howdy all,
i’m finishing my (oak) handrail. i’ve done a number of searches here and the finish i chose was a mix of watco and poly @ 3:1. i stained the piece very dark, then applied the mix to the rail. it has been about a day and a half and some of the areas that aren’t end grain are still “tacky”. my intention was to wait till it was dry and wet sand with another coat.
how long seems long enough to realized i goofed? should it take this long to dry?
thanks everyone.
Replies
sorry but that's a poor choice of finish. the watco dries at a much slower rate, than the urethane, perhaps even 'crazing' the finish.
best to wipe off as much as possible with paint thinner, let dry and try anew, watco, then when dry, topcoat.
Expert since 10 am.
"Expert since 10 am." thats funny.so you don't think it will ever dry? if it did, could i then just use watco? it actually looks really good right now....real smooth....but tacky. when you say paint thinner, do you mean mineral spirits? sorry, new at this, this technique (found on this site) seemed like a good one. you know, poly and kids.thanks for the help
i didn't say it wouldn't dry, i said you might get 'crazing' or alligatoring.a mess to repair.
paint thinner=mineral spiritsExpert since 10 am.
thanks!
It sounds like you have some chemistry conflict issues. I don't know the MSDS on Watco (never use it) but it sounds like you have too much oil by combining an oil-base poly and a danish oil stain. You can try to wipe it off with thinners but I don't think poly is too cooperative when it is dry. Paint thinner and mineral spirits are NOT the same thing. Paint thinner has chemicals in it to allow flow out of alkyd based paints. I would wait a little longer and see if it will dry. The tacky spots may have a greater concentration of oil and take longer to dry. In the future a oil-based stain with varnish topcoats is pretty bulletproof for the beginner. Fabulon or Bona Traffic are excellent finishes for a hand rail and the are both water- based, but really are getting good reviews. If you use oil-based varnishs thin the first coat 1:1 and sand with 320, then this the second coat 2:1 and sand with 320. On the third coat thin 4:1. Using the water-based finishes eliminates thinning, but NOT sanding. You should be applying this mixture with a lint free rag on a handrail. I would a rag with the water based finishes also. You may be in trouble without stripping what you have though, let it sit a while, but don't hold your breath.
Edited 2/15/2007 7:43 am ET by terrylee86
i suppose i just needed to be patient!thanks
just wanted to let you know that i did the varnish application.....after i stripped it all.it looks terrific....thank you
merlvern,
How did you apply your Watco/poly concoction? It should not appear wet or tacky at all a day and a half after application. You should have wiped it as dry as possible within about 30 minutes of application (keeping it wet until then). But even leaving finish on the surface, it should definitely be hard to the touch by now. Although hard to the touch, (if it were) it would hardly be cured, that will take weeks more. And at least several coats would be needed, several days apart, with light sanding in between If it were hard by now.
It sounds like there is an incompatibility in your mixture. Worse, you have chosen a finishing method that will stand up very poorly to abrasion by little (and big) hands using the handrail. Yes, several full coats of poly would be durable, but not the way you're doing it.
I suggest you wipe down the existing finish vigorously with paint thiner, also known as mineral spirits, and rags, to get as much as the tacky stuff off. Then wait until it is hard to the touch (maybe a week), scuff sand it lightly, but completely, and apply several coats of poly, full strength, or much, much better, use shellac.
Rich
Watco is a mix of oil (linseed) and varnish, considerably thinned. Oil/varnish mixes shouldn't be allowed to dry on the surface. They are designed to be applied and then wiped thoroughly off. It is too soft to be left on the surface. When you added a different varnish (and a relatively soft drying one to boot)to the mix you didn't change it all that much it is still a oil/varnish mix and will still dry too soft to use as a film. If you use it at all it should also be applied and wiped off, and not be allowed to build a film. And this supposes there was no adverse chemistry in the combination--you may have had unforeseen clashes with driers or solvents. This is one reason why "magic formulas" end up being black magic too often.
Unfortunately, the mix you have won't provide a good base for another finish over it. It must be removed. By this time, it may be past just removing with mineral spirits, it likely requires a stripper.
Blackmagic aside, the problem might just be the normal oil seepage common to using any oil on red oak, esp. end grain. I'd just wipe down the tacky part with a rag dampened with paint thinner or turpentine. If that takes care of the tackiness then wait an hour or two and check for oil bleeding out of the end grain. It might take a couple of days with repeated wipings until you're done. I've never experimeted with home brew O&V mixtures but I do use my own oil recipe when I want to use oil to pop the figure and follow-up with a topcoat. I use a 1:1 mix of BLO and mineral spirits with a shot or 2 of Japan drier per pint of dilluted oil. It penetrates and wipes off well, and dries much more quickly so the baby sitting the bleed out stage goes by much more quickly. I have to disagree with those who say an oil finish can't be built up to provide durability. It may not form a true film but it can be durable. It just takes a lot of patience. I once read somewhere the regimen is to oil & wipe once and hour for a day, once a day for a week, once a week for a month, once a month for year and once a year forever. I think thats 46 "coats" in the first year. Have fun :)
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
thank you,it has now dried.....i just wasn't patient enough. was afraid of "goo". it seems that everyone has a very different idea of finishing. i contacted the gentleman who suggested the idea that i'm using.....he swears by it.in any case, thanks for the input. i'm learning lots.
Well merlvern, Then by all means, rely on the advice of the "gentleman" who "swears by it." Anybody who sears by something MUST know what he's doing. Right? Forget what you've read here. What the heck do we know? Oh, yeah, let us know when you've refinished the job with shellac or varnish, because it simply rubbed right down to bare wood after a week or so. Don't forget to sand the wood down to remove the dirt and skin oils. Rich
wow, your tone is not only un-called for, but offensive. read my post history, i try to do my best to accept that advice that is given. this particular advice, i got over in breaktime, and the "gentleman" has not only been kind but exceedingly helpful.i will, on my next project, not do what i did in this one, poly seemed to make sense for durability on a handrail, thus i chose it....only to realise i made a mistake.i have recieved over the years MUCH helpful advice and have utilized it and i think, been appropriately thankful. i can only conclude that you are an intemperate, unthinking, thoughtless person who sullies this fine forum.
merlvern, I was restraining the sarcasm. Sorry if you are so easily offended. Frankly your shocked and appalled act comes off a bit short. Obviously you have never had the opportunity to work in a production wood shop. Silly situations do not survive very long in such an environment. And if you do not quickly develop a thick skin, you can really get scorched. You ought to try hanging out in one. You might find it interesting and educating. Rich
Edited 2/15/2007 7:44 pm ET by Rich14
everybody else was helpful, and you pull the "you've never worked in a production shop" garbage. of course i've never been in a production shop.....would i be asking these questions had i experience? i think you've been in the production shop too long or......naw....that's just you're excuse for being a cranky twerp. ever hear the one about "keeping your mouth shut if you've got nothing good to say"?60+ ha? old enough to know better.bother someone else, i'm here to learn not to be condescended to.
>>Rich14: I was restraining the sarcasm. ... Obviously you have never had the opportunity to work in a production wood shop.>merlvern: everybody else was helpful, and you pull the "you've never worked in a production shop" garbage.Children! Children! Keep that up and you'll have to stay in during recess and sharpen chisels.
Not my chisels DickL...these guys are being to emotional to concentrate and do a good job right now. I suggest removing all the solid wood boards from the racks, dusting them off and re-stacking in order of species and size. JL
sorry,tough to look at a piece (i know it's just a handrail) that i carved myself and have to start the whole finishing process over....it seems so confusing, the 3 books on finishing i have not-withstanding.i'll settle down, i promise.
I wonder if some of the drying delay might've been because of the stain. You had mentioned that you stained it very dark.
I just stained a built-in desk top with minwax to match an antique desk that will be nearby. I was using Minwax and when the stain was freshly applied, the color was perfect, but when I wiped it off after letting it sit it was too light. So on the third coat I just let it sit and dry that way. The finish coat was Minwax wiping poly and it took a couple of days to dry hard enough to sand back and recoat. I was nervous about it at first and assumed that the extra build of stain inhibited the drying in some way.
Happy ending for us both!
David C.
yup, could have been the thing. in any case, i tried to "wet sand" and all the stain came away with the sand paper.....i guess my finish coat/s weren't thick enough. in hind sight, and with the advice of the folks here i stripped it and, i'm gonna go with varnish and start again. with all due respect, i was worried about the "plasticy" look of poly, so i was looking for some sort of hybrid that would give the oil "look" and a poly "toughness".live (weep), and learn i guess.thanks for the help.
with all due respect, i was worried about the "plasticy" look of poly, so i was looking for some sort of hybrid that would give the oil "look" and a poly "toughness".
Don't worry about offending me :-) I'm not in love with polyurinethane. But for an office desk top made out of Orange Box oak-veneered plywood it seemed perrrfect!
Best,
David C
John,Sooner or later in some thread about oil finishes someone will haul out the "ancient wisdom" about applying oil "every day for a week, every week for a month, evety month . . . yadda yadda."As though there is some validity to this nonsense. It does have a catchy sound to it, a kind of rhythm. But that's thee only thing compelling about it. It's just a fairy tale.Actually, your retelling is the first I have read about, "every hour for a day." Nice touch.The only thing this application schedule has to do with reality is that oil applications are fragile, and, at best, temporary, requiring frequent, um, freshening. Wetting wood with animal or vegetable products was the only thing ancient woodworkers had to add something to the surface appearance, absent access to or knowledge of shellac and all its advantages and later, development of modern varnish chemistry.Oil "seepage" from porous woods does not occur in the way the OP has described his problem. It "boils" out of the pores in little hard mounds, not tacky residue.Oil can eventually be made to form a barely protective "film" if forced to polymerize over a laborious series of hundreds of applications. But that film is only molecules thick, and nothing more than a curiosity.Oil, or even an oil/varnish mix is not the finish for any application where there will be physical abrasion. Despite your expectation, it can't be built up to the kind of physical barrier needed, with patience. Even with all the patience of a statue. Why try when there are so many acceptable alternatives that don't take "forever" to apply? And when one of them, shellac, is done in hours?Oil or oil/varnish is anything but durable. Put it on delicate knick-knacks that never get handled, and it may last for a while. But it is simply the wrong finish for a handrail, even if it were correctly formulated to polymerize, and not a black magic home brew.Rich
"Actually, your retelling is the first I have read about, "every hour for a day." Nice touch."
"Oil "seepage" from porous woods does not occur in the way the OP has described his problem. It "boils" out of the pores in little hard mounds, not tacky residue."
"And when one of them, shellac, is done in hours?"
"Oil or oil/varnish is anything but durable. Put it on delicate knick-knacks that never get handled"
I'm not saying oil is the only finish. In this application, a residential stairrail, that the look and feel of an O/V finish, especially with the patina developed over the years by exposure to the harsh "abrasiveness" of the human hand may just be what the guy who built it and lives with it had in mind.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Edited 2/16/2007 2:02 pm by Elcoholic
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