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A curiosity question for you. I’ve been practicing dovetails lately and am getting better but my emphasis has been on getting a better fit, not on speed. Now that I’ve gone through the procedure a number of times I’m beginning to wonder just how quickly those of you who have real skill can cut tight fitting dovetails. I know, how do you define skill. I guess I’m thinking about those who have cut thousands and make a living doing it. What standards do you set for yourselves?
Thanks
Tris
Replies
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Two hours per joint, less 5% for each additional repetition of the same joint, therefore, in a drawer, 2 X lap dovetail= 2 X 2 hrs. = 4 hrs. - 10% = 0.4 hrs, therefore 3.5 hrs. to the nearest half hour. Same calculation for the back through dovetails. Therefore, 1 drawer = 7 hrs.
To make a drawer with handcut dovetails from squared parts complete, including adding the slips, fitting the bottom and the hardware, and shooting to fit, etc., = 8 hrs., less 5% per each additional drawer up to a maximum of 30%. So, as an example, 6 drawers in a cabinet equals 8 hr.s each = 48 hrs., minus the maximum discount of 30% (6 X 5%) = 33.5 hrs. to the nearest half hour. That's the rate I charge for such a job. It's pretty darned accurate too!! ;-) Slainte, RJ.
*Thanks Sgian, now I have something to shoot for. One more question for you? Do you vary your times for drawers of different sizes? (I'm making the assumption that a larger drawer would require you to cut more pins and tails ... or tails and pins; I'm still trying to decide which order makes more sense)Thanks again,Tris
*Well, Tris, in drawers I tend to cut the tails first, but that's personal preference. Yes, it does make a difference on how deep the drawer is because it results in a different number of dovetail/pin combinations that have to be cut. I gave you no more than my pricing formula. Its usefulness is essentially that it gives me a fair average for any drawer job. In a chest of drawers, you lose a bit on some- the tall ones- and gain a bit on others- the short ones. For long dovetails, such as pricing a chest made with through dovetails, charge 1 hour per linear foot (or 300 mm) subject to the 5% discounts per additional foot, or part thereof, e.g., charge 2 hrs., for 14" length of dovetailing, less 10% = 1.5 hrs. to the nearest half, but chances are in a chest in which you are carcase dovetailing four corners, minus the discount, i.e., 4 corners at 14" long X 2 hrs = 8 hrs - 20% = 6.5 hrs to the nearest half hour. For the same chest with lap, secret mitre, or secret lap dovetailing charge 2 hrs. per linear foot (or 300 mm), subject to the 5% discounts I outlined earlier. these are hand cut examples, by the way, which is what you aked about. Slainte, RJ.
*Sgian, thanks again, (again).What is a lap dovetail? I'm guessing it's a half-blind dovetail but as I tell my students (math and science not woodworking obviously) if you don't ask you'll never know. Cheers, Tris
*Yes, Half blind is US terminology for lap dovetail. That old thing; two nations separated by a common language. ;-) Is a dado a housing,......or is a dado any old slot, and what is a channel? What is a trenched sliding dovetail, as opposed to a sliding dovetail? Very precise names that exactly describe a joint so that no-one can mistake the description for something else, or at least they are precise descriptions where I'm from, but apparently not so in the US. Slainte, RJ.
*Sgian, Very precise names that exactly describe a joint so that no-one can mistake the description for something else.Interesting you should say this. When I moved to the south from the west I found it silly that common construction terminology was so different that confusion reigned on the job-site. Yes, the confusion was mostly mine until I would ask a question about a specific such as, "How long are the trimmers?" they would look at me funny and wonder what is a trimmer. OR, "You need to block the three bays next to the king stud. What's a king stud? They call both, a Liner. They call trusses, Beams. I could go on.After a while I got used to it and always having to ask to clarify which they were talking about. When in Rome, do as the Roman's do? I thought the south had messed up the English language, and here you are telling me we as america have messed it up according to the originators. Like I said, Interesting! Learn something new everyday! This morning I'll go to work and deal with people who seem to have taken the English language and made there own with it. Just when I was getting to learn it. By the way, How do you pronounce your name? Jack.
*b From the Workshop of Ron BreseI have met people from London that I absolutely could not understand, I have met people from Liverpool and could not tell if they were talking or clearing their throat, and I have met people from Scotland that had such a draw they sounded as if they were from Alabama. So I don't understand how it is they we Americans could mess up a language that changes every 50 miles down the road in the country of it's origin. I do believe that we just have several more versions of the English language as they do in Great Britain.Ron
*Jack, My handle? Sgi, as in ski, with a *g*, un, Doo, so Sgian Dubh. It's just a handle. I get a bit of a kick out of the English language and the way its used differently around the world. Slainte, RJ.
*Perhaps the term,"messed it up" is not the proper way to say it. Does anybody remember the original Star Trek episode where Kirk and crew land on a planet where the people had so badly changed the pronounciation of the words that it took the whole episode before Kirk found out it was the Constitution of the USA? One can call it, say it, (whatever IT is) anything they want. The problem starts when somebody else doesn't know what the hell you're talking about!
*I can cut dovetails for the average drawer (consisting of a drawer 6 inches deep, with half lap dovetails on the front, and through dovetails on the back) in about ¾ of an hour, from prepared stock. An orderly approach helps to cut the time, such as completing each step on all alike parts, at the same time. The Frank Klauss video shows this quite clearly, although I could not get use to the way he stacks the sides up. I have always thought I was a little slow, but judging from the replies, I’m doing much better than I thought. My speed improved when I broke down and bought some of the fairly expensive Japanese dovetail chisels. Their tapered cross section and incredible edge holding ability certainly made a difference. Sometimes if the wood for the drawer front is extremely hard, I cheat and use a router freehand to remove the bulk of the waste, for the half-blind dovetails. I posted a photo of a Goddard Townsend Lowboy I made showing the dovetails.
*TrisKnow what you mean, I have always thought I was slow but then I don't have alot of cracks to fill. I still layout and saw by hand but my instructor at school took a hand tool course with Allen Peters and the trick was using a Elu 96 plunge router with fence and 1/8 straight cutter across the end of the board. Set the cutter to the shoulder line and plunge in to cut the shoulder from both sides, this quickly removes most of the waste and with practice leaves just fine tuning by hand. you are still "handcutting" the dovetails but this really speeds up multiples. I have never seen an article on this technique, sounds complicated but in practice is quite simple. E-mail me at gtwilkins@excite if you need clarification.So long from the Kootenays gtw
*I can make a simple drawer box, with full dovetails, cut by hand, from board to assembled box, in about 2 hours. If half-blind dovetails, add about 1/2 hr. I haven't made thousands, probably more like dozens, and I don't go for absolute perfection. More like a good fit with hand-made character. A single dovetail joint, with 2 to 4 tails, takes probably 15 minutes. On the other hand, dovetailing a large blanket chest where all corners are dovetailed and on display can take all day just to get the fit right. That's why I don't do many of those!
*Thanks guys for all your replies.It seems I've got a bit more practicing to do if I'm going to get up to speed.Here's another question. European style dovetail saw or dozuki. Which do you guys prefer and why?gtw, Kootenays, eh? Have you got snow yet? Here on Vancouver Island our 10 month rainy season is upon us.Thanks againTris
*I know what a trench is compared to a dado...what's a channel? (and I had a Scots cabinetmaking instructor).
*A groove, or slit--------going with the grain. You're just jerking my chain. ;-) Slainte, RJ
*On some American antiques you'll see that when the maker cut the pins (on half blind dovetails), he cut past the line where the pin ends. The 1-1.5" kerfs are now visible. This would have made cleaning up around the pin easier and faster. I use the dozuki: thin kerf and very sharp. The Japanwoodworker has one with a blade thickness of .008, kerf .011, and 32 tpi (#18.210.0; $39.75). They do sell dozukis with a rip-pattern tooth (11, 12, & 13 tpi). I also have their RazorSaw, which they call the "finest cutting, moderately priced saw available" (26 tpi is $44.45, #19.210.0). Try one.
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