Probably a can of worms to open here, but how important is it to face joint wider than say 6″?
I have an 8″ jointer and hardly ever use up all 8 inches. Because of the prices of lumber, I purchase rough and rip everything to size, prior to power face jointing and power planing. Means thicker boards and less sawdust.
I use only KD lumber of high quality and find that if I face joint a typical 8″ wide board 4/4, by the time it’s perfectly flat, and then thickness plane the other side, it’s too thin. So, for a table top, I would edge joint only, glue up the whole thing and then hand plane to get it flat, while it is secured to it’s base. The end result is almost always 1/8″ to 3/16″ thicker, while adding a couple of hours healthy exercise.
I can’t imagine using a 14″ or 16″ jointer?
I’m about 80% done with a job taking $1400 of Black Cherry and hate to see all the $$$ ending up in that dust collecter, then the green waste bin.
Edited 5/4/2005 3:25 pm ET by Jellyrug
Replies
Well I would say that you should be asking how important is it to face joint. If you are asking why face joint wider than 6" then why face joint below 6". If your wood ends up to thin, then [perhaps] it is too cupped in the first place. I feel there is just as much reason to face joint 8" as there is 6" and below. I bought my jointer [DJ20] mainly because of the length more than the width. I do however frequently use all 8" when face jointing. Peter
If you face joint below 6", you don't remove much material, from a normal relatively straight board.
If you are doing a table top, say 6' long and you face joint a relatively straight board, 8" wide, you remove a lot of material. Then you thickness plane and you remove more. Then you glue-up and you flatten the top again removing more. If you use 5/4 and are willing to create a lot of sawdust, this is OK, but if you use 4/4 the top gets too thin, by comparison.
Lumber is never perfectly straight and flat and the bigger the pieces you mill, the more BF, you dump into the dust collector.
If you don't remove much material from a normal relatively straight board 6" wide, then you wouldn't remove much material from a normal relatively straight board 8" wide. It is all relative to how flat your board is to start. So having said that, it is just as relative to face joint a 4" board as a 8" board. Peter
"So having said that, it is just as relative to face joint a 4" board as a 8" board."
If you have an 8" board, 8/4 and 5' long, with a gradual cup measured as 1/4" over the North East corner of the board, to the South West corner of the board, you have to make the whole board 1/4" thinner plus a bit on the other side to get it flat. This is not abnormal cupping for good lumber. If you now rip this board down the middle, you will have two 4" wide boards, a 1/4" plus a little bit thinner than the original lumber.
If you rip the board first, down the middle and now face joint the two 4" boards, you will remove probably less than 1/8" plus a litlle on the other side off the original lumber and end up with thicker boards.
This is not an opinion, it's just good old geometry math.
Edited 5/4/2005 6:23 pm ET by Jellyrug
Jelly, I am wondering, do you buy your lumber already surfaced? It sound like you must. I normally rough cut my parts to size or slightly oversize, the surface that, while leaving it a little thicker for a few days, before final dressing. I like to pride myself in being able to recognize which boards may cause a problem if they contain stress. I regularly use boards as wide as 20" or more without ripping and re-gluing them without problems, and would hate the thought of adding unnecessary glue-lines.
Root,
My last lot which was around 140 Bdft of very nice Cherry was rough sawn. Don't have too many choices here in Central California.
I don't rip wide boards either, but don't use them that often. If I do, I glue up rough boards and then hand plane.
The last table top I did was expensive Brazilian Satin wood and with careful planning I actually straightened a few of the bowed boards by matching carfully and using a joint bit for alignment. This was a 5' x 5' square top and the whole hand planing thing took around half a day.
I just find that if I do table top with 4/4, using my power jointer and planer, before glue up, I end up around 3/4" with the finsihed top, as opposed to 7/8" going the longer route.
I face joint every piece of wood I use for cabinets & furniture. I do not use wood wider than 5" If it is wider than that I rip it into narrow pieces & glue into wider pieces. I do this because narrow pieces do not warp & cup like wide pieces do.
I do not understand your statement that when you face joint & plane the pieces come out to thin, but when you hand plane it does not. If that is the case then you should be taking liter cuts with the jointer & planer.
By the way I have a 16" jointer. It is no different than using a narrower jointer. It is just wider & longer. Like Peter I bought it for the long tables.
"I do not understand your statement that when you face joint & plane the pieces come out to thin, but when you hand plane it does not. If that is the case then you should be taking liter cuts with the jointer & planer."
If you get everything perfectly flat and square (as good as is practical), prior to gluing up boards, once you have glued-up, you have to flatten again, for various reasons. Means you remove even more wood. If you don't face joint and plane and only do the flattening once, after glue up, you will remove less wood and end up with thicker boards.
Interesting reply, I'm always struggling with how "accurate", is accurate enough when working with wood.
When you flatten one face on a jointer, you don't need to completely surface the entire face before planing. You just need to take off the high spots and get about 75% of the surface flat enough to reference to the planer table. Choosing your stock carefully and reducing the length to a manageable size also helps eliminate extra work. There's no sense in planing a 16' board if all you need is 4', or a 12" wide one if you only need 3" for the project.
If you do production work, a large jointer has the power and capacity to handle heavy cuts, long lengths and wide pieces. There is a wide variety of projects that we do and some require heavy industrial equipment. A typical 8" jointer would be useless if you need to surface 12" x 12" beams. A 16" jointer will still handle small stock and you have the extra advantage of moving the fence to a sharper section of blades.
You can add extension tables to small jointers that will handle edge work of any length but not many customers can afford to pay you to hand plane 2000LF of wide planking. It's one thing if you only build one or two small pieces of furniture but if you have an order for 50 large tables, hand planing doesn't make sense economically or physically.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Jelly.......
I don't understand. You say you use KD lumber of "high quality". If it's such high quality, it shouldn't need much of surfacing at all. Seems to me it it's high quality as you say,it wouldn't be cupped, bowed, warped, twisted etc. and would only need a couple of light passes over the jointer to flatten one surface and a couple of light passes through the thickness planer. You should end upwith about 7/8" stock.
My sources here in Cental California are limited and I always hand select, take home and sticker. It's real dry here, so moisture is no problem.
What is the maximum out of true, square, or cupp, you would expect on a typical 4/4 x 9" wide, 8' long Cherry, or Walnut board before you buy?
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