I was looking over the Lie Nielsen web site and I saw they sell stones up to 30,000 grit. I’m not currently prepared to pay $289 for a stone, but the 16,000 grit stone is only $98, which I might be able to do. Is it necessary to go that fine? I used to just have a 4000 stone and I remember my 8000 stone produced a huge leap in the quality of the cuts my plane made. Will 16,000 do the same or is there a reason most people stop making stones at 8000?
jeremy
Replies
There are diminishing returns the finer you go. Unless one wants to sharpen for sharpening's sake.
I would argue that going beyond 4k-6k is a waste if one is working. Heck, most of the time it was a 2k stone sitting on my bench as I worked and I would take a few swipes between operations with chisels. Smoothers I use to use an 8k before final passes.
Any more I have returned to oil stones and haven't a clue as to corresponding grits to the Shaptons I use to use. Certainly a fine edge.
Take care, Mike
You would be hard pressed to find blades sharper than those in use in a microtome, which are honed on a ground glass surface using fine oil and carborundum powders. Or were some years ago.
They make these nano-crystalline diamond film coated solid carbid cutters these days.
Of course you will need a plasma ion sharpener and the atomic force microscope to check the sharpness.
Chris
---
Chris Scholz
Galoot-Tools
[email protected]
Are these the ones that are like the cheshire cat in Alice in Wonderland? They keep getting smaller and smaller until they disappear completely at which time you are really only buying very expensive substrate?
Yes, that's why they use atomic force microscopes to check the polish.
---
Chris Scholz
Galoot-Tools
[email protected]
Very neat, I am almost tempted to try your blades. Only shortage of funds prevents, but I am willing to trade part of my fine collection of crud for a blade.
Jeremy,
I can't imagine that the results are noticeable past 6k. I use 800,1200,6000 water stones to great effect. I would think that the extra benefit of grits that high are gone in a swipe or two. I think we collectively apply too much emphasis on the perfect edge and not enough time applying the edge to the work.
Just an opinion.
-Paul
Jeremy,
If you are going to get into honing in a serious way, you need to have your own electron microscope. Though they are a bit pricy, they will let you see the increased fine-ness of your edges as you go through 30,000, 60,000 and 120,000 grit stones.
It is good to keep these precious stones in a vacuum when not in use, because continued exposure to air molecules will destroy the quality of the surfaces.
It has been over seven years now that I have not done any woodwork, but my tools get sharper and sharper with every passing week. I have stopped eating in recent weeks. It takes precious time away from sharpening.
I am glad to find a like-minded person.
Good luck with your sharpening.
Forget about the woodwork. It was only a good reason to get into sharpening. That is the highest calling of all.
You are about to become one with the universe.
:-)
Mel
PS there are no facts in my message. Once in a while, while reading Knots, I get the urge to do creative writing. Your message inspired me. Thank you for the opportunity
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
My Granite powder( AKA Flakes) mixed with 3-in-1 Oil is equivalent to 1,500,000. My irons are so sharp I can skin our cat with them! She's not really fond of that, especially when it's -20°F...............
I'm also distressed to know that noone has mentioned my revolutionary mix. I must step up the marketing effort.
Ray?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 8/13/2007 8:18 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Mel,
You should put together a collection of your writings. I can just see some archeologist in the future coming across your writings and marveling at the pool of knowledge s/he has just stumbled on. Something akin to the Rosetta Stone.
They will also conclude that during this time period we were more advanced than they would have imagined and wonder why they can't replicate the quality of work / skill / et al that our generation has acquired.
Your writings are good for the soul!
Alan - planesaw
I agree - I consider Mel's "The Wit of Woodworking" to be a classic collection-in-the-making. Who wants yet another book on sharpening blades? I'd rather have Mel's sharp wit.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
His writings will add a new dimension to the making of book cases.
Those suckers had better be heavy duty and LARGE! <G>
Sprinkled with some of Rays jokes and it's sure to be a winner.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
My wit, and Mel's wisdom:-P) combined would be a very small book, indeed. Maybe it would qualify as a micro-tome (see previous post). You would have to have Mel's electron microscope, to read its pages.
Ray
I beg to differ Ray. Between you, Bob and Mel, sprinkle in a little John Thompson (Sarge?), and I find no need for the Comedy Channel which I have since had Dish take off my roster of channels. A whole $5 saved!!! I'm gonna put it towards one of them there E-lektron mycrowscopes sos I kin see the keenness of the edges on my blades. Just like Mel recermmended, for I too, wish to become one with the universe.
That was a great post Mel, had me about rolling on the floor laughing.
Cheers,
Chris.
Alan,
Good to hear from you.
Glad you enjoy my messages. I enjoy yours. Wow, I got compliments from you, Bob and Derek all in one day. I will not let this go to my head.I do need to take a hint from Bob, and write shorter messages. I don't want to break his bookcase. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Don't listen to me. I look all over the place for your posts.
Besides, I have plenty of heavy duty wood for the booksace to house youe epic novel(s). When will it be available?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 8/13/2007 2:49 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Oh Boy, a sharpening query! We don't get these often ...
Hi Jeremy, I am teasing. Raising sharpening topics is like talking religeon ... or brand preferences ... or ...
Whether one uses sandpaper or waterstones (and then what brand!) or oilstones or diamond stones or diamond paste (and then is it powder, water soluble or oil soluble)...
Whether one uses a honing guide (and which type, side clamping or face clamping?) or freehand (and how many fingers .. ok, I'm just kidding about that ... no, wait a mo, I'm not). And do you do it forwards, backwards, forward-and-backwards, or sideways (yes, there is that as well - I am going to be reviewing Harrelson Stanley's new guide soon).
AND then you raise the question of grit level! This topic was already too much to deal with but now it is OTT.
Some will say that 16000 is waaay overkill, but I think it is obligatory. Just kidding .. checking to see if you are paying attention. You were referring to Shapton waterstones (technically ceramic stones).
It would be tempting to say "this is the prescription", but someone will come along and disagree. And so they should. There are just too many variables to consider. The bottom line ... hone to a level that works for you. As Mike said, a chisel is honed to a lower level than a smoother blade, which can be honed to a different level to a jack plane blade.
I have tried them all - in the interests of finding the least intrusive method. I actually hate sharpening, lack the patience for it, and do it because I must. What works quickest?
Having used King waterstones for years (800, 1200 and 6000 - later replaced with 8000), now using Shaptons (1000, 5000 and 8000), I can say that the edges I get are similar on each. What is different is the amount of upkeep (the Shaptons go longer between blades before one needs to be flattened) and the feedback as one works (Shaptons are harder and provide a more direct feel).
Sometimes I just hone an edge on a 1200 diamond stone and polish it up on a strop with green rouge (.5 microns) and then freshen with a plain and hard leather strop. I get great edges from diamond paste on hardwood as well.
While you can indeed get away with a lower grit waterstone, the higher the grit, the smoother the edge, and the fewer the serrations. This translates to a longer lasting edge since jagged serration break off more easily. One might lose the intial "sharpness" after a few swipes, but the finer (e.g. 8000) medium will provide for a longer lasting edge.
I have not used a 16000, and I doubt that it would make a significant difference to the performance of my blades. I am sure that it would perform better, but the question is whether you believe this to be important enough to purchase one. You can get a 6000 stone to mimic a 8000/10000 stone by using it dry (after first using it wet). What happens is that the grit is crushed into smaller particles. For this reason some don't buy a finer stone. It was only when my 6000 King wore out that I purchased the 8000.
Hope this helps and does not confuse.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 8/13/2007 1:57 am ET by derekcohen
Derek,
You do us all a great service by continually answering questions on sharpening. I remember when you first answered my question a while back. You are always patient and understanding, and you never talk down. You are quite a guy. You'd probably do well as a psychologist! You have written some classic pieces on sharpening, including some with photos and step by step instructions. Have you thought of making a list of the Knots numbers of those messages, and posting the list as part of your response to future sharpening inquiries? Thomas Lie Nielsen and Leonard Lee have their well known treatises on sharpening on the market. However, the things that you have written go way beyond what is published in that literature. I hope someday you put out a short book which incorporates the information in that you have put on Knots over the years. I don't believe that book would make you rich, but I believe it would be a best seller in the woodworking world. The thing you bring to the table is your attitude toward your work, and toward continually looking for ways to do things better. You are naturally inquisitive, and you are a tinkerer, and you check the result of each new tinkering. That is a great approach toward life, as well as toward woodworking.Keep up the great responses.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I hear Festool is coming out with a machine that is going to revolutionize sharpening.
Tis what the world needs...another sharpening machine...
Take care, Mike
Tis what the world needs...another sharpening machine...
Yes Mike.
And now Triton have brought out one as well that will sell for about half (or less) than the smaller Tormek (which it appears to resemble).
View Image
Only thing is, one needs sunglasses when using it.
Still, I may be tempted to supplement my high speed dry grinder as this will enable me to hollow grind to the edge of the bevel without fear of the steel losing temper. Just how close to the edge of the bevel do you go with your Tormek?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi Derek, when I do a rehab of a new-to-me plane and the iron is in poor shape, I grind right to the edge because it then means I have to fully reshape. But most of the time I use a belt sander. If the wife's Tormek is set up fr her turning tools, I'll use it the same...all the way to the edge.
The only time I grind (hand crank, belt sander, bench grinder, Tormek) otherwise is if there is some sort of damage and then I use what is set up and at hand. I'm not a very particular person when it comes to sharpening gear. Heck, like I've mentioned before, I've used river rocks as slips, smooth-poured concrete slabs on-site, toothpaste as honing goo, whatever. Doesn't matter.
I do have a Foley grinder which I keep two widths of wheels I radius the edge on. One is a 3/16" wide wheel, the other a 7/16" wide wheel. I use that for molding plane profiles that need redone. Sure makes getting the profile close pretty quick. Slip stones from there.
Looks like (from memory) the Triton is the Shepech brand rebaged. But I cannot find theirs anywhere anymore. The links I have are dead.
And for $99 US there is always the Harbor Freight model...http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95236
Take care, Mike
If you're going to spend that kind of money, consider getting one of these instead. They can be reasonably inexpensive on eBay:View Imagehttp://www.amazon.com/Makita-9820-2-...7391129&sr=8-1Also get the coarse wheel Highland Hardware makes up for these to supplement the 1000-grit wheel that comes with the machine. The stock wheel takes too long to grind HSS knives.You can't sharpen planer and jointer knives very well on a Tormek, but you sure as heck can sharpen any plane iron, chisel or carving tool you have on the Makita as the fence either adjusts to the angle you need or it comes off with two knurled screws so you can freehand.The wheels are also self-flattening. After hollowing them doing your gouges, simply do another long planer knife or two to dress the wheel dead flat again.
“When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think...that a time is to come when those (heirlooms) will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, ‘See! This our father did for us.’ “ --John Ruskin.
Edited 8/17/2007 10:06 pm by BobSmalser
The wife sharpens the 12 1/2" planer blades with ease on her Tormek. Makes short work on 8" and 6" jointer blades. I've done my 18" planer blades on her T-machine.
The Makitas can be a hit or miss as to the reliability. But when they work fine, they are strong beasts.
Take care, Mike
Mike, Bob, boys and girls
Perhaps I did not stress the intent of my question well enough (I am quite softly spoken), however I have not heard a direct reply. But thanks for the run down of grinders anyway! :)
The reason I raised the possibility of a W&D grinder (I do not view these beasts as a "sharpener") is that they are safer if one wishes to hollow grind to the very edge of a blade. I do this all the time on my belt sander for flat bevels, but am very wary on my high speed 6" dry grinder (with 60 grit white Nortons wheel) since there is greater danger of over-heating the edge (and even though I cannot recall the last time I did so - I am reasonably proficient in handling this hyperactive child).
My questions are, "how many hollow grind to the very edge of the blade?" "And if you do, do you do this on a high speed or low speed machine?"
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 8/18/2007 12:41 am ET by derekcohen
Edited 8/18/2007 12:43 am ET by derekcohen
Dunno why you like a hollow grind so much. Besides easily burnt, you lose a lot of steel every time the tool kisses the grinder.
When all we had were bench ginders, there was little choice, at least initially. Now there are options. I avoid hollow grinding wherever possible. And I'm not the only one.
“When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think...that a time is to come when those (heirlooms) will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, ‘See! This our father did for us.’ “ --John Ruskin.
Edited 8/18/2007 12:50 am by BobSmalser
Your new, reworded and more specific question(s) are:My questions are, "how many hollow grind to the very edge of the blade?" "And if you do, do you do this on a high speed or low speed machine?"
And contained in my previous post to you was:If the wife's Tormek is set up for her turning tools, I'll use it the same...all the way to the edge.
Seems a direct answer to both the questions <g>.
The mention of the bench grinder answers:(1) Hollow grind, yes(2) High speed (dry)
The mention of the hand crank answers:(1) Hollow grind, yes(2) Low speed (dry)
The mention of the Tormek answers:(1) Hollow grind, yes(2) Low speed (wet)
The mention of the belt sander answers:(1) Hollow grind, no(2) High speed (dry)
The mention of ... wasn't there something else, too? Well, you get the picture. lol
But just to be clear, the only edge tool-type I do not grind to the edge on is profiled ones.
Take care, Mike
Oh, I can add LapSharp (don't have it here anymore), LV MK.II Power Sharpener (still need to return it), Makita Wet Doo-Wop, Delta Wet Doo-Wop, and ... and ...
I hollow grind just to the edge of the blade, Derek.Then hone the edge a few times between grinding.I'd say that there's little difference between hollow grinding to just the edge and flat grinding to just touch the edge, but that's just me.In my opinion, I'd stick to what you've got there already - the belt sander may be a touch more aggressive than the bench grinder as far as removing material, however.Cheers,eddieedit: high speed 3600rpm or so Taiwanese $80.00 bench grinder
Edited 8/18/2007 1:51 am by eddiefromAustralia
Hi Derek
Staying away from the edge has always made perfect sence to me, as I find edge nicks quick to clean up with wet and dry, lately I have been using 3M microfilm for final honing and found this to be a real boon for me.
However the I may have to deviate from my usual method for the Berg shown in the image attached. I'm fairly sure perfectly good carving chisles are available on the market today(obviously the guy I purchased this from gets a different set of catalouges to me).
Still this chisle stands as a perfect example of when you have to go over the edge!
Cheers
John
Good grief, John! Who performed such peversity on something as sacred as an AE Berg chisel?!
I agree - go to the edge ... go to the edge! :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
View Image“When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think...that a time is to come when those (heirlooms) will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, ‘See! This our father did for us.’ “ --John Ruskin.
They make it look pretty easy...Essentially the same size (same length, mine were a bit heftier). Point being, it only takes a minute, shift the blade, do the rest. As long as one isn't pressing with their weight (bends the bar) the stop is very effective at getting the blades evenly across.
That they were evenly ground was shown by honging--which I only did when sledding shop-sawn veneers through.
Take care, Mike
In my workshop we use an inexpensive set of King stones. The polishing stone is the most expensive at about £45 here.
800, 1200 and 8,000 to polish. If I want to get fancy 10,000 grit waterstone as it has a nice wooden base.
Wood can be very abrasive. My tools are very sharp and further improvements of ploish do not seem worth the extra time involved.
best wishes,
David Charlesworth
Stanford,
Your comment to David seems to be a putdown of waterstones. What is your preference?
Alan - planesaw
Jeremy,
I sharpen my chisels as well as my plane blades sharp enough to shave the hair on my arm, I figure if it's sharp enough to shave with ,it's plenty sharp for me. I've used quite a few methods over the years, everything from having the chisels sharpened on a fancy Tormek sharpener to using a piece of "1 flat steel with finer and finer grits of sand paper. I've also used diamond sharpeners as well as just plane old cheapy sharpening stones, while ;true the more expensive ways are faster and easier it's also true with a little time and patience you can achieve the same results with simple finer grits of wet/dry sand paper. I suppose if I had the extra money I'd own a fancy sharpening system but since I don't have extra money lying around, I guess I'm stuck sharpening my stuff the hard way........
Sincerely
Jim at Clark Customs
A 45-year collection of oil stones. Coarse and medium carborundum, soft, medium, hard and black novaculite (Arkansas) stones, and various medium and fine carborundum, India and novaculite carving slips.
The two thinner novaculite stones have been in my family since the 1930's, and need flattening once or twice a generation. They do just as good a job as water stones, but remain flat significantly longer, and the harder novaculite stones never need flattening at all.
They are expensive. Today Hall's Proedge, a knifemaker supplier, makes some of the best.
I strongly recommend learning to sharpen sans jigs, power sharpeners and other training wheels. If you can't see the flat you made on a cutting edge bevel, then adjust your hold for the next strokes to bring that flat closer to what you intend, how do you ever expect to develop the same control over cutting tools on wood? Freehand sharpening is part of and directly related to your hand tool skills, and doing it the way your Grandfather did may not be fashionable, but it's important.
Here's how I do it under Basic Sharpening:
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl#smalser
“When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think...that a time is to come when those (heirlooms) will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, ‘See! This our father did for us.’ “ --John Ruskin.
Metod, these abbreviations are beyond me: what is "AR"? -Surely not "American Redneck"?
And what is "OCD"?
I hate to think I am missing something (;).
Nonetheless, for honing of chisels and plane blades I use no mechanical means,preferring a good quality diamond plate (fast , stays flat, good for carbide etc, does not cry when cambering blades )with kerosene.If the wood type deserves it I have a 1200 Kingstone-which I use with kerosene, not water. A variety of man made and natural oil and water stones remains on the tool cabinet shelves, with the exception of a recently acquired Chinese natural black water stone which still impresses me.
For all other things, from drill bits to lathe tools, I use mechanised means eg bench grinders, belt grinder, face plate sander (good for drill bits),buffing wheels and dedicated planer knife grinder.
One of these days I may set up my surface grinder to do planer knives...
Something-retentive and obsessive something disorder, I think Phillip.Now the senility's kicking in (Old Codger's Disease - that's what it might stand for!) - can't remember the missing words.Cheers,eddie(firmly tongue-in-cheek and thinking that you were too, with no sleight intended on anyone, either.)Edited 8/18/2007 6:06 am by eddiefromAustralia Metod,
For sharpening, I grind on an old bench grinder if the honed bevel is greater than a mm or so, then/otherwise use a bit of 2000# wet and dry glued to an offcut of (thick) MDF, strop on a bit of paper with green rouge (or the palm of my hand if I forget that there is an audience - the paper's far safer.) Cheap, quick and easy.
Edited 8/18/2007 6:13 am by eddiefromAustralia
Phillip,I wasn't able to find "AR" in this thread. Maybe it got deleted in an edit. In any case, AR is the official US Postal Service abbreviation for Arkansas, so in a thread on sharpening it would most likely be in reference to Arkansas stones. The "OCD" was in Stanford's post 25 to Planesaw. From the context it's no doubt a reference to Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.Both of these pop up very quickly in their respective listings at http://www.abbreviations. com. You might find it a useful site for these sorts of things, if you are able to get past the advertising.Dan
Metod,
f) (there is no f)
f) (Recycle into something else?)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
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