In an earlier thread someone mentioned that they couldn’t find honing cones to fit the chisels that come with the Steel City mortiser. As I’m seriously considering buying one, I thought I’d e-mail Steel City and see what they had to say. Their response, in part–
“SCTW does not sell Honing Cones…
However inform the customer check out a Woodcraft store or
http://www.allprotools.com/store/page400.html they both sell DMT Honing
Cones.
There is also, The Rockler 3 Piece Sharpening Set (Rockler #24727) for
hollow mortising chisels is well worth the price of $19.95 (5-18-2005),
especially if you consider the cost of replacing one chisel.
http://www.rockler.com/”
Hope this is helpful.
Replies
That was me, probably. Although I didn't say "I can't find any" -- simply said the ones for the Delta, sold by Lee Valley, seem to be the wrong angle for my SC chisels. Thanks for posting the response you got from SC. I had already planned to take one of these chisels with me the next time I visit Woodcraft in Seattle. and I'll post in this thread with the results.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hey,
How do you guys/ gals like the SC morticer? I dont have one, and never used one, so I dont have a point of reference. Not yet a review I can find on the Steel City.. Also, It's $250 w/ $50 rebate. I thought that was a pretty good deal, if it works well.
A final Q: Does the micro adjust work well:
"Rotate the adjustment knob (D) clockwise to move
the fence in towards the mortiser column. Rotate
counterclockwise to move the fence away from the
mortiser column."
Thanks,
KB
I haven't used mine much yet, but for that price, I don't think you'll find anything else that's near as good. "I wanna rebate" ROFL!!!
Beats the socks off of a Shop Fox, Delta or Jet for that price or more. Big table with roller hold-ins, great stuff.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
PS: The fine adjustment worked well on mine during the test-drive. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks for the replies!
KB
Hello Keef,A quick search found no good deals on this product- would you mind passing along the location/link for the SC Mortiser for 250.00.much obliged,Dave
Steel City Mortiser at St. Louis Woodcraft $249.00
2077 Congressional Drive
West Port Area
St. Louis, MO 63146
Phone: 314-993-0413
2077 Congressional Drive
West Port Area
St. Louis, MO 63146
Phone: 314-993-0413
I guess if I'm getting e-mails asking "where?" then that is a pretty good price? Three machines were sitting all together- JET, Delta, Steel City- all were priced for $249. Christmas really kikked my donkey or I would just "do it". THey also have a Lie-Nelson block plane w/ adjustable mouth <on sale> 20 bucks off!
THe wood show is in just 3 weeks..wondering if I can better the deal there?
Keef
"Three machines were sitting all together- JET, Delta, Steel City- all were priced for $249." Hah! Sounds familiar. The scene when I bought my SC mortiser: I drove all the way to Sumner from Bainbridge Island (a couple hours, including ferry ride) specifically to pick up a General tilting-head mortiser. Walked into the big tool-room and saw the SC sitting there with a Shop Fox, General TH and probably a couple others (don't remember). The SC mortiser just grabbed me with it's design. Because I "had my mind made up" when I started, it took an hour of examining and pondering to re-make it! Poor sales guy.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I would ask you why you changed your mind but being as I have the tool you started out to buy sitting on a bench in the shop i am afaid to ask! :)
I picked this up last year so I did not have the option of the SC tools at the time.
Doug Meyer
Oh, now, it's OK Doug. ;-) The large, large table (and built-in extensions) and the micro-adjust of the SC really grabbed my attention. And the roller "hold-ins" for stock. I considered how much I'd really need a tilting head and what other options I had to achieve the same task with a regular mortiser, didn't seem like too much to give up. With the General, I'd have to build a bigger table, or extensions, or both. Use a clamp. Fit and finish were similar between the two. Steel City stole the show design-wise.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Humm. I have not seen the SC one being as they were not out when i was looking and that I have not been back in that part of the local suppliers show room sense they have been out (being as I don't need the tools in that area I avoid it). So I will take your word for it. Being as I am coming from the old Delta (the first Delta, but after they upgunned the motor) they are ALL a huge improvement to me.
Doug Meyer
The price is $269.00 at Woodcraft and not $250 as I previously posted. Sorry.
KB
Forestgirl - did you ever find honing cones for your SC mortiser? I bought the machine just before the rebate offer ended. Great tool! Now I'm looking for sharpening cones.
John L
Nope, haven't looked. Actually, I was going to check the Lee Valley ones again and make sure that they really don't fit. I'll do that tonight, let you know.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Are these what you are looking for?http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=11153&filter=mortiser%20honeIn addition to honing the inside of the chisels it is equally--or even more--important to hone the outside of the chisels. Hone the outside surfaces to the same high polish that you would the backs of your hand chisels or plane irons. Use the same stones or technique to hone these surfaces.This outside honing will do more to to ease the entry into and exit from the wood than will honing the inside edges.It's also very important to set the auger correctly into the chisel. The steps are to first insert the chisel into the quill using the thickness of a quarter to prevent the chisel from fully seating. Then insert the auger into the bit and fully seat it. Now, loosen the chisel, remove the quarter and fully seat the chisel. This will establish the correct clearence between the auger and chisel. If the auger touches the chisel, the frictional heat will burn the chisel and/or the auger.Howie.........
I know a guy named Beldar, he comes from France. He has got one of the best honing cones I have ever seen.
Thanks, Howie! That's exactly what I'm looking for - as long as they work with the Steel City chisels. I understand the the SCc are at a different angle than the Deltas.
John
Darn, sorry I forgot to check those last night. No matter how long I stared at them, they just didn't fit. The Lee Valley set has one cone for main sharpening, one for a microbevel.
Given Sarge's experience with Steel City, seems like an email campaign would work to get us what we need. I'll drop a note to them noting that the LV set is the wrong angle, asking if Rockleer one works, letting them know that this is an accesory we'd really appreciate.
PS: If that Rockler set is a 3-piece set as it states, I'm not seeing how there can be 2 grits (handle + chuck + cone(s)
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 5/6/2007 11:13 am by forestgirl
Good afternoon FG,
Did you know that LV carries two sizes of sharpening cones (Large and small). Do a search on their site for "cone sharpeners". The large cones (item # 77J1.22) are listed with the premium mortising chisels and the small cones (item # 77J81.20) are listed are on the left and are made for the Delta chisels. (I know this because I now have both sets !)
Good Luck,
Bruce
I guess I could send the first set I got back and try the bigger ones. The question is, what angle are those larger cones at? I'm anticipating using the mortiser quite a bit (pun? oops) this summer, as my step-son and his wife just bought a bigger house, a Craftsman-style built way back when, and I'm hoping to make some A&C accessories for them.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I'm not quite sure why you are worried about the angle of the cone. Just thinking it through, the interior angle shouldn't make much difference on anything. Unless you have some exotic steel, or the angle is severely different I'd use the cones that have the "wrong" angle.
"...the interior angle shouldn't make much difference on anything." Sure makes a difference on a bench chisel, why wouldn't it make a difference on a mortising chisel? Don't the same mechanical principles apply? If I used the Delta cones on the Steel City chisels, the angle would be much steeper and I'd be making quite a change in the depth of the hollowed-out part of the chisel.
Besides which, significantly altering a tool that would cost me up to $25 or $30 to replace doesn't make any sense to me when I don't know for sure there'd be no ill effects.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
fg, the angle on bench chisles is pretty much constant; at 25-degrees for paring, and 30-degrees for chopping, some variation if you are sharpening for a specialized task. Ask, your manufacturer why they have an angle different from all the others.
The steel, is probably a very similar alloy, the hardnes is going to be very close, and the work to be done is identical. So, why the difference? It could be a design decision, or as simple as that is what tooling their manufacturer had available.
If all the cones you are finding don't match the angle it is cut to, and the manufacturer isn't touting it as the new wonder feature, the question arises; why this angle?
"Ask, your manufacturer why they have an angle different from all the others."
Neither I, nor probably you, know whether it's different from all the others. It is only evident that it is different from the angle of the Delta mortising chisels.
"If all the cones you are finding don't match the angle...." I don't know that this is true, as I just found out about the other set of Lee Valley cones this morning. It is quite possible that they will match the Steel City chisels, but it certainly will be a week or two before I have any way of finding out.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FGWhat is the angle of the bevel inside the Steel City chisels? Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
I have no idea! I posed the same question somewhere last fall, and Sarge, I think it was, pointed out how difficult it is to get anything in there to check. ROFL! If I could find my chisel angle-checking gizmo it might work, but for the life of me I can't figure out where I put it.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG, I think the prior poster's point was that it should make no difference in the performance of the chisel if you end up changing the honing angle somewhat. After all, if a Delta chisel works fine with its angle, the Steel City chisel should work with the same angle.Howie.........
Hi, Howie. I understand. I guess it's all in the definition of "somewhat." It looks like more than a small difference in angles to me -- the cone is .... what.... "narrower", more upright. A steeper steeple, if you will...you know what I mean.
I'm swapping the Delta cones for the other set at Lee Valley -- got a note from Customer Service this afternoon. If they are closer to the original angle, I'll go ahead and use them. When sharpening plane blades and other stuff I don't obsess about the angle as long as it's within a couple degrees or so -- I understand the basic principle. Just don't want to do something stupid with these chisels and end up costing myself money I can't afford right now.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Morning FG...
Interestingly, I just got off the phone with Mike Box at Steel City in Murfreesboro, TN. and asked about the angle. He did not know and ask me to hold while calling their design engineer on his cell phone who was on the way in to work.
The Steel City should be 60* degrees and the same as the Delta angle at the time the SC mortiser was originally designed. Most of these guys at SC came from Delta and the Delta angle was adapted as they felt no need for design change on this particular issue. He mentioned that Delta could have changed their angle since, but was not aware of it?
Hand mortice chisels have to have higher angles to handle impact in hard-wood as opposed to paring, but if you get too high, it reduces the actual cutting action. On mortise machines, the auger bit is doing most of the work in advance of the chisel, so a steep angle is not a problem and will avoid fractures in the tip. Basically it is just squaring off what wasn't evacuated with the drill bit.
So.... small variances in the angle on a mortiser would not appear to be a problem in my mind. As long as you don't have too low an angle that will cut cleaner but roll and chip tips.. and not too high an angle as to become blunt with no severing action.. a wide variance of what is acceptable in between those two would be satisfactory to me personally.
I have used sand-paper on a tapered piece of wood and hand held the angle with a guess. Nothing high-tech with that approach and it has presented no problem even with angles changed slightly with each honing.
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
Hey, Sarge, thanks for asking them! This whole thing is getting way more attention than I ever intended, but is somewhat interesting. I can tell you for sure, the angle on the honing cones for the Delta chisels is nowhere close to the Steel City chisels. Knowing the SC angle, I could probably get a decent estimate of the Delta cone angle.
I'm sure I can touch them up by hand when the time comes, but am hoping the large cones from Lee Valley will fit. We'll see in a couple weeks.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Evening FG..
See message #33 & #34 as Tom brought something to my attention and he has to be correct as I gave it no thought after getting off the phone with Mike this morning.
Out of curiousity.. could you take a thin piece of wire if you have one and bend the very tip from the 90* degree outer wall of your chisel to the inside. By laying it flat once you have done it, draw an extension line from the short wire tip end you bent to conform to the inner angle and get a fix with a protractor from the 90* angle line to determine the true angle inside the chisel.
If ya can't.. no biggie but thanks in advance if ya can...
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
Edited 5/10/2007 10:17 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
I'll take a look tomorrow -- Nick just got home from a trip to Eastern WA and I'm staying in the house like a good wife. ROFL!!!! He tolerates me going out into the shop for 2, 3, sometimes 4 hours at night, so I gotta give him a break.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG and SargeYou could get a close guesstimate of the angle by taking a bench chisel whose cutting angle you do know, place in next to the mortise chisel in very good light, and 'compare and contrast'. Not a precise measurement but would get you in the ballpark. Sarge's (or whoever) wire idea would be more precise. I'm a little surprised that SC can't put their hands on the angle. I'm off to our church's charity golf tournament, if the weather holds. Have a great day, all. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Hey Sarge60 degrees sounds awfully blunt for a mortise chisel, assuming it is in relation to the outside edge of the chisel. I know I'm missing something about this. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Evening Tom...
I got right off the phone and posted what they said in a rush as I had painting to do. And since you brought it to my attention, I have to whole-heartily agree. Must have been a jack-hammer the customer service lad from SC asked the designer about. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
I will go down latter to my shop and look at 60* degrees, but as you I can tell you that is too blunt to do any severing. With a bit doing the excavating I could see maybe a steep 45* degrees as keep my hand mortise chisels at 35* to avoid tips rolling on impact, but 60* wouldn't be cutting it... it would be punching it out and I doubt that. Mike might have mis-understood the spec I was asking about as that sounds more like the angle of the auger bit tip than the chisel.
Will try to call tomorrow as busy on vacation and have eye exam in the afternoon. But then again to re-inforce what you said.. with clear mind it can't be... or better yet shouldn't be! :>)
Regards..
Sarge..jt
Edited 5/10/2007 10:09 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
"first insert the chisel into the quill using the thickness of a quarter to prevent the chisel from fully seating"
You must be rich -- I just use a dime.
;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike... I laughed ALOT at that one!
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