All,
I made a 20×24″cabinet of poplar with raised panel doors and finished it with paint. I hung it about a month ago up in the bathroom. Everything was flat and to my liking. Last week I noticed that the left door on non-hinge side is tilting outward about 1/16″ at the top…the bottom of the door has not changed. I cannot see the who, what, where or why this is twisting….any suggestions for how to fix ??…
Replies
It's moving because it's hung in the bathroom.
Solid wood cabinetry in a bathroom has always been dicey.
Not much you can do now but attempt to ventilate the bathroom better - leave door open during showers and that sort of thing.
You might (stress the word might) have gotten better performance using quartersawn or riftsawn stock.
It's also possible that you did not cut enough of an allowance for movement in the solid panel and the panel is pushing on the frame. I'd have used a strong eighth, if not a strong (ish) three sixteenths all around with space balls to prevent panel rattle - basically the panel is suspended by the space balls or other foam material. I'd also have used the narrowest stiles and rails that the design would allow.
cstan,
I should of never put it in the bathroom over the toilet...guess where my eyes focus when I'm just hanging around in there so to speak.
I was careful about the fit but did not know about the quartersawn aspect. Why would minimun rail and stile be important? thanks
Without seeing the door, my best guess is that one or more of the components of the door's frame have warped slightly as the wood gained or lost moisture to the surrounding air.
To minimize the chances of this happening, a door frame should always be made from carefully selected quarter sawn wood that has been allowed to acclimate in the shop for a few weeks before it is used. You will probably find that the door will get better and worse with seasonal changes in the relative humidity.
Other than making a new door,or installing a latch to pull it flat, there isn't a lot you can do to correct the problem since the wood will continue to move as the seasons change. Other than epoxies there is no wood finish that will effectively protect the wood from gradual gains and losses in moisture.
Having a different finish on the door's inside from what was applied on the outside could cause problems with uneven moisture levels in the wood that would lead to warping. In that case, refinishing the doors with the same finish on both sides would correct the problem.
John W.
JohnW,
I suspect your correct in your conclusion that the wood is warping. I was quite careful about the joinery (m&t) as well as adequate space for the raised panel. However, the back panel is 3/8" thick and I had to paint both sides because painting one side would cause the wood to warp...and only painting the other side would allow it to flatten again. Oh well, live and learn
Make a door with something besides Poplar
We build RP doors all the time for bathrooms. Poplar is OK for face frames but pretty unstable for door panels.
If you are doing paint grade use maple stile and rail with a MDF panel.
From someone that builds Cabinets and Doors every day
Ron
Edited 1/11/2005 6:11 pm ET by Ron
Ron,
Thanks, it's good to know how the professional does it. I created this thread because I figured if this happened to the professional it would drive them crazy....now I know...
BG ,
I like Ron make cabinet doors on a regular basis, and have for many many years. For paint grade, mdf panels are the way to go for stability and ease to shape and they take a finish smoother then any wood . You have recieved much good solid advice in the above posts , however you did not mention what type of hinges you used , unless I missed that , my bad if I did. You asked how to adjust the door , because it was out about a 1/16th . I have had many doors that needed a little tweak to make them look more perfect. If you used euro hinges by all means use the for and aft or in and out adjustment to correct the problem . If you used self closing cabinet hinges you can usually tweak them a bit also. Remember how in the old days when a car door was sprung they would put a 2x4 in the door and give it a little slam , to adjust it , well the same is true with some cabinet hinges . If the top is out then you put a thin piece of wood in the bottom or opposite depending on where the warp is.It will cause the hinge side to move slightly away from the face of the cabinet a bit , but it will even out the door. That is where the euro hinges are worth their weight in gold so to speak .
good luck I hope this will help dusty
Dusty,
Let me admit to you and others I built this cabinet for something to do and because I had the poplar laying around. Going in my objective was to have fun, practice joinery and learn from the process...my excuse was to provide a cabinet that could support the growing quantity of hair washes, rinses, and who knows what else...whew!!
There are no face frames and simple(cheap) butt hinges are morticed in to the doors and case sides. The doors are about 10"x20" with about 6" wide raised panels..they are made from single pieces of wood. The rails and stiles are 3/4" but the raised panel is 1", I babbited the back but wanted the panel to stand proud of the stiles. The slight twist that is occuring could be comming from either rail or stile as they are not quarter sawn (something I've learned not to do again) or could be from the panel. I think I'm hearing from you guys there is not much I can do...except next time choose different stock....
Sight down from the top of the door and look for twist. That will definitely make that corner move, although 1/16" isn't a lot. More than you wanted, though. So now that the "something to do" and "learn from the process" part is working, if you want something else to do, you could strip the finish off and check the grain direction and make a new part to replace the one that's causing the problem. This will also give you some repair experience.Are you having fun yet?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Highfigh,
If you speak to my wife...I'll have you arrested for distrubing the peace....lol
BG, remove the bottom hinge screws on the frame , fill with match stick and glue the holes.
When dry,reposition the hinge leaf toward the outside,
about 1/16" (+ or -)(You can tape it temporally and try the door for fit)
When satisfied with the fit,
drill ONE new screw pilot hole and
install ONE screw in the hinge.
That will bring the knob side even and plumb with the frame.
If it looks better, attach the rest of the screws.
If not, wear shades whilst 'hangin' out. Stein.
Edited 1/12/2005 9:02 pm ET by steinmetz
Steinmetz,
The shades are a good idea, altough this is a master bathroom and a birthday suit is the usual attire...once in a while some leather and chains too....lol
I see what your saying about the hinge adjustment...it makes sense, thanks. The way my hinges are mounted I can use some shims...and save my straight grained hardwood toothpicks.
Hey BG ,
Stein has got it , now that we know what type of hinges you used. Yes , relocate the one hinge a bit to straighten it out a bit and walah . I may upset some by saying this but there is a myth that has been suggested as truth in a few of the above posts. Namely the fact that the door frame parts MUSTbe made of quarter sawn lumber . Only a few things could be further from the truth . Any professional cabinet makers will testify that of the thousands of doors we make in a lifetime in most cases a small percentage of them are Q sawn , anyone else out there that would confer and help to de mystify this suggestion ? Frame and panel type doors whether recessed panel or raised , are generally very flat and cause little trouble with warpage. Lastly the possibility exists that the the cabinet may be racked to a less then flat wall, so shiming behind the back edge of the cabinet may help to eliminate the problem .Start using euro hinges they will make your life much easier.
good luck dusty
dusty,
Racking from an unflat wall is an interesting possibility. I used a french cleat to mount the cabinet and I guess it's possible that a bow in the top of the cabinet could be the result of a moving back panel. I married the cleat and back panel such that the cabinet would stand proud of the wall by an 1/8" and I did put one small screw through the back panel into the cleat .
I'll start by shimming the hinge and check things carefully. thanks
Dusty,
I was one of the posters that absolutely believes in using quarter sawn wood for raised panel frames. Is it a "must"?, no it isn't, but it is a sign of that I understand the way wood works and that I am willing to make every effort to build the best furniture possible.
Being that it costs nothing more to use quarter sawn, except maybe a few minutes of extra time to set the quarter sawn boards aside when sorting through the lumber pile, I can't see why anyone wouldn't use it.
In addition to being more stable, the simple narrow grain of quarter sawn rails and stiles contrasts beautifully with the flat sawn grain of the door panels.
I just took a short browse through "Solid Wood Cabinet Construction" by Franz Karg. The book is a showcase of some of the finest contemporary cabinet work I have ever seen. In detail shots where you can make out the wood grain, the door frames all appear to be quarter sawn, as are any other elements that need to be especially stable.
I consider my learning about the advantages of using quarter sawn wood to be one of the turning points in my education as a cabinetmaker.
John W.
Edited 1/13/2005 1:07 pm ET by JohnW
Hi John ,
I respect you and your posts in most every case I agree with your logic even when it may not be accepted by some . Let me try and put this in perspective please. I absolutely love Q sawn wood and have used it along with Rift sawn on many of my Oak jobs. Q sawn was used for antique table tops for the beauty of the grain and its stability. It is more stable at least for a table top and for most all applications. When doing a job I may need to make 70 or 80 doors for a home . When the job is not a Q sawn spec job , there is a good chance there won't be that kind of footage available in the unit we get. Therefore to use it I would have to purchase it as such . Q sawn does cost more then flat sawn usually a few bucks a foot more. When I use flat sawn Oak I generally use plain sliced veneers for finished ends and recessed door panels. They do not actually look alike or match Q sawn IMO . So to say it costs nothing more is a misleading statement. Agreed Q sawn is beautiful and great to work with , and on a fine piece of furniture our efforts deserve the finest materials available , it takes no more time to use the best materials , maybe less time actually.I am not sure if you are a cabinet maker by trade or have become one in retirement it really is not important but frame and panel doors ,when stable relatively flat and straight materials are used do not have much problems with warpage.I can honestly say I have never had to replace a door because of warpage in the last 25 years and a heck of a lot of doors have passed through my shop. Gosh in this particular case we are talking paint grade the beauty would not be taken advantage of and to be quite honest if a high gloss was used the grain may telegraph through the paint on a highly figured wood , think about it . I hope this makes some sense to you and others.
dusty
Nobody said door parts MUST be made of QS stock.
However, if one knows that the unit is destined for a bathroom it's not a bad idea.
Stein has a good suggestion.
Also, because this is paint-grade you have more options on the repair. Take #4 piano wire, bend into a U shape,, drill holes in the stile ends and rout a groove in the rail and insert. It helps if the wire is offset to counteract the warp.
From my brief scan of you post/replies, I read that the cabinet are 2 doors wide with but hinges. You can remove the hinges, plug the holes with toothpicks/glue or just wooden plug. Then move the hinges slightly. Split the difference between both dors. Another quick fix it to tweek the cabinet by applying a shin in one of the corners when the cabinet touches the wall. This creates a twist in the cabinet and will ultimately rack the doors also. I'd would suggest you try the latter first. if it doensn't work, then try plan b, c, etc.
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