How do you design your pieces?
I hand draw mine. With the help of several aides I’ve developed over the years which, to some extent involve high tech, sort of….
I’ve tried numerous computer design programs and have been frustrated by the learning curve involved with someone’s preconceived notion of how it should be done. The drawings seemed cold to me.
Over the years I’ve developed several designs for components that I seem to reuse over and over again, with modifications in terms of size. A while back I started to copy various shapes onto clear acetate so I can trace them onto my drawings with carbon sheets underneath. I place tick marks on them for easy placement on the graph paper. Judiciously placed masking tape holds the acetate in place.
If I need a different size, I enlarge them on the computer to match. It seems like a laborious task, but in reality it isn’t. It helps to set a standard scale to work from. I use each square 1/8″ square of graph paper to represent 1/2 inch. This can result in multiple sheets taped together, but it works for me.
I made a drafting table with flourescent lights underneath so I could see overlays better. Patent pending!
Any thoughts on how you do it?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Replies
Bob,
I've gone to furniture stores with a sketch pad and tape measure and asked if I could get measurements of a specific piece of furniture that caught me eye and interest.
With only so much time a person has, getting the basic idea down in terms of balance, proportion of detailed sections, color and finish, and basic construction saves money, materials, and time. Plus, it also allows me to build a piece of personal furniture by seeing how their "Production Tooling" made a particular joint or molding, but using the equipment or tools I have to match it or get as close as possible....
Here is a writing secretary I built using ideas gained from spending a little time with my sketch pad and tape measure.
Bill
Edited 1/29/2007 10:55 pm ET by BilljustBill
Edited 1/29/2007 11:44 pm ET by BilljustBill
Instead of furniture stores, I suggest you visit museums or galleries to find designs and proportions to follow. (Or puruse the museum publications, you can almost toally reconstruct a piece from its picture and the main dimensions.) Manufactured furniture often misses the proportions and uses only the details of any given style. This doesn't only apply to traditional styles, but modern as well.
Of course with museums you can't touch without permision (usually in advance). Museums that don't have martketing agreements to sell reproductions from their collections are generally easiest to get permission. But, with a little advance work, I have been able to measure pieces directly in the Boston Museum of Fine Art, and in the Metropolitan Museum of Art (NYC), for example.
Edited 1/30/2007 3:42 am ET by SteveSchoene
Bob,
Doing mostly custom work, I'm usually given the overall design parameters, and left to work out the details, construction methods myself. Sometimes the design is as straightforward as "I want this chair", pointing to an object in a photo. Others it becomes a matter of , "it must fit into this space, and I want x, y, z,( functions or elements of design)".
Currently, I'm building a bathroom vanity, the style of which is to agree with an antique press which will be nearby. It has a serpentine front, the overall dimensions were provided by the client, as was the template for the sink cutout (altho the top is to be granite). It is sort of a kidney shape, with a flat side to fit against the wall. Doors and drawer fronts, and a flat panel all curved to match the profile of the front. The door panels and case apron have applied vine carving. Things like this, and chairs, get drawn full size, after a scaled drawing for customer approval. Patterns are generated from the full size drawing using carbon paper, and masonite, or similar, for templates. The "drafting table" for the full size drawing was a piece of plywood, which later became the case bottom.
Regards,
Ray
I start with rough free hand sketches (for complex jobs). I then use Inventor and/or Ecabinets to model it.
You are right the learning curve is tough. But it is definately faster for me than the old way. It probably takes me longer to model the job using CAD than actually sketching the elevation drawings. But Those hand sketches lacked a lot of information that I would later have to figure out in the shop. Also if the design changed alond the way (most of the time it does) I would usually make notations on the sketch rather than redraw the whole thing. All these notations, missing information, and the inevitable math errors resulted in me constantly haveing to double check the sketches. All of that is eliminated when using CAD.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Good point about the error catching aspect. I used to use AutoCAD and actually got quite good with it, but I soon digressed to drawing designs by hand. Also, it seemed that most if not all seemed to change during the construction process.
I spend a lot of time on deciding what joinery will be used, at least for the major components. Some are somwwhat no brainers, but certainly not all. It's when you get to a point during construction and you discover, Uh, oh, that isn't going to work!
Over the years those are becoming fewer and fewer, guess that's what they call experience!
Lately I've been thinking about using A-CAD to draw out components to scale and printing them on acetate so I can move them around easier. One thing that was enormously helpfl was that you could stretch objects to different sizes.
Hmmmmm, maybe I'll drop back 10................... Hopefully not having to punt!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I am always building for others, so once the job is approved there are no changes. Well, you know what I mean.
I forgot to mention that the biggest part of using CAD for my business is that it sells jobs like nothing else.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Mike,
For Kitchen cabinets, do you like Inventor or ecabinets best?
Mike D
Ecabinets is obviously better. Really any industry specific CAD program would be better. Modeling all the joinery in a kitchen cabinet using Inventor or Solid Works would be a nightmare.
I use Inventor for furniture that does not fit into Ecab's (or any other cabinet design package's) definition of a cabinet. Generally simple items like tables and chairs, where there isnt too many parts. I also use Inventor as a "part editor" for Ecabs. If I need to make a spiral flutted corner post, or an odd curved cabinet side or front then I make the parts in Inventor and use them in Ecabs. The problem with that is the constraints dont translate. But by the time I get to that point the sizes of every thing are figured out. I also use Inventor to "pre model" complex cabinet jobs. It is a lot faster to use the Parametric tools of a real 3D CAD program to develop the complicated shapes and get the layout, sizes and porportions ironed out, and then use those measurements to model the actual cabinets in Ecabs. Pluss I have the Inventor file ready to use as an accurate template to make the complex parts for use in Ecabs.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
"Modeling all the joinery in a kitchen cabinet using Inventor or Solid Works would be a nightmare."
While you can, normally it's not necessary to draw detailed joinery such as dovetails etc. If you wish to design all the detail joinery though, it will take a bit of time the first time only, as you can set up Solidworks to work with Excel worksheets, to maintain all the critical proportions, with any new cabinet sizes you enter into your worksheets. Normally when I do cabinet doors etc. it is not necessary to show the joinery as the dimensions are built into my shaper tooling and re-drawing this will be a waste of time.
Addicted to Solidworks, it cuts down my build time by half and eliminates all the errors one makes in the shop. Each part is designed individually and then assembled, meaning anything which does not fit within interference of a millionth of an inch is highlighted immediately. Once the drawings are done, as long as I remain accurate to 1/16" its a matter of making all the parts and assembly.
I have attached a file for those brave enough to download and unzip a 3MB file, which will download an executable raised panel drawing with a free version of E-Drawings. While this does not nearly represent the contrast and power of Solidworks, it gives you the ability to zoom in and look at the item from any angle, by rotating it. You can also show your client pretty close to what his final job will look like. You can print with color, or just drawing lines, by clicking the shadow button. This took me less than 10 minutes to draw in Solidworks initially, including the joinery and to reproduce in any size will take a few seconds of putting in a few numbers into Excel.
Except for carving, the last time I drew with pencil was in the seventies.
I never model dove tails or 5 piece door type joinery. I usually use full or half blind dados for the carcas. I know that you can set up SW or INV to somewhat automate the joinery process (and there are much better ways to do it in the newer releases than using spreadsheet tables). But Ecabs, Cabinet vision or what ever other cabinetry CAD software will do it a lot faster and better. With Ecabs all I have to do is make three clicks to change the material thickness or the joinery method, or most any other major changes. It would never be that simple in SW. Same is true with 5 piece doors. I pick the profiles (they have every thing I have ever seen, or you can easily make your own), the stile width and the door size (actually it will automatically size the door based on the desired overlay) and it will print out a cut list for all the doors. It would take a team of top notch CAD pros a lot of time to program that. And it still wouldn't be as good.
I use Inv. (have also used SW) to model the things like mortise and tennon joinery for tables or chairs and for one-off cabinet parts like a radiused end cap with inset curved glass panel doors (my current job). And because every type of those parts are(usually) completely different I can't use a template or adaptable part senario. Of course I keep all me old assemblies and every so often I can reuse an old part with a little tweaking, but my CAD design technique has improved a lot so those old part files are usually not well modeled.
But I am curious how you model your kitchen cabinets. I cant fathom how insanely difficult it would be to get all the joinery to be adaptable enough for use in the shop. In other words when the sheet goods show up at the shop and they are a 1/32 thinner than the modeled sheet goods, can you change one number and it automatically rebuild the whole kitchen and resize the joinery while maintaining the critical deminsions? I would really like to see one of those assemblies if you don't mind. You don't need to post the viewer with it. I can open SW assemblies in Inventor.
I really am interested in your techniques because I would like to be able to easily include cabinet joinery in my Inv models. Thank you.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Mike,
I think we are kind of on the same page. My SolidWorks experience comes from the plastics industry, where it originated for injection and blowmolding design, so I find it very easy to adapt and use it for anything else. I don't think it's much used in the wood working industry.
I would not know how to make it generate cut lists, would have to think about that...
I guess it will also not compete against application specific software as you mention.
I would not bother about 1/32" deviations in sheet goods when it comes to kitchen cabinets, as most builders are out by a few inches at times. When it comes to joinery in Solidworks, we decide on variable parameters in the part and then mathematically equate all the other dimensions to the variables, so you change one dimension and the rest is automatic.
Can you design 3D carving and wood turnings with E-Cab? I don't build too many kitchens, so I have not looked at these packages.
Ecabs has a very basic 3D editor. Really I think of it as a "2 1/2 D" editor. You can only perform operations on one plane. That is if you make a cut on the front of a panel you will not be able to rotate that part and cut it relative to another face. You can create custom tool profiles that work like the "sweep" feature in SW, but its path can not be 3D. You also cannot project or wrap sketches onto a collum, so spiral flutes and the like are not possible. features made in the editor cannot reference geometry ffrom other parts either. Having said that I have seen some Ecab users create som amazing stuff presumably with the built in editor.... but for the life of me I don't see how. Really the editior is for making holes and notches for odd hardware or instalation issues. More complex trim details like colums and applicae's are better done in SW or the like. Now days though many supliers offer their products in a .stl model for use in 3D CAD software. Especially the highend vent hoods, and appliance manufacturers. There is a seperate moulding maker that works very well and is very easy to use. Getting the moulding onto the cabinets is another story.... I have used Cabinet Vision (the only real competition to Ecab) enough to know that I like Ecabs better. It is a lot easier to make design changes to the cabinets. So if you need to make a new entertainment cabinet it is very easy to make major construction changes to the template you begin with. Others make it a lot harder. Cabinet vision is more refined and does things like applying molding and generating shop drawings better.
In solid Works or Inventor it is not too hard to get a cut list or at least a materials list. If you describe the materials you are using in the BOM list you can then go into the assembly and it will tell you amount you have used in volume, weight, or sqft. The easiest way to get it done though is to use a seperate CAM or Post/nesting package to do it automatically.
The 1/32" measurement I refer to is not the over all size of the cabinet, but to the thickness of the sheet goods. Plywood can vary a 1/16 and still be considered 3/4". If you model the cabinet using 3/4" material but the sheet goods are a 32nd under all the joinery completely changes. Even if you are using butt joints and dowels for the case work you still have to maintain faceframe over hang or flushness. If there are no faceframes then all the doors will change in size in order to maintain the correct reveal. So one way or another you would have to go through and change the thickness of every part and then change the joinery to reflect. I know that I could get it done in Inventor using function tables, I suspect that is what you mean by relating the measurements to a key variable demension. But man oh man that would suck big time in the real world.
So do you have a adaptive template for a cabinet assembly? If so I really would like to see it. In the next couple of days I will post a rendering of the kitchen I am doing in Inventor now. It will be a few weeks before I have the final renderings from Ecabinets. They are amazing. With a good computer (and a good open GL graphics card) you can make photo realistic renderings that blow away the customers.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Take a look at this url joinery in seconds with Inventor , there using the feature called Ilogic that is part of the software
http://www.youtube.com/user/widomtech
I sit down at a drafting table and draw it out with colored pencils.
I draw it mechanical style, applying dimensions to every facet. Then I take it and tape it on the wall of my shop for easy reference.
Rarely do the final dimensions match the original drawing but it works for me.
Edited 1/30/2007 7:16 pm ET by keving18
Question: Do you modify or at least add the changes as you go along? In case you want to make another?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Sure. I erase the old dimensions and apply the new ones.I have to admit the changes sometimes arise from mistakes I make, but more often they are adaptations made in the course of the work, as I encounter problems with the wood or other aesthetic considerations.The walls of my shop are decorated with my old drawings. It kind of serves as a visual chronicle of my own evolution. I never work from plans. I conjure the designs myself, based on the principles of the Mission aesthetic and the types of joinery I find appealing or wish to try.
The walls of my shop are decorated with my old drawings.
Awesome idea! Mind of I "borrow" it from you?
I take numerous pics of my projects as they progress from drawing to finished piece, stored on the PC. At the end, they are all archived onto CDs for future referance/amusement, etc.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Have at it, dude.
I use rough sketches, then quickly move on to SketchUp. I think it's a fantastic program, as it really does allow one to use "sketching skills" and quickly get a "roughed up" idea developed that can then be refined.
In fact, one has to resist the temptation to try and use CAD skills and other very exacting computer processes early in the SketchUp drawing process. If you allow the program to let you "sketch" and get forms and shapes onto the sketchboard without worrying about exact dimensions, at first, the creative process is much improved.
Yes, there is a learning curve. But only if you really insist on working the way CAD programs and vector programs work. The free tutorials show the "sketching" abilities very well.
I have the purchased version which goes for over $500 and that's very steep if you can't amortize the cost in real use. But the free version (Google SketchUp?) is reported to be every bit as powerful as the full version for use in designing furniture and such. And the SketchUp online forum is a wonderful resource for help and ideas.
Rich
Rich,
I have the free version. I'm going to give it a go. It's been so long since I used AutoCAD that I shouldn't have many problems refraining from the CAD instincts.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi Everyone,
I just finished Rev. 3 of my drwaings. I've been busy with other chores around the house, namely keeping things warm and pipes from freezing. We've been hit with some rather frigid weather, like -30 degrees (I'll figure out how to insert the symbol some day) F in the AM up here in Northern NH.
Anyway, here's a look at the latest. I guess my original has transformed into a piece that's decidedly not Queene Anne, but the wife likes it, and that's what counts. I'm still unsure about the apron and would like to tweak it a bit.
Please offer comments,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
hi -
the piece looks good. you asked for comments and i have a couple.
my thoughts are:
first, have you thought about removing the two secondary, non-centered "points" on the apron? after looking at it, to me the apron seems a bit busy at the bottom, and i wonder if the overall design might benefit from more simplicity on the apron, to balance out the complexity of what's on top.second, your hand drawing shows two slightly different weights and proportions to the legs. the left side leg seems a bit thin, and possibly too small. the right leg seems about right, with its "hump" (shoulder/knee?) a little higher, giving a better balance. on the left side, however, the curve formed by the inside of the left leg seems more continuous with the apron curve, and it feels right -- whereas the corresponding right-side curve seems discontinuous.my suggestion therefore would be: 1) remove the secondary points on the apron, and keep only the one central point; 2) beef up the left leg to match the right (esp its shoulder), and then 3) transfer the inside curve of the left leg/apron onto the right side. and consider thickening the legs a bit, or slightly exaggerating the hump shoulders -- with legs that short, it may help give the legs a feeling of more life, or springiness.as an interjection to the discussion, i do a LOT of sketches, whatever i'm designing 2d or 3d, mainly because the inaccuracies and imperfections of my hand with a pencil/pen can produce more potential options (and occasionally the perfect proportion right out of the gate) -- whereas computer-based drawings can force a proportion or a decision way too early, and can fix one into a false sense of what i'd call "empty tidiness". another benefit of sketching, especially loosely, is that a few days later, the mind can accidentally MISinterpret a line or sketch -- which in turn can generate NEW ideas, simply because the mind is not forced into too "tidy" an answer, too soon. i have had many a wonderful inspiration from these "misinterpretations" -- infact i have come to rely on them.anyway, your piece looks good -- best of luck with it. thanks for listening, and letting me intrude.
philip
sorry for the long delay in getting back to you. You definitely did not intrude, quite the contrary. I totally agree about the legs. I too am self taught for the most part and drawing is definitely not my expertise! I have since been playing with Sketchup and that makes it easier to get all parts the same proportions/dimensions, etc.
The thicker leg will be the way I will go. I have since lengthened the legs slightly on the bottom and have extended them to just under the top. This allows me to mortise and tenon the front, back and sides into the legs for much more strength. It also makes the piece more balanced!
The apron has been redesigned and simplified. I received several emails saying much the same as your post.
Many Thanks,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"I just finished Rev. 3 of my drwaings."
That's a great looking drawing, Bob. When I draw pieces like that I usually do sketches then draw full scale on 1/4 inch MDF. I use a RO sander as an eraser. For me, seeing the object full size, especially if it has curves, is really helpful.
Since I can't draw everything full size, I've spent many, many hours (years) learning to use a CAD program. I use TurboCAD and find that it is so much easier to sell a piece to a client if they actually know what it will look like!
For complex shapes you can't beat it. I attached examples of a project that will be built this month.
This discussion has been around for a while. Must be a good one , eh?
Anyway, I'm working on a new design that I've literally pulled outa my hat. Some may think I wear my hat on the wrong end though...... Haven't worked everything out yet and work on it once in a while when the spirit moves me.
Still refining the legs.
View ImageBob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Some may think I wear my hat on the wrong end though.. Hardly.
Almost everything I make is pulled outa my hat. I start with the space available for the project, a idea and away I go. I do sketch it out on paper and most of the time I do a mockup with cardboard for the tricky parts.
Bob , Hey is this thread in a time warp ?
Whats up with those legs ?? I think they are beautiful , how you using them , dining table ?
Sorry if you told already , is it your original design with a little highboy influence ?
You did a lot on those legs I'm on some simple ones in comparison .
here is a rough shot
regards from paradise dusty,Walnut is sweet
Wheres Frenchy when I need him , I have this urge to buy all the Black Walnut I can store .
dusty,
Yeah I guess it is in a time warp, but no matter. Getting some more good inputs.
The legs are just something I starte dfooling around with and yes there was/is a cabriole influence. The legs curve down from the knee in a cabriole shape but the ends are different. Here's another pic.
View Image
This one shows the bottom of the legs a little better. I'm making a scaled mock-up out of white cedar as it's very easy to shape. The whole thing will be white cedar and if it looks ok, I'll make a real one but use something more exotic, like cherry! :-) I'm also thinking about a maple and cherry mix of woods, just haven't gotten that far yet.
Next up is to work out the joinery for the apron to the legs, then mount the top. It will eventually be a coffee table and mebbe matching end tables.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/7/2009 6:52 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
I like the concept, and the flare at the bottom of the legs, Bob, but the transition at the "knee" doesn't seem as smooth as it might be. That might be just the effect of the angle at which we're looking at them, though.
Ralph,
Nope, you're right. I need to work more on that part. At this point I'm just looking to see if they're a go or no go. I'm thinking go here, with a bit more refining.
OK, so now for an excuse. When making them I was thinking it might be, uh different, if I could put a single twist on the squarish part of the end(s) but I chickened out............
Oh and back in the 70s I was a big fan of flare bottom trousers too.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/7/2009 7:17 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
" . . . I was thinking it might be, uh different, if I could put a single twist on the squarish part of the end(s) but I chickened out."Gee, I can't understand why. ;-) The twisted wrought wood look. That would be cool.As to bell bottoms, I'm hoping they won't come back into style until after I'm gone. Micro-mini skirts would be a different thing (for the young, only, of course).
RE: micro-mini come back (for the young only)
What's wrong? Do you find old women in "young" clothing distasteful? (ME TOO!! UGH!)
Regards,
Mack"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
Well, I suppose it's not really an age thing, but rather a matter of dimensional appropriateness. That is to say, the dimensions of the apparel are best kept in sync with the dimensions of the individual body. Sort of like older, balding men with long gray ponytails. ;-)
Bob, that's one of the purtiest octopuses I ever done seen.
But ya need to add 4 more legs.
Denny
Edited 11/10/2009 12:09 pm ET by blewcrowe
Sir.. A question.
Your first picture showing the curved foot. From the picture, I assume that the foot was made separate and then attached.
I ask because I wanted a Chinese style foot (sort of like you made) for my bed posts. I wanted to use the Chinese style foot but the cost of the wood to make the foot as an integral part of the post would have not been cost effective for my pocket book.
I still want to use a 'proper' foot. If your feet are separate, what type of joint did you use to assure strength?
Morning Will ,
The foot pictured is not separate , the blocks were glued on to a square post , then bandsawn and shaped and scraped .
You can add smallish blocks or parts to make a square post leg look like you want .
hope this helped Will let me know
regards from paradise dusty,but not today
Sorry Sir!
The foot pictured is not separate , the blocks were glued on to a square post. To me I am thinking as a old man does it is a seperate chunk of wood! NOT that that is bad.
Am I missing something? The blocks glued onto a square post! LOL.. I split a gut..
I was just asking what you did to attach the foot! A large dowel, just glue. Or a fancy joint!
Will , there is no reason you could not retro fit the bed posts with feet .
You may need to trim the posts shorter first .
A fat dowel and glue would hold it on .
I think I know the Oriental look you speak and it is easy to do , even now.
regards dusty
I was thinking of a LARGE metal dowel fixed with Epoxy but I was afraid it would NOT be FineWoodworking!
Bob,
Good luck. Do download the free tutorials, especially the animated introductory ones. And log onto the forums there.
If you run into trouble (you will), give a shout here and I'll try to help. I've always wanted to see a SketchUp discussion happen here. Now that the program is free, I hope a lot more people start using it! It's a great tool.
One word of beginning advice: Whenever you draw any object, anything, even the most primitive shape, such as a solid rectangle, select the entire object and "group" it (make it a "group").
The word "group," or the verb "to group," has a very different meaning in SketchUp than it does in any other graphics program. It means to make the object an independent, autonomous entity. If not "grouped," an object can lose properties in a frustrating, almost maddening way (if you are used to any other graphics program).
For instance, if 2 ungrouped rectangles, or solid rectangles are brought together so that their "walls" touch, the two walls instantly become a common wall to the 2 objects, which are then permantly "stuck" together. (Entities in SketchUp are "sticky"). If you are not prepared for this it will drive you crazy. Once you learn how to use the program, however, this sticky behavior is perfectly understandable, as are dozens of other SketchUp behaviors which at first seem completely wacky, if not downright stoopid! They are anything but.
Once the "Group" command is applied, an object is not "sticky" unless you want it to be and it's easier to start learning with objects that don't seem to have hot hide glue all over them!
Rich
I buy a fresh pad of 1/4" graph paper. Then I start with a very rough drawing of what I want. From that I decide on the dimensions of the piece. Then I draw a little more refined drawing. From that drawing I make drawings of each part that will be needed in the complete piece. Then I make a cutting list. Then I draw out scale drawings of ply and lumber to get an idea of how much wood I'll need to buy. Then I make detailed drawings of each part.
Almost all of these are taped to the wall of my shop as I build the piece. Sometimes it takes up the entire wall.
ChuckN and I have nothing of value to add to this discussion.
Hi Chuck,
From that I decide on the dimensions of the piece.
That's where I'm getting hung up. Does the Golden Rule apply to the whole piece, I'm assuming Yes? But some pieces that I've designed seem to defy this rule, especially where legs are involved.
I realize that, I'm self taught. Just trying to make some sense of this.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
You know, the really standout guys in the Arts and Crafts movement, like Wright and Mackintosh, really abused the Golden Rule. For instance, they would make chairs with obviously elongated back supports and spindles and such.I try not to get too hung up on dogma. That's why I draw it out to dimensions with colored pencils, so I have a good idea how it will look in the end.Being self-taught, like I am, has obvious disadvantages. It takes me forever to do something that could be otherwise accomplished in 5 minutes and I am always learning things the hard way. Nevertheless, since I haven't been taught by anyone, I tend to do things that are uniquely me because nobody ever told me I couldn't do it this way or that. So that's an advantage and I really like the way my pieces come out, mistakes and all.
Edited 2/1/2007 4:33 am ET by keving18
The golde rule is a very importaint concept... but it dosen't require a lot of thought. One of my favorite tricks is to ask someone to draw a rectangle. By default people will draw a Golden rectangle. My point is that if it looks good it is probably right. The golden poportion is more usefull (for me) when finding the scale for the smaller details. Sizing those heavy queen anne feet for example.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
OK. I'm going to reveal my inexperience. What is a Golden Rectangle and the Golden Rule?
The Golden Rule is to "treat others the way you would like to be treated."
Golden Rectangle, Golden Rule, Golden Ratio are all talking about the same thing. It is a ratio of roughly 1:1.6 . Basically it's a design that is pleasing to the eye that has been used throughout time. Say for instance you're designing a cabinet that is 20" wide. Under the golden ratio, the height of the cabinet should be 1.6 times your width or 32" tall. When drawn out on paper (20"w x 32"t) the rectangle fit's the golden ratio. You use that porportion to design other parts of your cabinet like the doors or the difference between the lower and upper cabinet heights. It's not a full proof method but one that should help you understand design.
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Mike
Edited 3/20/2007 7:32 pm ET by mvflaim
Edited 3/21/2007 9:26 am ET by mvflaim
Hi Mike,
Can the dimensions be reversed, but maintained, i.e. 32"W x 20"H? Also, I assume that the rule applies to all sections of the total piece so that when complete the entire piece maintains the 1:1.6 ratio?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
absolutely! the rectangle remains golden no matter what position you place it in. horizontal or vertical. so long as it fits the 1:1.6 ratio.
here's an example of the golden ratio used at the Parthenon. notice all the different sections fit into the 1:1.6 ratio.
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you don't even need a calculator to figure out the golden rectangle. if you draw a square on a piece of paper and mark the middle of one side of the square and connect that point to one of the corners with a compass (line a), when you swing the compass, the point where the arc crosses the horizontal axis is the length of your rectangle represented by the red line b on the chart below.
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Edited 3/21/2007 10:46 am ET by mvflaim
Edited 3/23/2007 1:16 pm ET by mvflaim
"Golden Rectangle, Golden Rule, Golden Ratio are all talking about the same thing."
I 'm sorry but this is not true. The Golden Ratio is used to construct a Golden Rectangle.
The Golden Rule has nothing to do with either of those.
If you want more info, here is a source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio
Sometimes in mathematics the golden ratio is also called the golden rule. When Cincinnati asked about the golden rectangle, golden rule, I assumed he was referring to the golden ratio. But you're right about the golden rule being "treat someone the way you want to be treated".
mike
Hi Mike,
I appreciate your input. If I understood you correctly you can apply the concept, for lack of a better way of putting it, to any and all parts of a furniture piece.
In other words if I appy the 1:1.6 Golden whatever to all parts of a furniture piece the end result will be 1:1.6.
Right?
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Yes, you can apply the concept anyway you want. The important thing to consider is form and function. You wouldn't want to add drawers or doors into your design just to meet the 1:1.6 ratio and not have the piece functional. I've seen cabinets where all aspects of the design incorporated the ratio that were incredibility beautiful but even if all you do is have the outside dimension meet the ratio, it's still considered golden.
mike
Mike,
That confirms my thoughts. When I design drawers/doors into a piece, I find it helpful to draw them separately and simply overlay them into the entire piece, then move them around till I get a pleasingly balanced look.
I'm trying to do this in Sketchup as well which will make it infinitley easier. Haven't looked into sizing objects/components yet but am sure there is a way.
Thanks for your help,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I'll have to try Sketchup. I've haven't heard of it until this thread. Is there a link you can send me?
Thanks for the clarification. I am thinking about a wall cabinet with a set of double doors. Obviously, the golden ratio could be applied to each door or to the doors as a pair. If one door is golden, then the pair would not be and vice versa.Also, I can't remember seeing very many drawer fronts that are 1:1.6 (a 4" high drawer front would be 6.5"wide). Obviously every rectangle can't be golden on a piece of furniture or a building. What is taught in classical design about situations like these?
Edited 4/30/2007 1:30 pm ET by Cincinnati
Cincinnati,
If I may, I humbly offer some ideas about designing your cabinet.
A famous architect once said, I am paraphrasing, "Good design is conceived to fit into the next larger context." What is the context, or environment, that your cabinet will "live" in? Design it to reflect the existing cabinets, or other fixtures or furniture it will be located near. Try taking a picture of the space where the cabinet will go, leave all the items that will be next to it in place. Lay tracing paper over the drawing and start sketching. Establish the size that you need first, height and width, and sketch in the doors. Place the rails where they feel right when compared to the surroundings. You should feel if the thing is going to be too big or small, skinny or fat. You may end up deciding to change the whole concept. Be flexible, don't marry the first idea you get.
Proportioning systems are very helpful but the context may over-rule the use of one because you would have a nice looking piece by itself, but have visual chaos when the piece is put where it is to go. I recommend you get ahold of "Designing Furniture" by Seth Stem. He covers a lot of ground, including several proportioning systems.
I also recommend that you make a set of golden section dividers for yourself. There are many ways to make a set of these, but I offer the following as an example, if nothing more. Cut 2 pieces of hardwood, 5 mm thick x 20mm wide x 300mm long. Clamp the pieces together, and drill a hole for a small bolt to act as a pivot, locate the hole's center 185.5mm from one end. Put in the bolt, it should fit snugly, use washers on both sides and a nylock nut. Tighten the nut to where you can pivot the 2 pieces with a little force, you want them to stay where you set them. Then sharpen the ends to form points. As you open the scissors like leaves of this device the distance between the 2 points at one end are always in golden section ratio to the distance between the 2 points at the other end. With this gizmo you can quickly check plans, drawings or photos to see if the golden ratio was used in the design. You will see pretty quickly that many designers, including F. L. Wright and L. C. Tiffany used the golden section with great regularity. You will also see that the golden rectangle gets much less playing time than the section does. Keep that in mind when you are designing. You may use the dividers to help you design with, but you may want to make a drafting triangle for yourself if you want greater precision. Use plexi-glass and make it whatever size you like. Get the proportions from carefully drawing a square and pulling an arc as was shown on this strand in an earlier post by a more computer savvy contributor.
Also, I believe that proportioning systems get their 'power' from our desire to see "unity in variety". There is much more to good design than can be said in a post like this. I think Mr. Seth's book will help you along, it has been a help to me. Good luck to you, and, please, post a picture of your project.
Randy
Edited 6/19/2007 5:59 am ET by prosopis
In the office: I sketch concepts on whatever is handy at the time. After a day or more, if the concept still has merit, I'll move it to graph paper and work out proportion. When I'm happy, I move from graph paper to the computer and develop scale drawings.
With the client: Client meetings are focused on style and size. They see rough style sketches until they see something they like. We note their preferred (or required) dimensions. They'll go through a round (or two) of changes and then they see the final draft.
In the shop: I've never drawn joinery, or specific parts, and my cutlists are painfully simple. More often than not I'll change an item mid-stream. But, once settled, every part with a curve or peculiarity gets a pattern - either 1/2' MDF or hardboard. I don't have drawings on my walls but I do have patterns. Hundreds of them. Ovals for tops and for inlays, bowfronts, serpentines, leg profiles, etc...
beach,
If you could take the time to have a look at my post My Contemporary Queene,....... I would appreciate it. I've had several suggestions regarding the proportions and apron, but the wife likes my design, to some extent. My intent was to create a Queene Anne interpretation. You'll find several Revisions, I'm up to Rev. 3.
I'm looking for inputs, thoughts and ideas Many folks have contributed and I am grateful. Maybe I'm thinking too much and should be in the shop making sawdust.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
With a little blood mixed in.
I should start trading lessons in Sketchup for woodworking tutorials. I've just recently started to get serious about woodworking but I know about drafting and design. I started out 30 years ago on a drafting board, 20 years ago I started to use Autocad. 2 years ago I started to use Sketchup and it is what I use today for all my woodworking projects.
I've posted to a number of the other threads recently. Here is a repeat of the design attached. This model took me a total of about 4 hours and a good part of that was figuring out measurements. More importantly my son-in-law who knows nothing about computers has become very good at Sketchup in just 2 months of using it. He has designed his whole house already...a couple times in fact...:)
All that being said there is also something about sitting down with a sketch pad. Something that I also still do at the very beginning. Once I get beyond just the concept stage though a 3D model is the way to go. You get to build the piece before you build it. Every joint is figured out and virtually dry fit.
Just my 2 cents...
Bob Babcock
Edited 3/19/2007 11:03 pm ET by Stoneaxe
Hi Bob,
I've been playing with Sketchup for a little over a month now and am getting better results all the time. I'm almost ready to adopt it for designing. It's a great tool.
Thanks for you response/inputs,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
This is one of the reasons why I have drifted over to using SketchUp versus other CAD tools (QuickCad, TurboCad Pro) because the experimenting with the design is so much easier with SketchUp.
A couple tips that I have found very useful:- design each part individually and make every part you design into a group and/or a component.
This makes editing the model significantly easier and, once you are happy with the model, makes it easier to pull the parts out of the model to take measurements- If you're going to have multiple copies of a part, make them components. This way, if you need to make changes, all the copies change once you edit the component. Note that you can use components even if some of the copies are mirror images of the component.- Purely for convenience, since you are creating groups & components, you might as well label them all so that when you look at the part tree the various bits and pieces make sense.I've created a couple of models with this approach that I think are quite nice:http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/cldetails?mid=170bc4a3503f71fc2c663e0cd78d2738
StoneaxeYour background sounds like mine - drafting board (but never a drafting machine - RATS), then a move to DtaCAD (very similar to AutoCAD) for designing building floor plans. I never moved to 3D on that program, however, I use it often to determine angles, or arc lengths, etc. But I find it cumbersome to do real creative design. I can try various proportions etc. but have not progressed beyond that.So - what is it that makes SketchUp so good for our furniture design work? How, where can I try it?Frosty
Easy, google "sketchup". It's now owned by Google and when you get a chance, check out the image warehouse for furniture. I've been playing with it for a little over a month and it's getting better and better all the time. Either that or I'm getting to know it better!
A word of caution, actually two.
1. Foeget how you used your old CAD software. The interface is entirely different, but not that tuff to get used to.
2. Create objects/components, then apply them to your drawings. You'll see why very quickly!
http://sketchup.google.com/
Have fun and I think you'll like it,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/22/2007 11:13 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Thanks! i'll check it out when i get home...
I Love this site!
Mike,
I hope you have a lot of bandwidth, i.e. DSL at least. The download is nearly 32 Meg!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
i'm good in that respect...I should have no problems.... thanks
Thanks. I will download it. Have you found any need to go to the Pro version?Frosty
Hello Frosty,
I'm going to be posting some screen capture videos of Sketchup techniques. I'll do something simple 1st. Maybe a box joint. I'll start a new thread when I get it done and post notices to all the CAD threads. Maybe I'll get ambitious. I want to redesign the chair I'm going to build for my living room. Maybe I should just track that design.
I might actually get something done on this as soon as this weekend so keep an eye out and let me know if it's worth doing.
To see the oldest woodworking tool ever used on my property....that I know of....see the attached.
Regards,
Bob Babcock
Bob,That is "way cool"! What part of the country do you live in that an object like that is there? Is there an estimate of the age?Jerry Frost
I live just outside Plymouth, MA. It is between 5,000 and 8,000 years old. I found it in 1989, actually hit it with my lawnmower. You can see the scratch dead center in the photo. I own a small treefarm and was mowing amongst the trees. I almost threw it away into the woods.
An extension of a roadway was put in about 1/4 mile from my house just recently. They did an archeological investigation along the route in 1998 and found a burial site. I had an archeological dig behind my house for about a year. I spoke with the archeologist in charge and shared my find. That is how I know its age. They found an axe almost identical to mine but finely polished, spears, arrow heads, etc. all buried in the grave. I saw photos, the workmanship was amazing. The polish still glowed after 5,000 or more years.
There is a natural spring that runs about 1/4 mile from my house. I was told that the area was used as a summer camp for thousands of years.
BobThanks for the info. Very interesting. You are lucky.Jerry
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