I am constructing a solid oak table for some customers of mine and I think that I need a little help with pricing it fairly. Here are some specs for this table.
Two pedestal table with a closed length of 8 ft and an opend length of about 13 feet, possible a third pedestal in the middle if the support is needed. It will be 4ft wide at the ends and when it is fully extended the middle will be 5ft wide. (The customer wants it to be wider in the middle like a conference table so that everyone can see everyone at the table, no matter where they sit). It will be made of entirley red oak. It will have a steel ball bearing slide.
I guess I am just looking to compare my price with that of some others that make custom work and would do a job like this.
Replies
$10,000-$20,000
J.P.
hey....
http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
get rid of that Trojan virus that tried to download from your website.
Gladly, tell me how.I've got a mac, what do I need to do?J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
YES JP I Virus tried to get on my PC too!!! I Really hope it is not intentional!
Rich
No not intentional, sxtill trying to figure out what I need to do to get rid of it short of having to remove and upload all of the files all over again.J.P.
I did not think so, sorry for the tone of my comment.
Rich
No offense taken. Just trying to get the problem taken care of. It seems as if the problem has been resolved. At least that is what the folks who host my site tell me. Just found out a few minutes ago that the affected code has been removed. So if you still have problems then you may want to check things at your end.J.P.
Don't see a lot of American Red Oak down this way (plenty of white though) so I don't know what the perception value is. I can certainly ask more for some more sort-after (but not necessarily dearer) species so I would be looking at $12 - 15,000 for the more common timbers with a clear finish on to $15,000 upwards for the 'exotic'. She's a biggun.
Don
Red Oak vs. White Oak.....red oak is more plentiful and "common" than white oak, in general, in the US. Don't know where the OP lives, nothing in his profile.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Like others..... in the high teens and beyond. Extra $ for the ugly fee if I have to work with red oak.
$20ish, at least.
You will rue the day you build something this large out of Red Oak. Don't do it.
I'm curious. Do you have a personal bias against red oak, as do I. Or is there some structural/practical reason to "rue" using it?
It moves too much.
Just a newbie, but somewhere I've read that red oak moves only half as much as white oak. Is that a fact?
Read back a few posts, Tinkerer. I state the shrinkage values in percentages.Lee
Read back......
Thanks, I finally did get to it. I have about as much to learn on how to use this forum as I do on woodworking.
Happy to help, Tinkerer, if you're not clear on what it means just let me know.Lee
Lee,
I don't always agree with you -- maybe only about 98% of the time.
Good posts. Stay on board.
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
I've been here all along, just not always inclined to babble.98%, huh? That seems high to me, I'll work on that, hah, hah, ha...Lee
Tinkerer, if you want to compare wood species, try The Shrikulator at Woodweb. For instance, I plugged in numbers for 10" wide board, relative humidity changing from 35% to 20%, and compared red oak to white oak.
The program will give you final dimensions, radial and tangential, and percentage change, for the same. It appears that while white oak moves a tad more in the radial dimension, it moves a tad less in the tangential plane. Play around with it, it's a handy tool.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Actually, forestgirl, just clicking on species will give you shrinkage. Some of the oaks listed are classed as white, others red. For instance, Bur oak is classed as white oak, pin oak is red.Be careful with the numbers you plug in. Wood does not start shrinking until free water is gone and that is right around 28% moisture content. As a result of this these calculators give inaccurate numbers when confronted with numbers above fiber saturation points. It's a common problem with these calculators, I reviewed an entirely different one for the magazine a while back that could not accurately deal with moisture contents above 30% and had the same issues.Lee
About 5 years ago a custom commercial walnut version of your table was quoted at about 25K. So it would seem that the 20ish preice suggested by many is right. Can you post an image here? Sounds like a lovely piece.
Red
$10 - $20,000??? No wonder furniture makers have a hard time getting started in this business! Charge something like that for a pedestal table and its going to be a long time before anyone else comes knocking on your door. I hate to be the pessimist here, but since your asking someone else to price your work, I am guessing you don't have much experience doing it yourself. If I'm wrong then I apologize. I am also going to further assume that based on the fact that you asked the question that there are also a couple of other things to take into consideration - experience? reputation?
If your going to be asking that much, you better have a lot of both! Id say that you may want to take a look at your investment in time, materials, construction technique (more machine work than handwork?), overhead, and desire to build a reputation upon which you can later depend upon to bring in $20,000 for a table.
Again, sorry to be the guy that mentions the reality check here, but I have a feeling your going to scare of your customer with a number that high.
I have been building for about three years and have put out lots of pieces. I simply have never built a piece this large. Your posting was not so much of a reality check though because if I were to charge in the teens of thousands for this table in this area there is no way that I would be building it. I will have invested about 1,200 dollars in the materials for the table. As far as how many hours it will take I am not sure, again, I haven't built something this large before. I am still establishing myself in the area as a builder but I have a good reputation with the people that I have built for up until now. I have made lots of pieces for these customers and they really like my work. I expect to make many more pieces for them and I don't want them to not come back to me because of this price. I was looking to charge more in the 3-6 thousand dollar range.
shopmate, a quick and dirty estimate method.
Take all your direct material costs and multiply by ten. Add delivery as a separate charge.
For example. Materials cost, £1,000. Charge to client, £10,000. Delivery is charged at costs for actual man hours, plus van hire cost (plus a mark up for profit) and a mileage charge of something like £0.40 a mile (in the UK.)
This simple multiplier is a blunt instrument for estimating high quality bespoke or custom furniture. However, over the thirty odd years I've been doing this type of work I've found direct materials costs times ten is generally quite good for getting you in the right sort of area for most genuinely high quality work.
If you think the figure you come up with using this method is a bit low or high you'll have to make a business judgement on adjusting it up or down. Certainly if there's 60, 70, or 100 hours work in this job you must think of what you need to charge per hour, day, or week to at least cover your overheads, pay yourself a wage and add a mark up for necessary profit.
Business needs profit like lungs need oxygen, and business needs cashflow like a body needs nourishment. Without nourishment and oxygen a body dies. Business doesn't care how you make money: it only cares that you do. You just have to find the right balance for your business in your area. Good luck. Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
"I was looking to charge more in the 3-6 thousand dollar range. "A few things come to mind:
You are giving them a gift.
You are doing a disservice to those makers who are trying to make a real living.
You are using this project pay for learning, thus you are willing to work long hours for not much $.
The price depends a lot on who is the designer. If they are providing plans, then you are labor only. If you are providing a unique design, that time is worth a grand alone. If you are ripping off another's design...... shame on you.
You have no confidence in your worth as a furniture maker.I have been guilty of all these things. No more. I finally decided that I'd rather sell shoes then undersell my hard work. Good luck.
As far as doing a disservice to those that are making a living building furniture, I have called lots of local cabinet shops and custom builders in my search for a cost estimate and they have all been under the cost of 3000. I just can't build it for less than that. There is an amish furniture store about an hour from here that sells a table that is slightly similar, only in length, and they sell theirs for 2300. I just don't know if there is a market for charging all that much. I stand to make about $20 an hour if I complete the project in 100 hours. I am doing the designing but I charge for that seperately. 20 an hour is what I am hopeful to make when I build. I am the only one that works in my shop.
At $20 per hour, by the time you take out FICA, state and local taxes, utilities, etc you are wokring for way less than minimum wage. If you can't make money at it why do it? Sometimes it is better to walk away from a job than to own it.
And to build it with red oak won't add to your reputation in the long run.
Jack
I don't understand why you guys are afraid of using red oak. If that's what the customer wants that's what they should have. There have been plenty of tables and cabinets much larger than this table successfully built from red oak. You guys are throwing numbers of twenty grand around without a decent description of the table other than general configuration and size. If the pedestals are simple I could knock this thing out for under ten grand easily laughing and skipping all the way to the bank. Depending on how simple possibly five grand. It's a few slabs of wood with two pedestals. If you guys would be working on this for more than two weeks, three weeks tops, you'd better check your skills..., and egos.Lee
I love it when my ego nets me 15K. Why let a perfectly good ego go to waste?
Tell you what, next time I get a call to bid on a 13' long table and the budget is 5K or less the commission is yours. My mamma taught me how to add. Hey, I'll even throw in the Red Oak. I've got a pile of it in the shed warping as we speak.
Good to 'see' you online. Hope all is well and that you've got juicy stuff in the order book.
Edited 6/3/2006 9:43 am ET by charlesstanford
I'm on hiatus. I just had major foot surgery and am out of the shop other that puttering on our own stuff. Once this foot is rehabed I go in for the other one. I blame the grey hair, it all started when my hair began changing color. It could be as long as a year before I'm able to really work again, hopefully sooner. Yup, send them my way, I'll tell them what they can get for five grand, ten grand and so on and see if they want it. I get quite a few commissions this way.Lee
A few things come to my mind - "You are giving them a gift"
And the next time they want something built, guess who there going to come to?"You are doing a disservice to those makers who are trying to make a real living"
Logic here? This sounds so crazy I dont even understand it...
"You are using this project pay for learning, thus you are willing to work long hours for not much $."
Good for him! (or her)
"If you are ripping off another's design...... shame on you. You have no confidence in your worth as a furniture maker."
Is this a general consensus about all reproduction furniture makers?
hdgis
In reply to your thoughts.........
"You are giving them a gift"And the next time they want something built, guess who there going to come to?
Don't bet on it, you'll probably be out of business.
"You are doing a disservice to those makers who are trying to make a real living"Logic here? This sounds so crazy I dont even understand it...
If he's happy with $20 an hour then fine but I can't run my shop on less than $50 so I charge $60 so if that sounds crazy go see what your mechanic charges to service your car, or even worse what a panel shop charges to straighten it.
"You are using this project pay for learning, thus you are willing to work long hours for not much $."Good for him! (or her)
No need not to charge a decent price for the regular shop time when you are doing the stuff you know- if something needs working out do it after dinner. I've been in this game for a long time now & still pick up a pencil during the ad breaks.
Don
I would not dream of giving even a ball park figure for that job unless I had access to facts such as design details, grade of red oak to be used, reputation of the maker, type of clientele to mention a few.
Mention has been made of Red Oak being unstable-this is true, comparatvely speaking, but it does not mean the man must avoid it's use for the project-it means he must ensure his construction method accommodates this relatively high movement factor.
How does a person with my background, having grown up in the lower part of Africa know this? I worked in a factory that imported prime red oak from America and turned it into quality furniture exported far and wide. That factory made LARGE dining tables, Tudor style , both rectangular and round in solid-no veneers. Movement problems were minimal, as the stuff was designed by gentlemen whio understood the nature of wood-especially red oak, the better grades of which are well respected and not made into fence posts etc , as in , er well I hesiatate to say where.Philip Marcou
White oak makes far better fence posts anyway,Lee
But they won't look as good in white Oak, which has no medullary rays to delight the eye,as in red Oak.(;)
I'm still wandering why the original question has not been answered by an Accountant-perhaps it is realised that this would not be nearly as entertaining as the majority of these posts have been.Philip Marcou
The original question can have no single answer. There are many reasons for this, but chief amoung them is there were not enough parameters stated.Typically, the entire thread has taken a few crazy turns. It's been great. Rock on!
Actually I think there is one answer to the question and that is "MONEY".
Especially since the table is roughly the size and shape of an aircraft carrier deck: the cost of materials alone will be no joke , so one would hope that this is up to date, and that he is able to estimate reasonably accurately the number of man hours required and their realistic value. And having discussed any budgetary constraints.....ah foooey who wants to wear an accountants cap?Philip Marcou
Philip, ole boy, you're exactly 180 degrees off on your colors. White oak has more of the medullary flecks in the quarter sawn faces than red oak. They do occur in red oak but not with the frequency as in white oak. Those flecks are the hallmark of the Mission style which was part of the Arts and Crafts style which evloved into the bungalow style and Early Middle Income Surburban Furniture Style of the 50s and early 60s.Used extensively still white oak is the lumber sought out for the flecks. If I'm remembering my wood science correctly, (May Jon Arno haunt me tonight in my dreams if I'm wrong) the tyloses (openings you see in end grain) are much smaller so white oak absorbs far less water than most red oaks, this is what makes white oak a good exterior wood. However, since there are in the neighborhood of 45 different species that are called red oak, and 30-some that make up white oak there are woods that cross these lines.Lee
You are quite correct- I "mis-remembered it" and don't even need to look it up for confirmation.
If I remember correctly White Oak is good for barrels too-unlike red oak.Philip Marcou
On the back cover of the new Woodwork mag is a picture of a red oak cabinet that Hank Gilpin built for the MFA in Boston. If anybody still thinks that the material is crude after seeing that -I'd really have to wonder about you........
To the original poster, build the table for what YOU think is appropriate. Cash the check. Learn whatever lessons you can from the experience, repeat.
-Paul
Well Said
Yup, it's used for barrels a lot, whiskey and wine and beer.Lee
I'm not ready to agree with a $15k - $20k price, but $3k - $6k sounds pretty low to me.
Here's where you need to do some serious pencil work and estimate your total cost for materials and your total estimated time for each step in the project beginning with getting the materials to your shop and progressing thru the cutting, milling, assembly, sanding, finishing, delivery, and installation. Both estimates need to include cushions for mistakes and reworks. The size of the cushions will depend on your confidence level.
When you have a handle on the time estimate, you need to decide on a shop rate that you can live with. If this is a part time thing for you, $20 - $25 per hour may be ok. I can't work for those wages, but maybe you can - lol.
Finally, when you feel pretty comfortable with your estimate, you need to have a serious talk with your customer and give them the news. If they go for it, get a decent deposit and set a delivery date. If they go into shock, you're only out for the time it took you to develop your estimate - and you can call that tuition.
I've found that very few people really understand why custom work costs much more than "production" pieces, and I almost always have to explain the concept of economy of scale (i.e. the factories are making dozens or hundreds of the same pieces and I'm only making one. Some people are willing to pay for a unique piece and most of the others seem to appreciate my honesty when I tell them they should only come to me if they truely can't find what they want somewhere else.
However it comes out for you, I wish you well.
I can tell you that it will take you every bit of 8 weeks if you work alone. Can you make a living on $1,000.00 to $4,000.00 for 8weeks work? I made a trestle table smaller than what you are working on (though extremely fine) and was hounded for years by people who wanted one like it... they didn't like the $10,000.00 price tag though. Finally some friends got a local guy who was very experienced to do a similar one for $8,000.00 It wasn't quite as nice but must have been a bit more work than he expected because he said that he'd "NEVER do another one". If you charge less than $12,000 you will surely wish that you'd just said NO!!! Unless you live in a third world country where you can work for a few dollars a day and feel well off. I have seen even bigger ones done for little more than that but... I would have thrown them into a dumpster... the workmanship was unimaginably bad... high school shop students would have put it to utter shame.
I can tell you that it will take you every bit of 8 weeks if you work alone. Can you make a living on $1,000.00 to $4,000.00 for 8weeks work? I made a trestle table smaller than what you are working on (though extremely fine) and was hounded for years by people who wanted one like it... they didn't like the $10,000.00 price tag though. Finally some friends got a local guy who was very experienced to do a similar one for $8,000.00 It wasn't quite as nice but must have been a bit more work than he expected because he said that he'd "NEVER do another one". If you charge less than $12,000 you will surely wish that you'd just said NO!!! Unless you live in a third world country where you can work for a few dollars a day and feel well off. I have seen even bigger ones done for little more than that but... I would have thrown them into a dumpster... the workmanship was unimaginably bad... high school shop students would have put it to utter shame.
Now THIS is the most likely scenario. Good post.
I could not agree more, that the figures quoted here are outrageous. I just finished a inlaid mahogany dining table, that with leaves measured 114" x 42. I charged $5800.00. Would I have liked to get more, sure, but it is unrealistic to expect the average woodworker to make the kind of money being suggested here.
A balance has to be struck, between not charging enough, and thereby implying poor quality, and charging so much that no one will consider your bid.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
You have been inexplicably underpricing your fine work for some time.
If you're making money, then the speed at which you are able to work is nothing short of miraculous.
Meant only as a compliment....
Your customers are lucky people. I hope at least they give you their appreciation since they clearly aren't parting with much money.
Well, I can tell you that if you intend to sell pieces like this in the four figure range, instead of the high teens low twenties range, at least, then you might as well jot down the name of a bankruptcy attorney in your Rolodex.
You'll need one.
This thing sounds like a train wreck. A huge table on an absurd budget out of one of the worst woods I can think of for such a piece.
Consider yourself forewarned.
Edited 6/2/2006 1:17 pm ET by BossCrunk
Is the red oak their suggestion or yours? Sounds like a really nice table, but being built out of a Cabinet grade wood. If it had to be oak, I would use white oak.
As for pricing, that's a tough one. Lots of variables, the client(will they pay $10-$20,000 for that table), your area, Is anything available that they can purchase that's manufactured? Also your experience and reputation comes into play. And the clincher, which would you rather do-build it for $3-$6,000 and make a little money or price it at $10-$20,000 and possibly not get the job?
I've had customers balk at $2500 for a dining table and yet I built a ckt. table for one client that was $4500 and she was very happy. Sometimes it seems like there's no simple way to price your work, but, I can tell you this. It get's cheaper, when the bill's come due.
The red oak is at their request. I suggested white if they wanted it from oak but they really wanted red. Said that they reall like the color and that it matches some other pieces that they currently have in their home. It also matches all of their interior trim. I have built several other pieces for them and they have requested red for everything.
shopmate,
Go with your instincts and what you think the customer is willing to pay. My uncle has a Red Oak pedestal table that he bought from the "Amish" furniture shop. It is an extension table that goes to 60 feet long...sixty...that's right, SIXTY. I think he paid something under 8K for it. Solid red oak, 1" thick finished leaves, and something like 7 pedestals in the middle. We've had many, many family gatherings at that table, including our baby shower and the thing is solid as a rock. He even bought another piece to store the leaves!!
My point is, don't get too outlandish on the pricing for your first sale. Figure your materials and labor, and start to get some business. Save the big dollar prices for the really unique and intricate pieces.
Hi shopmate ,
I would want more details , such as are there carved ball and claw feet on the pedestals ? or what type of edge details will the tabletop have , what thickness will the top be ?
The first concern that came to my mind was how will you surface the table halves ? They may be too wide to fit thru a wide belt sander , will you make them in sections and have them surfaced then glue them together ?
As far as the Red Oak said to be a poor choice from some of the posters , imo they are over playing that aspect . But just to be safe a suggestion would be to use either Rift Sawn or Quarter Sawn Red Oak even the nay sayers should agree that this would be a more stable material to use .
If the table is simple and the pedestals have little or no exotic details and the entire job has nothing trick or time consuming then the price could be lower as opposed to a highly ornate and detailed piece .
You have to price work for your area not just what some gallery will charge in some area not associated with your locale . It sounds like you have done a market check on what is sold as similar in your area . However the piece your client has requested is not readily available and has to be custom made .
The 100 hours may or may not be an accurate time allotment , it depends on your ability and set up . Lets say it will take you about 2 full weeks to complete with a cost factor of about $1200 how much is your time worth ?
In my area that table would most likely sell for $ 4 - 6 thousand dollars with the materials mentioned .
I personally would not be real excited about taking on that monster though. That's a huge table as you know .
best of luck to you dusty
Shopmate- You say, if you don't build it for $3k, then they won't have it built. When did it become your job to give them what they want? Emphasis on give.
Does Ferrari mark down their cars 70% when someone in your area requests pricing? If they don't, they may not sell even one car in your area!
Don't be suckered by alleged Amish "furniture." The marketing ploy is to cash in on "odd religious group as skilled craftsmen" and confuse the easily confused American consumer's image of Shakers with the Amish. Amish does not imply skill or craft, though perhaps the opposite is true. To continue the auto analogy, The Amish make Yugos in a dim factory, and you make Ferraris to order. Big difference.
Red Oak was considered firewood until the post WW2 housing boom, when it was allowed as hardwood strip flooring. It is, at best, a utilitarian wood that finds its way into novelty furniture, to be sold by retired carpenters at street fairs. Potato bins are real popular around here.
You have let the customers determine the path this will take. The better (and successful) makers will all have style and a pre-determined path - or look or method of work - that will determine how a given project will look. Despite the myth, the customer is not always right.
You will do a disservice to all those making a serious living working wood if you proceed. Besides equating your work to that of the Chinese/Amish, you will damage the reputation of many if this table fails in any way. A 13' table is a whole bigger than just 13 feet. Add the extensions (with curves?!?), and you are out past the edge.
As one guy said, train wreck. Respect yourself and the craft, you are not doing anyone any favors here.
Dave S
Here are some shrinkage values for you guys, from green to 6%Radial; Northern Red Oak- 3.2% White Oak- 4.5%Tangential; Northern red Oak- 6.9% White Oak- 8.4%Red oak has less movement than white oak. Surprised?AcornW; Red oak was used extensively for Gothic, Medieval, William and Mary as well as Colonial furniture. As a professional furniture maker I take no offense whatsoever to this guy working cheap to get experience and a portfolio. I think it's great that he has the humility to work cheap for these things, two things absolutely necessary to become a furniture maker of note. I don't consider this a disservice at all, in fact I find it encouraging that people of this sort will build a piece for the love of the work, these are the people that put their own education and development first. Developing skills very often does not result in income and this is not unique to furniture makers. Consider the cost of college for doctors, lawyers and other vocations. Consider the cost of College of the Redwoods. I can't tell you the number of cabinet makers who say "I'd do that if someone would pay me" when viewing my work. I laugh because there is only one reason I do get paid to do it and that reason is because I developed the skills and knowledge without viewing income as the motivating factor and if these clowns think they can just pick up a set of carving tools and hack out a decent piece of furniture they are nuts. If you view this guy as competition you need to look at your own status because it sounds like you're still struggling and dealing with an uneducated clientèle. Leehttp://www.furniturecarver.com
Lee-
Thank you for stating that in a way that I couldnt. This whole disservice thing is ridiculous. If something goes wrong with this table, either as a result of the material or workmanship, then the only disservice being done is to the maker. To the original poster -
As for the price, charge whatever the hell you want. To add one more side to the 'auto' analogy, people dont stop paying $1000,000 dollars for cars just because someone is selling another car for $10,000. To continue the auto analogy, lets look at the success of Saturn. Or Hyndai. Or Kia. Start low and as your buyer list increases, raise the price.
Well, I expect a long line of people wanting to crawl down my throat. Besides, if woodworkers made a lot of money everyone would do it.Lee
Hey Lee,Since you and I seem to agree on the price thing (in principal), why dont you hire me Ill come and make beautiful furniture with the stuff you carve. Not related question, but Im abou tto tackle some flame finials and a rather large rosette. You got any tips or suggestions for me.ChrisOh yeah - checked out your profile - walks on the beach huh? In momtana! :) Spent 8 months in Missoula and dont think I even saw a pic of a beach.
Heh, heh, he..., my days of babysitting employees is long over. I either get paid to mentor or I give it away. I like sweeping my own floors.Here's a link to a how-to on flame finials by William Duffield, http://woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=handtools&file=articles_641.shtmlThe attachments are another version. This was a piece I did for the American Museum of Radio and Electricity. I like to do them on the lathe, the indexing makes getting the twist right easy and a lathe makes a fine hold down for the carving. Lee
Edited 6/3/2006 6:16 pm ET by LeeGrindinger
I guess I should include the finished piece, it's a reproduction of a spark machine from the Ben Franklin era. I made the stand, one of the curators took care of the rest.Lee
Your carvings are some of the most beautiful I think I have ever seen. Looking at your furniture makes me want to carve, but I know better.
Wow, thanks. Rest assured though that there are carvers out there that truly humble me.Don't view it as unattainable. Think in terms of just starting. I wrote an article just for people like you that appeared in FWW a few years ago. Here's an excerpt, http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00032.asp and the entire article is available through subscription, here's the teaser, http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2655The whole premise was to get people into carving with minimal investment, all three of the mouldings can be done with three gouges. You're young, leave it open for the future.Lee
Thanks I took a look at your articles.... I may give it a shot someday.
Gothic and Medieval Red Oak was riven and only the well-behaved straight grain stuff was kept. It was also from huge trees that grew very slowly in virgin forests. You know all this. This is like equating old growth pine to the crap at Home Depot. Same species, technically, but in practice two completely different animals.
Sorry to hear about your foot.
True, true, but since we clear cut virtually all of our oaks not long ago wouldn't white oak and red oak be on the same footing today?Yeah, the foot deal is a drag but at least I have renewed hopes for pairs figure skating in the next Olympics.Lee
True, true, but since we clear cut virtually all of our oaks not long ago wouldn't white oak and red oak be on the same footing today?
Nope. Not based on my experience.
I vote you in charge of the rewrite of "Dry Kiln Operator's Manual". Lee
I vote you in charge of the rewrite of "Dry Kiln Operator's Manual".
Well Lee, I'm a furnituremaker and not a kiln operator. The $hit moves. Period.
I can sit there with the Dry Kiln Operators Manual in my hand whilst looking at the pretzel on my workbench,,,, and the book is supposed to do what for me?
Edited 6/3/2006 6:46 pm ET by charlesstanford
It's a Zen thing, understanding the whys and the whats.Ohmmmmm,Lee
Lee ,
So many beautiful things have been made of Red Oak especially the Rift Sawn and Quarter Sawn . Some of us know how stable this wood is . As craftsman we should certainly guide our clients into success while being able to adapt and work many woods .
I would never compromise the structural integrity of a piece , but hey , if asked for pallet wood to be used that would be more like the picture drawn by an earlier post , if they want Red Oak, so be it . As long as you get your price you can't go far wrong .
in the last 25 or 30 years I have been in a continuing state of education , the cost has been huge , the payoffs smaller , mostly blood , sweat and tears .
" A graduate of the North West School of Hard Knocks "
Take care and I wish you a good recovery .
dusty
Them's that ain't learnin' is dyin'.Good for you,Lee
Yes, straight grain cuts of Red Oak are available but he'll really lose money if he upgrades... assuming he can find it in his area and doesn't have to have it trucked in.
You can't go to Home Depot and spec riftsawn Red Oak in the rough and in the thickness(es) he will need to build a table.
Time for a reality check, folks.
Hi Charles ,
What is curious about your reply is your statement about not being able to go down to Home Depot to spec Riftsawn Oak . If we are talking about a professional Furniture / Cabinetmaker , then why in the world would they purchase materials from a big box store , for # 1 .
# 2 , You said , " he'll really lose money if he up grades " from the straight grain cuts of Oak . You say you are a Furniture Maker , do you make your living and support your family from the work you produce with your 2 hands ? I would be surprised if you do . The difference to up grade to say Riftsawn in Oak is usually about $1 per bf . Q Sawn is a bit more . Even if the up grade added a couple of hundred dollars to his cost , it certainly would not tip the profit scale out of reality as you said .
What types of materials do you use ?
If you can make and charge $ 15,000 or more for this scale of project then more power to you Brother . We were not told how thick or what type of grain or details will be used on this job so it is hard to second guess any swings in material costs , heck maybe the top is 8/4 who knows .
In your opinion why would buying material in the rough be advantageous ?
regards dusty
What is curious about your reply is your statement about not being able to go down to Home Depot to spec Riftsawn Oak . If we are talking about a professional Furniture / Cabinetmaker , then why in the world would they purchase materials from a big box store , for # 1 .
It was a joke in an attempt to illustrate a point.
# 2 , You said , " he'll really lose money if he up grades " from the straight grain cuts of Oak . You say you are a Furniture Maker , do you make your living and support your family from the work you produce with your 2 hands ? I would be surprised if you do . The difference to up grade to say Riftsawn in Oak is usually about $1 per bf . Q Sawn is a bit more . Even if the up grade added a couple of hundred dollars to his cost , it certainly would not tip the profit scale out of reality as you said .
Lumber Logs, LLC St. Louis, Missouri:
FAS Plain Sawn Red Oak $1.95/bd. ft. ,,,,, FAS QSawn Red Oak $3.15/bd. ft. -- this is about a 62% increase in raw materials cost on a total bid that *apparently* will be under $5,000 to the customer (a 13 foot long table).
Like I said, I can add and it's a necessary skill in order to support myself and my family which I most certainly do. The vast majority of my commission these days are for sets of chairs.
What types of materials do you use ?
These days, a lot of Mahogany but I've worked with all the major furniture woods as I would suspect most on this board have as well.
If you can make and charge $ 15,000 or more for this scale of project then more power to you Brother . We were not told how thick or what type of grain or details will be used on this job so it is hard to second guess any swings in material costs , heck maybe the top is 8/4 who knows .
In your opinion why would buying material in the rough be advantageous ?
Of course I can make that much on the project. Why? Because I wouldn't do it for anything less. I would not insult my wife and my family by attempting to earn 20 bucks an hour day and and day out. There are other things I can do if it got that bad. And it hasn't. We've all had a job or two go into the ditch and didn't end up making much of anything but I don't go into a new project literally *planning* on making what an entry level nail banger can earn. If you're just starting out, and have some financial liquidity, making a few pieces at a discount for bona fide referal sources it a reasonable strategy. I don't think that's what's going on here.
Do you ever turn down a job? I do. All the time. The best thing I ever did for myself and my wallet was develop a reputation for being expensive. But you can't be arbitrarily expensive. I suppose over the long-haul my work has fetched what it has fetched. If you build junk you can't charge much for it.
I assume you must be joking about buying in the rough. If you can by S4S lumber (whatever the thickness and grade) and have it stay stable in your shop until time to be put into a project then please tell me where you're buying this magic lumber. I want some of it. I four-square rough lumber as needed for a project. How do you do it?
From the American Hardwood Export Council:
Working propertiesRed oak machines well, nailing and screwing is good although pre-boring is recommended, and it can be stained and polished to a good finish. It dries slowly with a tendency to split and warp. It has a high shrinkage and can be susceptible to movement in performance.
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Machining
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Nailing
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Screwing
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Gluing
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Finishing
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Wow! This is like a court room drama. We got experts all from the same field saying different things! I love it! Whos right? whos wrong? Oh yeah, I checked the shrinkulator and it seems that shrinkage both R and T is greater for white oak. Very Interesting.
Hmm, you must be watching Fox News...,The American Hardwood Export Council gives no values for movement, just a genralized statement. Google them up and see what they say about white oak.Let's not let facts cloud our judgment here, Lee
Lee,Just so we dont confuse anyone who just picks up this thread, Im not the one who quoted the Hardwood council. I do in fact find it funny that so many experts in the field make so many different claims about wood movement values. I find it especially troubling that a corp(?) as large as the American Hardwood Export Council would make a pretty vaque statement like that without any data to back it up. Im on your side man!Chris
Edited 6/4/2006 1:47 pm ET by hdgis1
Yeah, well, actually I didn't intend that "facts" comment for you, sorry about that.I think a lot of people in this trade are just plain sick of red oak since it was stuffed into nearly every kitchen for a few decades. This weariness has translated itself into erroneous conclusions about red oak. It's one thing to say "I hate it", an entirely different one to say it's not a good furniture wood with great purpose.There are no real discrepancies in the science, they all agree that red oak moves less than white oak and in cabinetmaker terminology this means that red oak is more stable.Having said that I'll add that we all do better work when we like the material we're working with. Now, I need to figure out how to get fifteen grand for a 5 to 7 thousand dollar table...Lee
Edited 6/4/2006 2:03 pm ET by LeeGrindinger
This table design, as stated in the original post has a design problem, irregardless of the wood used. To get the size and shape the customer wants the table would need 3 20" leaves. Anything larger, like 2 30" leaves would be a handling and storage problem. To get from 4'on the ends to 5' in the middle with leaves you would need a gradual curve from end to end. If the ends of the leaves are curved and not parallel, any movement in the wood will show up in the end joints not matching up. This could be very slight and almost unnoticable or very drastic. Considering the leaves would more than likely be stored in a seperate part of the house or closet. I would lean towards the drastic.Another issue to deal with is shop size. To get a smooth shape and transition with the leaves, and without, you need the space to stretch out a 13' table with room to work around it. This something I would take into consideration, when pricing and discuss with the client. Furniture...the Art of a FurnitureMaker
Kewl thread
Thanx to all for the good read.
One of things I b!tch about the loudest is hit or miss planing. Here in Montana I have found one dealer that buys and dries his own lumber from the Midwest and East. From him I can get rough but he doesn't always have what I need. Then it's shipping and buying sight unseen if it's important to have the extra thickness, sometimes it's cheaper to just buy the next thickness up. I do miss being back East for the lumber options, backwaters come at a price. Most dealers and cabinet shops these days prefer skip planed, it's cheaper to ship and store and untrained eyes can get better grain selection.I was wondering about the original poster's numbers, in my mind it's a 200 bf job assuming a 4/4 top, add mechanical slides, finish and misc and I see less than a grand. Maybe it's big box wood. Lee
I plan to make a 4/4 top and I bought about 200 bf of lumber split between 4/4 for the top and 8/4 for the base pedestals.
Lee
I've been watching this thread with comical interest, and am glad to see somebody interject some sanity in it, as you have with your posts.
I've made about 20 tables in the range of this size project, and I don't think any of them took me longer than 2 weeks to 18 days to complete. Unless your making the glue by chasing the horse down on foot (jest), ..............I mean, give me a break.
If all the geniuses were getting $20K for these small commissions, they'd all be driving the Ferrari's that they are yacking about!
Your advise to the poster to just build it as a portfolio increaser was excellent. Let's see.........sit in the shop with nothing to build and 100 bids out for $20K apiece, none hired...........or actually make something, and increase the client list. It's a no brainer.
Let's take the 200bf and kick it up a bit for inexperienced waste, say 25%, to 250 bf. Gee, that's a whole FIVE HUNDRED REAL DOLLARS in material. So, costs are under a grand for material, finish, aspirin, etc.....
In my opinion, it's better to build than not to build, when you're just starting a business. He'll learn down the road with experience and a growing clientele list to charge closer to market value, and he'll also EARN the right to charge more by expressing his craftsmanship in a portfolio.
He can't do that by working for mom...............
BTW, good to hear your foot is a wee bit better.
Jeff
Thanks Jeff, perhaps I've just never been in the position to charge that kind of money for my work. It's value priced and I have no complaints about either my income or our lifestyle, actually Ruthie and I consider ourselves quite fortunate.It's a long row to hoe to get the skill set needed to build nice furniture and if you can get paid to do it, great. Many of us have had to get the experience any way we could, even, *gasp* doing work we didn't get paid to do.Hey, I hope your contractor woes are over,Lee
Lee
I think that for the first 3 years of working wood as a business, I made enough to break even with all expenses, and invest in a new tool or two for the shop. As I know you know, I had my other business to feed the family with. My recommendation to those that I know in the woodworking business is to "not quit your day job" until you've built up a client list. That always takes a few years, minimum.
Yeah, all is cool with the house. I fired that no good rotten sob just in the knick of time, as I found almost all of his 'shortcuts', and have been fixing them for the last 2 weeks. It was the first time I'd ever hired somebody to do my job, and I'll never do it again. I had to rip out $1200 worth of stone tile from the shower, as the idiot didn't put the rubber membrane in correctly, and then screwed through it. MORON!! I could rant for hours about this guy, but that'd be better over a few slayers. Hope to see you soon.
Jeff
Chas ,
O.K. , the facts you provided essentially backed up my statement that Riftsawn is usually about one dollar a bF more than flatsawn Oak , you actually came up with $1.20 a foot up charge from flat to Q sawn which costs more than Rift Sawn.
I do turn down many more jobs then I accept , I enjoy being able to pick and choose my jobs . The nature of the job as well as who wants it plays big on my taking the job or not .
Personally I don't have a reputation for having a huge capacity and being able to bang out a high volume in a short time , rather they know I am dedicated to detail and work to the best of my ability . There are many much larger and busier production shops in my area then myself , I'm only a one person custom production shop with a limited capacity . In the last 25 years or so many shops have come and most have gone as fast as they appear .
As we know being a decent craftsmen is only part of the skills needed to stay alive in this business .I love it when I am the high bidder and get the job , the other fellows just sort of wonder what happened . Quality speaks for it self and lasts a lifetime .Our reputation and personal integrity are paramount imo .
As I stated I have a small capacity and typically purchase materials in smaller quantities of 100 - 600 bf at a time depending on the job . I have been using the same supplier for most of the last 25 years and can rely on consistent moisture content and grade quality .
I usually buy the very best grade available per species , often in s3s at 13/16" . sometimes H&M in 5/4 depending on the application . The stock is mostly 6-9% moisture content and my shop is heated with electric heat and stays dry and constant and is only about 1400 sf in size . I can honestly say that movement and warping is not a common factor for me . I am located in So. Oregon in the Rogue Valley and it is a mild climate in comparison to some .
Out West here it is difficult to find graded hardwood in the rough , not sure why ?
regards dusty
Radial; Northern Red Oak- 3.2% White Oak- 4.5%
Tangential; Northern red Oak- 6.9% White Oak- 8.4%But the ratio of radial to tangential tells you something about how much a wood will twist: the closer to 1, the better.Radial / Tangential: Northern Red Oak- 0.46 White Oak- 0.54“Expectation strolls through the spacious fields of Time towards Opportunity.”
Umberto Eco, The Island of the Day Before
"But the ratio of radial to tangential tells you something about how much a wood will twist: the closer to 1, the better."I'm going to assume you mean "cup". You'll have to explain this to me, I don't see how radial movement, or lack there of, will prevent tangential movement or visa versa.Lee
Cup or twist: general shape shifting behaviour. It will depend on grain orientation (and changes thereto) in a particular board. With anisotropic shinkage (differing depending on direction), stresses build up in the board, and things start to move. This is all covered in the holy book, Hoadley's Understanding Wood.“Expectation strolls through the spacious fields of Time towards Opportunity.”
Umberto Eco, The Island of the Day Before
Edited 6/5/2006 5:03 pm ET by Frozen
From your post, "But the ratio of radial to tangential tells you something about how much a wood will twist: the closer to 1, the better."This is not a comment on stability or amount of movement. What I suspect Hoadley is talking about is degrade and direction of movement during drying and this is not a reflection on overall stability. Baring growth and drying stresses as well as restraint and conditioning during drying a board that would tend to twist would do so regardless of the ratio you're talking about, it's a function of grain direction and not the ratio of shrinkage between radial and tangential values. The numbers (percentages of shrinkage) are the numbers that describe stability and lower numbers are better regardless of ratio unless you're simply talking about degrade. This degrade is easily dealt with through restraint and conditioning during drying. Some boards will always go south but it's not because of the shrinkage ratios.True mahogany, Swietenia macrophylla, is the gold standard for stable furniture woods not because of it's ratio but because both numbers are low.Lee
Edited 6/6/2006 9:16 am ET by LeeGrindinger
Drying is just the extreme case for wood movement. Seasonal changes in humidity produce the same stresses, with movement proportional to the change in moisture. If a wood changes little with moisture change, then that is good. As the amount of movement with moisture change increases, then the effect of differential radial and tangential changes increases. In a glueup with boards with varying grain orientations, boards respond to moisture change by changing shape (typically by cupping, as you say). When constrained by an adjacent board that has a different grain orientation, stresses are put on the joint. Riven boards won't have this problem. A glued-up panel can work itself apart, given enough of a difference in board properties, enough seasonal range in moisture content, and enough cycles. “Expectation strolls through the spacious fields of Time towards Opportunity.”
Umberto Eco, The Island of the Day Before
Well, thank you to all for the valuable, or not so valuable, imput for this forum. It is clear to see that we all value our work differently. Being that woodworking is not my primary source of income, although I do rely on it to pay some of the bills, I guess that I am happy to give someone a good deal and still develop my skills. I have taken all of this into account and discussed the price with my customer and all things considered have come up with a fair price. It is within my original range and I am happy with our figure, as are they. Ultimately I think that is what matters. I am happy to build the piece for them and I am sure that they will be returning to me in the future. I don't feel as though I am being slighted and I don't feel that I am taking business or undercutting anyone else in the area. I know because I called around and did my homework. I am still planning on building the table top from a combination of a few flatsawn boards and mostly riftsawn pieces in order to give the illusion of several single wide boards instead of lots of pieces glued together. Thanks again. Matt
I am still planning on building the table top from a combination of a few flatsawn boards and mostly riftsawn pieces in order to give the illusion of several single wide boards instead of lots of pieces glued together.
Mmmmhhhmmmm.....
I think your bid range is perfect.
For a transaction to be good requires that it be a win win deal for both parties. It sounds like that is the case here and I congratulate you. Many times coming up with a fair price is as hard as building the piece. Be leery of the people who charge what they think the customer can afford. They would be the first to scream bloody murder if the surgeon charged more for their apendectomy because they drove up in a nice car. Profit is not a dirty word,gouging is.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Edited 6/6/2006 4:56 pm by dgreen
What you're describing is called price discrimination. You see it everywhere, from medicine (brand name vs. generic) to food (Coke versus grocery stores' house brands) to cars (Dodge versus Plymouth, often same chassis, slightly different trim, very different price) to electronics (cheap models of MP3 players often have the same guts as the expensive ones, with a feature or two disabled to suck out the most dollars from all parts of the spectrum). If you can stamp out a widget for $1, but some folks will pay $10 for 'em and some will pay $50, your fiduciary responsibilities to your stockholders may well make you legally responsible to find a way to get the most money you can.
The flip side of charging an affluent person more is the luxury of being able to cut a less affluent customer a little slack. From the butcher who gives scraps to a neighborhood kid for his dog that might sell as stew meat to another customer, to the kid who mows the old neighbor lady's yard for a buck because she's a neighbor but charges me $12 because it's fair, charging what the market will bear has a long and glorious history.
At least we're not like the financial industry, reversing the means test and charging the least affluent wage earners the highest interest rates -- some credit cards go as high as 24.99%. But of course, that's only for people with bad credit, dire needs, and no alternatives.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Usury and bad character have long and glorious histories too, just because 50 billion flies eat dog sh** does'nt mean it's the thing to do. I take it you would'nt mind paying twice as much for gas at the station compared to the guy next to you who owns a less prestigious car. A fair price is fair to buyer and seller.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
I don't complain when I pay for cheese at the store, and some other person gets it free from the state. I pay more for a LN and don't begrudge the person who decides they can take a good shaving with their fettled Stanley. I don't complain because an unfortunate person gets food stamps while I pay full price at the grocery store. I don't complain because I paid full price for my jigsaw, but another person was smart enough to find discounts and coupons and save $40.
Sometimes price discrimination works out to gouging, sometimes it's fair.
Generally I'm not too worried when the more affluent pay more. I don't like it when the poor get the shaft, though.
Ever have to pay for a medical procedure in cash? You pay the full billing rate. For example, I work for a major corporation in my day job. Time and again I've seen my insurance company billed big bucks for something, and the insurance company tells me the bill is paid in full. Funny thing, they didn't pay the amount billed, but a smaller "usual and customary" fee -- and I didn't have to pay the difference. This is just what the provider has to do in order to be on the list of preferred providers. So some poor schmuck with no insurance ends up paying the full $1000 (maybe with his 25% credit card), but they gladly accept less than $400 from my insurance company.
We figure out how to solve that, and then maybe I'll have some outrage to spare on behalf of the Mercedes driver who gladly pays $6000 for a custom-made dining room table. Particularly if the person making the table is still trying to pay off an appendectomy he had to charge to a credit card, or figure out how to get kids through college. ;-)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I don't complain when I pay for cheese at the store, and some other person gets it free from the state.
This is not price discrimination this is forced asset distibution.
I pay more for a LN and don't begrudge the person who decides they can take a good shaving with their fettled Stanley.
Talking about apples and oranges here. Two different products.
I don't complain because I paid full price for my jigsaw, but another person was smart enough to find discounts and coupons and save $40.
He invested time and trouble for his $40. You were not charged extra for your lack of similar investment.
Generally I'm not too worried when the more affluent pay more. I don't like it when the poor get the shaft, though.
To hell with being fair, I don't care if he did work 20hours a day and the guy with less money collects welfare. Screw the rich guy! Do I have the gist of your philosophy here?
Ever have to pay for a medical procedure in cash? You pay the full billing rate. For example, I work for a major corporation in my day job. Time and again I've seen my insurance company billed big bucks for something, and the insurance company tells me the bill is paid in full. Funny thing, they didn't pay the amount billed, but a smaller "usual and customary" fee -- and I didn't have to pay the difference. This is just what the provider has to do in order to be on the list of preferred providers. So some poor schmuck with no insurance ends up paying the full $1000 (maybe with his 25% credit card), but they gladly accept less than $400 from my insurance company.
We figure out how to solve that, and then maybe I'll have some outrage to spare on behalf of the Mercedes driver who gladly pays $6000 for a custom-made dining room table. Particularly if the person making the table is still trying to pay off an appendectomy he had to charge to a credit card, or figure out how to get kids through college.
Since everybody does it and I am unable or unwilling to change it I'll just keep on being morally bankrupt. That about size it up?
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
I think we're on the wrong foot here. I don't think everyone needs to price the way I described, or even that I'd do it all the time.
When I was in a band, we booked a lot of gigs for what we thought the venue could afford... including playing some rest homes for free. I've written dozens of magazine articles; PC Magazine paid me around $4,000 per article, but I wrote elsewhere cheaper, and worked free for still others. When I was a teenager I really did mow the next door lady's lawn for $1, but charged others $5 to $10. I'm simply saying sometimes it makes sense to price according to the market, sometimes it's fair to do so, and I think you're wrong if you think that makes me dishonest.
You come across as a principled person, and I'm sure that your customers find you both honest and consistent.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Mr. or Ms. Green's naaivete is his or her most endearing quality.
Someone must have seen your limo drop you off at school and charged you college rates for a pre-school education. Granted naivete is a complicated word of a whole seven letters but one would think that even you could figure out that the four letter word "male" in my profile would preclude Ms.
By the way I thank you for the compliment, the opposite of naive being sophistication. I did'nt drink the kool-aid... Following is a definition of sophistication
5: falsification by the use of sophistry; misleading by means of specious fallacies
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Edited 6/7/2006 4:35 am by dgreen
Matt,
I'm glad things worked for you.
This forum provides great input from some very experianced woodworkers. There's alot of great know-how, and thousands of earned credits from the school of hard knocks.
When you get done, let us know what you learned, who was right, and share some pics.
I'm happy that you are content with the deal struck with your customer. But I gotta wonder just what you might have learned from this discussion other than some people think you are under priced and others think you're spot on. Bearing in mind that you never did truly define the project, this range of "estimates" is probably to be expected. So please tell us, what info has been valuable to you and what "not so valuable?"
Valuable: -this is my first posting on any forum and it is nice to know that there are so many people out there that are willing to respond. I have a good source of information here and a valuable tool to help me in my rookie years.
-I have been doing a lot of building from red oak and a few people that I know have been critics of such wood, making statements of movement and appearance. While I was well aware that red oak was just as if not more stable than white, I have recorded the values given in this forum and now have them to use in the future. I had also never heard of this website which give shrinkage values, That will come in handy.
-I thought coming into this posting that I would get slammed for my price and that some would accuse me of taking advantage of those that use wood working as a primary means of income. However I now think that a piece that is priced in a fair range takes advantage of no one and is simply just that, priced in a fair range.
- I also take comfort in what Lee says in regards to using the project as a learing opportunity and having it be paid for. His talk of earning the right to charge 15 thousand for a table and how it takes a long time and a large list of customers before one can do so makes me think that I have my prices in the right range. I used to charge only 100 for a blanket chest, however I now charge more because I feel that the quality of my work is more and I have earned the reputation with those people in order to do so.
Not so useful-it seems as though some on this forum are quick to judge and have no reserve in unleashing thier fury on someone who is inexperienced in the craft. I think that it is important for some to keep in mind that we all haven't been doing this for a long time and we were all once just like the greenhorn of today. While I am not a beginner I am not the expert either. I strive to learn as much as I can as fast as I can and I don't appreciate being treated as inferior just because I have a few things to learn. I do realize that I left the details vague and I did so intentionally to see what kind of responses I got. Perhaps this contributed to some of this "hostility."
So another lesson learned in life thanks again.
Matt
Matt, maybe it's time to get busy on the table, no?
The bases are already completed and the top will be going together in the next few weeks. I have a few side projects that are getting in the way.
If I were you, I'd always glue up the wide expanses first and let them sit.
hi charles,
My approach with large tabletops has been to give the stock plenty of time to acclimate to the shop, then build the base of the table. Only dress and glue up the top after I have something to attach it to and hold it flat, as soon as I can get it cleaned up. Plus, then I am not constantly moving or working around/over top of the things--they're always in the way in my little shop.
Regards,
Ray Pine
I welded a little rack type system that will hold several large panels and tabletops until they're ready to go. Tabletops and large carcase sides get glued up a month or so (at least) before I'm going to need them. They're glued up with a little taken off both sides - enough to identify grain/color/etc. but with plenty of room for flattening right before they go into the project.
charles,
That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. Naw, just kidding:?) One of the shops I used to work in, did something very similar. They had a panel rack that had the clamps attached to conveyer type table, would hold a couple dozen panels at a time, and a wide belt sander that they used for final thicknessing, after glue-up. Heck I don't have enough open floor space to accomodate the footprint of that glue rack. The largest table job I've done was a pair of 48"x 10' three-pedestal conference tables for UVA. It was a royal pain to make room to set them up in the shop, much less having six sections sitting around with finish drying.... I've done longer tables, up to 14' ,but only one at a time.
Regards,
Ray
I've managed to hang on to my Plano glue racks too... after moving down in shop size then back up then down and now back up again.
Matt
Congratulations on the commission. 20 years ago, I began my woodworking business not having a clue what to charge, just knowing that I wanted to build things out of my favorite media, wood!! Charge ahead, and build it correctly. The money doesn't matter anywhere near as much as what you will learn from the process. As Lee put it so well, tuition is quite expensive.
My largest customer (in volume, repeat business, and $$$$$) is a referral from a customer that I built a 200 dollar blanket chest for 14 years ago. You never know where your next ham sandwich will come from. Good luck, and ignore the nay sayers, as their just naturally negative, and would not be happy unless they had somebody to bash around a bit!
Jeff
After reading all these messages on the pros and cons of your choice of wood, critiques, opinions etc. etc. there hasn't been one word on how you plan on finishing this table.
Are you doing it or subbing it out? This is the part where a fair amount of wood workers cut corners. After the planning, milling and fabricating , by the time it comes to finishing, they just want it done and gone.
Give some thought to this aspect. A table this large will probably see a fair amount of use. Plan your finish accordingly.
Good Luck,
Peter Gedrys
Don't you love all the blokes who could get this thing slammed out in a week to ten days? I think they forgot about applying a finish,,,, on a 13 foot tabletop,,,,,and double or triple pedestal,,,,,
What say you?
Edited 6/9/2006 4:14 pm ET by charlesstanford
Frozen, it's abundantly clear to me that you're a scientist first, a woodworker second. I agree with nearly all of your science but it's simply not practical to put all of it into action in the workshop.Lee
Guilty as charged.Book smart - wood stupid, at least relatively speaking. But read Hoadley: he explains the scientific basis of alot of woodworking practices. As a scientist myself, it gets me in the ballpark faster.“Expectation strolls through the spacious fields of Time towards Opportunity.”
Umberto Eco, The Island of the Day Before
I'm a novice with this shrinkage math stuff, but don't you need to define the beginning and end moisture points (either wood moisture or relative humidity) when you quote percentages. Are you figures related to green-to-'ovendry', for instance, or some other span of moisture reduction.
When I'm worried about wood movement in an assembled piece (not green lumber), I generally input different relative humidity points in the Shrinkulator and get a feel for how much the wood might change over that humidity span. Keep in mind where I live, the Great Northwest.
Hah! Just for fun, I put in random moisture content figures for Northern Red Oak, Southern Red Oak and White Oak. Casts a shadow on CStan's claims:
Shrinkulator Summary Table
Species
Initial MC
Final MC
Initial Dim
Final Dim Radial
Final Dim Tangent.
Change Radial
Change Tangent.
Oak, Northern Red
15.0
9.0
10
9.91
9.81
-0.09
-0.19
Oak, Southern Red
15.0
9.0
10
9.90
9.74
-0.10
-0.26
Oak, White
15.0
9.0
10
9.88
9.76
-0.12
-0.24MC = Moisture Content
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/5/2006 4:40 pm by forestgirl
I was just working with the numbers as posted... As Dennis Moore would say (if he were a woodworker instead of a Highwayman), "Blimey, this redistribution of moisture is trickier than I thought!"“Expectation strolls through the spacious fields of Time towards Opportunity.”
Umberto Eco, The Island of the Day Before
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