*
I have been studying the post on glueing up panels and want to know how much glue is the right amount. I am using three red oak boards 3/4″ thick and 5 to 7″ wide and 45″long and they will be shelves. It says clamping pressure should only be enough to squeeze out glue. A lot of glue isn’t taking a lot of clamp pressure. Also how much clamping time difference when temp is in lower 50s?
Thanks Tammy
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast -
Our favorite articles and videos -
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
*
Spread a little bit of glue on the edges of both boards and rub them together to spread and even out the glue. Have some wet rags ready to wipe up the squeeze out before it starts to dry. Alternate clamps above surface and below of the planks to provide an even pressure and not 'bow' the panel. Use at least 6 good clamps evenly spaced. A pressure applied by a 600 lb. gorilla is definately not required. 50 degrees, let the panel stay clamped over night at least(are you using titebond or somethig like it?) just to be sure you have a good bond. There are a lot of good articles in many issues of FW that discuss in detail the procedures used to glue up panels/table tops/shelves. The procedures are about the same for all glueing processes.
Any questions, send another E-Mail and you will get them answered.
*I am using titebond II. My first shelf I glued I used a lot of glue-maby too much- had a lot of squeez-out and let set for 2 hrs but it did not hold. Must have been the low temp factor. I will bring the rest inside the house after clamping to quicken the process.Thanks for your input Jon R.Tammy
*Tammy,I was loking for you thursday night in the woodworking chat. Hope you can make it next time.Both surfaces must be wetted with glue. Use the minimum required to do this. I agree with Jon, that rubbing the surfaces together spreads the glue from one surface to the other and shows where more is required. I use a plumbers flux brush to spread the glue. Clamp the surfaces together with enoungh pressure to get squeeze out along the entire joint and then stop. Leave clamped overnight.Good Luck.TDF
*tighten up the clamps until you can see some small beads squeeze out along the entire length. over time you'll get a feeling for how much glue to put on. now some people say that you need to put glue on both edges, i don't, and haven't had any problems. run your finger along the edge after you've put the glue on and you should be left with a decent amount. i wouldn't be gluing up panels at 50. the cold temperature leaves you with visible glue lines and a weaker bond than if you were gluing up at above 60. a small paint roller is really good for applying the right amount of glue also, but i generally only use this method for covering large areas. hope this helps
*I was not home Thursday night to sit in on the chat. I have missed both so far. Just got back from HD to buy more clamps. Now I have 7 long ones. I purposely planed my boards a shade over 3/4" before glue up so I could run them through the shop's 36" planer again. So will glue lines still show up after planeing again? I also brought them inside after glueup.Tammy
*I was glueing my shelves based on the post inside the post[how to make cabinet doors flat!Tammy
*Tammy, Why Titebond II ?
*Armin I use Titebond II to sometimes make yard stakes [sign on a stake] to sell at the craft mall. It is for use on outdoor furniture, picnic tables, mail boxs and birdhouses. It's the glue I use for crafts that will be out in the weather and exterior. If it is weather proof it has to be good stuff for indoors!Tammy
*Tammy, Titebond II is not as strong as regular titebond, many people assume since it's water resistant it must be better. Not so, I learned this the hard way, I used it to laminate a handrail only to have it delaminate shortly after removing the clamps. I called Franklin glue and wanted to know what I did wrong, I was told titebond II was designed for water resistance the trade off was a somewhat weaker joint. In your current application it is not critical, however keep it in mind for the future. Like everything else you will get 50 people to dispute my statement, been there, done that, when in doubt call the manufacture.
*FWIW, the Franklin website lists the bond strength of Titebond II as 3,750 psi (on Maple) and that of regular Titebond as 3,600 psi (on Maple).The link is Titebond.com Click "Products" on the left side of the page and you'll be able to read the technical specs for yourself.
*CStanford, I'm fully aware of what the data states, the purpose of my post was to make the reader aware of my experience with TitebondII and the resulting conversation with the senior chemist at Franklin Glue. The chemist asked in detail of what had been done, I explained and asked if I should send a sample for testing. The reply was Titebond II is not as strong as regular Titebond and should not be used for high stress laminations. I have been at this for 35 years and that was the only delamination problem I ever had. Once you have scrapped a months worth of work you begin to error on the side of caution.
*Tammy,What are you using to apply the glue? I use a glue spreader made from a piece of laminate (any thin stiff material will work) with small notches cut out with the band saw. This is just like spreading mastic for tile setting. I squeeze the glue on to one surface using an "S" pattern with a medium sized bead and then "comb" it out even - always works.Best,Seth
*My finger!Tammy
*Let me guess, then you wipe it on the underside of your bench or your jeans! Oh the mess, oh the pain!Seth
*No, I have something I bought at HD called Box of Rags [paper towels in a box] that I keep on the workbench and they are great for stain wiping . I also do a lot of my craft painting in my shop and I use them for wiping paint too.Tammy
*Box of Rags? Isn't that right next to the "Bucket 'o Caulk"? :)Scott
*Armin, I would submit to you that regardless of the relative strength of the members of the Titebond family, none of them are suitable for gluing a laminated handrail, however I'll defer to your experience.A PVA would be my absolute last choice for any type of laminated work. The point behind my post was simply to post the specs from the official Titebond site. Perhaps you ought to ask your contact to review the wording. The discrepancy between what you were told and what is posted on their website might be nothing more than a typographical error, the correction of which, might help others who visit the site.
*Tammy, the trick to a good glue up is a good joint. If the joint is tight and clean before the glue, then you really don't need much at all. Just spread the glue thinly and evenly on both surfaces (your finger is just fine) then clamp with light to moderate pressure. Wetting the joint with a damp rag prior to applying glue can also help with absorption. Tite Bond II will work just fine if you need it but you don't if you are not exposing it to the weather. Remember, even Tightbond II is not water proof.
*CStanford, My hats of to you, everybody else seems to think Titebond is the glue of choice for laminated handrails. I switched to a resin, powder catalyst glue a long time ago. I still use titebond for nonstressed joints,I only use titebond II for light duty exterior applications. The chemist at Franklin was very specfic, Titebond II was not as strong as reg Titebond, if it was they would have phased out reg Titebond a long time ago.
*I'm with CStanford. PVA of any sort is the last type of glue I'd use for any laminated structure in my particular line of work- furnituremaking. But if I've got it correct Armin, you build stairs? And many of those stairs are curved laminated structures, so your experience of using PVA and finding it satisfactory in many circumstances is, at a minimum, interesting. How do you cope with the various manifestations of creep that are an irritating characteristic of PVA? Slainte, RJ.
*What is PVA?Tammy
*PVA is polyvinylacetate. You will also see the word "aliphatic" used in conjunction with PVA. All this means is that the PVA has an open chain formulation. There are about 120 different PVA formulations that constitute "glue." Some are waterproof. While others are not waterproof. All PVA will "creep" which is why it is NOT good for laying up bent laminations. Even the manufacturers tell you that the glue will creep.Here's the things I do with PVA glue to make it work better. First, I find most PVA glue becomes too thick within about 3 months of opening a new container. This limits glue penetration into the wood, limits "open" time, and causes weak joints. I add a >>littleI use a solder flux brush as a glue brush, and coat both surfaces evenly. If it's cold (below about 60 degrees) I heat the glue briefly in the microwave after it's been thinned. About 8-12 seconds will get to where it feel just warm to the touch (about 102 F). This seems to help the glue work better.On absorbant woods (like firs and pine) that seem to "drink up" the glue, I like to put a "prime coat" of glue on both side of the joint, let it absorb into the wood (takes about 5 minutes), then come back and put a second, heavier coat onto just one piece of wood.Lastly is clamping. Gently, just enough pressure to get some glue squeeze out of the joint. Too much pressure and you will have a dry joint because you have squeezed most of the glue out. I've just finished a good sized back board for an audio rack (2 pieces of bubinga that are each 11-1/2 inches wide by 55 inches tall) in sub-50 degree conditions using Titebond II and you can't see the glue joint. In fact, they look book-matched. The sides have been put on (to hide cables) plus a center divider to keep power cables separated from signal cables. All pieces glued using Titebond II as described. The final finished piece has two coats of oil/urethane finish and then wax - the look is spectacular - and not one problem with any of the glue-ups.
*I made two 75" spline joints today for practice. My pattern calls for two 22 1/2 degree splined miter joints on my corner cabinet. They turned out ok but not perfect. It was fun setting up the table saw to do them. I have my shelves, top and bottom glued up and ripped to size front to back. I tried cutting the miters for the shelves on the school shop TS and I think I can get better results on my compound MS in my shop at home. I am still having fun in my shop class! Tammy
*Steve thank you for the detailed answer to my PVA question. I like your idea of heating up your glue. I started keeping my glue bottle in my pocket to keep it warm and I think it helps to keep it from getting too thick. I ended up throwing away part of one bottle because it was so thick it wouldn't come out of the bottle very easy and when it did come out it was almost as thick as bread dough. Thanks Tammy
*Sgian, I must have led a bunch of people astray with poor wording. In my earlier post I mentioned a delamination problem using Titebond II. That was many years ago, it was the last time I used Titebond for stressed laminations. Since then I use Unibond 800, a powder catalyzed resin glue that produces a hard glue joint that will not creep. I did not mean to imply titebond is my glue of choice, far from it. I did mean to say Titebond II is not as strong as regular Titebond, which is what the rep at Franklin Glue told me.
*Tammy, it sounds like your glue might be getting frozen in your unheated shop. That alone can cause a glue failure, but i wouldn't glue in the low 50's, or even low 60's, for that matter.As to how much glue, i spread one side, rub the joint together, and clamp as hard as my [female] hands can. I aim for squeeze-out beads about the size of glass pinheads. I wouldn't wipe with a damp cloth bec you'll smear glue in the grain, but wait until the beads are somewhere between rubbery and firm, and slice them off with a razor or a scraper.
*Hi Splintergroupie thanks for your reply. I am trying to make it a point to keep my glue warm so I bring it inside the house when I come in from the shop. I cut my 22 1/2 degree mitered spline joints last night in shop class. I followed the instructions in the pattern. I cut my boards to width with a bevel cut and left the blade at 22 1/2 and lowered it to 3/8" high. Mowed the saw fence close to the fence-1/8" from top of blade to fence- then clamped a fence to the other side of the blade with enough clearance for 2 boards to fit in. It turned out that way because of the saw motor electric box wouldn't let me clamp closer. It just so happened that the extra board in the slot had a bit of bow to it toward the blade and it made it very hard to slide the board being cut through the slot.Boy I'm glad it did because it kept the board I was cutting very tight against the TS fence. I had to get help to slide my boards through but they turned out great. One of my classmates was really impressed with my set up to make the cut. I believe my results would not have been as good if my extra fence board had not been bowed. I am very happy with the outcome. It was the cut I was most worried about. Still having fun in shop! Tammy
*I have been using 'Weldbond' for all things I want to glue up that req a really good hold. It is a PVA and according to the makers is pretty much 'everything' proof. So far it has worked well on outdoor furniture and is a very strong glue.As to laminated stuff, well I havent tried it yet, but I have noted the comments above and will avoid it and potentially save myself a very long day. I remember seeing a comment once by James Krenov, where he said " if you have squeeze out then you used too much". While I agree with that in theory, I need the squeezed out glue to tell me that I didnt miss a bit. Now for me the trick is to use enough, but not have a wave of it going everywhere. I tend to favour the 'more has got to be better than not enough' way of thinking.I clamp at a moderate pressure so as not to push out all the glue. Rubbing a joint and then leaving it will still grab with good strength for bits that wont get higher loads.I made a load of clamps, cheap, and easy to use. can also get a huge force going if need be, but dont need opposing clamps to prevent bowing.good to hear your enjoying yourself Tammy
*SplinterGroupie described the right amount of squeeze out - small pin heads. If it drips on your bench, you used too much.Tammy, I used to have the same problem you had. I used a Bucket Boss organizer in a five-gallon bucket and hauled the glue and other stuff in every night. It's not really a big deal.
*under 50 digs, leave it in clamps as long as possible. I don't like glue under that temp, first of all it doesn't run right. as for amount of glue, better off with too much then not enough.
*I'm glad you got help pushing your boards through, but if i follow some of your post--i confess i have no certainty what you meant by Mowed the saw fence close to the fence-1/8" from top of blade to fence- then clamped a fence to the other side of the blade with enough clearance for 2 boards to fit in. --but it sounds like you might have been trying to do a bevel cut with a loose piece of board trapped bet the sawblade and the fence, while introducing spring into a bowed piece of wood you were passing through the blade. THIS IS DANGEROUS!!! STOP IT!!!If that's not the scenario, never mind me. It's just that i have a finger that doesn't have a knuckle anymore bec i had a small accident on the table saw when i didn't use a push stick on a piece that got trapped bet the blade and fence. How's your credit limit on your Mastercard?Back to glue...even if you didnt' freeze the glue, it might have gotten frozen in transit. I used to use a lot more yellow glue (mostly poly glue now), and my supplier would only buy and stockpile when the weather was above freezing. If he ran out, he was out until spring, bec he wouldn't sell glue that might have gotten frozen on the truck. I've bought paint a few times here in the Great White North that had gotten frozen, too, though the store warehoused it in a heated space.
*Splintergroupie Sorry my wording got a little messed up. I had set the TS blade at 22 1/2 degrees and made the first cut with my board laying flat on the saw to get the bevel on the edge. For the spline cut I left the blade set at 22 1/2. The blade is leaning toward the fence. I moved the fence to 1/8" from top of blade, then on the other side of the blade I clamped another fence so I would have a slot to slide my board through. My board is 3/4" thick but was not able to clamp the temperary fence that close to the blade so I put two boards on edge and clamped the fence next to them. Now I have a slot between the two fences wide enough to put two boards on edge and slide them through.The board I was cutting was straight, the board beside it had some bow to it and I set it so thet the bow was toward the blade. It had enough bow to it to keep the board I was cutting pressed against the TS fence. We held the bowed board in place and slid the other board through. The board being cut had the bevel point next to the TS fence on the 1/8" side. What I ended up with was a board with a bevel cut along one edge with a slot 90 degrees to the bevel. Another board is cut the same way. The two beveled edges are glued to each other after you insert a spline in the slot.Sorry I dont know how to post pictures to show you my pattern details. I hope this is eaisier to understand. Tammy
*i We held the bowed board in place and slid the other board through.Ok, i get it now, but i still don't like an operation that requires a lot of hand-holding of boards by multiple people near a saw blade, esp since you're leaving just an 1/8th" of wood bet the blade and the fence on a work piece you're holding vertically. At the very least, i would screw the bowed board to the secondary fence to eliminate a set of hands and an unpredictable helper. I would also lighten up on the depth of the spline cut, not only for safety, to leave more holding wood bet the blade and fence, but because you wouldn't have as much opportunity to blow off the corner during glue up with the glue putting hydraulic pressure on the joint. If it doesnt have so much flex, you'll get a tighter joint, too.BTW, i'm late to meeting you, but i'm delighted to see another gal in the woodshop. Are you in college or high school or adult ed or ?
*I am taking adult ed classes at the local school.I went to the wood working show in Louisville, KY. Friday[my first]and never knew there were so many shop jigs available. I learned so much there, I had lots of questions answered. They were eager to help.Tammy
*Ah, Tammy, you're making me jealous about having a show nearby... After i started my woodworking business, i occasionally took adult ed. classes at the local HS to get to use the big planers and the heavy-duty lathes. What a bargain! Do you have a good teacher? I'm also curious...what's the male:female ratio of students in the class, and ages?
*Splintergroupie There are four women and I think seven men in our class. I guess my teacher is OK. He answers any questions I have. Tammy
*Hope this doesn't get lost in the clutter. Low 50's is close to what is known as the "chalk temperature" for titebond glue (IIRC, is 55 degrees). At or below this temperature, the glue displays a chalky appearance and does not adhere sufficiently. Either take your work inside or make sure the wood is warmer than this when you apply the glue.As far as your original question, enough glue to cause a slight sweating bead out is sufficient. You don't need or want the glue running down in streams like you see on TV shows. Wasteful and sloppy.
*Thanks everyone for your returned messages to my questions. I will try to do my glue up jobs in warm temperatures and will try not to make a mess of things when glueing[a little bit must go a long way]. I have been waiting for the temperature to warm up to glue my mitered spline joints. I can hardley wait to see them done up.Thanks againTammy
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled