I have an old maple kitchen chair with a rung that has come loose from its socket. It is a round mortise and tenon joint.
Is there some straightforward way to get this fixed? I’ve never had much success simply scraping out glue and then re-gluing.
Thanks in advance.
dave
Replies
Rocklers sells a repair glue just for that. It is a viscous epoxy that is injected with a sirynge.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
many ways to skin this cat...
use a good epoxy, construction adhesive, or any glue other than aliphatic resin.
and clamp.
Expert since 10 am.
You might want to take a look at Chair Doctor.
I have no experience with it myself.
-Steve
Dave,
It can be a challenge to make a lasting repair. The problem with simply applying a new coat of glue and clamping is twofold.
One, the glue you use may not be compatible with the old glue(s) already in the joint. That is, your glue might not want to stick to the old layer of glue, or it might almalgamate with it, to make a new, non gluey substance. Even if you use a glue that has good gap-filling qualities (like epoxy) there is no guarantee that the layer of glue it adheres to on the rung, or inside the joint has any great strength.
And two, the leg that has sprung loose from the rung is almost certainly loose at the joint where it enters the seat (if a plank bottom), or where it joins the seat rail (if a framed seat). Frequently it is necessary to knock apart the whole base of the chair and re-assemble it, to make a good repair. A loose joint is often just the weakest link in the chain of joints holding the base of a chair, a symptom of a general problem, and once repaired, will put enough strain on the whole, that another rung will soon work loose.
You ought to be careful in scraping the old glue from the rung, and inside the hole, so that you do not scrape away any of the wood, for in so doing you will affect the fit of the joint. Better to try and find a solvent for the old glue (there isn't one for epoxy), and wash it off, than to scrape or sand. If the chair is a commercial product, often there won't be much old glue to deal with. Most assembly line chairs are put together with a minimal amount of glue, just a dab in the hole, to avoid any squeeze-out, and clean-up, an extra step in the process. Also, factory chairs typically have shorter than optimal tenons, especially at the seat, minimal glue area resulting in joints that don't last.
A final problem with older chairs that have been repaired, and broken loose over and over, is that the tenons get compressed by being squished from side to side in their wobbly holes as the sitter rocks around in his seat. Now, a water-based glue, like hide glue, or Franklins or Elmer's may swell some of this back out, as it soaks in.
So, what to do? If the chair isn't particularly old, or of any great value, cleaning the joint, and re-gluing with any good glue will probably will do the trick. If you need gap filling properties, use epoxy. Be sure and check for loose joints elsewhere at the same time. (You can mix the epoxy with fine sawdust to make it thicker so that it won't be as inclined to flow out of an extremely loose joint.)
If the chair is an antique (pre 1940), best to use hot or liquid hide glue, as this is likely what was used originally, and will be compatible. It is also reversible ( if you find out on the Roadshow that "this rare chair would be worth $5 million, if you hadn't slobbered epoxy/construction adhesive/superglue all over the stretchers"). If using hide glue, be sure to remove any other, newer glue that has been used for repairs before. Loose joints in old work are best built up to reduce the amount of gap that the glue will have to bridge. I've used cloth (cotton or linen, not synthetic fibers) to wrap a loose tenon before stuffing it into its mortise, or sometimes you can ease a thin crossgrain veneer into the hole by wetting the outside with glue and as it curls up, roll it into a tube and into place. Again, be sure that all the other joints are tight, before gluing just the one that's coming apart.
Ray
"Better to try and find a solvent for the old glue (there isn't one for epoxy)..."
Methylene chloride-based paint removers will soften epoxy, although it might take all day. It won't dissolve completely, but it will turn into a sort of rubbery mass that can be scraped off. Back when I was a grad student, we used pure methylene chloride (in a fume hood!) to disassemble experimental apparati that had been put together with epoxy.
-Steve
Thanks Steve.
Ray
Our shop always used two part, slow set epoxy. You don't need to have the old adhesive completely removed and the joint does not need to be particularly tight. It's a pretty permanent fix.
I know some will say that you should use a "reversible" adhesive. Maybe so if the item is a real antique. But one thing that you can count on with adhesives like hide glue is that they will ultimately fail. Glue failure on a chair can lead to some serious injuries. Best to use an adhesive that has minimal chance to fail.
Howie
I respectfully disagree ... adamantly. If you have done repairs on a chair with crossgrain glued with epoxy you would be thinking differently. There is nothing you can do but dissassemble the joint, clean all of the epoxy out and hopefully rejoin the piece.
Some joinery, like most of the stuff on chairs needs to be repairable down the road and not one time forever. It just doesn't make sense on a long term schedule.
Lots of the stuff I build for customers I guarantee for life. Mine that is. I can reactivate hide glue in minutes. I can not say the same for epoxy. I am not a purist and I use epoxy... cautiously and with restraint. Give the next guy a chance to repair your work and give new life to a fine piece of work.
photo: chairs glued with hide glue. repairs -- simple.
Put some note on the bottom of the chair: hide glue for all joinery. A little hot water or vinegar will release the joint. Add new glue and leave note for the guy when you're gone.
I was sure pleased to see danmart's response.One thing is sure about your chair--if it survives, it will need repair again in the future. Repairing epoxy joints is iffy at best. Hide glue joints will always be repairable. Give your chair a chance to survive and the next guy who has to repair it a good chance of success, use hide glue.
Nuf said LW.
My theory is that once a joint becomes loose, it puts additional stress on neighboring joints, and on down the line. I, too, tell people there is no piece of furniture that pound-for-pound takes the abuse that chairs do."First, do no harm"
If the original has hide glue, I use hide glue.
If the original has another glue, I use white PVA that has a longer closed time.
Only as a last resort, when there is a strong need for gap filling, and only when the piece is such junk I don't think it will stick around for another gluing, I'll use epoxy.I also clean out the mortises and tenons before gluing (usually dowels and holes). Loose joints get a slip of veneer.I don't use wedges (see "reversibility," above.)I swear when I see screws in the joints. I swear more when I see pneumatic nails, proportional to the square of the number of nails per joint. I swear quite a bit too, when I find narrow crown staples. All of these things make it virtually impossible to remove the parts without collateral damage and generally have split parts due to concentration of stresses.I took Drew Langsner's chairmaking class quite a few years ago, based on John Alexander's "Make a Chair from a Tree." I learned more about chair construction than you can imagine. Every piece optimized strength with construction, orientation and joinery. After 15 years, that chair is as tight as it was the first week.(P.S. Larry, tell Don I said hi.)
I believe the advice from YOGI is called a "fox" wedge. I have used it many times and it works well and I believe it maintains the integrity of the piece
You have received some sound advice. I Have repaired hundreds of chairs and I tell my customers that there are only two kinds of chairs, One's that are loose and one's that are going to get loose. No other wooden product is subjected to such everyday stresses and strains and abuse as are wooden chairs. If the chair is in regular use, even the best fix, will in time, probably come loose.
This is something I do know about having repaired aroud forty to fifty this year.
If one joint has parted you can bet the rest are dodgy, in my experience they were glue starved in the first place, being mass produced. Knock them apart, all of them, and do a good job on the whole. Gluing up is much easier from scratch, I used epoxy, and add veneer shims if any are needed.
Dave, you have been given good advice from Knots posters....
However no one suggested using a tourniquet to brace the chair while the glue dries.
Use a few stout 'Hanks" of twine or masons line and form each into a loop and tie the ends together with a square knot
The loop should be long enough to wrap twice around two upturned opposing legs but loose enough to drop onto the legs.
Place the chair leg side up upon a table (or another seat side up chair)
(I attach TWO tourniquets (one each across it's two diagonal partners),
Then,after gluing, use two lengths of dowel to slip through the center of each of the loops and wind up each loop with even pressure. When sufficiently taut, pull back on one dowel end to capture it to rest against a cross member. Don't forget to wipe away any exposed glue with a slightly damp cloth!
Let the glue dry overnight. When dry, check for one short leg which may need a small glued shim to level and prevent rocking .
Good luck, Steinmetz.
Edited 11/12/2007 1:15 pm ET by Steinmetz
Edited 11/12/2007 2:20 pm ET by Steinmetz
You might hide a little wedge in the end of the rung before you tap it in-
Lots of good advice in all of these replies. My $.02:
One loose joint indicates all the joints are in need of repair. I use two part epoxy in the joints, the 30 min. type, not 5 min.! 2 strap clamps needed, along with regular clamps as necessary.
Lacquer thinner will loosen epoxy. If dowels break I usually use all thread of a suitable diameter. Gently disassemble parts with a rubber no bounce mallet , saving all splinters and parts for reglueing-yellow glue works fine for this application. Screws and nails are a commonly seen repair technique, and I remove and putty the holes.
People cannot believe the time and materials that go into a complete chair repair, so I don't get many of them anymore (they are too cheap). But, if you do one correctly the satisfaction is tremendous!
Pete
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