How do PowerMatic, SCI MiniMax, and Hammer machines stack up against each other?
I’ve been working the last 7 years with hand tools. While I like it a lot, I’d like to get a few machines to take some of the donkey work out of milling the stock. A bandsaw (want over 12″ resaw capability), jointer (12 or 16″ capability), planer (to at least match what I joint) (and of course dust collection) would be all that I need. I’ve been saving and am getting close to having enough.
I really am not interested in almost as good as type tools. I really want to buy once, cry once and have my lifetime tool. As best I can tell, PowerMatic, MiniMax, and Hammer seem to fit the description? Do you know how the three stack against each other? Many thanks for the help. Is there a good site for used tools? I don’t have any experience refurbishing tools so I’ve been leaning towards new tools. Having said that, when I was a teenager in the 1980s, I would tune up my 60s mustang, change oil, etc.
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I can't really compare the brands, as I only have some Powermatic machines. They were built probably at least 40 years ago, as I bought them used quite a few years ago. They are solid machines. I can't speak for the current new crop, as they are not built here in Tennessee.
When I started out, I was trying to equip my shop while having very limited financial resources. I had spent all my savings building the shop and my house. So I went totally with used machines. It helped that a close friend was an auto mechanic, and we refurbished the machines together. If you know a woodworker who is knowledgeable about machines, they can help you evaluate used ones. It is possible to save significant amounts of money, and get superior machines, but it often takes time and effort to find the stuff and pick out the good ones.
I did some checking on Craigslist here in Tennessee and in Atlanta. It was underwhelming. When the seller doesn't even tell you the size of the bandsaw (14"? 18"?) or the width of the jointer, you know he isn't selling something he knows anything about.
One place to look for used equipment is to find an auction company that specializes in commercial equipment sales, and get on their mailing list. Sometimes most of the guys at the auction are looking for smaller machines they can carry down the basement stairs, and the heavier stuff sells pretty cheap. Another place I have bought a fair number of machines is at big city school system surplus auctions, in my case Nashville. Here you need to be really careful about missing/broken parts, as the kids really abuse the equipment, and if another machine they are keeping needs a part, they pull it off the one they are going to sell. If there are sawmills operating in your area, check in with them about equipment dealers, as band saws are often used in sawmills and the wood processing factories that work with the rough lumber.
I suspect that it will be hardest to find a used 16"-20" jointer, especially one with a long enough bed. For a long time, 8" width was the big boy. (I got lucky and was told about a used 24"x6' jointer back in the early 80s. Went with the cash in my pocket.) By the way, if you are going to look at a promising used machine, carry the cash to buy it immediately if it suits you. It can disappear in a heartbeat to someone else if you delay.
I hope I haven't discouraged you about used equipment. Buying new is certainly simpler, and more immediate. If I had gone that way, I would not have the 24" jointer, the 26" industrial planer, the 36" bandsaw, the two spindle industrial shaper with over 50 sets of cutters, the over-arm router, etc.
I just got a Minimax SC3 sliding table saw and absolutely love it. Sam Blasco @ MiniMax was incredibly helpful throughout the whole sale process. I originally wanted to go with Hammer, but they were impossible to get a hold of (tried both calling and emailing) so I decided not to give them my money.
I'm a Hammer user.
I am very pleased with my K3 winner sliding saw. It is powerful, accurate and quiet. Fit and finish is good (but not superb). The fence is outstanding but I bought the upgraded version.
Some things to watch - dust collection is very good and with the guard on and connected to suction there is no dust in the air, but it does need a fairly powerful sucker and it can jam up with scrap. A zero clearance insert is hard to fit though a sheet of 2mm MDF can be used. I would have preferred a longer sliding stroke (I have 1.2M /4') but that would have been too big for my shop. Blade changes are a snip.
I also recently bought the A341 16" jointer/planer combo and I'm in love with it. Again needs a reasonably powerful extractor - my 1.5HP could have handled it without ducting, but my 3HP easily keeps almost all dust at bay. Very quiet, very powerful and with the optional but essential digital thickness guide it will be within 0.05mm of set thickness every time.
The Euro blade guard is much safer than a pork chop style guard.
The support for the fence (and behind-fence guard) stick out though so the machine must be 16" from a wall. I have mine in the middle of the shop with a pair of cabinets using the space either side of the guard so it's not a biggie for me.
Both items come with a very short power cord and both draw 20A at 240V so you do need a beefy power setup and a bit of electrical skill to prepare.
I lust for the N4400 band saw which I have only seen in the store, but it just feels fabulous.
All the major Hammer tools have extension bed options which can be clipped on to make extra support on the TS outfeed, both planer beds and the bandsaw.
Overall I am happy with mu purchases - I have superb tools that do the job uncompromisingly well.
If you haven’t already, check out Ramon Valdez for his zero clearance insert for Hammer K3 saws. Very well made and priced. https://ramonvaldezfinefurniture.com/
The Euro saws with sliding tables are great. They require a lot more space than a traditional American cabinet saw. Figure your shop layout pretty carefully before you decide. I didn't have the room in my basement so for one.
When I upgraded a few years ago, I went with the Sawstop PCs, 3hp. It was actually a no-brainer for me. Its a wonderful saw. And with the ICS mobile base, it couldn't possibly be easier to move.
I don't own a jointer, and never have. I've never missed it. If you really need one, consider one of the jointer/planer combo machines. Get the 16 inch if you can.
I've always had a Dewalt lunchbox planer. I've been very happy. I do wish for more width at times. My dream would be a Powermatic 20 inch with a spiral cutterhead. But I'd have to keep it in my garage. Going up and downstairs between the shop and garage doesn't appeal, and I'd need another dust collector too.
I have a Laguna 14/12 bandsaw, and it's fantastic. Lately I've been thinking of adding a power feed, but I'd need a bigger saw with a big enough table. I'm considering a Laguna 18BX, but I need to find one to measure first.
What, no lathe?
The latest I have seen from powermatic are generic machines with a Powermatic paint job. If you have access to Holytek machinery that may be a third option to compete with european suppliers.
I've never heard of them. Who are they?
Its from Taïwan, we see them in medium to large shops. Heavily built from thick plate steel they even make a radial arm saw that is a beast. Probably would have to get through the Canadian branch.
I have their 3HP cyclone which is superb except for the bin, which is flimsy, hard to get to seal and really not of a good quality. Can't fault the suction though.
Similar to Rob I have Hammer machines (same A3-41 and K3 but with the 2M sliding table) and concur with all the points he made. I also have the N4400 bandsaw. On the K3 I use the sliding table more than the fence as I have the outrigger. This combined with a Fritz and Franz jig that you make yourself it is an amazing machine. Dead accurate upon delivery. Same with the A3-41. For the K3 I even made the same style sliding crosscut sled as on a North American table saw as I did not like the changeover required for some of the cuts I needed. I use the slot on the sliding table and fixed it so the slider moves with the sled fixed in place. One buyer beware tip. When I was relocating my jointer/planer from inside the house to the garage I inadvertently put the bed out of alignment. Even with the help of a few YouTube videos I could not get the machine trued up so had to call Hammer for a support technician. You may want to check if one would be available in your area if a similar situation were to occur. Otherwise, these machines allow me to do a wide range of woodworking from handling sheet goods, ripping long lengths of solid lumber and smaller pieces like for jewellery boxes (but with the F&F jig). I bought all three machines in 2018 in anticipation of my retirement and since then I am in my shop 4-5 days per week. Very happy with all three machines. Sorry I have no experience with the other two brands although I just bought the Powermatic PM701 Mortiser. I just unpacked it but it looks like a really solid machine and easy to set up and use (chopping mortises by hand was exciting for the first two or three). I will report back once I have had a chance to put it through its paces. It was made in Taiwan.
RE: site for used machines:
I have gotten shop full of great used machines on Woodweb:
https://woodweb.com/cgi-bin/exchanges/machinery.cgi
I have saved thousands of dollars and now have top of the line machines (Martin, Felder, etc). Every seller I have deal with has been great. You need to continually monitor the site for selection, be patience, and then hope the logistical/shipping situation works out (e.g. shipping a 2000lb Martin shaper across country isn't easy or cheap.)
I never buy new machines unless I absolutely had to have something ASAP.
Good luck with your investments.
Thaks all for the feedback. I'm open to other premium brands. It's hard when you research online as everyone wants you think their brand is just as good as the other. The ability to get a service tech out to my home could very well be the deciding factor. The other potential influencer is that I am taking an "intro to woodworking" class locally. Have used the Powermatic jointer, planer, drill press and a 3 HP SawStop. It's quite possible I end up duplicating these tools based on familiarity. Though, a combo jointer planer such as what Hammer or SCI sell makes sense from a space perspective. Still very open to premium brands. Just keep saving away for now. The dust collector will be the Oneida 5 HP version. I worry a lot about dust. When I get all of this, I will call the electrician who wireup up the garage intially.
Joe, I have a Powermatic jointer (8 inch) and planer (20 inch) and couldn't be happier. Also the same Sswstop. Got by with a Jet floor mounted drill press and 42-inch lathe. All are great tools. Much cheaper than Hammer. All are on wheels. My bandsaw is the Laguna 14-inch SUV model, 3 hp.
Another consideration would be machines from Harvey Woodworking. They are producing good machinery at a decent price.
Not an owner of any of those namebrands, but with my small shop, I wish I could ditch the lunchbox planer and 6" jointer and start over with planer/jointer combo machine.
I have an Oneida 3Hp dust collector. When you buy the ductwork from Oneida they will create a layout with each part identified. When I moved my shop to another state the laid it out again for free. I have the 3 Hp Sawstop and love it.
Thanks. There is no cost difference (at least online) between the 3 and 5 HP Oneida. Might as well get the 5 HP. I would likely get it anyway. Probably overkill for one machine running at a time.
Some years ago, before I had my shop, I was reading FWW and there was an ad that Laguna was running. For $10,000, you could have either a standard U.S. shop or a standard Euro shop. The former had table saw, jointer, planer, etc., the latter had a huge combo machine and a few smaller machines. I pondered that when setting up my own shop in a 400-square-foot garage. I came to the conclusion that the combo machine would eat up a good chunk of that floorpan and went with a Sawstop instead, placed by the garage door so I can open the door when ripping long boards. The Sawstop took up hardly any space, and the jointer, planer, etc., could be placed where most ergonomic. The Euro machines require changeovers--from jointer to planer, for instance--but not in the shop I ended up with. Couldn't be happier.
When one begins to compare tablesaws branded by Sawstop, Powermatic, Minimax, Hammer/Felder, you need to be sure that you are comparing apples with apples.
For a start, the traditional tablesaw is very different from a Euro slider. There is simply no comparison. Sliders are capable of just so much more. This is not about quality of finish - I compared a top of line SS and Hammer, and they were pretty much the same. But I bought the K3, and have never wanted to go back.
Using a slider is not like a tablesaw, and a prospective buyer needs to research how these are used. It can blow your mind!
I purchased a Hammer A3-31 about 7 years ago now. I wanted to get the widest jointer for the least money, and this Hammer combo gave me this … along with a superb planer/thicknesser with Silent Head and Digital Readout. For jointers, forget getting the longest bed - get the widest you can afford. (i wrote an article for Pop Wood about this several years ago).
I would say that MM and Hammer are on a par with quality and features. The choice will come down to which maker offers the better backup service. For me this was Felder, hands down.
The quality of Hammer has been superb in my experience, and I also have the N4400 bandsaw. This will run (tension) a 1” carbide resaw blade. That is saying a lot.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Thanks Derek. There is a good chance it will come down to customer service. If there is a problem, I want to know someone can help me. I have heard Felder/Hammer has a showroom 100 miles from me; as such, I would like to think that might give them an advantage. I saw you were able to compare SCI and Hammer. Do you have a feel for how PowerMatic stacks up against these two?
Joe, PM has a very small following in Australia, and Ihave not used one. From reports, past manufacturing has been to high standards. However, the issue to note is that, from a tablesaw/slider perspective, as far as I know, they do not have an offering in the latter camp. Therefore, the question is academic.
Regards from Perth
Derek
a vote for powermatic (no affiliation) - I have purchased several new pm tools recently (24in bandsaw, electronic drill press, drum sander), and although painfully expensive, I have found the build quality surprisingly high. I also have a hammer a3-41, and would say my new pm tools are of equal quality in every way, and HIGHER qual than my SS ics.
Thanks
If you have the cash and can find them, Northfield makes really high end stuff, industrial grade stuff.
Hello Joel, lots of good info that I will also use. I recently moved from a 420 sq ft garage shop in VA to what is to become my new 923 sq ft 3 1/2 car garage. In my last shop I chose my PM 2000B 3 hp table saw over the SS and don’t regret it one bit. When comparing the two almost 2 years ago, I was more impressed with the table quality of the PM over the SS. Yes, the SS has the safety feature. But, if you pay as close attention to sawing as you do with all your other machines you will be ok. It’s like driving a car, take your hands off the wheel and you will crash. Jointer. I am researching now for a new 8” helical head parallelogram jointer and it is down to the PM and the Grizzly. The FWW did a side be side comparison of 8” jointers and the Grizzly beat all others. Bandsaw: this comes down to what you plan to use it for. I currently have a Delta 14” saw I bought new back in 1991 and it is an awesome saw for smaller things like making boxes but no good for resawing. For that I plan to buy either the PM 1500 or the Laguna 18BX. Dust collection: definitely go with Oneida, they are hands down the best on the market and definitely more money, but worth your health. My new shop will have the V3000. It has a 3 hp motor and designed for shops with machines 4”- 6” connections. The new Supercell states it is 5 hp but in reality, there three smaller motors. But that saw has limitations that will not handle your shop tools. Remember to look at the decibel rating of machines when shopping. The V3000 is one of the quietest on the market at 74 db. Planers are a dedicated tool as well that depends on what you plan to make. Right now I am getting by with a Dewalt 13” with a helical head. But I will eventually upgrade that to at least a 15” down the road. Hope this helps. Pleas post some pics of your shop when completed, would love to see your design. I can’t move in to my new shop until next May when new house is done being built. I had fun designing the electrical to handle everything.
Thanks sf1988 for the info. At this point, I don't think I need a table saw. For what I want to do, I think I can get by with just a bandsaw. Mostly, I want to use it for long cuts and resawing. Going from all hand tools to having a bandsaw will be a huge upgrade. Rather recently, I need to cut up a bunch of 3/4" Baltic birch plywood. I tried using my handsaw and got tired and pulled out a corded jigsaw and felt like I was on top of the world just having that little luxury.
For dust collection, yes, Oneida is the direction I am considering. From all I have read, they have awesome customer service and will help me get what I need. Being a chemist and working on inhalation medicines, I understand the dangers of dust and am ok spending what I need to keep my lungs safe. My father didn't (to be fair of an era where less consideration on inhaling asbestors and saw dust) and now in his 80s wheezes a fair bit as a result.
Since the combo jointer planer unit is so costly, I am likely going to get a Dewalt 735 and just use it with the straight knives. Again, going from just hand planes, to having this (and using a sled if I need to remove twist) will be a huge upgrade.
All good problems. Here are some of the photos of my current shop. The machines I've mentioned will reside on the sides of the shop so that I can bring the cars in at night. We've got a big problem with homeless going into cars parked outside as well as folks stealing catalytic converters.
I don't know if you've pulled the trigger yet or still contemplating the decision, but I've been through the decision making process more than a few times...so maybe another 2 cents?
When I set up my first shop about 13 years ago it was just about the time when Sawstop had introduced the PCS model and it was an obvious choice for a newer ww'er like I was. I didn't regret it one bit...not only is it a great saw, but it was a breeze to assemble, tune, keep tuned, and the support was fantastic. Having the break mechanism provided great peace of mind as I was a new owner. In that same period of time I bought a Dewalt 735 lunch box planer and a cheaper 8" jointer from big company (who shall not be named not one you are considering). That 13" lunch box is great and I still keep around for some operations. The jointer did not work though...warranty nightmare...it was as useful for ww'ing as a boat-anchor. Learned an important lesson about buying cheap tools. I investigate the Minimax J/P along with the Hammer and then opted for the a Hammer A3-31...after ten years it has been an absolute joy to use.
One of the reasons I went the Hammer direction had to do with the spiral cutterhead vs. the Tersa (then the SCMI best head). Also, I am about an 1.25 hours from the Felder/Hammer location in Delaware and discovered that for a fee they will service the hammer machines. I have only had a few visits but they were worth every penny. (more on this in a minute). I added a used Rikon 14" bandsaw, and eventually a 3hp Oneida Cylclone and some duct.
Last year I moved to bigger shop and decided to add and subtract some machines. Though I love the sawstop and still use it daily, I decided to add a K3 slider with the outrigger. With the move I knew Id be doing a home's worth of kitchen cabs/bath vanities/built ins...and even with a track saw to break full sheets...doing plywood casework with the slider is a different ballgame. But, in the last year I find I use the sawstop more for dados and close joinery ops like tenons, bridle joints, etc. I did look at SCMI and some used options too. As I mentioned before, the service support from Hammer has been outstanding. When I bought the K3 I arranged for a local rigger to pick up the saw in Delaware (no state sales tax there) the rigger unloaded the saw in my shop and then I contracted Hammer to come commission the tool! An experienced tech was training a new guy so I watched him explain everything. Took a full day, but when they left the saw was within 2 thou over 6 feet.
A note about the used tool experience -- I bought the used Rikon and their support is great, but the tool had some quirks which I attribute to the previous owner's lack of care. It required A TON of fiddling any time a blade was changed as a result...I kept a milk crate to sit on right next to the saw. Knowing bandsaws as a somewhat simpler machine than saw a table saw or j/p I was willing to take the leap with 2 more older bandsaws...an ancient 1941 Tannewitz 24" bandsaw and a 1982 Powermatic 141 14". Both are solid cast iron bodies...stable, stiff, no vibration. Only 6" under the PM guide but for curve cutting its great. The Tanny has only 11" resew but since I only have 12' on the jointer...its cool. Both were bargains ($1200 and $500 respectively), but have required work, parts and often I think I would have been better off buying one new bandsaw (as you are considering)...one made in the Italian Centauro factory (I think both Laguna and SCM has models sourced from there).
On ducting...I tried going with Oneida for duct but wasn't happy with the design or the proposed pricing. I did go with Nordfab who have a free design service and couldn't be happier...the clamp together system. When I moved, added tools and redesigned...they worked out a new design and I only had to add some parts to what I had.
Thanks for the feedback. As for Felder vs. SCI, Felder has a West Coast showroom 100 miles from where I live. Since I started the post, I looked it up. As such, for the jointer planer combo, I will go with Felder for the reasons you mentioned. I am happy to pay the install/setup/initial how to use it fee or pay to have someone come out if there is a problem. Heck, for the last 20 years, I have had someone out every year for annual furnace preventative maintenance. As such, knowing I can have someone come out is worth it to me. Prior to having the coin saved up for that (likely $6Kish for the 16" one), will start with the DeWalt 735 with straight knives. For all I know, that may be enough for my needs and I never get the joiner planer combo.
As for the bandsaws, it will come down to the Powermatic 1500 or the Hammer equivalent. Either will likely work just fine for my needs. Will go and try out the Hammer bandsaw (same time will check out the jointer and planer).
Thanks for the tip on the ductwork regarding Oneida. I will talk to both companies you mentioned. The good news is that since I'm looking at only a few tools that will never be running at the same time, I really don't need much ductwork at all. Just a small line and then whatever is needed for the three tools I've mentioned plus some sort of dust collection for a future drill press.
All good problems to have. Considering I am over the moon when I use a jig saw instead of sawing by hand, just about any machine will make me happy. Also, since I plan to hand plane everything afterwards, I'm not too concerned about off the machine smoothness per se as long as it isn't crappy.
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