Replies

1. 
   pzgren | Aug 07, 2007 06:48pm | #1

   Mel,

     Before I answer your questions with my nickel's worth, let me ask a question: do you plan to do at least some of your board preparation with power tools, specifically a jointer and/or thickness planer?

     If the answer is yes, then you can reduce the number of irons you need.

     I agree with Rob Cosman that a #5½ is a good choice for a single (bench) plane shop: it makes an excellent smoother/panel plane, a very nice jack plane (I like the #5½ size better than the #5 size), a serviceable jointer/trying plane, and also a serviceable scrub plane.

     To answer your questions:

     (A) Yes; it makes very good sense (see below).

     (B) Two (flat and slightly cambered) if using power tools to do the initial surfacing, three if not (add the heavily cambered iron).

     (C) Both work fine. The prime factor is more a matter of personal preference and which one you can best do repeatably and reliably, to give you the cutting results you want.

     My experience with the #5½ is that it far out-performs the #5, because of its length, width, and mass.

     A new LN #5½ will allow you to plane almost any domestic wood and many of the tropical hard woods (especially if you add either or both of the high angle frogs) with little or no tear-out.

     A pre-WW II vintage Stanley (get a Type 11 or a Sweetheart-era plane -- they have the frog adjustment screw and have good quality castings & irons; the Rosewood totes and knobs ain't too bad either...) will do nearly as well after only a moderate amount of tune-up (assuming that the plane is in good condition to begin with); you may have to invest in a new iron/chip breaker to turn it into a super performer (as a smoother).

     Although my #5½s are usually set up as panel planes, I have also used them for jointing and flattening shorter boards, and for removing wood quickly; they work very well for all of those purposes.

     All in all, if you're only going to have one bench plane (for a while), you'd have a hard time finding another plane that will give you the versatility and performance of a #5½.

     Go for it, and have fun!!

   .

   Tschüß!

   James

    

   "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."

    

   -- A.C. Clarke

1. 
   9619 | Aug 07, 2007 07:45pm | #3

   James,
   Danke schoen, my friend.
   You guessed correctly. I will use my motorized jointer and planer to do preliminary board preparation. I am glad that Rob Cosman backs up your recommendation on the 5 1/2. I am insufficiently knowledgeable in old tools to go that route. I will buy new. I am glad that my preparatory reading helped me to reach the conclusion on honing that you recommend: a slight cambering on a blade for a smoothing plane and a flat cutting edge on a blade for jointing and for the shooting board. I asked which method of eliminating plane marks (blade corners) is preferable (rounding the corners or putting a gentle camber on each side). You responded by saying to use whichever I can most reliably produce. Intellectually, I know how to do that latter, and I am certain that I can do well at it after some practice. However, I have seen no information on how to "round the corners". I have a 1934 book by C.W. Hampton and E. CLifford called "Planecraft" which shows a diagram, but gives no info as to how. I assume that the rounded corners would either be done on the grinder or on a stone, but probably the former, for fear of gouging the stone. So how big a round off is needed? A radius of 1/16 of an inch????? If I do that on the grinder, then do I hone that little rounded section on stones, or do I just hone the flat central part of edge of the blade?I tend to think I'll use the method that Cosman demonstrated, of pressing gently on each side, in turn, to yield a small cambering while honing on the final stone. However, I wanted to learn about the other method too. OK, now that we are on a roll, what are the planes that you would recommend after the initial #5 1/2? I am thinking the #4 1/2 smoother and the #8 jointer. OF course, if I have a 5 1/2, then it may make sense to go to something smaller than the 4 1/2, say the 4 to get something which better follows the contours of the wood. For the jointer, I called Lie Nielsen, and the rep said that he recommends the 7 over the 8, and that LN sells far more # 7s than # 8s, because the # 8s are so big and heavy. Any thoughts on the smoother and the jointer? I didn't mention a Low angle adjustable mouth block plane above. I might as well put one of those on my Christmas list, and see if one ends up in my stocking. Thank you for helping me make it through the kindergarten of hand planing.
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   PHM | Aug 07, 2007 09:14pm | #7

   Mel;

   Just one more item to ponder, the 4 1/2, 5 1/2 and 7 all use the same blade or "iron".  You would also have the option of using the same "High angle frog" in all of the above.  I have enjoyed the 7, and the 4 1/2 with, the HAF. There is quite a difference in the amount of tearout on some kinds of wood with the HAF.  The scrub is in a whole 'nother league.  Going from rough split to blanks that will be resawn and you are standing in a pile of chips is unreal.

   Have fun with your decision.

   Pat  

2. 
   pzgren | Aug 07, 2007 11:50pm | #9

   Mel,

       Cosman's method is the method I use for cambering plane irons (one of his DVDs is where I learned about it); just a little extra pressure on the outside edges. Also, you don't have to do all of the cambering at once: letting the camber "grow" with subsequent honings will allow you to sneak up on the degree of camber you find most useful for your plane, and the work and woods you're using.

     Rounding off: 1/16th inch radius (or thereabouts) would work fine for a smoother. This can be done on a coarse/medium/fine stone progression, or on a grinder or with a file, and clean-up on a (medium and then) fine stone. All that's really necessary is to break the sharp corner sufficiently that it doesn't leave plane tracks in your surface.

     And, just to complicate things even more, you can camber the iron and round the corners slightly.

     (See, I really ain't that much help, am I?)  :-)

      <<I am glad that my preparatory reading helped me to reach the conclusion on honing that you recommend: a slight cambering on a blade for a smoothing plane and a flat cutting edge on a blade for jointing and for the shooting board.>>

     If you take a gander at one of Charlesworth's videos (I forget which one), he advocates using a cambered iron for jointing, as well. So...there really is no "definitive" answer; just many techniques, all of which work well, once the user has become (reasonably) proficient with the technique(s).

     <<OK, now that we are on a roll, what are the planes that you would recommend after the initial #5 1/2?>>

     Here's my recommendation for a basic set of hand planes (acquire them as you need them for each of your projects):

        #4½  (#4)

        #5½  (#5)

        #8

        Low angle adjustable mouth block plane

        Standard angle adjustable mouth block plane

        Shoulder plane (sized best to fit your hand)

        Scrub plane (if you're going to do it the olde-fashioned way; otherwise, very much optional)

        Router plane

        Rebate plane

     With that plane set, there's really not too much that you can't do planing-wise; once you have a better idea of what you want to do with your planes, you can add specialised planes, as needed.

     I prefer the #4½ and #5½ over the #4 and #5, for reasons stated in my previous post, but listed them (in parentheses) because they are the more-commonly used sizes.

     As the LN people and another poster above mentioned, the #7 is more popular than the #8, largely because of weight. The #7 also has the advantage of being able to use the same LN high angle frogs as the #4½, #5½, and #6 (another plane I really like). I prefer the #8 for its length and width, but especially for its mass. That 10 lbs sheers through just about anything..... Others like a (somewhat) lighter plane for jointing.

     If you'll be doing a lot of smaller projects, you might take a look at the #3; it's small enough to comfortably and easily use on small boxes, etc., yet large enough to fit a full sized hand.

     Even though it sounds like you'll probably not do it at any time in the near future, I heartily endorse the several other posters' recommendations that you buy a vintage Stanley (Millers Falls, Sargent, etc) and tune it up. It really will teach you a lot about how planes are designed and how they work. (You can use your new LN as the template for what "right" looks like.)

     Anyway, here's a big shove over the edge to get you going down that slippery slope..... :-)

     I hope that this long, drawn-out, rambling missive will be of some use to you.

   .<!----><!----><!---->

   Tschüß!<!----><!---->

   <!----><!---->James<!----><!---->

   <!----> <!---->

   "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."

    

   -- A.C. Clarke

3. 
   gdblake | Aug 08, 2007 03:16am | #10

   You will get different advice from every plane freak out there (yes I am one), here's my two cents.  For your second plane I suggest the LN low angle rabbit block plane.  It does everything the adjustable mouth low angle block does and more for the same money.  You can't adjust the mouth, but it is tight anyway and works great.  It can also do duty as a shoulder plane.  For your third plane go with the LN low angle smoother, #164.  Get two spare irons for it, give one a 33 degree microbevel for a combined standard 45 degree pitch and give the other a 38 degree microbevel for a total 50 degree pitch.  With these three irons this plane can smooth just about anything.   For the really weird stuff I would suggest a Stanley #80.  They are less that $40 and work great.  Finally, go for a #7 or #8 as your fourth plane.

   PS.  I don't claim to be any more knowledgeable than any of the other guys.  I own a ton of planes, kept looking for the super smoother, for me the LN #164 was finally it.  I felt kind of stupid when it finally dawned on me that steeper and/or heavier doesn't always get the job done.  Sometimes the slicing action of the low angle pitch is the only thing that works.  

   Edited 8/7/2007 10:17 pm ET by gdblake

1. 
   9619 | Aug 08, 2007 05:57am | #11

   gd,
   Thank you for the heartfelt and well thought through message. I often tell newies on Knots that the biggest problem is sorting through a lot of responses and figuring out what to do. I have been around for a while, and I expected a variety of responses. The folks that made them, did it in a heartfelt way, just like you. I like passionate people, and people who base their answers on a good deal of experience. Where better to find those people than right here on Knots. I will make a electronic copy and a hard copy of all of these responses. I will tape the hard copy to my tool cabinet, and will refer to it regularly. Not having the experience you guys have had with a variety of planes, I will not remember what everyone said. But I will keep checking what folks told me as I gain experience. Your advice was quite interesting because it came to some different conclusions.
   Thank you very much.
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   nboucher | Aug 08, 2007 06:45am | #12

   Mel,I read your post after coming up from a couple of hours of using hand planes to flatten and square a piece of poplar about 75 inches long and 9 or so inches wide. I'm only a little bit ahead of your on the learning curve, I think, but with every piece I work on, my feel for and understanding of planing technique seems to improve. This is an instance where there is no doubt that experience is the best teacher. You can feel your skill and understanding grow with each session. Each plane makes a slightly different sound as it takes shavings, and each of these sounds is lovely to hear.For what it's worth, here's what I did. Like you I approached this whole hand plane business with a white collar salary and blue collar mentality. I did buy a LN low-angle block plane, but my other three planes are e-Bay and dealer purchases. (I think I wrote you about Brass City Records & Tools in another thread.) Anyway, I'm here to tell you not to abandon the old tool route. The selection on e-Bay is often quite good, and there is plenty of information available to make good decisions easily and to fettle and tune up what you get. If I was able to do it, anyone can, and you can save some serious money along the way. Best of all, every time I use those planes I daydream about all the things that craftsmen before me have made with them, and I love that feeling of stewardship, as I hope others will make lovely things with them after I'm gone.The old planes I bought are a #4, #5, and #7. The smoother and jointer have Sweetheart blades on them. The smoother was made in the early 1920s, the jointer probably in the late thirties, and smoother is from the early to mid forties. I sharpened the blades last night after work, and tonight, I used the jack to take off a lot of wood to get rid of the cup in my board, then switched to the jointer to get it flat, and finished with the smoother. For the edges, I started with the jack then finished with the jointer. I can't tell you how pleasurable this all was. It still takes me a long time to do all of this, and I sometimes end up with a thinner board than I'd planned to finish with, but I get awfully attached to each board as I work it. I read as many articles from this site as I could find about jointing and flattening and squaring with hand planes, and I did buy Chris Schwarz's two recent DVDs, Building Furniture with Hand Planes and Hand Scrapers: Understanding, Preparing and Using the Ultimate Finishing Tool (I did buy a couple of LN card scrapers and am waiting for my burnisher to arrive from Tools for Working Wood so I can get a burr on them and start to use them). But mostly I just dove in. I am deliberately starting with "forgiving" projects until I get better at all this. For example, the board I was working on tonight will be ripped to form the facing stiles for a set of built-in bookcases I just built in my house. They will obviously not have to be perfect to do the job, and they will be painted, but making them this way, though extremely inefficient, is a great way to learn how to plane by hand.Sorry about going on and on, but I thought you might like to hear how someone else is doing starting down the same path.Norman

2. 
   9619 | Aug 08, 2007 03:03pm | #13

   Norman,
   I enjoyed your message enormously. Thank you for sharing your experience with me. There are some things that are better learned from someone who just learned them than from someone who learned them 60 years ago. You have not forgotten the thoughts that were going through your head as you dove in the pool.I agree with you and with everyone else who said to start with some older planes and try them out. In 1968, when I got into woodworking, I bought some planes. I never used them. Last year, I tuned them up a bit. I flattened soles, insured that sides are perpendicular to soles, eased up the edges a bit after the flattening, and sharpened the irons. I still haven't used them. That is the next step. I have two other projects in the shop now, and the shop only has room for one project at a time, so I can't get the planes in to use for another few days.In 1968, I bought an old Stanley Bailey #4 smoother. I don't know how old. It has seen use but is in very nice shape. I also bought a Sears Craftsman Jack plane which is 14" long. It has still not been used, and is in the original box with the original booklet. Very clean (ain't that a shame). I also bought a Stanley #78 duplex fillester and rabbet plane because someone told me that I would have to cut rabbets. It is nice and flat and sharp and ready to see some use. It has had a good rest. I also bought two old Stanley low angle block planes. Last year I made a block plane. That was fun.So next week, I will begin making shavings with that set of planes. I thank you and everyone else who has shared experience and wisdom with me. It is well appreciated.
   Thank you.
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

2. 
   hammer1 | Aug 07, 2007 07:17pm | #2

   Just get the plane and start using it. The results you get in various situations will dictate whether you need to get extra blades or change sharpening. Don't over think it. It will take quite some time to learn to use a plane effectively. The finer points won't mean anything to you until you have some experience. Instead of spending on extra blades, I'd get a low angle block plane and a card scraper to go with the #5, that's if you actually want to build something.

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

1. 
   9619 | Aug 07, 2007 07:59pm | #4

   Hammer,
   You are a very practical person. Thank you for bringing me back to Earth. I find that I need to visit the planed and be re-partriated every once in a while.The reason that I "over think" potential purchases is actually more practical than you might think. My job may be white collar, but my mind is definitely blue collar. If I didn't spend a lot of time overthinking, I would make too many impetuous tool purchases, and end up with a divorce, a deep pile of debt, and a deeper pile of unused tools. I try to be a "tool user", not a "tool collector". So I continue to do woodwork, as my interests in woodworking morph. I try to make each of my projects have features that I have never tried before. For the past year, while rekindling my love of carving and actually doing it, my mind has been wandering toward handplanes and handsaws. I have been reading and learning, and am now very close to doing what you said -- getting a plane and getting a lot of practice with it. There are a few questions on my mind before I get a jack plane, and they are the ones that I have put out here. How about stopping by and giving me a lesson, and some feedback on my technique (or lack of it). Do you ever get near Washington, DC?
   Have fun, and thank you for reminding me to stay grounded in reality.
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Aug 07, 2007 08:59pm | #5

   Hi Mel,

   I spent the better part of 4 months lurking around in here, focusing on one tool that I wanted to master.  Yup, you guessed it, handplane(s).

   The consensus of many posts to was, get a user and tear it apart, fettle it as you wish (meaning to what degree of finish you want) and USE IT.  If it ain't right (which is everyones definition, to some degree), fettle some more til it works for you. 

   That process will teach you a bundle that you won't find in them thar books.  Lots of theory, experience and great advice, but until you actually do it, it's all just words on paper.  Just for starters the blade.  Get the Stanley working, then buy any of the upgrade blades.  The difference will floor you!

   And it's inexpensive too, as I'm sure you already know.  Oh, and I'm still learnin.

   Regards,

   Bob @ Kidderville Acres

    

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

   Edited 8/7/2007 2:00 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres

3. 
   mufti | Aug 07, 2007 09:06pm | #6

                At the risk of being taken for a SOF, why not go the whole hog and buy a few old but useable woodies? The irons will be thick and you can experiment with the crowning grinds to your hearts content. You may well find those planes are very satisfying to use, a wipe of oil and they glide along with a whisper. The soles are easily trued, you may buy an iron rust bucket plane for that purpose.

   Or.....

   
   

   ---

   Edited 8/7/2007 2:16 pm ET by mufti

1. 
   9619 | Aug 08, 2007 03:19pm | #14

   Mufti,
   Thank you for your advice on wooden planes, and for the article you posted. I tend to write messages which are too long, and am trying to cut back. As a result, when I posted my original message, I didn't give all of the relevant information. I do have some planes, but except for flattening the soles, etc, I have never used them. That is next. These include: an older Stanley Bailey #4, a Sears Craftsman Jack Plane that I bought new in 1968, a Stanley 78 that I bought new in 1978, two older Stanley low angle block planes, and a wooden block plane that I made last year. My next step, when I clear out the two current projects from my shop, is to make shavings with each of them, and to start fiddling with putting a bit of camber on the #4 blade. Ray Pine has introduced me to a Tool Collectors association near where he live. That will be a great place to find a couple of woodies. Maybe Ray will also give me some advice. Should I be worried about that? I am not a collector, but it is fun and a learning experience to spend some time with the collectors.Now, about the article you posted. I have read it a half dozen times. I can almost recite it, but I am not sure what it means. He makes the claim that all plane irons need to be rounded, but in different amounts. Is that true for jointers? Also, the author sounds like he is speaking ex cathedra (like the Pope), and making pronouncements about the blades for trying planes being the flattest, and not taking a cut unless it is necessary. However, he never explains why a try plane has the flattest blade. He reminds me of the people on Knots who say "Always buy the best, but don't explain what parameters, and what values of each parameter really define what is best. I will keep a printed copy of the article close by, and see if it is more understandable to me after I get more experience. It may well be one of those articles that explains things very well to people who already understand them, but not at all to someone who doesn't. This is somewhat akin to banks being willing to loan money to people who don't need a loan, but are unwilling to lend to someone who really needs it. :-) In any case, I now have some planes, a great deal of advice, some CDs, a few books, and the motivation to give it a shot.I thank you for passing on your wisdom.
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   mufti | Aug 08, 2007 06:12pm | #15

              Mel, not my wisdom but of Charles Hayward who wrote the Woodworker virtually single-handed in the war period. He was by all accounts a shy man and his writings are to the point. He is right you know, it is all too easy to plane on regardless of the fact that the surfaces achieved are satisfactory, I have done this many times seeking improvement to no purpose.

   My understanding is that all irons have a degree of curve including jointers. In their case the plane may be applied offset to remove a tad from one side on the other of an edge to level off before withdrawing the iron to take a final full central pass. Smoothers being the final tool on faces remove any trace of corrugations left by jacks, so only the corners are relieved to avoid tram lines.

   Nomenclature is the greatest cause of grief. We have try-planes or jointers which, if a bit shorter, are fore planes, middle sizes become jacks and diddy ones, smoothers.

   But all you have to do now is have fun and make lots of mistakes on the way. By the number of strokes taken and surprising new vistas unfolding, I always got more value than most out of my games of golf!

1. 
   9619 | Aug 08, 2007 06:24pm | #16

   Mufti,
   Thanks for letting me know it was Hayward wbo wrote that article. I have read elsewhere that even jointers have a degree of camber, and are used offset to take down a high side on the edge being jointed. But I get the feeling that a flat face for jointing is better than getting a face with a small hollow to it. I am guessing that the hollow is so small as to be irrelevant when it comes to clamping and gluing up the boards. Am I understanding this correctly?Not that this is a "contest", but is it your experience that most Neanderthals use a flat blade for jointing, or one with a slight rounding?Thank you,
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   mufti | Aug 09, 2007 08:10am | #17

              Mel, my Festool planer blade has a degree of camber, it works well. I do not know what others do, but imagine that since planes out of the box come with straight blades they are left that way.

   For jointing I try for flat and square and rub the joint if possible.

4. 
   mufti | Aug 07, 2007 09:23pm | #8

              You could follow this advice....

   
5. 
   chairmannz | Aug 09, 2007 02:14pm | #18

   Hello 9619,

   i find the best way is trying it out and what works for you you use, we are all different and have different standards.
   I use for my chair and fine furniture 4,5,6,7 ,110 and more but my favourite spiers 13.5".
   Trying the planes out is important because sometimes the same planes just plane different, why, because they can.

   Have fun and learn.
   I have the advantage that my hobby is my work and I love every minute of it
   Cheerio Bernhard.

1. 
   9619 | Aug 09, 2007 03:08pm | #19

   Berhnard,
   Thank you for your advice. It is good when your hobby is your profession. I will retire later this year, and I will have much more time for my hobby, woodwork. I am preparing for that now.Sometimes on Knots, a person asks a question, and is looking for a definitive answer. Sometimes a person wants to be told which tool to buy. That is not me. I like to make informed decisions. I like to become informed by finding out what experience that others have had, then I make my own decisions. I have learned a lot from the folks who have written to me. Where are you located?
   What type of furniture do you specialize in?
   Do you have a website?
   Thanks,
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   chairmannz | Aug 09, 2007 11:29pm | #20

   Hello Mel,I am living in New Zealand for the last 30 years and before that in Holland.
   I make furniture manly for other cabinetmakers 90 chairs and then the fine furniture that they can,t or do not dare to make.
   I am 57 and do cabinetmaking for the last 43 years.
   Because of broad band problems I do not have a web site but hope next year start one.
   Cheers Bernhard.

6. 
   gdblake | Aug 11, 2007 05:54am | #21

   Reading through everyones's posting has raised a question.  Without using a machine, how do you sharpen a plane iron without getting at least the hint of a camber?  I have been hand sharping planes for 30 years and can't avoid some camber.  I still mostly sharpen free hand, but now use the MKII jig with my more expensive tools (my hands aren't as steady as they were 10 years ago).  I switched from oil stones to water stones about 8 years ago (faster and I get sharper tools).  I flatten the stones constantly, but I have to work at not developing too much camber.  The slight camber on my jointer's iron has never kept me from getting tight butt joints (I don't think you can say that on the radio) when edge joining boards. 

   My high school shop teacher forced us to develop skill with a hand plane.  I never thought much about the science behind it, just did what my shop teacher beat into me.  He taught us to use the lateral adjuster to compensate for how we held the plane so that the cocked iron made up for any slight tilt to how we naturally held the plane.

   I read a great article by David Chatsworth somewhere and he explained why a slight camber actually helps you to get a squarer edge when jointing boards.  The camber has the same effect as making adjustments with the lateral adjuster that my shop teacher taught me.  The advantage is, you can use the camber to help take some wind out of the edge by changing which side of the plane you take the cut from as you push the plane forward.   

7. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Aug 11, 2007 12:51pm | #22

   Hi Mel,

   Not having read replies, the 5 1/2 or the #6 are the tradesman cabinetmaker's plane of choice, the #5 is a carpenter's plane/home handyman's plane, which is why there are so many of them out there.

   Sharpen one blade flat. Put a slight chamfer on the corner (1mm by 1mm or so)

   This will do all you ask of it now. Smoothing will leave light tracks that are easily removed by sandpaper.

   Cheers,

   eddie

   Edit: I use a #6 for 95% plus percent of all work I do.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 8/11/2007 5:56 am by eddiefromAustralia

1. 
   9619 | Aug 11, 2007 12:57pm | #23

   Eddie,
   Thanks for the practical advice.
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.