the purpose of this thread. It was to ask why so may who give advice here assume, believe, or what other the reason, think dovetails, mortise and tenon joints, or other bygone era techniques are the ONLY way to build finefurniture.
I never anywhere belittled anyone for building the way they wish...from strictly a business perspective, I asked why one would use so much more time making a piece not considered "High End" when newer, faster, and just as solid methods can be used.
If you are in the business of making those pieces that demand 5 figure prices, take hundreds of hours to make and only need make 4 or 5 pieces a year I understand that. But to read here someone buying a powermatic 66 for use in his basement as a hobby then complain about the price of lumber, or have someone ask for a simple or different way to do something and find both camps decrying the others methods only to totally confuse the new guy is a disservice to him... as we all do... with age and experience we find ourselves.....
Yes I have posted a couple stinging comments to a couple of those individuals, not out of hate, but that the waters had been so muddied with all the "only way to, only buy this, no that is wrong, and the poor individual has more questions than when he ask his initial question.
Maybe I should have ask in my first post or allude to those for ideas insomuch as profession for income versa building for purism.
You wrote: "... that was not the purpose of this thread. It was to ask why so may who give advice here assume, believe, or what other the reason, think dovetails, mortise and tenon joints, or other bygone era techniques are the ONLY way to build finefurniture."Well I, for one, cannot answer that question because I firmly believe that using so called bygone era techniques is not the only path to fine work. I have been in the fine furniture business since 1980, working by and for myself all that time. For a good many of those years I chose to forgo dovetails, etc. for my own contemporary style and methods. It has been only recently that I am drawn again to the craft of finely sawn joints for some of my work. My furniture incorporates a wide variety of materials. I like to make things that are reflective of our contemporary lives. I use steel, concrete, stone, and wood. I have been known to attach steel to wood by driving a nail into the wood through a hole drilled in the steel then welding both together. Believe me, the heat developed does not do the wood or any nearby glue any good. But it makes a statement. (And, it's a rather strong connection.) Do I think this if fine woodworking? Maybe it's not, but it is fine furniture making. I get top dollar for my work, and I'm as busy as I can possibly be. So others must think so too. You started this discussion with the desire to avoid any acrimony. I certainly don't wish to upset you, but I get the sense that you are being a bit combative. Why do you care how others define "fine woodwork?" I don't care and I've never cared how others might define my work. But I see how one can make a compelling connection between a finely cut dovetail and fine woodwork. The craft, the care, the desire, and most of all, the intention makes it so. If your work shows all those things, then you too make fine furniture. But, if your work shows a bit of corner cutting, or sloppiness, then you're just making things. The bottom line is....you gotta decide.Best wishes to you.
Boy you sure stirred up a can of nitro!
Ok, fine furniture.....I like to think I build some pretty good stuff. And no, I don't use (routinely) all the 'classic' joinery methods. Now, if someone really is ardent about that type of detail, it's probably for a period piece, and to tell the truth, I try to stray away from those. But if I did, I'm not sure I would really use a lot of the techniques you talk about (like dovetails, etc.)
The only time I concentrate on such joinery is if it shows in the finished product, and is visually appealing! As such, I tend toward more mid-20th century designs or purely modern, clean lines, or asian influenced. It's a lot more attractive, functional, and just plain fun t work on.
Yeah, I can make dovetails. Yeah, I can make close fitting mortise and tenon joinery, and yeah I can dowel.....but I'd rather use bisuits, bolts, glue, and good design myself.
I know I'll get hammered here, but what the *&LL, my customers are happy, the furniture I've built is as tough as it gets, and I'm enjoying creating something people seem to like.
Lighten up guys.....we all have our picadillos.....and our preferences.
I'm an amateur, but I have looked at woodworking as a business through eyes of an economist and securities analyst. Making things "cheaper" (in the pejorative sense) only works if you sell to Wal-Mart--and can ramp up to Wal-Mart volumes with only tiny amounts of debt. (If you need debt to expand you only continue over time selling to Wal-Mart after Chapter 11 has converted the debt into ownership.)
But a small shop just cannot compete against offshore factory furniture in terms of cost of production. Not even close. Can't even beat N. Carolina factories. Some operations (Ikea comes to mind) can sell furniture at retail for prices less than the cost of the wood alone for anyone buying less than a thousand board feet at a time.
So if you try to sell the equivalents of factory furniture at the same or lower prices, you are doomed to poverty. Work your tail off to make $35,000 a year if that and without health insurance.
The only way to success as a small shop is to make things that are not made in factories, that are better designed and constructed. Better design may just be made to fit a specific place, but it is something that can't be done as well in the factory. A spouse with benefits is a help.
You need to be able to sell a small table for $3,500, not $400 if you want to make significant money. This requires both high quality construction and strong marketing based on that quality and design. Design may also be solid research concerning reproductions. All of this must be well marketed. It has to be special to sell at high prices. Wealthy customers are tough consumers.
Secondly, for those who do it constantly, mortice and tenon joints and hand cut dovetails take little more time than the Kreg joints that are doomed to fail or the time to set up Leigh jigs when each drawer is different. Fine furniture should be expected to last a century, and be able to be repaired if need be. Metal fasteners make that highly improbable. Save them for kitchen cabinets where 25 years is a lifetime.
Steve, I did not say making them cheaper to mean cheaper.... I spoke of using less time to increase profits... just as you mentioned, dovetails, kreig jigs and all the other time consuming and not necessarily stronger joints.
Let us not confuse cheaper with less time....if you are able to build a piece of usable, attractive, solidly constructed, solid wood, good and durable finish, with the ability to stand the test of time and kids.....and you are in business as a family supporting furniture maker, why would you continue to use your time ineffectively? Again, if it is something you want to do, great, if you have not thought about using different methods and should consider them as a job saver, why haven't you?
I guess I have opened the door wider than even I thought I would...
"I was maybe hoping beyond hope for a few honest answers. "
No, I don't think you were. You received quite a few and you keep taking this beligerent know-it all, "you guys are stupid for doing things the hard way" tone. It is obvious you aren't looking for "honest answers" but rather someone to validate your manner of work.
You say you make "fine furniture" in the same sentence that you say you puy your pencil posts pre-made because it is easier and they come out better than if you did it. Why not build kit furniture and sell it as fine furniture?
Either acknowledge people's reasoning and move on or stop trolling w/ your responses. If you are happy w/ your work so be it.
I think this complete discussion hinges on What is considered "Fine Furniture" to some poor soul a stool that doesn't rock might be and others a finely crafted chair with hand carving and exquisitly finished. Everything is relative. If your looking for acceptance as a Fine Furnituremaker, there's a wide expanse between making Furniture and making Fine Furniture. And there's nothing wrong with either, both are needed and generally accepted for what they are.Furniture...the Art of a FurnitureMaker
I think this complete discussion hinges on What is considered "Fine Furniture"...
I can not tell you what fine furniture is, but I know it when I see it!
I can not tell you what fine furniture is, but I know it when I see it!
Not me! I just bought what my 'lady' liked!'
We got along then!
Quality in furniture is practically defined by good joinery.
But the problem facing anyone seeking to make a living is finding the "space" in the market where competition is least strong. And the only niche I see that offers genuine opportunity is at the high end--selling furniture to rich people (or at least to people who are very particular about the things they gather around them.) How these customers are defined varies across the country. A rich person in north central Missouri (where my ancestors hale from), is not the same sort as those in Fairfield County Connecticut where I now live.
That high end market is in two parts--the gallery artists who push the envelope with design and/or who offer quality of construction or finishes that factories can't achieve. The other part of that niche is the market for quality reproductions--reproductions that fit into rooms with genuine antiques without calling attention to themselves except for "condition". (I suspect there is a third niche--not to be talked about--of those who manufacture "genuine antiques.") Only in the underground niche does it pay to use strictly the old tools and methods.
Custom built in's (including kitchens) are perhaps another niche where factories face handicaps that allow some prosperity for small shops. Factories are best at large numbers of the same exact thing.
Frankly I believe that furniture not based of good joinery--for example, M&T where appropriate, dovetails (even by machine or by hand for esthetics) is an inferior product, bound to fail before its time. Factories do this extremely well and more efficiently than any one or three person shop can ever hope to achieve however hard or however many shortcuts are taken. To steal market from the factories you have to exploit yourself by accepting less profit.
But don't be confused. Effeciency is very important, speed is a major part of that. Lots of times however, achieving that efficiency takes stepping back and developing certain skills and practicing certain methods, learnig what is necessary to move to the high-end niche. This is a hard, expensive thing to do.
We think of the 18th century cabinetmakers as puttering around at a gentle pace. But a Newport journeyman cabinetmaker might complete a "high case of drawers" (highboy) in just two weeks. Without a thickness planer. Or a mahogany slant front desk in the same time, including the interior drawers. No puttering there, although it should be remembered that the work day was 11 hours and the work week 6 days. Good joinery isn't inherently slow and inefficient.
I was ww'g full time after I got laid off from my "normal" job. After a years or so time of going at it full bore I found I just could not make ends meet for my family. I am now back at it part time. During that years time I looked into many techniques to speed up my production and invested in some machines but I was always at war with myself over changing what I new worked for a speedier process. I think part of my problems with changing over to some of these newer ideas was that I began ww'g as a hobbiest where I had all the time in the world. I prided myself in those special joints or how well a piece fit together. Some people enter into the business as a business approach, whether it be making ktichen cabinets or A/V centers or whatever. I think it amounts to producing a product and not a piece of one's self. I think in order to make the switch over to some newer methods of construction requires one to make a big mental leap. I am sure some people that have, still feel they are producing a fine product. Lets face it, we all want to be the guy that has a 2 year wait list where we can charge whatever we want and take as long as we want but that just is not the case. Woodworking in its pure traditional ways is a form of art and not many people want to pay for it. I have begun to realize for myself, that I will most likely never make a full time living at it so i wil only be able to do those special pieces for the more discriminating clients. Thus i will need to show something for it. I choose to stay with some of the more traditional ways.
Hello
I'm a Vet before the Tet, and I don't have "anger issues", so stop saying it.
Most who follow my posts know that I poke fun at almost everything. I'll be serious here because my answer to your question is the reason I lurk around here in the late night when I should be sleeping.
When I was about 14, my Grand-father showed me a chest of drawers my Great-Great Grand Father had made without benifit of glue or nails. I didn't believe him and then he took half of it apart before my eyes and challenged me to put it back together. He watched me stumble through it, but after a couple of hours and much frustration, he showed me the tricks that held it together.
At the time, they were only tricks. Much to his disappointment, I found electronics more interesting at that time. I lost the chest forever. It burned in a fire in up-state New York about 15 years ago. That bothered me then and even more now. After 40 years, I can only attempt to duplicate what my far removed ancestor did for a living. I recognize a master's work when I see it. Van Gogh, Rembrandt. You recognize it when you see it with no mistake.
That is not the answer you want. Here is the answer: I know that even if I had spent those 40 years working diligently every day to acquire the skill and techniques necessary to make that chest of drawers, I could never come close to the level of mastery that was common in his everyday routine. The chest of drawers was not given away because the person it was intended for failed to pay for the work done. So, it was put to common everyday use.
The most I can hope for is to gain what little pleasure I can from the discoveries and hints I get from day-to-day ventures into fine woodworking. How about you?
William
Exactly what I was seeking an Honest answer...there is a difference even in my techniques....Most of the furniture in my home is of my making.....yes I even found a bed in an old issue of Woodsmith I found interesting and tried it....of course prior to construction I saw a few items I thought would improve it, but to get back to your answer, there are times I do for me....not that I have to or even want to but to retain that which I have used in the past and want not to lose forever....
How is it put, "use it or lose it" that I can, does not mean I have to.
there are so many different ways to construct anything...our way (American/new world) compared to European.. talk about a difference..
William, how can a suferdude be a vet before tet? you guys weren't called suferdudes back then were you? I don't think I have anger issues, everyone else does...me, I call them differences of opinions.
Thanks for you answer..
What the heck is defined as "fine woodworking" anyway. Ask 100 people, get 100 answers. You have to adjust your methods to suit your customers' demands as well as your bottom line.
I'd be willing to bet that if current technology were available to makers of old, they would have all used it.
To each his own......
-Paul
Viet,
Interesting topic, for sure.
I once had a buddy who, like me, built reproduction furniture. On a visit to his shop one day, I saw him screwing a piece of 1/4" plywood on the back of 4 drawer Chippendale chest. Ogee feet, quarter columns, walnut primary wood. I started giving him a ration about using plywood instead of solid wood for the back. He says, "that's not all, I used ply for the drawer bottoms too!" On being asked how he could justify using modern material in a traditional piece, he replied, "Two words- dimensional stability" "Besides," he says, "I'm using BRASS screws to put this back on."
In his opinion, he was improving on the old design. In my opinion, it wasn't a "real" reproduction (whatever that is).
I find it interesting that you have no problem using hardware instead of traditional joinery as a time saver, but continue using frame and panel construction in lieu of plywood. Maybe using teenuts instead of mortise and tenon on the frames makes them cheaper to build than using a piece of 3/4" veneered ply?
A fellow I used to work for asked me once to invest with him in a business opportunity. When I refused his offer, he asked me, "What's wrong, don't you want to make some money?" I told him I was more interested in making furniture. That I'm afraid is still more true than not. If he wants to make money, a woodworker would be better off going into another line of work, like dentistry.
Everyone has to make his own mind up about what he will compromise in the way of craftsmanship, in the name of making a living. Otherwise, we'd all be like the polisher at the brass foundry. He was working at polishing a huge brass set of gates for a mansion, when a visitor to the shop asked him how long it would be til he got done. "I don't ever get done," he replied. "They just come and take them away from me."
Cheers,
Ray Pine
William, how can a suferdude be a vet before tet? you guys weren't called suferdudes back then were you?
River-rat whose last "All-fxxxxxg-day-long" was Nov 1. I believe that was only a few days before the tet. We used to ride the waves (surf) into the riverhead late at night to muffle the sound of the engines.
...there is a difference even in my techniques....
What do you think about bamboo and have you tried any FWW with that? I don't mean wicker, either. I once saw a dude's livingroom done in bamboo. He had pains-takenly (over 3 years) cut each cane in half, nailed one-half face-in and when the room was covered showing the inside of all the canes, he "counter-sunk" nailed the other halfs face-out. He had patched each 'counter-sink' and varnished the whole thing and when he showed his "truely a masterpiece" off to me, I wanted to deflate his swelling, smug, ego a little. Well, OK, a whole bunch. (Hey, its a tough job being a cynic but somebody has to do it.) I told him that because he put a few canes "up-side down", it diminished from the beauty, mastery, and gestault as a whole. I didn't know what that meant, but it was the best I could do on such short notice. Secretly, I envied his skill, but didn't tell him that for fear that this would only encourage him in other endevors in his life. Ever notice how short people get cocky and have anger issues (er, OK, diffences of opinions)?
A master of his craft does not 'putter' around in his shop. Art is never 'done', only put aside, waiting, while other more-meaningful expressions get placed on the 'front burner', so to speak. He leaves the 'puttering' to the rest of us. I don't mind puttering, mixing M&T, pocket-holes, box-joints, biscut-joints and what-nots on the SAME leg of a table. That's why I have a dust-collection device.
I have stopped gourmet cooking because I don't like to wash all the pots and pans. I won a few blue-ribbons and the respect and admiration of the people I love and intended to win over. I never aspired to showing off to other chef's and cooks. I got lucky. Every one of the judges was hungry when I won the ribbons. M&T, T&G, or angle-iron; it's subjective, a matter of taste, and what you're hungry for, and what available and paletable.
Ever since I grew up to become a 'real' man, I've found that I'm happiest when I've earned pride in something I've done, self-respect. From my first end-table to my last crude bird shelter, designed to keep out the pigeons but not the small birds, I've looked at what I've done with pride and self-respect. It makes me happy to be me. Everything else is an opinion, however informed or mis-informed it may be. It is said best in a Clint Eastwood voice, "A man should know his limitations." So say we all.
Well ... for some few with bamboo livingrooms, maybe not.
William
Thanks for your responses, I have gathered a bit more insight as to the why's and wherefore's of some thinkers here. But William hit the nail on the head as to where my thinking lays.....I am happy with that which I make, sell, trade, or give away. Though the gentleman who took me into his world of woodworking is not longer around, his Period pieces showed me numerous different ways to proceed. He worked in Colonial Williamsburg, moved back to Texas and has inspired a few of us to "try"...Often I heard 'there has not been a mistake he has not committed'. Though he was always making as he was taught...he was open to change, normally of his design.
I have a market, people who seek quality, of reasonable pricing, not overly fancy but not plain boxes either. So maybe I should say I make 'Quality' furniture and my Fine furniture is when I indulge myself. I opened this thread with a desire to understand how other's who make projects to sell are able to spend numerous hours planning, designing, and building only to find other than the pride that came from their creation, their monetary gains are small.
Living in the Hill Country of Texas I found my niche in the Red Oak, Country suitable, some Period Era attachments, but requiring functional, usable, and sturdy pieces. Yes I use mostly Frame and Panel construction, hardly ever put a plywood backs on anything, use a frame and panel backs, have gotten away from even using plywood bottoms for anything, put dust shelves in anything that has drawers, add functional parts to otherwise standard pieces, like a lip across the back of a chest of drawers to prevent items from falling off the back.
In otherwords there are pieces that people are able to look at, to see how I construct, and to request changes. I have not used metal draw slides in anything but file drawers for desk and sliding DVD panel drawers in large centers..
I build for pleasure, for income, for personal pride and as a need to let myself think and recharge. I have a saying I stole from my mentor I use when I get a very demanding customer who is price conscious yet wanting extra detail...I will build your piece according to my abilities, you are free to inspect and reject it when finished, if you reject it, so be it...but it will be built withinmyabilities. I have in the past 20 years had one piece rejected and it was sold shortly thereafter to another.
I guess I am getting cranky and short tempered, or have always been short tempered but people are bringing it out faster.. Is that a "Right of Passage" I have earned?
Again I thank each of you for your input, even you "Ohcomeon" I see our political difference border on the Great Divide.
Thanks.......John
You raise an issue of some interest to me. I build stuff for a living and only use "fancy" joinert when it's visible, and will add to the appeal of the piece. Since it's my total income, I tend to be pragmatic - do I really need to spend the time to dovetail a drawer frame? I don't think so. I don' think the "average" consumer, being price driven, will appreciate the "fancy" stuff enough to bear the extra cost.
Now there are those who do this as a hobby and draw satisfaction from creating such detail. More power to them. Jeez...there's even people who geta kick out of hands planing....errr, not me.
And then there are those consumers who demand this type of detail. Usually those seem to be the people who are used to paying high dollar for most of the things in life.
And regards the "generational survivability" of modern adhesives and mehods....I figure I'll be dead within 30 years, so what do I care. Hehe...
Your points were what I tried to raise as questions and to a couple do not think it came across....Although I can look at a beautifully made pieces for days, rubbing, looking how it was put together and wondering how long it took, how did they figure out how to....I garner satisfaction from a satisfied customer....
I put just as much work and pride into a Quality piece as I do in a piece of fine furniture..
Thanks for your comments
All right everybody. Everything has to stop sometime.
Time to quit stroking our egos and move on. This thread is over! Its all been said and our egos have come away all "touchy-feely" wet with good feelings. Let's drop it.
My newest T-shirt idea:
"Traditional joinery guys do it the time-honored, old-fashioned way, and make it last a lot longer."
Just kidding, nice discussion, interesting,...., good luck, Ed
suferdudes! Yep but we cralled in deep holes in NAM!
I believe that was only a few days before the tet.
The first shots were fired on 31 January 1968.
"I was maybe hoping beyond hope for a few honest answers. " With that one statement you attack every one who's opinion varies from yours. I think that all the answers you recieved are very honest. Why would they lie? The only dishonesty (or perhaps increadulty or exageration is more accurate) I detect is in some of you statements. Such as........................
" I am able to build and modify to meet a customers needs and at a price less than those stores...Granted I am able to make more money if I make more than on item, but my profit margin is still substantial." That is hard to believe. You can custom make a dresser or an entertainment center for less than $200? And still have a good profit margin? Again perhaps you are just stretching it a bit for impact.
"Why do you chose to use the difficult and time consuming ways when something so much easier and just as good is there" The method you describe of glueing 3/4 x 3/4 rails to attatch the table top IS the more traditional, difficult, and time consuming method. And you go on later to say "I have not used plywood in years for anything. My constructions is generally frame and panel or solid wood glue ups" Those sound like contrary philosophies to me.
First you say "I would not consider my work "highend" Then you say,"All this boils down to I MAKE FINE FURNITURE" Are you just argueing for the sake of argueing?
Finally, I am geniunely curious how you join legs and aprons on a dining table without traditional joinery. I assume it is something I am not famuliar with.
If I understand your beef it is that you tire of hearing people tell you that tennon joinery is better than fasteners. But you admit that traditional joinery does stand up to the ages better. You choose your methods to optimise you effeciency without a noticible degredation of quality. That is what we all do. Those who hand cut dovetails are following the same philosophy as you. They just have different standards of "quality" and profit.
Mike
Fine woodworking is in the eye of the WW... and the buyer.
Most people today do not buy fine furniture- or have good carpentry in their houses. Some can't afford it, some don't recognize it, some would rather spend their money on other things. Some people have decorators in every 10 years and replace their furniture as fashion trends change.
Ikea makes pretty inexpensive furniture- but to a young couple starting out, or to a kid leaving for college, it may fit the bill nicely.
You can step up to better made, mass produced furniture which will last longer, but is probably not destined to be an antique. And of course, you can go to hand made, high quality funiture made in small shops- if you have the wallet for it.
I hace a solid oak table in my kitchen that I bought 23 years ago when I started my first job. The legs are attached by steel fasteners. Not M & T construction, I admit- but the table has been moved 11 times and the legs don't wobble. It's also been a lot easier to move it with the legs off- particularly up a narrow back staircase.
As for the WW, it depends on why they butcher wood. If you're making a living at it, then you must know your market. One of my teachers was a woman in her 30s. She has a WW shop in Phila, and makes very fine pieces that she shows and sells along the east coast- and has a few awards to boot. The day she began demostrating hand cut DTs to us, she smiled wanly and admitted she didn't cut many DTs- it's not a big part of the pieces that she sells the most. Nevertheless, she went ahead and did it very well. She has a clientel that purchase her pieces, and she has tailored her work for that market.
For many of us amateurs, cutting DTs and M&Ts by hand is relaxing and satisfying. It's why we like WWing. We don't have to worry about making our overhead- that's our day job. But it would be a mistake to dismiss accomplished amateurs as dilettantes- some of the best WWs I know are amateurs, retired from successful careers. They have the time to pursue WWing for its own sake and spend their time cutting complex joints, veneering and French polishing, often with impressive results. They can afford to take the time to do things that probably aren't cost effective- they are not on the clock. I have also seen some pros who are so good and so fast that they make it seem effortless. I once saw Franz Klaus cut a perfect tapered sliding dovetail by hand in about eight minutes.
As for joinery vs mechanical fasteners, they both work. I'd say that not every drawer needs a dovetail, nor does every table need a mortise and tenon, but these joints have a great track record. In some applications, such as chair construction, I don't think they can be easily replaced.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I guess you could continue asking questions along the same lines:
Why build furniture out of wood, a hopelessly outdated and structurally inferior substance when there are new, high tech, engineered materials available?
or the final one: Why build furniture at all when you can go to Ikea or Walmart and buy it?
Of course I am just kidding to make my point.
If it's all about profit and bottom line I don't believe many people would be building furniture, there are easier to make a living.
Some part of you has got to love the work and the tradition behind it.
For a production shop making dozens or hundreds of a piece of furniture, it probably doesn't pay to be real traditional about joinery and to save time and money they may use expedients.
But for making one-offs, traditional ways make sense. I can cut & chop the 8 M & T joints for a table as fast or faster than I can set up the tenon jig for the TS or router and set up the hollow chisel morticer, run test pieces and mill the stock.
I think for craftspeople, how something is made, and the joy and satisfaction gained in the making of a piece is important, not just what it looks like when it's done.
David C.
Viet, very interesting discussion-waaaaay better than where I last saw you consorting with the man of many many faces.
I think folk like Steve, Dusty and Sapwood have answered your question very well, so I have only a quick question for you: for that discerning customer, the one who knows quality when he sees it, and is able to pay for it-can you give an example of a joint better than a mortice and tenon to use on the four legged table he wants? (You will/should have already been to his home , and noted the existing furniture there).
One's bottom line is not being 'eaten into' if your customer is willing to pay for quality, traditional construction methods.
If you are trying to compete, pricewise, with the department store in town then you will lose your a$$ in a hearbeat.
There is not much difference in furniture manufactured in a backyard shop than furniture manufactured by a large company.
Finely crafted furniture is in another class altogether.
Honest questions and civil responses....
I'm hardly ever cival but has responses..
Build as YOU see and the customer likes..! End of story!
EDIT: why do you spend so much time on a piece that eats into your bottom line?
I work cheep and I like to do it the way the customer likes..
I bet ya can tell I loose on most jobs!
Edited 2/10/2006 10:51 am by WillGeorge
Like many others here, I do woodworking for fun, so I don't have to worry about woodworking being the bottom line and putting food on the table, as you do.
My answer to you is simple: Do what you need to do and what you can live with. You (should) know your market better than any one else. If you use modern joinery methods and don't mis-represent your work to your customers, what difference does it really make? They are not expecting hand-cut joinery, and you're not telling them that's what they're getting. As long as both parties know what the deal is, and the customer honestly concludes s/he is getting good value for the money, then everyone should be reasonably satisfied.
The fact that I or anyone else might/would do it differently is irrelevant. We don't have to worry about putting food on your table (we worry about doing that for our own tables....) -- you do, so you're the one who has to determine what the best way to do that is; as long as it's ethical, there are many, many solutions to that age-old problem.
Besides, not everyone in the market for buying furniture has $5,000 (just to choose an arbitrary figure) to spend on a chair or an end table. Most customers have a limited furniture budget, either from necessity or choice. (You already know this.) It sounds to me like you have chosen a particular segment of the market to build furniture for, and are reasonably successful at it. Sounds honorable enough to me. Why worry about what the rest of us think?
In your original post you made the statement "If you are in business to make money and are
not into high end furniture".
Where furniture pieces are concerned, high end furniture is fine woodworking, other furniture is something else.
Ron
For a number of years I have listened to and watched the "purist and craftsman" bicker about how to build furniture...
First why are purist and craftsman put in such a negative way. Look up the definitions:
Craftsman: A professional whose work is consistently of high quality.
Purist: A purist is one who desires that a particular item remain true to its essence and free from adulterating or diluting influences.
Second they are hardly mutually inclusive. One can be a craftsman and not a purist, and of course the reverse is more often true than not.
So again, Why do you chose to use the difficult and time consuming ways when something so much easier and just as good is there... Choice or you do not know another way?
I don't necessarily consider many of the methods you have referred to as difficult, and I've seen people (craftsman) do it very fast as well. I guess it just takes practice.
As for 'just as good', this is very subjective. Mortise and tennon, and dovetail joints for instance have an large amount of mechanical strength when done properly. I doubt that the router bit joints have the same strength. One would expect the stronger joint to last the longest.
What has happend that you've become so anti-traditional?
As a professional you know your customers best. Some custom pieces don't need traditional joints, or even traditional materials. Some costumers are not willing to pay for it them.
This thread's getting better and better. You do it because you do, for whatever reason.
The respondents in this forum are mostly amateurs, that do it for the love of it, so what does it matter what they think or care from a professionals point of view?
Business doesn't give a rats arse how you make money, it just cares that you do.
Have you posed the same question over at Woodweb? Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
The respondents in this forum are mostly amateurs,Yep I HAVE been one for MANY years! But I try!
Vietvet67,
I'm a part time woodworker. I have a full time job that pays the bills, and my custom woodworking pays for toys ect.. That said, here are my reasons for my use of handcut dovetails, mortise and tenons.
1) I have a big mirror over my bathroom vanity. In the morning I need to use that mirror as I prepair myself for the day ahead. I couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I though I wasn't planning to do my very best in the day head, or in days past.... For me dovetails,ect is the very best I can do.
2) I want my wood products to be used for generations. Someone may not want a piece of mine 200 years from now, and that's OK too. But when my work gets put in the back of the garbage truck, and operator starts the crusher, I want the truck to break, not my piece of work.
3) My customers come to me because they can't find quality furnishings in the stores. They're looking for something different. I try to give them what they want. And from what I've seen that Dovetails and mortise and tenons.
I'm glad that you have been having good luck in your buisness. I hope it continues for you. Good luck in the days ahead.
You handle "Vietvet67" implies that you were in South East Asia in the '60s. If so, Thank you for your service.
GRW
Vietvet67,
There is another dimension to this discussion that for some reason has not been raised..that is the ability of the craftsperson to make quality furniture. The Shaker designs are a classic example of quality appropriate design(joinery) to fit the purpose...no more, no less. I've also seen this applied in Rhode Island furniture too.
Dovetailing a 2"x2" draw may be okay for fine furniture ..but for quality furniture its like putting $150 sneakers on a 5th grader....way overkill.
NOBODY, and I don't use that term lightly, commissions a piece of standalone furniture expecting to get anything less than the absolute finest quality. Bulk case goods (kitchen cabinets and home built-ins) can be a slightly different ball of wax.
The market for standalone furniture stands at the apex of custom woodworking. Everything else falls into a pecking order somewhat below.
I believe that's mostly true, but different people with different backgrounds and knowledge define absolute finest quality differently. Even rich people define quality in relation to price to some degree. And everyone is looking for a bargain.
And, in an occupation where some relatively skilled people are willing to work for less than $15 per hour, with psychic earnings coming from working independently, there may well be woodworkers willing to offer goods at prices which don't allow top quality, even though the woodworker ends up being paid peanuts.
It was shaker crafts people who designed the circular saw for cutting wood. If modern materials had been available two hundred years ago, many craftsmen would have used tem in the appropriate application. It is a matter of knowing what works best and when, with what materials. Woodworking is applied arts and technology, and there are many ways to paint a painting, using oils, acrylics, on canvas, or board, and so on. Making a piece of furniture is sort of an expression of self, your experience, skill and time. If a pice bearing your mark is still in use 150 years from now, how you built it becomes a mute point, it has stood the test of time. Not all the registered antiques in the world would be considered works of art the day they were built.
33878.59 in reply to 33878.1
It was shaker crafts people who designed the circular saw for cutting wood
Often repeated legend but the circular saw was used long before the shakers.
Ron,
If the Shakers did not, then who did? What is the proof for whoever did? Where/what is the documentation?
Lookin' forward to knowing,
Alan - planesaw
I dn't know how accurate this is, it is off the internet after all...
Saws Saws are toosl with a thin metal strip with teeth on one edge or a thin metal disk with teeth on the periphery. In 1777, Samuel Miller invented the circular saw in England, the round metal disk type of saw that cuts by spinning and is used hand-held or table-mounted. Large circular saws are found in saw mills and are used to produce lumber. In 1813, Shaker-Sister, Tabitha Babbitt (1784-1854) invented the first circular saw used in a saw mill. Babbitt was working in the spinning house at the Harvard Shaker community in Massachusetts, when she decided to invent an improvement to the two-man pit saws that were being used for lumber production. Tabitha Babbitt is also credited with inventing an improved version of cut nails, a new method of making false teeth, and an improved spinning wheel head.
"1920 edition of the William H. Field Company "Field's Wood Working Machinery Reference Book
The circular saw was supposed to have been originated in Holland, but the first patent was granted in 1777 to Samuel Miller of Southampton. In the beginning the blades were made with square holes. William Rowland, of Philadelphia. was the first manufacturer of blades in this country when he became established in 1806 in Philadelphia. The use of the inserted tooth, or the sectional or false tooth as it was originally called, was invented in 1824 by Robert Eastman, of Brunswick, Maine."
Note T Babbit was supposed to "invent this around 1813" so it appears she could order her saw blades right away from Philadelphia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzz_saw
Is another source
The Shaker's had strong ties to England so it's possible she may have learned of it from there. They certainly adapted the use quickly but to say that she "invented" the saw which had been patented in the 1700's is a stretch
Your info is on the circular sawblade. The credit for T Babbit is that she invented the tablesaw (not the circular sawblade) using the circular sawblade.
Appears to me the claim still stands.
Alan - planesaw
Edited 2/17/2006 9:50 am ET by Planesaw
"1777, Samuel Miller invented the circular saw in England, the round metal disk type of saw that cuts by spinning and is used hand-held or table-mounted
In 1780, Gervinus also invented a circular saw, however, a more primitive one.
In 1813, Shaker-Sister, Tabitha Babbitt (1784-1854) invented the first circular saw used in a saw mill. Babbitt was working in the spinning house at the Harvard Shaker community in Massachusetts, when she decided to invent an improvement to the two-man pit saws that were being used for lumber production"
I have somewhere in my library a more complete description of primitive table saws but I am not interested enough to sort through 200+ (though I could probably eliminate many off hand)books to find the references again. If you feel that sister Tabitha invented the circular saw and table saw be my guest.
Ron,
The title of this is ".... and civil responses. No need for the "If you feel that sister Tabitha invented the circular saw and table saw be my guest."
If you will note what I have said, I did NOT make the claim that she invented the table saw or the circular saw blade. I, like many others, have always heard that Ms. Babbitt invented the table saw. I am simply trying to distinguish between what I have heard, versus what someone else claims based on what they have heard, versus some documentation about who really did invent the circular blade and its various mountings, be they table, portable, mill, or whatever.
When the references you and others have quoted says, " and is used hand-held or table-mounted," grammatically, that is referencing the use of the circular sawblade today. Doesn't mean it was used that way (portable) originally. According to one of the sources the "circular saw" was not "invented" until 1924.
All that to say, I am glad to be more accurately informed as to who invented what when. And regardless of Ms. Babbitt's (one T or two?) role, I greatly appreciate the application of the circular saw blade to wood.
Happy sawdust,
Alan - planesaw
I just noted comments about who invented the circular saw and it reminded me of reading a book given to me for Christmas by my daughter. "Shaker Style" by John S. Bowman. He states that 'a circular saw for a powered mill saw-its invention is credited to a Shaker woman'. He doesn't give her name or a date nor his source of information. The book is published by World Publications Group Inc.
Old post but I have seen that.. Probably true.. Womens' are SMART!
Sorry my error.
Sorry to jump in late but I just started reading this post.
BTW, I invented the circular saw and it is patented! Everyone is stealing my idea!
Er, sound familiar to a previous controversy?
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
81,
Your real name Al Gore? ;-))
Cheers,
Ray Pine
Very good. Still laughing!
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
Glad you straightened that out. I just arrived in Northcentral Arkansas for a week. Maybe you can show me the original table saw.
Thanks,
Alan - planesaw
It ain't Northcentral Arkansas -- it's God's country! And keep it a secret! :-)
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
Amen for God's country. Dad was born and raised on the White River at Calico Rock. Now lives in Searcy. Dad always told us we were Mountain Williams -- better than hillbillys.
I spent much of my childhood floating the White and the Buffalo, riding the current driven ferry at Calico, playing on the glades of Izard County, etc., etc. That neck of the woods is young boy's paradise.
Irma's in Calico may be closed now, but the man who owned it had one of the most extensive tool collections I have seen in the South. Moved there from Arizona as I recall.
Unfortunately I return to the sweetest place on earth -- Hershey, PA -- at the end of the week. Keep the secret. I don't want too many people retiring in Arkansas and spoiling one of the best secrets left.
Alan - planesaw
You probably remember the current driven ferry at Oil Trough. I think it was one of the last ones operated by the state that was current driven!
WOW! Old memories! Grew up in God's country, left for 30+ years and now retired back here. Miss the big city but would not move back. Life here is slow and long lived!
Are you here visiting friends and family or vacationing?
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
Visiting my parents, in their mid 80s, and son and daughter-in-law in Searcy. Sister and brother-in-law in L.R.
We have thought about retiring back in Arkansas, but heat/humidity keeps us thinking. We have lived east and west, north and south, and really do like PA. But, the taxes are higher and along with winter fuel bills. We don't know what we'll do. Still about 7 years or so before I retired, if I do.
What sort of woodworking do you do?
Alan - planesaw
Mostly just cabinetry in our retirement house we are still building.
Looking forward to making some furniture when the new house is finished.
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
That the Shaker's did use the circular saw and the question of whether they invented it or were just early adopters is neither here nor there.
Shakers approached their furniture building seeking perfection in their works. No lesser standard was thought to be appropriate for a church that believed that manual labor was a type of religious ritual. Non-functional ornament was also sinful, which is why the stark simplicity of the shaker style.
Mother Ann injoined the members to "....Do your work as though you had a thousand years to live, and as if you were to die tomorrow."
I haven't read every submission to this discussion, but it is quite interesting. It seems to me that you must know and please your market well and are satisfied that none of your customers is cheated in any way. You should sleep well each night.
Like you, I am flexible about methods. As an amateur who is now retired, I feel free to pursue some of the more labor intensive ways of working. I have been able to acquire tools I never had time to use before also. There are some methods of work that I will never be able to try. There is only so much time and only so many projects and methods that can be pursued and so many tools that can be put to work. I certainly don't want to be a tool collector and I would like to use the same method more than once.
My efforts are almost totally for personal satisfaction which is very different from why you work though personal satisfaction is a factor in your happiness for sure. There are a few inhibitions that I have about fine woodworking, however. After doing it once in my youth, I will never put a brad or nail anywhere in anything that I consider fine. Screws applied properly work great. I like the coarse thread bugle headed black ones. They look good against brass finishing washers, too. They can usually be removed and their holes repaired if need be. Tee nuts and steel rod have their uses, too.
With the right power tools, I have found that mortise and tenon and dovetail joints are not very time consuming. If the structure of your piece does not benefit from using these construction methods, why do it? In my case, dovetails may add a bit of "fineness" to my project. M&T joints add strength when that is needed.
I visited a new furniture store recently. The salesperson proudly showed me drawers constructed of thin veneer plywood, about 7 layers. The corners were dovetailed! Dovetails in plywood? Of course, the acute angle corners were crumbling and no more long- to long-grain glue surface was available than would have been with a simple rabbet joint. The judicious application of the finer techniques is essential. It sound as if that is the philosophy that you follow. Carry on!
Cadiddlehopper
I haven't read all 73 responses up to this point either. Maybe somebody said this already in an attempt to answer the originator's question:
"Why build it like that when you can build it easier, faster, more cheaply this way?"
Ego
Vanity
To build a monument's to one's self
To rationalize or validate the purchase of some expensive tool
To harken back to the old days, a connection to the past
To risk something and be able to pull it off, again going back to vanity
To make them feel like they are a better person/woodworker than the other hack woodworkers out there. A feeling of superiority.
Marketing: "All of my case pieces have hand dovetailed drawers."
Maybe you all need to read Cecil Pierce's book. What was that called? The Workmanship of Risk, IIRC.
Or was that David Pye?
Switching gears here just a little bit...pardon the thread drift.
Ya' know how our soldiers complain about how the M-16 gets the least bit of dust in it and it jams. But the AK's just keep on chugging on. I think some manufacturers/machinists make the M-16 out to be a testament to their machinist skills and/or rationalize their multimillion dollar CNC milling machines: "With this Acme 4 axis CNC machine that we paid $5.2 million for we can keep our tolerances close enough to make match grade rifles."
Anywhoooo...sorry for the drift.
Chills
The type of furniture you build and the market you are building to often dictate the construction techniques you use to earn a living. When I built furniture for a living 25 years ago I mostly built custom pieces to match something the customer already had like a dresser and bed to go along with an old chest of drawers past down from the folks. I looked at the existing piece and matched the construction methods to it. My work was priced accordingly. To fill gaps, I built pine pieces for a "Finish it Yourself" store. Since the furniture was naked, any lack of craftsmanship couldn't be hidden. Any failed joints became immediately apparent and would have killed a steady source of income for me. Typically I was building tables, desks, cabinets, trunks, etc. in lots of 6. I used a few jigs and dedicated tools to help me build faster. I had four or five cheap routers configured to do a single task. One cut dovetails on a jig, one cut rabbits and dadoes, one strictly cut mortises, my table mounted router cut the pieces for raised panel doors or cabinet sides. I mounted a port-a-line to a heavy duty corded drill and found it to work just as well and precise as my drill press, but allowed me to work significantly faster.
I stayed away from pocket hole joints, dowel joints, and biscuit joints at the time because I found this type of joinery to be slower, less precise, and more prone to failure than spline joints, floating tenons, true mortise and tenon, dadoes, rabbits, and dovetails. Later on I did give in and purchased a biscuit jointer when I started doing a lot of cabinetry. Biscuits make faceframing faster and stronger.
I mount tops the way you described using 3/4 sq rails all around with screws tighted through expansion slots. This approach is superior in my opinion to the figure 8 hardware.
NO MATTER THE CONSTRUCTION TECHNIQUES USED, I found thinking ahead about the project and organizing the tasks to be performed was where time could be saved. All parts that needed mortises got cut at the same time from a single setup if at all possible. Same for dovetails, rabbits, dadoes, etc. It is the setup time that kills you. To make a living, you have to organize your work to make the most efficient use of your time, tools, and talent. The guys I knew who starved never figured this out, regardless of the quality of their work.
As long as your customers know your methods of construction and are happy with your products there just isn't an issue here. The issue comes into play when your methods include deceit. Case in point, I was in a fairly highend shop looking at an very fancy dresser. The sales guy pulled out one of the drawers to show me the handcut dovetails. To my surprise, the joints weren't dovetails at all they were rabbit joints with some veneers glued on to look like dovetails. Personally, I could have cut the dovetails quicker than I could have pieced together the drawer their way.
Just be honest about your work, if it sells great, if not, then change your methods to what does sell. Happy building!
Edited 2/23/2006 4:12 am ET by gdblake
Hi, before my wife and I built our shop we bought new furniture for our new house. When I saw the price for a bedroom suite I thought how many tools I could buy with that money. And that is what I did. We went to Rooms-To-Go, furniture looks great. After six months went by all the nuts and bolts had come lose. Big table and six chairs and this took a lot of time. I did not know you could put so many bolts on a single chair. There are many ways to join pieces together, and I do like to keep it simple. Do what works for you.
Methods evolve over time--you know the old adage "water seeks its own level"? Yes I prefer traditional methods, but as I learn as I go, my methods are somewhat convoluted, meaning Tag Frid and James Krenov as well as Norm and Dave would cringe! But it works for me and what I build is only for my family.
With that said, it is not that hard or time consuming to use traditional methods. I use a combination of handtools and machinery. Sometimes mortices and tenons are handcut, sometimes with a mortiser and and table saw--its the best tool and/or method for the job at hand. Recently I've started using a chamfer plane to chamfer edges. Guess what? It is infinitely quicker than a router and infinitely safer! Plus it gives a better edge. On this same project I had some ripping to a scribed line to do. Out came my Disston #16 6 point rip, clamp the board in a vise and go to town. Danged if the finish cut didn't even need touching up with a block plane, fit perfectly and again much quicker and safer than with the table saw. Earlier this morning the tablesaw was in use to produce about 25' of 1-3/4" wide stock. Point is, know your tools. Problem is, our modern woodworkers are much different than earlier generations, and we got far more tools than they did. Net effect is we never get to know or understand the use of many things!
This game of ours requires constant learning and changing, if we want to enjoy it. Otherwise it becomes a job.
Tony Z.
The most important thing in furniture making, or in life (period) is to enjoy the journey (jointery).
If your goal is the endpoint, and the trip is superfluous, then the quickest way to get there is the best for you. Your decision has to be at what point does speed and material costs conflict with your desired quality. There is always room in this world for Yugos and Cadillacs. What would be wrong in my opinion would be trying to sell a Yugo for a Cadillac.
Dave
It depends where you source your business. If you profit by recommendation you do what the customer is willing to pay for. If you do good low end work, you biscuit. In neither case do you botch. It's like food.Pubs advertise "Good Home Cooking".It's for the customer to decide if it's good!
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