Personally, the compartmentalizing of these woodworking subjects hidden beneath the marketing/sales home page lost my interest. I just came on for the first time since navigating through the maze during the 1st week they changed it and confirmed my 1st impression, too confusing and diffused.
This is somewhat confirmed by ForestGirl’s call for traffic to the finishing page.
Bummer.
Replies
The Member's Only discussions are essentially unused.
Ernie Conover (of turning fame) has recently posted an answer to a question about router planes. I don't doubt that he knows about router planes, but to say that's not the highest, best use of Ernie would be the understatement of the century.
I've been wondering about that, myself - lol.
I know that my usage has definitely gone down. I cruise thru the "General Discussion" folder every day but rarely look at any of the others.
I haven't seen any info from the sysop's regarding traffic into the various folders, but Forestgirl's post makes be suspect that lots of us are sticking to the "General Discussion" folder.
My post was made on a weekend when I really needed some input and there wasn't much going on in the S&T section.
That being said, this sometimes-perceived "company girl" went off the rails yesterday when she discovered that the Advanced Search forces you to search the individual forums separately!! (e.g., Tools, Materials, Projects etc.) Sysop's got a very curt email in their inbox. I'm pretty tolerant, but that really p*&#!d me off.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I must admit that with all the clicking now required to access the forums labelled General, Tools, Skills & Techniques, Materials, Projects and Workshop I tend to just look at what appears in my screen when I enter each area.
If it's down below what I can see without scrolling to it I don't bother.
Needless to say I never click on Members Only because I'm not going to pay for information I probably already know. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 12/16/2005 4:13 pm by SgianDubh
Well, I admit to hanging around in lurk mode from time to time even though I said on the first day of this ill-begotten mess that I probably would no longer be a "regular" -- and I projected a loss of community due to the fragmentation of topics. I was wrong about that, because the fragmentation hasn't generally occured as everyone pretty much ignores the topical divisions and posts here, just like in the old days. So community transcends the (I hate say it) Aristotelian structure. By the way -- where have the former regulars gone?
Maybe I'm obtuse but until someone pointed it out to me I didn't realize that some of the other forums had been moved to different pages (by clicking on the menu at the top).
I also don't like the search function like Forestgirl noted, and the other day there were posts that wouldn't even come up. Maybe I had unknowingly entered one of the other forums and that is why it wouldn't pull up the posts I was looking for, but I don't think so. They certainly need to tweak a few things.
At first I thought there was really no change from the old site, but after posting a piece in the gallery, and replying several times, to different threads, I'd say the "traffic" is way down, which doesn't bode well for the future of the site. The topics I've replied to don't seem to have remained viewable for long. I also noticed that it is a rather hit and miss issue with how long any thread stays on the chart.
I had also planned on buying the trial membership, but I have decided not to. I must say those that immediately saw problems with the new site were far more perceptive than I am.
Rob Millard
I agree with most responses to your post. It's a nuisance having to negotiate through 6 forums to get an overview of what members are talking about to-day. The frustration is starting to show when members post messages about Tools, Skills & Techniques, Materials etc under General.
I made a post earlier to-day under Tools however it has not shown up to-night. I will repost under GENERAL and maybe get the input I want.
Interesting. Nine posts on this subject but no response from the sysop folks. I'm beginning to wonder if they're listening - or just hoping that the whole thing blows over. - lol
Just look at the number of responses in most of the discussions and you will get your answer! In the 30 most-recent discussions, the average is around 10 reponses. Two of the biggest discussions are one about how to type the degree symbol (59 responses) and one about the roundness of man-hole covers (46 responses)!! Take those out of the average and you have somewhere around 5 or 6 responses per discussion.
I think it's insulting to ask magazine subscribers to cough up another $60 a year for the "privilege" of getting information they already paid for.
I've been a member of the Fine Woodworking online community for something like six years, and I know my way around online forums. But I get lost trying to find what I'm looking for when I sign on now. The whole thing is just way overdone. It reminds me of some comanies I have worked for, where marketers who have never used a product decide how to descibe it to the public.
I've had offline communications with several longstanding members who have said they will no longer contribute to Knots. And I just can't imagine that too many new people will be joining in on this fiasco. So where does that leave us?
Edited 12/17/2005 10:04 am ET by MatthewSchenker
Matthew,
I missed the manhole discussion ( thankfully). I've not been on the knots forum for as long as you have, but I've spent a lot of time here. This summer I was sick for a while and did not post anything, I finally came back only to find the site I had used wasn't there. I'm very disappointed to see this happen.
Rob Millard
I also tend to agree with the other post , however I seem to live I an area (panhandle of Florida) that is lacking in any kind of training for woodworker wannabies (me) . I know that the video tips along with everyone' s fine advice on this forum has been an invaluable aid to me and my wwing.
Thanks Marvin
I think that hobbiest woodworking is huge in the USA and FWW will always be out there ahead of that wave. They should be, because they helped to create it. My personal opinion/ theory is that hobbiest woodworking piggy-backed onto the housing boom that has been happening for about three decades now in the US. I think that in the years after WWII Americans were seriously in love with the automobile and in the past three decades Americans have been seriously in love with bigger, better, more luxurious houses and home improvement. I would point to the growth of the "Big Box" hardware stores and the fact that the housing sector of the economy still smokes when the rest of the economy tanks as evidence of the validity of my theory. Making furniture in your shop on the weekend, the "weekend woodworking warrior," the garage shop full of tools, etc., just went along with the housing boom. FWW was there when it started and the pub of record for a long time. For those reasons, I don't feel cheated or shocked that they want to sell their content on the internet. It's one of those "everybody else is doing it, why shouldn't we?" deals. I think they deserve to make money off of it. I hope it doesn't seriously fracture the old "knots" gang, though.
The pay-per-view deal doesn't work for me personally because its more fun just to read the back issues in my complete collection of FWW. I am working on the first 50 issues now - fascinating stuff to peek into the window at 30 years ago!
Well I hope some of this post makes sense to you , Matthew - if not, well heck, think of it as just like one of your political posts! Just kidding, just kidding. I'm more liberal now, anyway - the further I get away from military retirement, the more I can revisit some liberal ideas from college.
Take care. BTW: Did you buy a new drill press, yet?
The question may have been asked and answered-but sorry I may have read it and forgotten it, what with the Shenkergate Saga, the Chisel FireFight and other stuff of late-but why was Knots fixed when it was never broke in the first place?
If I have missed the answer, some one please tell me to shuttup and tell me the answer.Philip Marcou
Very good point, Philip. It seemed to be working fine, everyone was content with the product. Why not just add the "members only" part for a pay area, an added area for marketing purposes, and leave everything else as is?
Like taking a pet to the vet to get "fixed". It was working fine, what you're doing is " breaking" it.
Just a thought.
So many different people responding but most with the same response. I have been a lurker and sometime poster for several years and agree with most that the community thread is now fragmented. It's like walking into a cafe or bar with lots of rooms, each with it's own cashier and getting the pulse of what's happening requires a bit of footwork. And, with both the cafe and this forum, the parts are not greater than the whole.
For me, I enjoy the community aspect of these sites, the banter back and forth between frequent posters along with the occassional question or insight I can provide. It truly is like coming for a cup of coffee to your favorite cafe and just listening to what is on people's minds. For my money now, Breaktime still has that feel and Knots unfortunately has lost 'it'.
As I said on another thread, the person who came up with this idea had better be able to walk into his/her boss's office and say "Look at all the money we are making from the new FWNetwork" or be looking for a job.
Thought I'd jump in before this discussion got too long...
as far as the Knots forum goes, I think you have all done a fine job answering this question. As a result, this coming week we are going to start work moving Knots back to a single forum (or something close to that). Please stand by for more details from sysop next week because I don't know any of the specifics.
Now I'm off to Rockefeller Center to take a photo of the baby in front of the big tree on her first christmas.
Matt Berger
Managing Editor
FineWoodworkingNetwork.com
Matt,
About 6-7 years ago I picked off a pine cone from the top of the tree...it was about 5:30 AM and the crew was geting ready to lift the tree into place...thought my 13 year old daughter would be so thrilled. Oh well, at least one of us thought it was special...lol. Good luck with your adventure.
Matt ---
THANK YOU!!!
Matt,
Thanks for the update, this is good news. In this day and age simpler is better. It is overwhelming enough trying to pick a mutual fund or stock these days. Having choices is a good thing, but there is a point where the choices become excessive and turns people away.
Heck, the other day I must have spent 5 minutes staring at a wall of shampoo in the grocery store, after not finding "my" shampoo, I was faced with looking at other choices.....one for dry hair, oily hair, oily but dry hair, normal hair, abnormal hair, for oily but dry hair with conditioner, shampoo for Wednesdays, shampoo for Wednesdays for him......you get the picture. I am hoping that next time they will have a bottle that says "shampoo for woodworkers", or better yet "shampoo for SteveB".
The Apple Ipods are a marvel of engineering simplicity. Apple "gets it".
Well, I strayed a little off topic, but have hopefully made my point.
Thanks again for listening to everyone here.
Steve B.
That's good news, Matt. Thanks.
--
Todd
Thanks, Matt.I'd not been here since the change, and frankly found the new format less than easy to access and confusing to navigate.Pretty much the same comments apply to Breaktime.Also, please have someone check to see if my account is enabled to access the Café and similar fora on the other boards. I'd appreciate it.Be well, best of the season to you.Leon
Reading your response to the complaints about the new Knots format makes me wonder if your aren't reacting to the squeaky wheels. Looking at the visitors list, there are some 50 readers this Sunday morning between 8AM and 9:30AM. That's quite a bit of traffic. I only recognize a handful of names in that list. Of all the woodworking forums out there, Knots is certainly the busiest. I think you need a variety of topic headings in order to handle the numbers. Unfortunately, folks don't post questions in the appropriate category. Policing the topic areas would be a difficult task. Perhaps a pop up window explaining the protocol to posters would help with organization or have a choice of topic headings from which to choose. Could it be that having the General topic is part of the problem? 12 of the first 20 current posts should be in a specific topic area. I think this haphazard arrangement is what has contributed to the navigation issues. I'd much rather surf the net than watch TV, Knots is one of my favorite forms of entertainment. I often bookmark sites for reference. If I put them all in one heading, it would take forever to find the ones on router bits, for example. I break them down into specific areas and refine them further as the numbers grow. Not unlike what you have tried to do. I know there are many first time users that may be new to the computer world, they start in reading and want to participate within a few minutes. Just look at some of the similar questions that are in a topic area. It's obvious the folks haven't read very far down the page, let alone, explored the archives. Knotheads quickly advise posters to visit Breaktime with construction questions. In the "edit post" section at the bottom of the question, would a "move to such and such topic area" offer an organizational alternative? Experienced users could advise posters to move their questions to the appropriate category. Another area that is a bit perplexing is the time a post stays up. Some seem to linger forever while others disappear rather quickly. I get the feeling that this is regulated by whether the post answers have been read or not. The pull down window offers ten different choices. Is this really necessary? Any unread messages to me show up in my e-mail, there isn't much change from 2 days ago, I'm not sure why I would want to see unread messages or those that I've ignored, nor would I single out those with polls or attachments. The high interest category makes sense but other than that and All, the others seem superfluous. It must use a lot of memory to keep track of those I've recently seen for every individual. The gallery gets so few contributions, I think it should be a category all it's own and pictures should stay up. Perhaps you are already assigning more bandwidth to this area but pictures in the archives from 2002 are gone.I don't have a problem with lots of posts and many topic headings, just the disorganization. It would be nice to be able to see all of the responses when you are making a comment instead of just the one you are responding to. You have to open your response in a separate window if you want to see the complete topic you are commenting on. The "Members Only" area smacks of exclusivity. For those of us that have all the magazines, paying for a past article isn't necessary. Not every article is worth paying for. If you need to pay the rent, I don't have any issues with advertising. The format at Woodweb seems fine, to me, and there is a source of supply and information right on the page. A spell check feature as you type would also be useful. How about a book review area? I don't see a link area. I wouldn't mind seeing a preview area for the magazine or some of Taunton's publications either. The current header takes too much room.I think some of the issues with Knots relate to the posters inexperience. If before submitting a question, posters needed to choose a topic area and those areas had a link to the archives, we may not see the same old questions asked several times. Right now it's like looking around the shop for a tool you didn't put back in it's place.Happy Holidays
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Hi Hammer,
I agree with you about the benefit of more topics and getting users to post to the correct folders. But I don't think we made it very easy for this to happen. So our goal is to continue offering a wider variety of folders than before but organize them better. Additionally, the new system doesn't allow sysop and me to move discussions from folder to folder as we could before so we plan to reinstate that feature to help manage the folders better.
More to come.
Matt
The only way to get the new format to work, and it's not that bad, is for the sysops to move threads to their correct folders. Barring this, everything will end up in the General folder.
Frankly, this needed to happen even under the old format. There's always been a tendency to post everything in the General folder.
Other forums have power tool, hand tool, carving, and turning forums and no sub-folders underneath. For instance, all hand tool questions are asked on the hand tool forum. There are no subfolders for "equipment," "joinery," etc. within the hand tool folder.
If I'm interested in an issue regarding hand tool joinery I'd rather just look in the hand tool forum for an answer instead of a "Joinery" folder that also has questions about power tool joinery.
Think about it.
Hammer, I was pretty much with you, willing to wait and let things sort themselves out. But when I discovered that the Search function had to be conducted separately for each individual forum (Tools, Projects, Workshop, etc.) and could not be changed that was it for me. Renders the whole structure useless, IMHO (straw that broke the camel's back as it were).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Forestgirl,
welcome over to the darkside of reactionary Luddites------ glad to have you with us!!!!
Stephen
ROFL!!! They should have known better than to MESS WITH MY SEARCH capabilities!!!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 12/20/2005 12:37 pm by forestgirl
Won't ever happen but .............. it wouldn't hurt my feelings if they went back to WebX. From a sysop's perspective Dispero may be better but but from this user's viewpoint- no way.
Glad to see Mr. Berger's reply that they are going to try to reverse the change.
It is always good to remember New Coke when one is tempted to change or "improve" a good thing.
Alan - planesaw
Like most of us OLD folks.. I loved it the 'WAY IT WAS'
Well thank god it isn't just me! .. I sent an email with my concerns just yesterday. I was a little reluctant to send it at first but my concerns now seem justified.
So, the way I figure it, we should all just create a master post in the General forum and then post links to all of our posts in the individual forums. In this way, our master post would act as table of contents. If you decided to do something like that you would probably want to always make sure your individual posts had a link back to the master post so you wouldn't get lost if you strayed too far from home.
Just think of the possibilities, if someone responded poorly to one of your posts you could re-direct the unsuspecting individual to some far away land where the might never be heard from again.
Having a little experience in the IT field, my guess is that either the database administrator designed the website (everything is broken down to the nth detail and all fields visible in the query) or the actuaries did the design based on 1,000,000 year probability which is about how long it would take to me to memorize where all my posts went.
Pleasant but confused this time.
Steve
"You can either be smart or pleasant, I was once smart but now I'm pleasant. I like being pleasant better." Jimmy Stewart - Harvey
Given how big this thread is now, you might have missed this post:http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=33320.19
Things will gradually get back to something like "normal" after the holidays, it sounds like. There's another thread somewhere in which Matt gives a few more details.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thanks and Merry Christmas.Steve
"You can either be smart or pleasant, I was once smart but now I'm pleasant. I like being pleasant better." Jimmy Stewart - Harvey
Sounds like I'm in the one half of one percent, but I like the expanded number of folders and don't find the time necessary to browse them excessive, even with my dial-up service.Don't know how difficult it would be technically, but an option on the initial page specifying threads that have been posted/updated in the last ___ days (2, 5, 10, 30, 60, 90) would be very helpful to keep up on traffic.My only gripe is that if I want to expand a folder, the order of the other folders in the category constantly changes. I have to be careful to go through them alphabetically not to miss anything.We all greatly appreciate the significant investment in time and $$$ Taunton makes for this forum.
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