A few months ago I browsed through a Amish Furniture store. I was suprised to see that most all joinery was done with pocket holes/screws. I bought a (kreg) pocket hole jig and have been very productive since. They are a piece of cake to use, but I’m just curious if those joints will hold up over time?
Replies
I've just about quit using mortise/tenon joints on small items (frames, cabinet doors, etc.)since I bought my pocket kit. Not only do they fit together well, but I've received no complaints from my customers of anything parting. I do use a dab of glue in the joint before screwing them together.
Len (Len's Custom Woodworking)
Pocket hole joints are the work of the devil! An abomination! Evil.
Rich
No need to hold back, Rich. You're among friends here.
They're symptomatic of everything that's wrong in the world today. Things are going to hell in a hand basket. And children don't respect their elders any more!
They're ugly.
A sign of negative craftsmanship. Expediency at the cost of sensitivity for the work.
Fast, dirty, cheap.
And those are the good points!
Rich
I hear you, buddy.
I've never used them, but I've always wondered about the long term durability of a joint that's held in alignment only by the compression of the screw. Maybe that's reasonable in kitchen cabinet face frames, where there's no movement and a lot of the joints are loaded in compression, but I'd be leery of using them in any kind of furniture that gets moved around.
Sorry I hurt your feelings, and that you feel that I do such crappy work. Guess that I should turn down my customers that keep coming back for more furniture, and passing my shop's name around.
Len (Len's Custom Woodworking)
Len,
Lighten UP, man. It didn't mean anything personal. It was just kidding.
I hope that your business is wildly successful. Sell a gazillion units a year.
Rich
I apologize. It just hit me badly. The gentleman that posted was asking for information. That's what I did. Your post just caught me wrong, and it was uncalled- for of me to go off like that. If you read my post, I use pocket screws only on small items. Most of the time, I do them for face frames on large projects. It's much easier, and there's very little structural weight on the casement.
Again, sorry for my comeback. I take great pride in my work, but try to use the tools to simplify and helps me fulfill my favorite saying: "work smart, not hard."
Len (Len's Custom Woodworking)
Real curious how these joints hold up over time...
Are pocket holes something akin to newer epoxies and biscuit joinery. Have you ever seen a pocket hole joint fall apart?
Did you say you drop some glue in the holes prior to screwing, or do you glue the joining wood faces together? Don't glued joints (under stress) just break over time anyway? By that I mean that the glue becomes brittle.
-Ken
As a committed amateur with not nearly as much time as I'd like, I use them and like them alot. My best test case for staying power is an outdoor patio (coffee-style) table I built from cedar using almost exclusively pocket screws and exterior glue. As you could well imagine, an outdoor table gets knocked around a fair bit and so far (thru several seasons) is tight as a drum.
Thank you Ben. That's exactly what I'm looking for.
I use them for just about everything that wont be seen. face frames ,paint grade doors, even aprons to table legs they seem to hold up well. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
For the right joint they are superb. Quick, invisable, strong, and you don't have to stop working while you wait for the glue to dry. If the joint will show you can use plugs. I have never had a problem with anything I have used them on (built-ins, mantels, casing, stair trimout, attaching cabinets...they are great and when you get it you will wonder how you got along without it. Suck it up and get the kreg jig, like most tools you will be happier with quality brands. And to the person who asked if you glue the joint - yes, I don't think they would work well without glue.
Ken,
Most mass produced furniture of the late Victorian period used pocket holes and screws. Look at the results some 100+ years later: cracked tops and broken joints. A screw really doesn't have much shear strength, and if (when) wood movement breaks the glue joint you're left with only the screw to hold things together. No thanks, and besides that I think they look like hell.
Jeff
A screw doesn't have much shear strength? Huh? Would you like to elaborate? And a cracked top isn't the fault of a pocket screwed joint; it's faulty design.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
If a screw doesn't have much shear strength, God help us all who live in houses with nailed framing.
Bill,
Less shear strength than a nail. Check with your building inspector on that one.
Jeff
Thanks for the info.. I'm going to back up some screws I used to build an overhead lumber storage in my shop with nails.
Bill
Ken,
They did not hold with some pressure treated wood used outside. I made some frames for the lattice...the wood was pretty crappy. The point being if the wood is good they work well.
I have been using pocket hole joints in most of my furniture projects for years with no ill effects. The Kreg Jig is easy to use and is a strong joint maker. I have used it on entertainment centers, cabinets and even mirror and picture frames of large sizes, [when the joint could be hidden in the back]. Pocket hole joints are found on many of todays production furniture pieces if you examine them at the showrooms. I often feel under the top of coffee tables and find pocket holes.
lenny
Edited 9/15/2002 2:56:34 AM ET by tiger
Re: the comparison to Victorian furniture and not holding up. It would be safe to point out that that 100 plus year old joint has done rather well with its old pocket screws and hide glue. In fact many of those joints when taken apart and restored show that the failure was in the glue having been consumed by bacteria. Or perhaps its because over the last 100 years that furniture has been handed down, given away, rediscovered, and in use again.
Pocket screws in combination with good glue and a well fit glue joint will be around a LONG time.
IMHO
Ken,
Pocket screwed joints, like any woodworking joint, has it's place. You've just got to give the same consideration to this joint's appropriatness as you would any other. For instance, you probably wouldn't use lag bolts in cabinet construction, but you'd probably use them on your deck (I would. if I could hide them).
Pocket screws allow me to blind fasten where strictly glued joints aren't necessary or cost effective - for me or my client. And except in lower grade, painted cabinets, I never use nails or brads. Pocket screws, however, if they can be hidden, don't leave behind filled nail dimples (and anyway, I don't think nailed joints hold well at all). So, I use pocket screws when appropriate and only when the screw pockets can be hidden.
I use pocket screws to join face frame rails and stiles, but only on cabinets affixed to the wall. I draw the line at mobile furniture, not believing a glued and pocket screwed joint is strong enough. I like mortise and tenon joined face frames for furniture. But I do use pocket screws to affix face frames to carcases (along with biscuits for alignment and glue), on both permanent and mobile cabinets and furniture. This system is especially good for big face frame projects, when I sometimes don't have enough clamps to bring everything together. I use the screws in place of clamps, where the screws won't be visible, and clamp where screws aren't appropriate. Used properly in these joints, I've never witnessed a failure in maybe six years of use.
I've never assembled frame and panel doors (even paint-grade doors) with pocket screws, because cope-and-stick joints are simple, strong, and acceptable by most standards. I don't use pocket screws alone to join weight bearing shelves to cabinet sides, but do use them if I can also use biscuits and glue, and so long as the'll be invisible. This means that I do use pocket screws within cabinet sections that are filled with drawers, but not in open sections with shelves.
I have a portable Kreg jig, probably like yours, which I use at job sites, as well as using it in the shop, along with my neumatic stationary tool. I wouldn't discount these joints just because they weren't available a hundred years ago. In fact, I'd bet my investment that my great grandpa would have loved one. Judging by what he made, I think he was a practical woodworker.
namaste,
Gary
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