How interested would you be in readin…
MBerger
| Posted in Project Plans/CAD Software on
How interested would you be in reading an article about SketchUp and other computer-based drawing programs?
- Very Interested
- Somewhat Interested
- Neutral
- Not Interested
You will be able to change your vote.
Replies
I'm not familiar with the program. I have seen some drawing type programs and found them to have a learning curve beyond my time or abilities.
Although several other magazines have published such an article in the last year or two, I'd still be interested in a FWW article. But I think it'd be important to cover some programs that aren't that well-known. The GizmoLab program comes to mind. It's specifically designed for woodworkers, and is less than $200 for the full version.
If there are any other woodwork-oriented programs lurking out there, they should be included, IMHO.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I would suggest that you set up a panel of people who are not familiar with CAD programs, give them some set problems and access to each of the different software programs. The results would be more interesting and reflective of my needs than a specialist taking them apart and rating them.
The last article had the writer acquiring a handful of programs and trying them for a while.
I would recommend having (at the minimum) input for each program from a very experienced user, who could relate why and what they like about a particular program. For example, something about DesignCAD that I like is the ability to type in dimensions for a 3D object, instead of having to draw them out with the mouse (SketchUp has a similar feature), and the ability to move a piece also by typing in coordinates. Such ease of use tools might not be apparent to someone who learns a program quickly for the purpose of creating an article.
But by all means, another article would be good. CAD programs are very underutilized by WWers. I liked how Gary Katz, in his recent FHB article,mentioned using SketchUp as a tool to communicate with clients. I've used it this way as well, and it can be invaluable. It helped me to convince a client that a design change was necessary, when words and a reluctant sales person were not helping.
M B, I played with Auto Cad for years to manage facilities, space planning, some changes to layer items and partitions but could NEVER master drawing from scratch. The learning curve was an almost flat line that went to the horizon.
A woodworker program would be "a good thing" if it is easy to sketch with dimensions, enter a table or list of parts with dimensions and get a cut list . Paddy
Please find one that's simple enough for The average WW, And about the cost of a good book.
I was given and tried micrografx designer and became frustrated with it and gave up. I do have Woodshop calculator from http://www.woodcalc.com Very easy for figuring raised panel doors and faceframes. It's KISS. Simple discs like it would be great, even I can use it.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Edited 4/25/2007 7:29 pm ET by BruceS
I think it may be a little presumptuous to assume that the "average woodworker" would only be interested in something "simple".
How about "useful", "efficient", "powerful", and "effective" as well? Why does everything have to be dumbed-down to the lowest common denominator?
seven thousand nine hundred reasons.
I totally agree with useful, efficient, powerful and efficient. I have mastered my 4X4 PU. But I'am not about to tackle A Boeing 474. Same goes for computer programs. Give me the rough overall measurements and I can probably "snap" up a drawing quicker with a pencil and scale. I've bought plans and prints and have found stupid mistakes and wasted lumber in the process of using "engineered plans". Simple process can be good.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Matt,
I used AutoCAD for years and got quite comfortable with it. The learning curve was STEEP! And, if you don't use it on a regular basis, read daily, you lose some efficiency. I further suspect that this is true of most if not all CAD type packages.
What I'm getting at is that I feel if Taunton wants to embark on this endeavor please do not try to be all inclusive and all knowing about all the offerings. Take one at a time and explore all its capablities! It's too confusing to compare them all at once.
For starters I would begin with Sketchup! Theres a great resource already in here.
Just my 2¢,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/25/2007 7:49 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
If you do a piece on Sketchup, I would imagine your natural inclination would be to have it authored by someone who is already thoroughly familiar with various CAD programs.
I think that would be a mistake, mainly because such a person is likely to make certain assumptions and gloss over the rudimentary details that would be important for most of us who know nothing about all this. And I would hazard a guess that would include more than 90% of your readers.
I think it would be preferable to pick one of your smartest woodworkers (who knows how to explain things well), have them learn the program, and then explain it to the rest of us.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
If this article does come to pass, be sure to include applicability to the Apple OS.
Frosty
While I think it would be useful, there are far too many programs to cover in a single article, a regular column in the magazine would be better. Over time we would have a better idea on what kind of CAD or Modeling program to buy and how to use them. Even blending traditional drawing and designing with the new could be covered. For example. Recently there was a discussion in Breaktime ( http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=88184.1 ) about a program that can can dimension from digital pictures. It could be reviewed and compared to see if it is a useful/better method of getting measurements from antiques without risking them or for the pro that has to make matching pieces in a clients home. If it can't be a regular part of Fine Woodworking then how about an annual issue like the Tools and Shops or the Tool Review issues?
I've been using general 3D Cad and industry specific design ware for a couple years now. I am profecient in Solid Works, Master CAM, Cabinet Vision / Works and Sketch Up; and I am an advanced user of Auto Desk Inventor and Ecabinets.
The most importaint thing that you can stress in the article is that all CAD software has a steep learning curve. Unfortunately unless the author of the article has in depth experience using the software he/she will not be able to give an acurate campairison. I think that the best thing to do is to find a few experienced users from different aspects of the craft; ie: profesional cabinet makers, furniture designers (not builders), furniture makers, hobbiest wood workers, and industry groups. As another poster very smartly pointed out, experienced users tend to be convinced that the product they use is the "best". But having them provide concrete information as to why. For me the most importaint feature is the ability to create "adaptive" features and parts. These are parts that change their sizes relative to another part (think mortice and tennon). That is the kind of feature that really saves a lot of time for the experienced user.
I would love to see yall do an in depth compairison of the various options. But please don't treat it like a bandsaw or jointer compairison. Each of these products offers a very different set of advantages and draw backs that can make them more suitable for one user or another. And each of them requires a lot of time to become profecient enough to make an asesment.
I look forward to your article.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Edited 4/28/2007 11:08 am ET by mudman
I vote against. I'd rather read furniture and wood working design and technique articles. This is no more a wood working specific application than a chalk board or an Etch-A-Sketch:)
That said, I watched the 18 minute SketchUp intro and they make it very clear that SketchUp is not a CAD program. It will give you nice 3D renderings relatively easily but won't produce working drawings with dimensions. For that you'll still need to go back to the drawing board or a CAD program. $495 buys a lot of pencils and sketch pads.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Hi El,
I can understand your concern but it isn't very well founded. First I should show my bias...I'm one of the contributors to the new blog.
1. This isn't going to take anything away from the other great content on FWW. It's just another tool that if you learn to use will help in your efforts in the workshop.
2. The folks at Sketchup say its not a CAD program and you say you can't produce working drawings. They are right...it's not a CAD program, it's much easier to use than any CAD software out there. You are incorrect however....working, dimensioned drawings are not only possible but easy to do....I even print full size templates straight from the software.
3. It's free for the non-commercial version.
The software is what you make of it. I do have an extensive CAD background, but that isn't what made Sketchup easy to use. I had to unlearn some habits actually. My son-in-law 24 who, until I showed him Sketchup, hated computers, now has his whole house designed...years of projects for the future laid out in detail. I didn't teach him the software...just showed him where the online tutorials are and off he went.....and other than Sketchup and browsing the web he is completely computer illiterate.
The ability to virtually produce the piece you are interested in building allows for design flexibility before you ever cut wood. Take a look at the chair-leg dimension video in the Sketchup tutorials thread and then tell me this isn't a valuable design tool. There is no way a pencil and sketch pad can compare....except for possibly in the very early conceptual stage.
If you take the time to learn the software....you will save yourself time, and wood in the long run, and even in the not-so-long run.
Edited 5/2/2007 12:02 am ET by Stoneaxe
I also have a bias as I started manual drafting in Jr. High in 1970 and did so professionally until I moved into Project Management in the early 80's. I was on the bleeding edge of CAD and I think it is a necessity in a production environment. Given that SketchUp is not CAD it is closer to CAD than my Mayline 4-poster and Vemco machine by a long shot:)
"This isn't going to take anything away from the other great content on FWW" - Actually it will, since each issue is finite and every page used is a page used. It's like saying I gave 110%. There is no such thing, there's only a 100% of anything.
"You are incorrect however....working, dimensioned drawings are not only possible" - I didn't see that in the short demo or on the main page, I stand corrected if you say so.
"It's free for the non-commercial version." - Been there done that. Free software versions are usually so limited that they become useless. I tried a freebie panel cutting layout generating program a few years ago and a few hours in found it wouldn't even handle a relatively simple entertainment cabintet. Besides I've learned the hard way that free often means spyware. Just try to down load much of anything that's free without accepting cookies.
The absence of a single 23 hole line boring machine review or napkin holder how-to article in FWW's entire history back to Isuue #1 leads me to conclude that FWW caters mostly to hobiest and purists that produce high-end one-offs. At least I put my self in that camp. To me it just seems somewhere between heresy and sacrilidge to sanitise and/or automate the design process with a computer. But then again I'm in the engineering project management businees and I spend more than enough time jacked-in to a computer all day as it is. So maybe it's just too close to the day job. I find the time on the board nearly as cathardic as the time making sawdust. But that's probably just me, so to each their own. John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
"It's free for the non-commercial version." - Been there done that. Free software versions are usually so limited that they become useless. I tried a freebie panel cutting layout generating program a few years ago and a few hours in found it wouldn't even handle a relatively simple entertainment cabintet. Besides I've learned the hard way that free often means spyware. Just try to down load much of anything that's free without accepting cookies.
Elcoholic, the limitations of the free version of SketchUp as compared to the Pro version are actually quite few. In the free version you can't export DXF, DWG, PDF, AVI or a few other file formats. You can export screen resolution JPGs and PNGs which will certainly satisfy the average woodworker. The free version doesn't come with Layout which is a presentation package. It's very handy but you certainly don't need it. Finally, the free version doesn't display toolbars created as part of Ruby script plugins which are made by third party code writers.
As far as drawing is considered though, there isn't anything you can do with the $495 version that you can't with the free version.
I think you're discounting a valuable tool for woodworkers.
And there's no spyware in it either.
Dave
Edited to add,
Could you work from a drawing like this? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/weekender410/SketchUp%20Demos/working0.jpg This is a screen grab and the resolution isn't that great but it is still readable.
Edited 5/7/2007 2:16 pm ET by DaveRichards
Edited 5/7/2007 2:22 pm ET by DaveRichards
Sounds like we have similar backgrounds in many ways...I too started on a board in the early 70's. I still have a Mayline electric lighttable with a Vemco...former employer gave it to me when we switched to CAD in 86. I understand the need to feel a pencil in your hands (my draftsmans callus is still well defined) but for me it's about the creativity...Sketchup is an extraordinary tool for enhancing creativity.
I guess you can make an argument that it does take something away from the hard copy magazine (I was thinking it referred to the online version only but I was probably mistaken). I think from the response though it's a mute point...looks overwhelmingly in favor.
Much of what will be done on Sketchup is going to be online in the Design, Click, Build, blog http://blogs.taunton.com/n/blogs/blog.aspx?webtag=fw-designforum and I know that the resources directed at the blog are minor. It's more a labor of love than anything. It certainly doesn't negatively effect the other online content.
The free version is far from useless. It is more than capable enough for woodworking...especially the hobbyist. And if you have a production shop and you're not using some kind of design software, you're losing money. I understand your concerns for cookies but it seems like a small price to pay for such good software.
As I said I can understand your feelings for the pencil...but I've also come too feel that way about designing in Sketchup. It's fun like no other CAD software is and allows for further design exploration than by pencil alone. Designs for me usual start with a sketch pad in a comfortable chair.....brandy and cigar optional....once I have it rough I switch to Sketchup.
I can detail all the joinery....explore design changes....create exploded view dimensioned drawings and templates....more design changes, no big deal....and easily show the finished design in it's native surroundings....all in the same time it would take just to detail it, the 1st time, by pencil (and I'm very fast on a board)....and that's with a brandy and cigar.
Too close to the day job?....I use Autocad and Sketchup every day...I think I have a CRT tan...but you're right..it is the individual choice...but using Sketchup lets me spend less time designing and more time making sawdust.
Edited 5/16/2007 6:49 pm ET by Treefarmer
I've been busy and away for a while, hence the slow reply. Maybe I will give it a go. We're close to being on the same page. Swap that brandy for a nice Islay Single Malt and I'm there.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Edited 6/16/2007 1:54 am by Elcoholic
I voted yes, but I'd go even further.I wish I could vote for using ONLY sketchup. I think the percentage that would vote with me would be far greater than those voting for any other program.
Matt,
IMHO a key piece of information that will be critical to your reading audience is how quick, easy, etc., each program is to learn for the NON sophisticated computer user.
Publishing an article by someone who is already an accomplished user of such programs is probably going to be of little use. The real outcome will be measured in the long run, are readers who buy said recommended program and begin to try to learn the recommended program still using it 6 months later -- or did they finally give up?
Alan - planesaw
As an older woodworker, I'm not sure how useful it would be to some of us. There seems to be a "generation gap" in computer literacy. The younger generation seem to be quite comfortable with computer technology and associated programs. Some of us "old school" struggle just to get online.
For those that are "savvy", go for it. Just don't change everything and leave us in the dust.
To each his own I guess.
Mighty Oak
Mighty,
I understand. I am 60 and in my work use Word, internet, and email daily, along with PowerPoint and Excel less frequently. My dad is 85 and is on the computer daily with email, internet, genealogy, photo programs, etc., etc., every day. But, I agree that it is a generational thing to a great extent. Interestingly, my mother used computers for the accounting in my dad's business. When she retired she immediately went back to her trusted #2 pencil. She still uses a pencil today. Don't think you could pay her to use a computer.
My feedback to Matt is more focused on the software. I am not a programmer so I don't bring any of those skills to the keyboard. CAD programs are not something I have used so I don't have any collateral skills.
Hopefully there is a program that is relatively simple with an easy learning curve. If some sophisticated CAD user reviews the programs it will have a completely different viewpoint than if someone who does not have CAD experience.
And, as you said, hopefully they don't leave us behind.
Alan - planesaw
Cad is a tool. But there are so many flavors available that it is impossible for you to even to begin to discuss it on an intelligent level, that you should leave it alone.
If someone wants to learn cad, most community colleges offer courses in it.
Stick to what the magazines core mission is: imparting excellent knowledge on woodworking.
Some articles, or a monthly series of articles on the technical aspects of joint design would be more beneficial. There are real engineering reasons why every joint works, and all of the traditional joints could be covered one at a time. Just a few pages, how to design with it, and how to make it.
You have several authors who are engineers, an analysis of why dovetails are made at a 1:7 ratio, or an analysis of mortise and tenon joints, to determine if the traditional 1/3 rule is really right for all wood, or mixed species joints. Some straight forward equations that the reader could plug the strength values of the wood they are planning to use into, to produce real design values would be more helpful than a superficial treatment of cad.
Taunton published a book, "Encyclopedia of Wood Joints", by Wolfram Graubner. Start at the front and do a couple of pages each issue on one joint and how to make it. I admit a lot of the joints are Japanese framing joints, they are still elegant. And, many, if not most of us would like to know how they are laid out and cut.
I am not interested in an article on Sketchup simply because I'm a full time architect and I use the program every day. I've been using it heavily since it came out so I don't think there is much a magazine article could teach me that I don't already know.
With that being said, I think its the best 3d modeling software out there right now. It's perfect for woodworking projects. Nothing can produce results faster for rapid visualization of a project. On top of that its the most intuitive easy to learn 3d modeling software I've ever used and I've used Autocad, Arris, Archicad, 3d studio max, FormZ & Blender, etc.
As stated before the free version should not keep you from at least trying it. We have a 5 user license in the office here and when your the 6th+ person using Sketchup it reverts back to the capabilities of the free version. I've rarely used the few features that the pro version has. I've only used Layout once and we don't often export out of Sketchup. For a woodworker the free version is all you need.
I was actually surprised when google made Sketchup available free with as many features as it has. I recommend it for any woodworker out there.
TittleK
I have to ask, you are familiar with both Sketchup and other cad software. Are you suggesting that Sketchup could replace existing Cad software or used in conjuntion as a 3d mockup tool?Genius is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration.
Sketchup is first and foremost a 3d tool. For projects as small as furniture design it could easily be used to produce 2d drawings as well.But in a more general sense no, I did not mean that Sketchup could replace 2d CAD Software but be used in conjunction with it.
You are a full time archetect, and you use Sketch Up as your primary tool? That sounds very .... well sketchy. heh heh. I work around designers and archetects on amlost every job now days. I doubt that any of them have even heard of sketch up. Why arent you using Auto Desk Archetectual Desktop like 90% of the other pros? It seems that using SketchUp in the Archatechual design industry would be like using a Mac in the business software development comunity. Constant compatibility issues, not to mention the lack of tools.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
I never said Sketchup is our primary tool. Our primary tool is our brain. For almost all our design documents we do use 2D CAD software. But I would still not call it our primary tool. We still build study models out of foam core and museum board. We still use pens, loads of trace, and vellum. We also still create watercolor renderings. Sketchup is only one tool in our arsenal. Comparing Sketchup to ADT is like comparing apples to oranges. Sketchup is mostly a design tool where ADT or any 2D CAD software is a documentation tool.If your an architect and you haven't heard of Sketchup then your living under a rock.
Edited 5/17/2007 10:42 am ET by tittlek
I get it. Sorry for sounding so skeptical. I thought that you were using SketchUp for final drawings and renderings. I am sure that you can see why I thought that would be difficult to pull off. I use a similar 3D modeling / engineering solution approach. I use Autodesk Inventor to mock up complex layouts (architectural millwork and cabinetry) because I can very (relatively) quickly go from job site measurements to dimensionally accurate 3D models. Because of Inventors very powerful ability to create adaptive parts and features I can easily change the major dimensions and the details (door overlay, reveals, parts defined by associations) will automatically update, or Adapt. After everything looks right and the renderings are approved I use the dimensions straight from the 3D models to create the cabinets and panels in Ecabinets or Cabinet Vision. The great thing about this setup is that I can easily import objects into Ecabinets or CV as .stl files. For example the project I am on now involves a lot of glass and steel parts that cannot be easily designed in Ecabinets. But I already have the exact part in Inventor ready to go. Furthermore I can send the files to the sheet metal fabricator (Inventor has a powerful sheet metal utility) and the glass artist. The sheet metal shop likes the drawings so much that they are asking me to design for their shop. Though, I think that I am too slow to do it.
What do you know and think about Inventor? And how does that compair to SU?
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
One major difference between Inventor and Sketchup. Price... Sketchup $0....Inventor $7,900...just slightly beyond the majority of the FWW audience pocketbook. Inventor is certainly a possibility in a production shop but an unlikely tool for the hobbyist. The other major difference is ease of use.
As far as producing finished drawings in Sketchup. For the average and even not-so-average woodworker it is more than capable enough. How much more do you need than dimensioned exploded view drawings and full size templates? I know from experience it is very capable of producing finished renderings suitable for professional presentation.
Great Idea... lookin forward to it.
My lack of interest in the article is a skewed vote. I support a program called MicroStation, which is similar to AutoCAD (their direct competition) As many have said, it takes regular use to use most Computer Design/Drafting programs. More than most woodworkers would use. I would suggest any article contains input from first time users AND experienced users. The right experienced user can suggest a better way of approaching the information. For instance, most CAD program classes teach generic "here is how you draw a line, here is how you copy a line, delete it, etc." type items. I have found it better to teach someone: "To draw a board, use this command, provide a height, width, length, and location with these steps." Repetitively teach them the tools by placing/creating objects they are familiar with. don't say "To provide a second point 3' away you would..." Instead, try "To draw a 3' long line, start the line, then key in the distance by (insert best distance method for given program)." Then, when you show them how to make a different shape, you revisit the same method. By stating that distances are input using a given method out of context, it make is difficult for most to apply the concept. By placing it in context, and then saying "Oh, by the way, the same is true for ___" they end up applying it to more situations.
All that said, and understand that I can create a render ready 3D model of most woodworking projects in under 2 hours, I still sketch all of my projects out on paper, and only turn to a program when I want to figure out a complex angle or need a better drawing for someone to be able to visualize the design.
Don't let this discourage anyone who wants to use the programs. Just use it as food for thought and maybe even provide a warning for people not to be discouraged when they face any learning curve.
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