Hi,
I’m in the process of a kitchen remodel and am having a hard time selecting a cabinet maker. I’m having a hard time distinguishing the difference in quality between the highest bid and the lowest bid. The cabinets are face frame inset doors, paint grade. My bids range from $34,000 at the high end to $18,000 at the low end.
What are the important things to look at when determining the quality of the cabinets? All are using pre-finished mable ply for the cabinets. Is all pre-finished cabinet grade plywood the same?
High end is 1/2″ plywood drawers, plywood panels for the doors. Lowest is solid maple dovetailed 5/8″ drawers with the option of MDF, plywood or solid wood for the door panels. I have an uneducated bias against MDF and am considering plywood or solid wood. Should I rule out MDF? Will it wear as well as plywood or solid wood? The cabinets will be painted. I know there’s always the concern about wood movement and cracks when using solid wood. My bathroom cabinets have solid wood doors and are painted. They’re two years old and show no signs of cracking.
How tight should the reveal be? This is the area that’s driving me crazy. Am I completely unrealistic to expect a perfect reveal for all the doors and drawers?
Are undermount, soft close Blumotion glides superior to side mounted glides? Will they last?
The island in the kitchen will be butcher block. How do I specify the material? Most people have quoted maple. Are there different grades? What should I look for.
Finally, is it reasonable to ask the cabinet maker to show me a kitchen that he’s built and installed. Everyone acts like they’re never asked to do this, with one flat out refusing. Is this an unreasonable request?
A lot of questions here. I’m hoping someone will be brave enough to tackle them.
Thanks for any info.
Matt
Replies
Matt,
I am not a cabinetmaker, but a woodworker nonetheless.
1/2" BALTIC BIRCH plywood is nice for drawers. Regular plywood has voids and I think the edges are ugly and are best hidden. Solid maple is a good choice. But more important than material choice (either of these options are acceptable) is fit and finish. Some type of interlocking joinery (dovetails, dado & rabbet, pinned) for the drawers is better than just having the drawers nailed together.
MDF is flat and stable, but has a tendency to sag under its own weight. It would be a poor choice for a table top without adequate bracing but would be fine for doors. That said, MDF does not thrive in high-humidity environments. How much will there be in the kitchen? Panels recieve very little wear, unless they get stuff thrown at them or get kicked closed. Frame and panels, done properly, should never crack and should stay flat. My kitchen cabinets (commerically made) are solid oak and are not cracked or warped.
Blumotion glides are invisible and super smooth. They also offer more adjustability, so you can get even reveals all around (within reason - there is of course only so much adjustability).
You should absolutely be able to get the names and phone numbers of past customers so that you can see their work and, more importantly, hear how happy the customer was with the cabinetmaker and their work.
That should be enough to get you started.
and www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I dislike the idea of MDF in a kitchen cabinet door or drawer front.
Although the stuff paints beautifully, it also knicks and dings easily. And when it gets nicked, it's impossible to repair effectively.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
Undermount slides versus side-mount slides --
This is completely a design-decorator option. The thought is that undermount slides are hidden even when the drawer is open, and therefore the overall look of the cabinets is somehow "better".
It's a thought that gets lost an many of us, since we have a tendency to keep our drawers closed, making the slides invisible anyway.
Although I will say that undermount slides do not hide the dovetails that we all take so much time with.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
I'm chuckling at your comment about spending time on dovetailed drawer boxes. I used to offer them in the past, but all I ever got was a confused look. When I explained - and told them the upcharge - they all passed. I have yet to have a customer actually buy them. - lol
If the island will be butcher block, my opinion is that you should specify maple -- hard maple. It will last a long time, and is incredibly tough stuff.
And you should be clear to say that you are talking about a species of wood, and not a "look" or a " finish".
Many cabinet companies have taken to a marketing technique where they sell (for example) "cherry" cabinets that are made from birch-veneer. They also will sell you "Mahogany" cabinets, which are made from the same birch-veneer plywood.
And the same can be true with butcherblock counters.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
Lots of questions, but only a few answers....
(BTW, my shop makes custom kitchens as our main business).
MDF is a reasonable alternative for use as the panel in a framed door. It makes a very good base for painted surfaces, and in that application it's vulnerability is minimal. No exposed edges to get chipped, and probably no contact with moisture. If you're not a purist you can use MDF for panels without worry.
Blumotion undermounts (or their equivalent from Grass or Hettich) are superior to side-mounted conventional slides, and they have the advantage of being hidden. They will last a very long time, but they are very sensitive to dust.
It is not only reasonable to ask to see a cabinetmaker's work, but also to receive phone numbers of previous clients to ask them how the experience of working with that maker was. If a maker won't freely give you a list of a dozen such references, go somewhere else. Immediately. Any cabinet shop that is proud of its work wants nothing more than to have you see it and talk to former clients.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
Hi Matt ,
Not all pre finished Maple plywood is the same , check to see if they are using China ply or any other formaldehyde laden products that could cause problems we don't know about in the future .
Go look at the raw materials see for your self where it comes from .
My feeling is the cheapest cabinets showing the best drawer box for a reason but not the right reason. 1/2" Apple ply or Baltic Birch or Maple is very good material , there are also foreign made imitations of these products ask.
Mdf is preferred by the painters as a superior surface to paint ,I agree and use it for most paint grade work for door panels only not drawer faces or cabinet ends .
As far as the reveal goes , not sure what you had in mind but 3/32" is what I shoot for , much less some door hinges will not pivot out of the opening .But expecting a consistent or equal reveal is not unrealistic .
I have just recently began using the Blumotion on a few jobs , there is not much to dislike except the cost . A full extension side mount slide may cost $15 or so less but if you only have 15 drawers you are talking a few hundred dollars on something that will last a life time regardless of the drawer box .
The island Butcher block top should be specified in specie and thickness , they run from 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" from John Boos co , hard rock Maple .
Don't just go by the showroom ask to see a job installed.
Regards dusty, boxmaker
Not unreasonable at all. Ask to see several of his jobs from the past, last year, 5 years ago too, to see how they have held up. Once you pick the cab man ask him the questions you stated above.
Dennis
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