Replies

1. 
   LouisTorrans | Jul 26, 2002 07:43pm | #1

   Howdy medic,

   I've finished MDF with Zinser's (sp?) white pigmented shelac (alcohal base). Lowe's carries it and I've been very impressed with it. You can simply roll it on, let it dry for an hour or two and give it a good sanding to slick it up. One more coat and another light sanding and you have a very good base to paint almost anything onto. It dries pretty fast and hides the brown color of MDF completely. We did a couple of projects with MDF and Zinser's which an artist was going to do the final colors. Worked very well and the artist's work turned out quite nice.

   Good Luck!

   Louis T.

1. 
   Medic583 | Jul 26, 2002 10:42pm | #2

   Hi Louis, and thanks for the reply :)

   Two other questions though, is the shellac a two part mixing thing, or can you buy it pre-mixed and ready to go, and does it act like an epoxy (gives a hard undercoat)? 

   Sorry, only thing i have "finished" so far is the drywall in the house with one of those paint sticks :) and put down an epoxy flooring (with multi coloured paint chips in it, covered by urethane).

   Thanks again :)

   Dennis

1. 
   DonStephan | Jul 28, 2002 02:34am | #3

   Jeff Jewitt now offers water bourne lacquer in various tints - even has color chart just like the paint stores. http://www.homesteadfinishing.com Another way to get the desired sheen, and add depth and protection to the color, is to top coat with compatible clear finish in the appropriate sheen.

   When I had to finish mdf in off white, I sealed much of the mdf routed edges a couple coats of clear shellac. Eventually felt it was a waste of time. Next time I'll try using the appropriate sealer for the water borne lacquer after intensely vacuuming all the dust off the routed mdf edges.

1. 
   GJMID2 | Jul 28, 2002 06:22am | #4

   Don - I have finished a lot of MDF.  Molding, raised panels and assorted cabinets.  The primer is the important first step--any of the solvent based will do better than a water based(I may just be old fashioned).  Any machined edge will need two coats to get a surface good enough for a gloss finish.  Any quality solvent based enamel will work--laquer based will work also......I have had good luck with Pratt & Lambert enamel--sprayed, wet sanded with 600 paper & polished to desired sheen with an auto type rubbing compound followed with a polishing compound.  (dupont 7 rubbing compd & polish compound works well.) Any questions please let me know...

2. 
   LouisTorrans | Jul 29, 2002 10:11pm | #9

   Hey medic,

   If you haven't already done something, long weekend...!, Zinser B-I-N white pigmented shellac is ready to go as is. Someone mentioned that denatured alcohol is the  thinner and it is but I haven't found it needed it. A little shouldn't hurt if you feel the need. Hope everything works out!

   Good Luck!

   Louis T.

1. 
   Medic583 | Aug 17, 2002 08:50pm | #10

   Sorry for the delay in getting a posting back on here, but been a busy month of August for work (EMS).  The week i had off to finish my cabinets, well, holidays got interrupted by a partial evacuation of our town, multiple accidents, you name it...  Needless to say, the cupboards are still awaiting my presence in the shop,..  Have to learn how to hide out when on holidays :)

   So, an update for all those who have taken the time to help a rookie out:

   I went into our local building supply stores, as well as the Automotive body shops in town to see what they thought as well (small town).  Needless to say, everyone gave me funny looks when I asked the same question i did on here.

   After reading the replies (thank you everyone!), I went back to our local building centers, and low and behold, we have the Zinsers Shellac primer available (small town in the middle of nowhere :), and not too many questions like this from what i hear, most of the retailers had no idea what would work for this, esp. when dealing with water based products).  Following the suggestions, and right after jumping up and down for a few minutes :), I then asked if they had a hard finish to go over it. 

   I had also taken a look at Don's  and Rev Ted's suggestions of the homestead and Schrueder products, but it is extremely hard to get anything but the retailers brands here in town (retailers sell their own, such as home hardware, walmart, and only a few other products such as pitsburg, zinsers, etc..)

   Ha, the looks i had been given a month ago came back again,...confusion,...:)

   The clerk was set to sell me a varathane coating (something with the words...plastic look...on the label), when i noticed the one thing it wouldn't go over is shellac.

   Opps, so went back to the automotive store, and they are going to try a few test pieces of different paints for me (they figured it was solvent based, so shouldn't be a problem).  We talked about the difference between the paint on a vehicle and on wood, and he mentioned that automotive paint has a hardner in it.  Good or bad,..might end up getting chips instead of little dings and bruises in it.

   So, have the Zinsers Shellac primer and getting ready to prime them (with the sanding coats which was recommended).

   Last questions :)

   Household enamel. laquer or an Automotive Enamel to go over the Zinsers Shellac? 

   Pro's, con's, suggestions,... (also, the store pulled out the varathane plastic colours stuff, and didn't see that mentioned on here....wondering why varathane or urethane would not be good).

   Thanks again everyone, you are a great resource (told the stores about this site, and suggested they visit it once in awhile), and I really appreciate all the help.

   Dennis :)

1. 
   fourquarter | Aug 22, 2002 02:17am | #11

   I asked a similar question a few months ago and really wish I'd gotten such great advice. So i'll throw my thoughts into the fray regarding your choice of pigment.

   I built a somewhat contemporary cofee table that I wanted to have that slick almost plastic look. I wound up finishing each piece before assymbly which required a grewat deal of masking the surfaces that would later be glued up, etc.

   I used an oil based enamel, and while the project came out looking okay, it took forever to complete. Two or three coats on each side of each piece, sanding, dry time etc.

   I would highly endorse the previous post regarding Jeff Jewitt's Homestead site. Use a tinted lacquer and you will be so happy.

   I found it far easier to spray than oil, it doesn't tend to seep into masked areas, and it dries within minutes if not seconds.

   Best of luck.

   KH

2. 
   HowardAcheson | Aug 22, 2002 08:00pm | #12

   Just a word or caution, automotive finishes generally do not do well when applied to wood or wood products. They dry too hard and are brittle. Wood needs a finish that has some flexibility because the wood, even MDF, has some seasonal movement. Auto products are designed to be used on substrates that do not move.

   I don't know what you are trying to accomplish but if you want a solid, opaque finish there is little that beats a good oil based enamal. There are also two part urethane paints made for the boating trade that work very well also but they can be rather dangerous to use if you don't take the proper precautions.

   Finally, spraying a good finish is not something you just deside to do. Spraying must be learned. In the shop I was involved with, new finishers spend a couple of weeks practising on cardboard boxes before they did anything important.

3. 
   Medic583 | Aug 23, 2002 02:14am | #13

   Thanks for the words of wisdom Howie.  Never even considered the movement of the MDF (although we had talked about putting some flexing agent in the paint, similar to what they do when painting plastic parts on cars).

   As i'm new to this, i'll try and describe what i'm looking for a bit better.

   I've seen some painted cabinets in the past, in which the paint seems soft, and can leave some good sized marks from items sitting on the same area for too long.  I was thinking along the lines of piles of plates, sitting in a warm cabinet, and when i got around to pulling them all out for that "once in awhile" event that they all would be out at the same time, I didn't want to find ridges where they had been sitting. 

   The other reason, sorry it is so simple :) , but I loved the paint job on my 94 S-10 4x4 (Bahama Blue), and would like to go with something similar for the cabinets.  Something about that gloss, hard finish...

   The first thing I rejected when looking at the european style cabinets, was the laminate look.  I really can't stand the look of the edge banding, etc...  I think the inspiration for all this came from a store in Maui, where they were selling hi-end cabinets, gloss colours, simple rounded edges, modern, simple, but striking, and needless to say, way out of my price range :)

   As I am living close to the middle of nowhere (northwestern Ontario), I am pretty much limited to whom i can use for resources for information on how to go at this.  Our 2 building centers seem to be scared of my question, and the auto parts store seemed to be the only one who could come up with a possible solution (he had seen  a t.v. show on exact same subject, and is curious enough to help out).

   Ha, you are also right on with regards to spray finishing being pretty much an art,...and being bit of a perfectionist, I seem to be going through quite a bit of test pieces just getting the hang of the spraying of the simple things :)  Whew, it looked so simple in the books :)

   It is something I am working hard at, but if it comes down to it, i have several people who have offered to do the spraying for me (auto body refinishers).

   Sorry about the long winded explanation here,  but another question for you on this.  Will the enamels give me that hard finish, that can be fixed up later on (scratches, etc...) that I am looking for? 

   I have used an oil based urethane before (over an epoxy flooring product), and loved the end result, but sure didn't like the associated,..side effects that my inexperienced self got to know too well.  I think i learned my lesson on this, and the use of a respirator,... but again,  it was a roll on product,...not a spray on.

   I'd love to hear back from you on this if possible, as any info is really appreciated.

   Thanks again :)

4. 
   RSRose | Aug 23, 2002 02:38am | #14

   Medic,

   "I think the inspiration for all this came from a store in Maui, where they were selling hi-end cabinets, gloss colours, simple rounded edges"

   What store in Maui are you referring to? I, too, do not like the plastic laminate look of the Euro cabinets. The prices here in Maui are over the, (ahem),  rainbow for the very look that we seem not to like. Did you see something more to your liking here, that you are trying to replicate?

   Rich

5. 
   Medic583 | Aug 23, 2002 04:01am | #15

    Oh no, have to remeber where we got the catalog from?  Ha, sorry, it's been awhile, but I do know that one of the brands at the store were called Siematic.  I did a quick search on the web (the Siematic site), and the only thing i could find was West Maui Cabinets.  I don't remember if they were the ones, but the store there had this line,  and another with amazing colours, rounded edges, etc.  Can't remember the other brand off the top of my head.

   I will do some digging and see if I can find the catalogs in the basement.  All I can say, it was way out of my price range, but the store owner still bent over backwords with getting me all the info, giving me catalogs, etc... and were great to deal with (even when we told them that it was just window shopping :).

   Here is a pic of one of the styles I'm trying for :)  Love the long handles, flat panels,  solid colour,...but this pic is a bit different than the ones I really fell in love with (gloss colours and rounded vertical door edges).

   http://www.siematic.com/60.htm

   View Image

6. 
   RSRose | Aug 23, 2002 04:26am | #16

   Yep,

   Siematic makes nice stuff.

   Did you know that those handles are available at Home Depot?

   My wife and I looked at an awful lot of Euro stuff. It looks very good at first. Very clean and sophisticated, but the plastic laminate look really doesn't  appeal to me, and while it looks very good at first, I'm not real impressed with the intrinsic quality.

   It's very expensive. I'm not familiar with the shop you mentioned - it's in one of the two most exclusive areas of the island - but one of the other custom shops quoted us $65,000 (!!!!) for the design that we wanted.

   Spurred on by that, we're now in the process of building our dream kitchen ourselves. There will be no plastic laminate! All maple, Euro style. Very blonde. It won't cost me but a very small fraction of that quote, and I don't think that I could buy the quality that I'll personally put into this project.

   We're pretty sure of tile counter tops, but we've been looking at concrete.

   Rich

2. 
   RevTed | Jul 29, 2002 06:46am | #5

   Medic--

   Zinsser B-I-N Shellac Primer/Sealer is applied just like any other primer, the only difference is you clean up with denatured alcohol. (make sure you vent well for both) As mentioned, sand to smooth. This stuff will change your life! NOTHING bleeds through B-I-N. I've used one coat to prime over old red and then one coat of Ben Moore white with no bleed. http://www.zinsser.com/tech_msds.asp I pay about $25/gal here in NYC; $18-20 if I can get to Home Depot.

   For my money, the best super-high-gloss paint is  HASCOLAC Brilliant made by Schreuder. Check the pic's on this site: http://merrillpaint.com/all_schreuder_house.htm Price in NYC is about $115/gal (sold in 2.5 L cans for $75)

   This door is a good example.

   View Image

   Good luck!

   Rev Ted

3. 
   RevTed | Jul 29, 2002 06:55am | #6

   Also-- be sure to use door and drawer bumpers to lessen the chance of cracking your great new finish. I learned the hard way years ago (before I started using Schreuder).

   Rev Ted

4. 
   woodwormal | Jul 29, 2002 04:35pm | #7

   Medic; I have sprayed mdf ,blue before , I used lacquer with a vinyl sealer  and had the lacquer shaded to the proper color of blue and top coated it with clear accrylic lacquer .  one secret I do to get it done right is give the primer two coats and sand between coats . this will produce a very glossy finish .

1. 
   bill_1010 | Jul 29, 2002 05:50pm | #8

   shellac has always amazed me, Who, one day, decided to harvest bug poop and mix it with alcohol to make a finish.... And what possesed him to do just that...