Replies

1. 
   poorsh | Apr 15, 2004 09:03am | #1

   Hi Sunny

   You have asked the ultimate question. What is it worth? Most people can't afford the quality they would like! Unfortunately!! If you are going to build get an agreement before you invest the hours necessary.

   Cheers

   Mac

2. 
   Andrew | Apr 15, 2004 11:09am | #2

   Here's my advice, don't underestimate what you're worth. If you're good, then people will pay you a fair rate. If they aren't prepared to pay you a decent rate, then it's not worth your time. Spend that time with your family and making things for yourself. Also, if you price yourself too low then it contributes to the lack of respect that most people seem to have for the trades. If they think that it's easy, tell them to do it themselves and they can see how much skill is involved in making furniture.

   There really is an art to pricing though. It depends on your location and the perceived value of your products. Figure out your overhead, how much profit you want to make, and what other shops in your area are charging. The percieved value part comes with time and experience. 

   One more thing to remember, only elephants work for peanuts.

   Andrew

3. 
   Fingrs | Apr 15, 2004 04:17pm | #3

   People will pay more than you think they will, especially if they know you.  Family gets a little trickier...bartering works best there.

   Here's a suggestion:  go to some web sites and see if you can find a table of the approximate size and design as that you're going to make.  Like Thomas Moser's site or Stephen Swift's.  Maybe even Ethan Allen.  The last is actually a decent reference point, IMO, and I welcome a challenge from other Knots members.  See what the price would be from one of these sources and hold that in your mind.  If you take the EA route, you'll be pricing yourself a little low, but you'll still be financially sound.

   You should make a minimum of $50 per hour for your shop work, plus material costs (including waste...you can't calculate heating costs from burning the off-cuts).  Do not forget shop costs!  Blades and sandpaper are not free.

   I think your labor fee should be $1000-1200.  Guessing materials cost at $300, that puts your table's value at about $1300-1500 (ok, $1499.99). 

   Please do not underestimate the value of what you produce...you'll be the only one to do so! 

4. 
   Kell | Apr 15, 2004 04:17pm | #4

   sunny,

   FWIW I usually priced my work profit based on the next tool I wanted to buy when I first began selling pieces (I too have woodworking as an avocation that I love instead of a regular job.).  As my free time has gotten more valuable and less available, I now only build pieces for others that are commissioned.  They know up front what it's going to cost.  As a result, I don't have as many "jobs" but those I do are more toward the high end and high paying.  I figure my labor at $35 an hour.

   My wife prefers it, too.  She now has more of my time available for building things on her list.  :-)

   Don't feel badly about asking for the higher prices.  High quality work is worth it.  Go see Thomas Moser furniture if you don't believe it.  He employs over 60 people and his prices are at the high end.

   Kell

5. 
   jackplane | Apr 15, 2004 05:42pm | #5

   Sunny,

     Since this work is a sideline for you and not your main source of income, you can undercharge or charge a higher price than others, and perhaps get the higher rate.

   If this were your main business, that'd be another story.The one thing you cannot get back is time.So if you've underbid a job and feel pressured to speed it up by cutting corners here or there, you're doing yourself and your customer a disservice. Like others have said, you need to establish what your time is worth, which may or may not be the same as others.

6. 
   BG | Apr 15, 2004 06:58pm | #6

   Sunny,

   I have not attempted to sell anything so this thread is providing some great information.  Based on your description of hte 'hall table' my guess would be $600 is a fair price if unfinished....much more if finished.....and had lable attached that described the details of the piece (joinery, finish, woods, hand tooling,etc). 

   My sister believes something I made fo her kitchen would sell like hot cakes.  I then ask myself....how many hours would be required if I made 10 units....finished and unfinished.  I think that would help with the pricing issue. 
7. 
   aksophie | Apr 15, 2004 08:36pm | #7

   This is all meant to be helpful and not hyper-critical. Nevertheless:

   First....given the mishmash of wood species you used in the described piece, I don't think I'd pay $6 for it, let alone $600. Perhaps I'm off target here, a photo would help.

   Second.... are you sure of the 18 to 20 hours? That seem fast to me. If it is accurate and the workmanship is of high quality, then you are a good worker. Your carpenter career has probably served you well in this regard. If the time estimate isn't accurate, then re-evaluate.

   Third... assuming 20 hours, your $600 price is low. I make furniture and other custom fabrications for a living and I stopped charging $30 an hour a long time ago. If as a semi-pro you charge a low figure, then you undercut mine and other pro's market. Please don't do that. That said, I'm really not worried, there is always another project/client waiting.

   Fourth.... I agree with others who have said to compare your product with that of other established makers. And compare your price estimate with theirs. This is simple market analysis and is a part of every business.

   Fifth.... If you enjoy your carpenter career and steadily make $30 an hour, that is good. Continue with this work, at least for now, and perhaps start a furniture shop in the future. Make furniture now because it pleases you. Personally, I have long felt that if I could afford it, I would make things and give them away. I certainly would sooner give a piece away then sell it for too low to someone who could well afford to pay more. Life is simply too short.

1. 
   Sundstrom | Apr 16, 2004 08:18am | #10

   Hey Sophie,

   I apreciate your constructive criticism.  I'd lie to adress some of the things in your letter.  First the issue of various wood species.  It may be hard to imagine, but these four woods really came together nicely I'll try to get access to a scanner so I can post a photo.  The last thing I want to do is undercut the pros prices, I know how that is being in the construction industry.  I honestly did'nt keep track of my hours but I am reasonably sure that my estimate was within a few hours although it didnt include all the time I spent lying awake in bed thinking about it.  I am only able to work in the shop in short segments of time (2-3 hrs) with lots of time to think in between so my actual work time is maximized without any head scratching. 

   My goal in life is be well rounded and ultimately happy.  I'm still young but I don't think I would ever be happy to be tied to just one thing like wood working, or carpentry, or design.  I hope I can balance these things and I may have to decide that woodworking for a profit just does'nt fit for me.  Anyway I apreciate your letter, thank you.  Josh

1. 
   ian | Apr 16, 2004 04:10pm | #11

   I am only able to work in the shop in short segments of time (2-3 hrs) with lots of time to think in between so my actual work time is maximized without any head scratching.

   Josh

   that thinking time should be part of your overhead.  One of the other posters suggested that their dead time (overhead) equated to 10% of their time, in my experience it is more like 30%, with 20% considered a very good outcome.  Comparing to other industries, it's not uncommon for an accountant or lawyer to put in a 10 or 12 hours day, of which only 8 are billable.  Remember that when you go to the john that is not billable time, it is overhead, answering the phone is not billable.  Waiting for a glue-up to cure or a finish to set is unbillable time that, if you are making a living from furniture making, must be covered in your billable rate. 

   so what is a reasonable hourly rate?  If you charge $35 an hour, I figure you're earn about $30k to $35k a year, before tax.  I get this by allowing a 48 week year, you loose 4 weeks for Holidays (Christmas, Memorial Day, 4th July, etc), vacation, days when you're too ill to work or the kids are sick;  a 40hr week and assuming 80% of your work time is billable;   less health and other insurances;  less those hard to quantify expenses like materials in the shop, sand paper, tools, equipment maintenance, gas for the truck, etc.

   so $50 per hour would not be excessive.

   Of course, if you're doing it for the enjoyment, have a full time job that pays all the bills and essentially all you want to do is cover the cost of your tools and consumables different considerations will apply.  In that case I'd do it for not much more than the cost of the materials, BUT then I'd also be very choosey about who I gave the $1K+ gifts to. 

   Ian

1. 
   jackplane | Apr 16, 2004 05:02pm | #12

     In my previous post, I took the angle of your approach to this as a hobby, not a business.But since you state you may take this up as a business I thought I'd add what I found helpful when running a shop.

     First, since you're working for yourself assuming you pay taxes, you pay double the Social Security tax- 15% not 7.5%. Then you'd need to figure health care costs, again you take on full fare working alone. While you can depreciate machinery and other costs, factor in constant repair and upgrade of tools.

     I think most important  is to figure your salary from the back to the front; that is, what do I want to make in a year, how does that breakdown week to week and day to day.Compare yourself to what other shops make in your area, but I think it's almost useless to compare to Ethan Allen or another huge outfit that does production and not custom work. Custom work always takes longer and must be priced accordingly.

8. 
   Mackwood | Apr 16, 2004 01:58am | #8

   sunny,

   Sounds more like $1600 than $600!!!  Don't sell too cheap, it takes all the fun out the work you do for other people (family excluded),

   Regards,

   Mack

   "WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"

9. 
   notDusty | Apr 16, 2004 06:21am | #9

                              sunny ,

               With out knowing what size the hall table actually is , makes it hard to give you an estimate .  Unfortunately it does not go over well to say it took me longer than the other person so I need to charge more . Set a price , material plus hourly overhead plus hourly wage plus profit. One very important thing to understand is the difference from wages and profit , they are not the same thing .So profit is what is left after paying yourself your hourly wage say $35.00 an hour minus the materials and minus any overhead costs . Many overhead costs are hidden and not so obvious, gasoline and related expenses heating if you have it in the shop tool costs sharpening and the time involved designing and quoting . I personally take 10% of my time and charge it to my overhead .Based on a forty hour week lets say 4 hours is unprofitable or spent not being productive in the shop. The 10% may be conservative .Along with the actual overhead costs in this case sat $35.00 x 4 hours $140.00 a week . It is like a half a days wages or so.In this case you would need to charge at least $38.50 an hour plus hard expenses to earn $35.00 , but still no profit.

                                   good luck                    dusty

10. 
    PlaneWood | Apr 16, 2004 06:06pm | #13

    Find clientele that don't ask about the price!

    I once had a client in Tulsa that wanted 4 rolling wet bars and several rod and gun cabinets.  He just gave me a sketch of what he wanted and never asked about price.  He wrote me a $1000 check up front.  This was like 30 years ago in OKLA when a verbal promise and a handshake was all that was needed. 

    PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
    PlaneWood

1. 
   jimmyk | Apr 16, 2004 06:27pm | #14

   "Find clientele that don't ask about the price!"

   And how do you suggest he (we) find clients like that? I've done work for probably some of the richest people in Michigan. Most have called me back for more work, and I'm always asked about the price, some want an estimate immediately so they can "shop around" and sometimes I don't get the job because of my price.

1. 
   PlaneWood | Apr 16, 2004 08:12pm | #15

   Live in an ideal world??  :)

   Rich people don't go out shopping for furniture to often.  They hire someone to do the mundane tasks for them.  That's who you want to get to know.  Interior decorators for the rich and famous.

   Back then I built lots of office furniture for businesses where they approved the plans without discussing prices.  Several were law firms and my discussions were with their interior decorators.  But, I was recommended by their architect.  Always helps to know the right people. 

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood

11. 
    RevTed | Apr 16, 2004 09:11pm | #16

    Check this site for some price comps.

    http://www.guild.com/servlet/Guild/ArtItemSearchResultsPage?query=disciplineCode%3D6&unit=0&nav=furniture&kind=submit&qlp=&qhp=&qmnh=&qmxh=&qmnw=&qmxw=&qc=categoryId%3D266

1. 
   Miami | Apr 18, 2004 06:22pm | #17

   Sunny, that link might cheer you up considerable - one of those tables' makers is asking 2.5 times the proposed price of your table, just for their shipping cost - $1500 for the shipping and crating alone, of that harewood-veneered demilune. 

   Now, I'm not sure how many $12,500 hall tables he's moving through the pipeline, but I will join (what seems to be) the majority here and opine that $600 could easily be well under the value of the work.  Again too, it's hard to gauge without a photo.

   How would you WANT to do this for a balance of pleasure and profit?  You might find that you have more fun, and make almost as much money, building pieces on spec than doing commissioned work.  'Course then, you have the additional problem/cost of getting the pieces in front of the public.

   Clay