I am thinking of treating myself to a set of Japanese chisels soon. I see they hollow out the backs of the chisels to facilitate flattening the backs. This technique would seem to shorten the working life of the chisels dramatically.
The pictures in the Japan Woodworker have the hollowed out area 1/4 inch from the front edge of the chisel. It would take a very long time to use up 1/4 inch of steel but at 60 dollars each, not long enough.
Anybody bought chisels from the Japan Woodworker?
Replies
Woodman, check out the Japan Woodworker's "Resource Center" on their website -- there are a couple of articles about care and sharpening of Japanese chisels. You work on the back of the chisel each time you sharpen and the 1/4" (or so) flat keeps riding back with you. So you will get more than 1/4" of use out of it!
I did check out their resource center and read how to sharpen their chisels. I must admit I do not understand how a chisel with a hollowed out back can be made perfectly flat.I guess I will find out when I finally buy a few chisels. I do consider myself highly skilled in sharpening so that will not be a problem.
Hi Woodman,
Just a little bit of back flattening each time you hone will keep the flat coming back. Don't over-flatten.
I have japanese chisels (blue steel bench chisels from the Japan wood worker)and am happy with them. As you sharpen them you also flatten the backs this then gives you more steel to work with. I have seen Japanese chisels that have only an inch or so left and the owners still use them. The other thing I have noticed is that they are a little bit more brittle than a western chisel so you need a bit steeper bevel for hardwoods. The edge seams to get a little tougher as you use them more and resharpen them. Of course this is all annicdotal but I hope this helps.
Troy
Ditto. I too, have the blue steel chisels and have experienced the brittleness as well. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
maybe if I kept the edges nicley rounded like my old marples they would not be as brittle ;) anyway they seem to get better the more I sharpen and use them. Troy
I was squaring up the edges of a mortise and twisted the chisel just a hair and I heard a sickening 'snap', and a significant chunk broke off one of the corners. I don't own a grinder, and I still haven't gotten all of that chip out of the edge. I do like the balance of the chisels. I don't like having to set the hoops when I get the chisel and I don't like the brittle nature of the steel at the edge. But they do hold an edge very well. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
I found an easier way to set the hoops, I take a socket from my mechanics tool set that the opening is just big enough to cover the hoop with out touching the wood and set the blade end on a block of soft wood and use a hammer on the socket to set the ring this way I can force the ring down evenly. Anyway the britleness of the edges can be an issue. Troy
What ever you do, do not buy one of those high speed grinders with the grey wheels. They are only good for axes and lawn mower blades.I have a slow speed grinder, 1725 rpm and 8" white wheels, a real pleasure to use. No more dipping chisels in water after 1 second of grinding or bluing the edge.
Every woodworker needs to try a good set of Japanese chisels.
Excellent tools! I currently don't own any but are on my wish list for tools to reacquire (one day I'll bore ya'll with my sob story of how I lost my shop)
Try http://www.craftsmanstudio.com. He carries Matsumura at a good price.
And yes don't sweat the hollow back. Read up and you'll figure 'em out quick and learn how to use them. I believe one of David Charleworths books had a good article or 2 on Japanese chisels I found most informative.
HTH
10saw
Thanks for the link, always good to compare tools and prices from different sources.
Woodman,
I have owned and used several Japanese chisels I purchased from the Japan woodworker store some years back. So far they are the best chisels I own and have stayed sharper longer than any others in my possession.
Another excellent source for Japanese chisels is http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com. I purchased my Nishiki Dovetail chisels from them, and they are excellent quality. They also carry several other several other makers. You can go to the website, and there will be a nice tutorial about the various types of steel, as well as the forging process of the steel, so you an decide which type best fits your needs.
Jeff
They seem to have very reasonable prices for sets of chisels. I will do a lot of research before I buy a set. That is part of the fun of tool buying to me. I am glad I have several places to look at Japanese chisels now, instead of only the Japan woodworker.
Woodman,
My Japanese chisels are the ones that Woodcraft sells. I've been using them for about 4 years and have been very happy with them.
At $25 - $50 per chisel, they are not top-end tools by any stretch of the imagination, but they are good solid workers; they do what they're supposed to do, without any drama or problems.
At Rc 63 or 64, they are a bit harder to sharpen than softer chisels, but they also hold the edge longer. As several other have mentioned, the hollow back does not matter, if you sharpen them "properly."
IME the only things you really have to worry about are chiseling on/around knots and prying with them. Since they are so hard, they tend toward brittleness, and that makes it very easy to break a chip off the edge, if you're not careful. On and around knots, I cut slower/shallower with softer mallet taps; that seems to work fine. Prying: I just don't use my Japanese chisels for any kind of prying cuts -- I use a softer chisel when I need to pry the chips away from a board.
No experience with Japanese chisels from Japan Woodworker, but I have bought a number of other tools from them. All have been very satisfactory, so I would expect that the chisels would be, too. Their customer service is also very good.
Beste Wünschen auf eine Fröhlichen Weihnachten und ein glückliches Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
James
Beste Wünschen auf eine Fröhlichen Weihnachten und ein glückliches Neues Jahr!
Thanks, and best wishes for a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you, also!!
Jeff
I mainly have the usual Stanley and Marples chisels, but one chisel I have does not have a name on it but outperforms all the others by far. I use it for all my critical work if I can but it is 1 1/4 wide, too wide some times.
I am assuming the Japanese chisels will be as good or better than my best chisel. I do a fair amount of mortise and tenon work so I am looking forward to using the best tools I can find.
I switched to the Japanese pull saws long ago and never use the western saws any more. The Japanese know a thing or two about woodworking.
I live in Japan and have been using Japanese chisels for some time now. I buy mine from the guy (salesman) who stops buy my shop. They are made in Nigata Prefecture, hand made and considered chisels for professionals, only a few places hand make them now. The craftsman are all getting on in years and the young people have little interest in these "arts".
When I buy them I have to set the hoop and sharpen them. I've bought others from local hardware stores, hoop set and sharpened, not bad chisels but the professional ones I think I'll continue buying. On the plus they feel better, on the minus they come in widths based on the Japanese measurement system (bu, sun, etc.) not millimeter or inch. So if I want to match sizes with different chisels (e.g. mortise and paring) I have to buy both. Though I can special order mm sizes at an increase in price.
They hollow out the backs not to facilitate easier flattening of the backs but because it's a softer steel so if kept flat during use they would separate, ding, dent, and stick. The softer steel absorbs the shock thus they can use a harder steel on the blade. When I say soft steel I mean not as soft as lead but hit with a hammer it will show.
Each time I sharpen I work the back only to deburr. Only when the line between the soft steel and the hard steel gets close (3-4 mm) do I work the back. To do this I use a corundum powder and a steel plate.
How long will they last...I have a number of types, Shinogi nomi (Finishing Chisel), Tsuki nomi (Paring Chisel), Usu nomi (Thin Chisel), Mukomachi nomi (Mortise Chisel), none with appreciable wear, I was given a set of Oire nomi (Butt chisels) by my wife's grandfather (since deceased) who used them for years and they have little appreciable wear. The key is to know how to use and care for them. If I flattened the backs of my chisels aggressively every time I sharpened them they'd show a good bit of wear. I don't and they don't.
I just came back from traveling, sorry for the long delay in responding. I would assume the craftsmen hand making chisels are in decline, in the US, most wood shop classes in the schools here are a thing of the past. At some time in the future, furniture will only made by machine and probably made of plastic. I will enjoy using high quality, hand made chisels on my next project. What are the prices for chisels in Japan, here they run $60-$80 dollars each and also much higher. Some sell for $300, the laminated ones. I do not know who would spend $300 on a chisel except a collector.
No problem with the delay, hope you had a good travel.Chisel prices: Here's an approximate of what I pay. It's all in Yen, and for an approximate dollar amount I multiply by 116 (The dollar/yen exchange hovers around this amount)Chisel type PriceShinogi nomi (Finishing Chisel) 3800
Tsuki nomi (Paring Chisel) 3800
Usu nomi (Thin Chisel) 3800
Mukomachi nomi (Mortise Chisel) 4000
Oire nomi (Butt chisels) 3000I've never asked about a $300 chisel. I'd guess a famous metal worker's chisel would go for that amount. But you're right, I can't justify spending that on one chisel, I'd be worried of dropping the thing.
Woody, as a younger man I visited Japan in the late 70's to mid 80's on business as a senior executive for THE watch company. My friends who were tasked with careing for the visiting fireman were delighted that Pat san didn't want bimbos and booz at the end of our business day -only good food and wood tools, and they took me to the best.
I was using pull saws, planes, a beautiful stainless rafter square and 4 chisles long before most ww knew of them. Two chisles were the fish hook type,one curved one straight, to clean up a mortise. The other two were very small and low profile to clean up dovetails. They keep an edge forever but are very hard and very, very brittle and tolerate NO torque across the edge. I pressed too hard on the flat with the @ 1/4" and watched a chip the size of a fingernail cutting pop out of the center of the edge. That got me a session of several hours on a sunday afternoon on the delta wet stone and my water stones before it was right.
I think that you get a quality set of bench and mortise chisels (cherries, taylor,etc) and some specialty Japanese ones . To stock your whole larder is very costly and unnecessary. Just one guy's practiced opinion. Go and enjoy. All the best, Paddy
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