I have questions regarding re-finishing a solid body electric guitar. My guitar which I have owned a protected for some 20 years has recently fallen prey to damage caused by an impromptu pillow-fight among my “brain damaged” children. The result is that there are significant chunks of the finish that have been chipped away as well as multiple “dents” in the finish where the finish is broken but has not fully chipped away so that I can see the bare wood. My question is, what process can I go through to refinish the entire body of the guitar? How should I remove the existing finish and what finishing process should I use to bring it back to new? The existing finish is quite durable and I’d like to replace it with a finish that is just as durable.
It is my understanding that these issues can have an effect on the guitar’s sound so… with all due respect… I’d like to ask that you only reply if you have some sort of professional experience finishing electric guitars or considerable knowledge of how the professionals actually do it. As much as it’s nice to gather ideas and ponder what’s possible, in this case I want to leave no room for error.
P.S. – Seeing bare wood through a chip in a finish is almost as jarring as seeing your blood or guts… it’s just not supposed to be seen.
Replies
Mike
suggest asking at the Musical Instrument Makers Forum http://www.mimf.com
Great advice Stan. Thanks for the link.
My first reaction to your post is to express my annoyance at your attempt to control the responses to your question. This is an open forum and anyone is allowed to participate. That's what makes this place such a rich experience. You're seriously out of line.
Second, having the ability and experience to do exactly what is necessary, I'll also criticize you for thinking that without any previous experience in this kind of thing, you are going to be able to do this job, as a first-time effort, as the result of getting advice on a forum.
My advice is to have the guitar refinished by a "pro."
Rich
ps: The job has to be done in a workmanlike and professional manner, but beyond the quality of the finish, the expectation that the finish of an electric guitar materially affects its tone is a myth.
pps: If no more damage was done to the guitar than chipped finish, get over it. There's nothing wrong with the instrument's ability to play. Many well-known musicians have instruments that have seriously damaged bodies. It doesn't concern them at all. The really disturbing part of this is that you refer to your own children as "brain damaged" because your guitar was chipped. It's just stuff, but your children are infinitely more important.
Thanks for making this a rich experience, Rich. :)
Any time, pal.
It's just stuff, but your children are infinitely more important............
I dunno about that. I might consider giving each of those kids a frontal labotomy.
blewcrowe,Yeah? Nice attitude.Besides the fact that it's lobotomy, not labotomy, with that reaction, have you had one? (The procedure, not children)
it's lobotomy, not labotomy, with that reaction, have you had one?..............
Not everyone can be as perfect as you. Then again, who would want to be like you? Somebody lick all the red off your candy this morning?
"Somebody lick all the red off your candy this morning?"
Gotta remember that one. Too funny ;~)The Professional Termite
So, have guys seen spring yet? Man, it took a long time coming this year. Snow in April in south Jersey. Weird. I think it's Al Gore's fault. Or maybe GWBush.
If you care anything about this guitar, take it to a professional.
I do take a bit of umbrage at calling your children brain damaged. What's up with that.Gretchen
Do ya think there's the slightest possibility the guy was making a funny?
"calling your kids Brain Damaged"... "....What's up with that?.."
Being new here I suppose I have to apologize for having an obscure sense of humor. The reason why the words "Brain Damaged" were placed in quotes was to convey the following:
I'm actually quoting Bill Cosby who refers to all children as "Brain Damaged"... in a loving and joking way, much the same as Blew probably doesnt really think they should have a lobotomy. At minimum I guess I thought putting the words in quotes would convey that it's a phrase and not a serious statement. Though it has been fun to have my post picked apart I had a much "richer" experience at another site where people actually had finishing advice to offer me. I could go on about how this thread no longer has anything to do with what Im trying to find out but, Ahh well, I suppose I can still use this site as a moral compass.
the same as Blew probably doesnt really think they should have a lobotomy..........
I tried to give them a labotomy, but as I was so expertly corrected this morning, what I should have given them was a lobotamy. Now that you mention it, I kind of thought something went wrong when I was doing up the final stitching and it wasn't on their heads. (Naturally, I boiled the kids in hot oil first, not to mention taking away their iPods, which they REALLY fussed about.)
P.S. Mike, from here on out, I am officially outraged at Bill Cosby and will never again buy one his cds this week.
Edited 5/10/2007 2:09 pm ET by blewcrowe
To quote Dorothy Parker, I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.
Any of you got a problem with that?
Ray
I LIKE it.
Spring has sprung. Back in the days of Sputnik my mom used to blame it on the Russians messin with our weather again.The Professional Termite
My grandmother claimed they never had any bad weather before they started "sendin' up them rockit ships an' a pokin' holes in the sky".
Ditto! LOL
I have no experience with guitars, so I should not answer. But two weeks ago, I was in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame and saw innumerable electric guitars in severely chipped condition and guitars from all sorts of materials and sizes.
Other than that, I agree completely with Rich. It's just stuff. People and relationships are more important.
"Guitar Player" puts out a book, "Guitar player Repair Guide", Amazon has it for around $15 plus shipping.
It has a section on finishing, repairing the finish, and refinishing guitars.
It is an art form, in and of, itself. If you have the desire to really try this, at least read the book first, and then get some scrap 2x10s to practice on. Unless you have lots of experience spraying lacquer it will take about a year of practice before you are ready to give it a go. But it is lacquer, and you can take it back off with lacquer thinner, so practicing on your axe might be ok.
I can empathize; The ten year old step son, and the seven year old sister "El Kabonged" each other with my J-200, and Mom's Taylor. If they keep mowing the lawn, shoveling snow, and cleaning the house, they might have it paid off in time to go college before they are in their thirties.
Thanks for the lead. Is this the book you are referring to?
http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Player-Repair-Guide-Electrics/dp/0879302917/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_a/103-3202810-9391053?ie=UTF8&qid=1178856839&sr=8-3
Yep, that's the one. It is a good read for anyone who owns a guitar.
Seriously, if you have a guitar you value, I would recommend having it repaired by a seasoned pro.
If you are going to do your own work, buy a couple of cheap guitars, (swap meets, pawn shops, and garage sales are the best sources), that are in bad shape and practice on them. I learned how to do most of my own maintenance that way.
Mike, unless you have spraying gear and some experience it is best if you let a pro re-finish it. Sound qualities and electric guitars hmmmmmmm- I doubt if the finish will affect this.
Ofcourse you always auction one or more kids and buy a new guitar.
philip,
I'm shocked and dismayed that someone on this forum would even in jest, suggest selling their kids by auction.
I think that Gypsies will always give you a better price.
Ray
We don't have any Gypsies around here. The Gypsy Moths ate them all.<g>The Professional Termite
trail,
Another fallacy, or you might call it a moth myth. Moths only eat holes.
Ray
"Mike, unless you have spraying gear and some experience it is best if you let a pro re-finish it. Sound qualities and electric guitars hmmmmmmm- I doubt if the finish will affect this."<!----><!----><!---->
Thanks Philip, and to everyone else who responded on this thread. I too have suspicions about whether or not the finish would really affect the sound of an electric guitar. Seems more likely with acoustic instruments to me. I know the wood makes a difference, even on electric guitars though. This is why I was trying to flush out the “Guitar Finishers” if there were any here. I apologize if any of you were offended by my trying to qualify the type of advice I was looking for as being "professional". It has been enjoyable to read all of your responses. I just didn't want to end up taking unprofessional advice from someone who failed to note that they had no idea what they were actually talking about ;)<!----><!---->
The guitar in question is important to me, sentimentally more than on any other level. I don't imagine that it's 'worth' all that much and I'm not much interested in putting a dollar value on it anyway. Having said that, I still don't want to 'ruin' it and if I'm going to do it, I want to do it right. I feel that the sentimental value would be increased even further if I could put a nice finish on it that I could be proud of. It’s fair to say that I’ve considered refinishing it in the past even before the damage to the finish occurred.<!----><!---->
It strikes me as funny, though I suppose prudent, that most of the responses have suggested that I take it to a ‘pro’. The 'funny' part is the part where it's assumed, with no prior knowledge of my experience, that I "can't do it" or "shouldn't" if it's important. This is also sound advice... but you have to admit... it all assumes a bit of stupidity on my part. I'm not sure about you but when I take on a project that involves something new for me, the first step is to research what's involved. This is then followed by an honest self evaluation of my skill set which then leads to either subcontracting the parts I'm uncomfortable with (the whole thing if necessary), or bridging the gap between my skill set and the requirements. It’s not like I would just run out to the shop and refinish a piano this weekend without a careful consideration and respect for what’s involved with that. I'm not afraid of things that are difficult and I hope you're not either. It’s when I’m challenged that I’m having the most fun. I once rebuilt an engine, with no prior experience, and it purred like a kitten. You can do anything if you are mindful and break it up into small enough parts. Patience helps a bit too. After all, guitars are manufactured en masse and you can buy them for practically nothing yet they all seem to have a perfectly shiny and smooth appearance in all the price ranges. Certainly they weren't all finished by "Master Finishers" with a lifetime of experience.<!----><!---->
Edited 5/13/2007 6:35 am by MikeHoncho
How interesting that you take some "offense" at not being taken seriously as a possible refinisher of this instrument. Since you have now discovered (at least as I read the posts) that no one here has the experience to advise you, I suggest you visit the instrument refinishing sites that someone suggested. If you can get enough info there to walk you through refinishing a musical instrument, more power to you.I love refinishing wood and feel pretty confident doing it. A musical instrument is a lot more than a piece of wood and the instruments I have seen have finishes on them that require a LOT more expertise--and probably equipment and proper finshes--than I can muster. Just an observation.
Some guitars ARE finished by master finishers. How were we to know yours isn't.Gretchen
Mike, you are right enough- you could re-spray the guitar,after some research. It would entail removing the old finish and applying the relevant lacquers, with sanding and burnishing compounds at the appropriate stages.With no time constraints you would arrive at the desired result-it is not as if anything is not reversible , neither is there any risk of destroying the guitar.It's your call- but the easy way is to get a pro to do it.Since you posed the question it is assumed that you have no experience of spraying, or the gear, and you want to replicate the typical high gloss lacquer finish.
With reference to those mass produced guitars- certainly no "master finishers" would have done them-but the industrial process used no doubt is not practically replicated by the ordinary home woodworm. Possibly on the more up-market ones there might be some hand finishing (burnishing etc), but I'm sure this is limited.
I don't know why some folk are getting all prickly over your postings...Philip Marcou
I too have suspicions about whether or not the finish would really affect the sound of an electric guitar. Seems more likely with acoustic instruments to me. I know the wood makes a difference, even on electric guitars though.
Depends on who you talk to. I've been told both that the finish makes a huge difference and that it makes no appreciable difference... both sources were guitar players with refinish experience.
I neither play nor have experience refinishing guitars... although I would like to some day and have read up on it a fair bit. My money is on the guys who say that the finish matters. Although to what degree...? Hard to say.
Someone suggesting buying a cheap guitar and practicing on it first. Seems to me that you could probably decide for yourself whether the finish matters by doing that but playing it before and then after refinishing and let your own ears settle the question.
For what it's worth... the folks who insist that the finish matters swear by natural resins over synthetic resins. In fact that seems to be the crux of why the finish matters, in their view.
Kevin,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. As you may have guessed I'm still on the fence about this one. If the density of the wood makes a difference then why not the density of the finish? As an extreme example, I imagine a light oil finish vs a thick epoxy finish would possibly make the instrument sound different. When something like this is disputed from both sides it makes me think a few things.
a.) If there is a difference it may be negligible. My feeling is that if it were a distinct or significant difference that it would not be taken into dispute. It would be 'obvious' or common knowledge. I have heard it suggested that the difference between a 96k digital recording and a 192k digital recording is inperceptible to the human ear. I have heard people argue about it on both sides.
b.) If there is a difference caused by the finish, however negligible it might be, it could be something that I would notice. Particulalry when matters are about 'taste' or preference in arena's such as the arts.
c.) As so often is the case, experience or first hand knowledge is more reliable than advice. "Advice, usually given free, is often worth the price".
Your suggestion to find out for myself is a great suggestion and is often where I end up. With my recording equipment I can easily record the raw unadulterated sound of an instrument before and after finishing and decide for myself if it makes a difference.
Some reading material:
http://www.mother-of-tone.com/mother.htm The page on "The Effect of Lacquer" is highly relevant to your specific issue.
http://home.flash.net/~guitars/ReRanch101.html A do-it-yourself site with lots of pics of truly gorgeous guitars refinished by amateurs as well as all the appropriate materials and how-to guides.
I work with a guy who is an axeman for a rock 'n roll band seemingly on the cusp of hitting the big time... quitting in about a month to do that full time. He's got a newer Gibson that he doesn't play because he says the sound is attrocious and gives him a headache. I sent him a link to the Mother of Tone site and although he has no finishing experience and knows next to nothing about the resins, what it said rang true to him. I think you'll find that chapter on Lacquer very interesting because the writer did exactly what I suggested (in fact that's where I got the idea) - he bought a cheap guitar with a synthetic resin finish that sounded horrible and swears that after refinishing it it is now a pleasure to play.
That said... I suspect that the average person wouldn't perceive any difference unless coached through what to listen for and presented with a direct comparison with which to help them perceive the difference. And a lot would seem to depend on the style of music being played as well. One of my main axeman heros, Eddie Van Halen, has some distinctively painted guitars that I'd bet have a synthetic resin finish on them. With enough deliberate distortion being introduced I can't see how the finish would matter much. Whereas something more classical like some of Willie Nelson's fine picking would seem to be a style where you'd definitely notice subtle differences. Willie of course makes the case for the finish not mattering a great deal because that accoustic he always plays has got to be one of the most severely abused looking guitars I've ever seen and yet he makes some amazing sounds come out of it. But then again... I'd bet that what remains of the original finish is a natural resin.
Thanks for the links. Upon initial inspection they look very interesting and I'll read through them more thoroughly this evening.
Cheers
My opinion only and I can't play a note on anything. I just love music though.
If I could play and just 'loved' my guitar I would contact the maker and ask them to 'fix it' whatever the cost. Just me...
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