Replies

1. 
   mike4244 | May 21, 2006 12:47am | #1

   Your idea will work, with loose tenons or you can make a tenon on the rails. I would not buy a morticing machine,horizontal or vertical just for this operation.You could easily make the mortice with a router or a thru mortice on the table saw.

   mike

1. 
   Ragnar17 | May 21, 2006 09:24am | #2

   Mike,

   Thanks for the reply.  Do you happen to own a horizontal mortiser yourself?  As I stated in the original post, I don't have access to one of these, and really don't know how the machine works.  So far, I've had trouble finding any sort of detailed explanation from online vendors.

   Some basic questions:

   Does a horizontal mortiser rely on simple stops for defining width and depth of the mortise?  Can the machine cut in the z-axis (i.e. up and down) as well?

   I'm having some difficulty imagining how one could be used form a tenon on the end of a rail.  Is there some way to set up a template to do this?

    

1. 
   sdergar | May 21, 2006 04:14pm | #3

   I have used a horizontal mortising machine and would love to have one in my own shop, however they are quite expensive.  I am a big fan of mortising both ends and using floating tenons.  There are some that say that this can lead to failure in two area's rather than just one (live tenon has only one area glued vs two on the floating) but my comeback for that is if it is done properly (snug fitting tenon and enough glue but not too much) there should be no reason for it to fail.  Another plus for the horizontal mortiser is that you can actually see the cut happening (compared to a router table). 

     I have been thinking about making my own...motor, pulley and table, etc. but then time spent on making a machine is time not spent on woodworking!!!

    

   Steven

    

2. 
   mike4244 | May 22, 2006 03:33am | #5

   I use a router in a vertical table for a horizontal mortiser. I rarely use it, only built it because I had an old 1 hp craftsmen router that i had not used for years.The depth is controlled by the length of the bit. Lateral stops are just a block clamped to the table.

   I take a 3/16" bite at a time until I reach correct depth. Instead of adjusting the bit each time, I clamp extra fences to the vertical base so that the bit projects 3/16" or so. 1/4" luan plywood is about 3/16" full. After each pass I remove a piece.

   The height of the bit is adjusted by turning the base on a pivot bolt located at one end of the router base. The other end of the base is clamped when the bit is the correct height. I should have mentioned, the bakelite base that comes with the router was removed and a larger base screwed on.

   I have seen but not used a commercial horizontal mortiser. This particular machine could bore multiple straight holes for dowels ,or used as a slot morticer. This is not a homeshop machine, must cost in the thousands.

   I would consider just a router unless you have many uses for a machine.

   mike

    

1. 
   Ragnar17 | May 22, 2006 07:16am | #8

   I take a 3/16" bite at a time until I reach correct depth. Instead of adjusting the bit each time, I clamp extra fences to the vertical base so that the bit projects 3/16" or so. 1/4" luan plywood is about 3/16" full. After each pass I remove a piece.

   Mike,

   Thanks for the information -- incrementally removing pieces to increase the depth of cut is a great idea. 

   On this shop-made set up of yours, did you have a sliding table of any sort?  If not, what sort of hold-downs did you use?

   Thanks for the help!

1. 
   mike4244 | May 23, 2006 05:37am | #13

   No sliding tables, nothing really fancy. No hold downs, you have to be able to slide the work piece laterally.Though I could have easily used a holdown it has not been neccesary as of yet. You could fancy the the thing  up.I originally cut an arc 1/2" wide for a 3/8" bolt on the opposite side of the pivot bolt. Made a knob that tightened down on the bolt.Worked well for a locking knob for height of the bit.

   My neighbors labrador likes to visit me in the shop, she ran off with the knob when it fell to the floor. Been clamping the base with a c-clamp ever since. Some day I'll make a couple more,one for the router table and another for Sheba.

   mike

2. 
   Troy | Jun 09, 2006 05:31am | #25

   I have a labrador and she loves to pick things up weather they are hers or not. Plastic knobs and wood off cuts are as good as chew toys as far as shes concerned. Not that this has much to do with Horizontal mortisers:)Have funTroy

2. 
   Charles_Wilson | Jun 03, 2006 04:29am | #14

   How about the tenons? I am going to be doing a similar project and was wondering:1. How about the tenons on a router table? (pics would be great)2. How about the rabbets that the glass would sit in on the rails and stiles? How would you suggest to do that?Thanks,
   Chuck

1. 
   Ragnar17 | Jun 03, 2006 09:48am | #15

   How about the rabbets that the glass would sit in on the rails and stiles?

   Chuck -- I seem to recall that you were making storm windows.  Are they simple (plain) enough that you are not going to be using any decorative profile?  If so, you can machine the glazing rabbet quite simply by setting up a dado blade and fence operation on your table saw.  If you don't have a table saw with dado blade, it's possible to do it with a straight cutter on your router table with the fence set up in the same manner.  A typical glazing rabbet is 1/4" x 9/16"; smaller ones are about 3/16" x 1/2".

   How about the tenons on a router table?

   If you're just going to use the basic "fork tenon" at the four corners, I think the easiest way to form the tenons is with multiple passes with a radial arm saw, or with multiple passes over a dado blade in your table saw.  If you don't have either of those tools, you could still form the tenons with your router table.  Just make multiple "cross-cut" type passes.  Form one side of the tenon, and then flip it over and form the other side.  Remember, however, that the tenon cheek needs to be longer on one side than the other, however.  This is necessary to mate with the glazing rabbet on the stiles.

   The toughest operation will probably be forming the open mortise.  I've never done this personally, since I opted to use a "normal" mortise instead of a fork type.  (I cut the mortises with a hollow chisel machine.)  If you buy a tenoning jig for a table saw, you could cut the open mortise with a dado blade.  Or, if your router table allowed, you could use a tenoning jig on it (or devise some similar jig of your own).

   The biggest problem I see with using a router for cutting the open mortise is that you'll have to make about six or eight passes, (which will be very tedious to say the least) since I think you'll only be able to take off about a 1/4" each pass.

   Hopefully someone else here will have a better approach to cutting the open mortises.

    

    

2. 
   mike4244 | Jun 05, 2006 03:56pm | #17

   I use a tenoning jig I made. using the table saw. I center the tenon on the rail, make a cut then reverse the piece and make second cut. Then I use the miter gauge and fence to cut the shoulders.I set the fence with a clamped block for the length of the tenon,this equals the height you cut on the tenoning jig. The reason for the block, when making a pass the work piece passes the block before the blade. This prevents binding between the fence and work piece which will cause kickback.

   I noticed that Grizzly has a new tenoning jig for under $60.00, Delta has them and other manufactures too. Mine is shopmade, works good for me. I would not bother to make the tenons on a router table,though it can be done with multiple passes.

   Some people use dado blades, easy to do but some cleanup is usually required.

   The rabbets I do with dado blades. Sometimes the dado has to be cleaned up with a shoulder plane or you can use the router table and straight bit to clean it up or do the entire rabbet.Theres other ways,jointer with a rabbeting ledge, single blade in table saw,two passes one vertical the other horizontal.Even multiple passes with a single blade.

   mike

1. 
   Ragnar17 | Jun 06, 2006 02:32am | #18

   Mike,

   Have you ever tried the two-blade with spacer approach for cutting tenons on a table saw?  (If you haven't heard of it, you use the spacer to define the width of your desired tenon.  With two blades on the arbor, the cheek cuts are made in a single pass.  Afterward, you set up to make the shoulder cuts like you're already doing.)

   I've never tried the above approach, but it seems like it would work great and give you very constant results on the thickness of the tenon.

   On a related subject, do you have any suggestions for cutting the slot mortise on the stiles?

1. 
   mike4244 | Jun 06, 2006 05:15pm | #19

   I have used the two blade way making tenons,works fine. Make sure both blades are the same height, sharpening one blade may may a very slight difference.Hardwood plywood,or any consistently thick spacer works best.Make the spacer at least 1 1/2" in diameter.Washers are a little too small, unless they are large and the correct bore.

   mike

    

2. 
   Ragnar17 | Jun 06, 2006 06:51pm | #20

   Thanks for relating your experience with that, Mike.

   Do you have any suggestions for cutting the slot mortise?  Does a dado blade with a tenoning jig work fine?  Just seems like a lot of material to be removed.... but experience may prove otherwise.

3. 
   MikeHennessy | Jun 06, 2006 07:21pm | #21

   Ditto to what Mike4244 said. I use the outer blades of a dado set to get matched blades when cutting tennons. I use spacers made of Baltic Birch (1/2"), Masonite (1/4"), galvanized sheet steel (~.1") and cardstock (~.01"), each about 3" in diameter. Mix & match to get the exact width you want. Dado blade with a tennon jig works fine for the mortise provided it's not deeper than your blade's depth of cut.

   Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

4. 
   Ragnar17 | Jun 07, 2006 01:33am | #23

   Mike & Mike,

   Well I learned something new today.  I never would have thought of using birch ply for an oversized spacer!  I would have thought that such a washer would need to be machined to very close tolerances.  Good to hear from you guys that an inexpensive shop solution exists.

   And it sounds like both of you are saying that a slot mortise (kind of like a two-tined fork) is readily cut using a dado blade and tenoning jig on the table saw.  I was concerned that a ~2" depth of cut x 3/8" width was quite a bit of material for that type of operation.  So you can do it in one pass, no problem?  Any tips?

   Thanks for the info.

5. 
   MikeHennessy | Jun 08, 2006 03:20pm | #24

   The ply spacers work fine -- I cut them by clamping the blank to the drill press table over a sacrificial table, drill the center hole with a forstner bit and then, without unclamping, switch to a hole saw to cut the spacer out. I use the same method for the metal spacers, but use a twist drill for the center hole. You should remember that a 1/2" spacer will not give you a 1/2" tenon, but something less. How much less depends the set of the teeth on your dado blades. Use the thin metal and/or cardstock spacers to adjust to your desired tenon thickness. (Once I figured out the proper spacer combination for each common width of cut, I wrote a chart on the face of one of the ply spacers so I wouldn't have to re-invent the wheel next time.)

   I usually cut 1/4" mortises for this type of joint, since most of the stuff I do this on is 3/4" thickness for cab doors, drawer faces, etc.  At that width, I have had no problems doing it in one pass. Just make sure it's clamped tightly in the jig and go slow. I do not pull the piece back through the blade, but turn off the saw and remove the piece from the jig at the end of the cut. (Sorry if that's too basic, but you never know.)  I use a Forrest 8" dado set on a  contractor's TS with a zero-clearance plate. I don't recall if you mentioned what kind of wood you were planning to use -- I've used maple, oak & cherry for this type of door without problems.  If you think you need to use two or more passes, just do each pass in all the pieces, raise the blade and do the next cut in all pieces. That way, the cuts in all the pieces will be exactly the same depth. I usually make both the mortised and tenoned pieces a little long so both the tenon and the sides of the mortised piece stick out a bit long when the joint is fitted together, then trim them up with a sharp block plane after glue-up -- makes the joints cleaner. If you do this, your critical measurements are between the bottoms of the mortises on either end of the mortised piece and between the shoulders on each end of the tenoned piece.

   I find it's a pain in the butt to get the mortise and tenon exactly centered in the stock. So I just get it close, and then make sure to register the face side of each  piece against the jig. (I used to just mark the face side with a pencil mark, but I found that, in the flow of cutting a lot of pieces, I tend to forget to look for the mark. Now I put blue tape on the face side so that, if I can see it when I'm setting the stock, it screams "OTHER WAY, STUPID!)

   This type of joint requires a lot of blade exposed with no guard. That means you need to keep your wits about you at all times when doing these joints. Keep your hands firmly on the jig handles, well away from the blade and keep a safe, balanced stance, out of the path of the wood if it does take off. That's good practice for all table saw cutting, but especially important with 2" of dado blade running without a guard.

   Hope that helps!

   Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

6. 
   mike4244 | Jun 07, 2006 12:01am | #22

   I normally cut the mortise with a router,a dado blade will work only if the mortise goes all the way thru.Most older window sash use a through mortise,much easier to make and the tenon doesn't show anyhow.

   mike

2. 
   QCInspector | May 21, 2006 10:56pm | #4

   I don't have one myself (horizontal mortiser), but a friend has one on the backside of his 12" jointer. They do a good job of making "long holes" (the term my Danish father uses) but if the boards are large it needs outboard support to maintain alignment and prevent binding. A dedicated machine may not have that limitation.

   If your shop is not fully stocked then you might want to look at a WoodRat router jig instead of the horizontal mortiser. For similar money it will do the same plus a great deal more.

   http://www.woodrat.com/index.html

1. 
   Ragnar17 | May 22, 2006 07:30am | #9

   QCInspector,

   I was just looking at an online video of a Woodrat a few days ago.... interesting machine.

   I'll need to go back to their site and see if I can find any *specific* information on the set-up required for tenoning operations.  I'm assuming that the operator uses a tracing stylus (something similar to the MultiRouter approach), but I'm not sure.

   Have you ever used a Woodrat?

   Thanks for the help!

1. 
   QCInspector | May 22, 2006 08:36am | #10

   I have a WoodRat actually, but haven't got it mounted on the wall yet. If you spring for the demo DVD it will show you in detail how to do each operation for all common cuts that it will do, including mortises and tenon slots. You can also download a PDF of the manual (80 some odd pages) and read in detail from the WoodRat site.Basically to cut a tenon you clamp the board in the 'Rat' under the router. Lower the (preselected plunge router depth stop) cutter and feed the wood past the cutter from left to right. Pull towards yourself, then feed right to left. And end by pushing the router away for the last cut. The jig is marked with a pencil or you set up some simple stops for repetitive cutting.The mortise is cut by plunging a series of holes and then cutting sideways to complete the slot.The 'Rat' does not need a tracing system to cut the various joints that it makes. Having said that WoodRat is developing a system of them for release soon, to make it quicker (I assume) to do standard types of joints.Here are 2 links to get the DVDhttp://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=52369&cat=1,43000,52709&ap=1http://www.thecraftsmangallery.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?page=W/PROD/32-930This is a private site dedicated to the 'Rat' and will give you a lot of info.http://www.aldel.co.uk/

3. 
   gb93433 | May 22, 2006 04:18am | #6

   I did that very same thing you are wanting to do with some window sash and it worked very well. A horizontal mortiser is an excellent tool. I use it to mortise and drill holes. I have also used it to make keyhole slots in brass and aluminum.

1. 
   Ragnar17 | May 22, 2006 07:08am | #7

   I did that very same thing you are wanting to do with some window sash and it worked very well.

   I've got some specific questions for you about this if you don't mind....

   Did you happen to make double-hung windows?  The casement type seems to be fairly easy to figure out, but the biggest problem I'm facing right now is figuring out how to make the check rails (aka meeting rails) on the double-hung units.  The overall "height" (when installed) on the check rails is only about 1-1/4".  Because of this dimensional limitation, it seems tough to get an adequately sized tenon into the check rail.  How did you work that issue out?

   Also related to the check rails, did you machine them in one piece, or did you glue on the weatherstops (i.e. tapered pieces where the two sash meet) afterward?

   Simple question: did you cut the mortises before or after profiling your stock, and what size tenons did you use?

   Thanks in advance for the information!

    

1. 
   gb93433 | May 23, 2006 03:30am | #12

   I cut the copes first and then the profile last. At the meeting rails I cut slots in both the rail and the top of the side pieces of the sash making bridle joints at the meeting rails. I used loose tenons there as well. Normally I use 3/8" tenons and not more than 2.5" wide. If I need more width then I make more tenons and use less width for each one.

4. 
   RickL | May 22, 2006 04:54pm | #11

   Good choice! I've been using horizontal slot mortisers for over 25 years and have used many different models. I suggest you get FWW #141  and look at the slickest home made one I've seen for cheap. 

5. 
   gym | Jun 04, 2006 07:57am | #16

   I used to use a Shopsmith multitool which could be set up as a horizontal router using jigs.  Used it that way once or twice