I am in the process of making a prototype of a smallish (10″x12″x9″) box for a potential client. If I get it right (particulary the high gloss finish), he wants me to make 40 – 60 a month. Good bread and butter work.
I’m assuming that the prototype will knock his socks off and I’ll get the deal, so I’m already spending the money I will earn as a result. One of the things I have wanted for a long time is a HPLV system, so apart from not knowing anything about spraying and what type of system to get, my main concern is this.
I live in v. high humidity, semi tropical enviroment of lovely Tampa (not abode of choice). I understand that when you spray in high humidity that you get something call blushing? How do I avoid this in a non a/c workshop (think sweaty skin covered in sawdust…itchy yet?). Is it even worth trying to spray in this environment?
BTW, hi to those of you know me….it’s been a while, but finally my machines are out of storage and in my little shop. Can’t tell you how good it feels to be making sawdust after a year of abstinence.
Thanks
Alison
Replies
Dear Alison,
I use lacquer to spray classical guitars that I build and have had good success with adding 1/2 ounce lacquer retarder/thinner to each pint of lacquer. My summer humidity is only about 75-80%, so you will need to experiment to see what works for you.
Good luck,
Jack
Alison,
I agree with Jack. Adding a retarder and thinning the lacquer with a solvent is what you want to do. How much retarder to add depends very much on what type of retarder you use. A powerful lacquer retarder like Glycol Ether is usually added to constitute no more than a 1 - 2 % reduction. A weaker retarder such as PM Acetate (my retarder of choice) is usually used to at up to 10% reduction, depending on your needs.
Much depends on what type and brand of lacquer you plan on using. Some lacquers, such as the Deft brushing/spraying lacquer, already have a fair amount of retarder in the factory packaging. What I would recommend that you do is first settle on the exact brand and type of lacquer that you intend to use and then call the Manufactorer's customer service and ask to speak to someone who is familiar with the product and how to use it. Then describe your situation, local, etc., and go with whatever they suggest in terms of adding thinner and/or a retarder. If you have problems after that, come back and tell us exactly what you're using, how you're reducing it and what problems you run into and we'll be able to help you fine tune the mix to suit your particular needs. I like to omit lacquer thinner completely and instead reduce with a 50/50 blend of PM Acetate and MEK. The average relative humidity here in Portland is only about 50%, though.
Regards,
Kevin
Let me recommend you get a copy of Charon's "Spray Painting". Amazon has it.
Spray painting is not something you pick up and do. There is a lot to it and good instuction and practice will make everything go much better. In the shop I was involved with new finisher spend couple of weeks learning and practising before they did anything real.
For example, what types of finishes are you going to spray? Do you have a spray booth? (nesessary for some finishes). What type of HVLP system are you considering? There are two: turbine and conversion. Of the two, the conversion is to be preferred.
Get the book before you make you choice of sprayer. It will give you the info you need to make the choice, tell you how to mix and thin finishes and how to go about spraying.
Howie's made some great suggestion here. I'm not familiar with that particular book. But, I was initially taught out of an old trade school text book on proper spray techniques. It can certainly shorten the learning curve by learning as much as you can from a good book on the subject that has pictures to illustrate how the techniques are performed.
The only thing I'll add here about spray equipment is my own personal experience. I agree with Howie in that conversion HVLP is the way to go. Beyone that... I would highly recommend going with a gravity gun. They are exceptionally easy to use and very, very forgiving to the inexperienced sprayer.
Just last weekend one of our front office managers painted his daughter's car in our spray booth at work. Prior to last weekend his sole experience spraying any type of paint was with air-brushing, which is very different than spraying paint/finish with spray equipment. I loaned him my best HVLP gravity gun, walked him thru the basics, gave some pointers and suggestions on what to do if he ran into a handful of specific problems. I'd set him up to do a dark blue metallic basecoat/clearcoat paint job on the car and left my cell phone number in case he needed help. He never called. Last monday I talked to him at work and he said that other than two small runs in the clearcoat in a relatively inconspicuous area, all went well and his daughter was very, very happy with the paint job. Not bad at all for someone who had never even touched professional spray equipment before that!
That was not an isolated incident. I've taught guys who knew nothing more about painting than past experience painting bicycle frames with spray cans to spray difficult finishes and paints, like metallic automotive paints, like a total pro with only a few weeks experience with an HVLP gravity gun.
Given the small size of what you are wanting to spray, I really think that an HVLP gravity gun is going to be the easiest thing for you to use.
Regards,
Kevin
Guys, thanks for the responses...I've been watching them all day and thinking about them. The first couple I just kinda gaped. I didn't and still don't understand alot of the terms that you are using...(Conversion, retardant etc) and so I think getting the book and doing some acedemic learning will be a good idea.
From a system perspective, I have seen the Pressure pot type...where all you have is the actual gun in your hand. I understand that it is lighter, easier to get into nooks and crannies. Sounded kinda cool.
While the boxes are small I'll be doing a lot of them each week, and its not the only kinda of work I do. I also design and build custom pieces - tables, armoires, beds, chests etc. So I need to consider the whole range of what I do when evaluating a system. I think that Homestead Finishing has some good info that I haven't really studied yet, I haven't really studied at all at the point. I guess I'm just dreaming of a good finish and hoping that one day that it will just happen like a miracle rather than the frustrating, cussing process it is for me today. :)
Kevin, I envy you deeply. I moved from Portland last year and miss it ALOT. The culture, the community of craftspeople there, the environmental conciousnesses, the access to lots of good wood and good beer. You don't know how lucky you are. I'll be back in Sept. to refill on all of it...Smith Rock here I come.
Anyway, thanks for all the advice and comments...I have much appreciated them.
Regards
Alison
For the larger stuff I can definitely see an advantage to going with a small 2 Quart pressure pot. It really is easier to get into nooks and crannies with that type of set up. Jeff has quite a variety of spray equipment for sale on his website. You might want to check out his book, "Great Wood Finishes" too. It's a very good overview of the entire spectrum of finishing.
I hear you on the whole Portland thing. This is a great place to live and work, although I actually live out in the western suburbs. I've read that we have the most restaurants per capita of any major city in the nation. We also have the most square miles of city park space of any major city in the nation. Not to mention all of the great microbreweries in the region and the award-winning wines crafted in the valley. Have I rubbed it in enough yet? <G>
As for the terms used... You'll quickly find out the difference between turbine and conversion HVLP equipment. The "retarder" referred to is simply a very slow evaporating solvent that keeps the lacquer from flashing off (i.e., skinning over) before the moisture can escape. The only reason that lacquer ever blushes is when moisture becomes trapped inside due to the surface skinning over before the moisture can escape. The moisture eventually escapes. But, not before it messes up the chemistry of the lacquer. The resins coming out of solution, due to the presence of excess moisture, is actually what causes the whitish looking stuff that we call lacquer blush.
Regards,
Kevin
Edited 8/10/2003 7:36:17 PM ET by Kevin
Howie:
Got the Charron book today and want to say thank for the recommendation. Definately a good primer book with lots of good information.
To other would be sprayers I say get this book too. It has lots of good information and is well worth the money.
Thinking thus far: first purchase will be a gravity gun to spray lacquer. Later will add pressure pot and other types of capacities.
Thanks so much for the book recommendations.
Alison
I just started spraying this past month, bought a $100 gravity fed HVLP gun to use with my 3hp compressor. Even though I had read a number of articles I wasn't quite prepared for how fast it moves. There isn't enough time for the novice sprayer to recognize problems and react quickly enough. That said, I did catch on and my work is getting better. Only I was practicing on a tool cabinet for myself and not a piece I was hoping to commission. I also ended up buying the book suggested in the previous post.
I recommend using shellac because it is less toxic and more forgiving. I had the same concerns with blushing since I'm in South Carolina but have experienced no problems with a 2lb cut. With shellac you add more alcohol to temper blushing. I also had an industrial fan blowing at my back toward the open garage door.
You can also get perfect results from a spray can- especially given the small size of your project with no clean-up!
Edited 8/10/2003 4:40:07 PM ET by Joe
HVLP conversion is the way to go. Check out the Asturo 9010/9011 systems at Homestead.
Since you're spraying small items, you need to be able to turn down the pressure to prevent a lot of overspray. A pressure pot is the way to go, 'cause you can move the gun around to different aspects inside a piece.
Deft works good in high humidity and different temp conditions. I live in a high humidity area, and havn't had any blushing problems.
Just remember to shoot light coats, and shoot a 50/50 flash coat on last so you won't have to rub it out.
"I understand that when you spray in high humidity that you get something call blushing? How do I avoid this in a non a/c workshop"
Blushing is CAUSED by solvents evaporating from the finish (on the surface or as it is transferred from the gun) so rapidly that the finish is cooled to a temperature below the dew point of the surrounding air, causing moisture to condense on and into it.
Retarders can help to remove blushing, but are a band-aid solution, as the problem is caused by having too fast evaporating solvents in the lacquer. It is far better to use the right thinner in the first place. You may have to go to an industrial/automotive supplier to get what would work best for your application.
In conditions similar to yours I typically use PPG DTL 105. I never experience blushing when using it.
Jon
Will they sell that kind of thinner at stores like Pep Boys?
I was doing some finishing with a spray can today (I know, I know, don't grimace I was just practicing), it was about 92 degrees and the humidity was (is) 60% and found that drying time was really slow....something I sprayed this morning was tacky this afternoon after around 5hrs...Should I just expect this? When I spray with a hplv and the right thinner/retarder combination will drying time be faster?
"Will they sell that kind of thinner at stores like Pep Boys?"
Alison,
Never been to a "Pep Boys," but I doubt it. I purchase the bulk of my finishing supplies from a local industrial paint supply store. Most locals have similar stores, though usually focused more at automotive refinishers.
These stores stock thinners specifically formulated for specific temperatures and humidities. While often not formulated (recommended?) for wood finishing they perform better than the generic "lacquer thinner" sold at the big box or hardware store when properly matched.
You say that after 5hrs. your spray can finish was still tacky? What type of finish was it? I doubt it could have been a lacquer.
Jon
Retarders can help to remove blushing, but are a band-aid solution, as the problem is caused by having too fast evaporating solvents in the lacquer.
I've talked to the lab guys at Sherwin-Williams about hot solvents, retarders and lacquer. These are the guys who formulate the stuff we spray. They've consistently told me that using hot solvents, like MEK, are not a problem within certain limits. They've also consistently recommend using retarders to deal with blushing.
Regards,
Kevin
Hello Kevin,
Thank you for all the knowledge you contribute to this site.
I've read posts by you regarding your fondness for Acetate / Mek in lieu of lacquer thinner. Can you further explain the difference. I've used lacquer thinner and retarder for over 25 years. It's worked well for me but I'm always looking for a better way. Also where do you buy these products?
How do these products react when stains are added to the mix?
Are they much more harmful then lacquer thinner? More flammable?
Cost of vs lacquer thinner?
Do you know of any down sides.
Thank you
SA
Thank you for all the knowledge you contribute to this site.
Believe me, it's my pleasure. Sharing what I've learned is what motivated me to join Knots and what keeps me here. I remember well how frustrated I was by more experienced "Old Timer" finishers not wanting to teach me anything of real value beyond proper sanding techniques when I was younger. So... sharing what I've learned is a little act of rebellion on my part. <G>
That said... my knowledge is limited in that it all comes from my experience as a professional finisher in production settings. A lot of the stuff that's discussed here, like Shellac, rubbed out finishes and gel stains, is largely outside of my experience because they're not used in production shops, for the most part, and I usually try to defer to someone who knows more about them.
I've read posts by you regarding your fondness for Acetate / Mek in lieu of lacquer thinner. Can you further explain the difference. I've used lacquer thinner and retarder for over 25 years. It's worked well for me but I'm always looking for a better way. Also where do you buy these products?
There are actually a number of different solvents in the Acetate family of solvents. The one that I like to use is PM Acetate. There are other names for it. If anyone would like, I can post the CAS number which doesn't change with the various names.
What I like about using MEK and PM Acetate in lieu of lacquer thinner (even the good lacquer thinners) is that it gives me more control over the lacquer and how it behaves as I apply it.
MEK is a primary solvent for nitrocellulose lacquer. It is partly for this reason that I like it. It dissolves nitro lacquer much more powerfully than lacquer thinner blends, regardless of how hot the blend is. Among other things this means that the little particals of atomized lacquer (from the gun) melt into the existing lacquer surface much more aggressively, as well as changing the surface tension of the particals so that they flatten out much more easily - both of which act to negate orange peel and overspray problems. MEK also flashes off faster than lacquer thinners. This allows me to put on a heavier coat of lacquer without running into problems with sags and runs.
PM Acetate is a reasonably strong solvent for nitro lacquer too. It acts in concert with the MEK to make the lacquer particals flatten and flow out upon contact. But, you're already familiar with retarders and how valuable they are in helping the lacquer to flow out smoothly... so, you know how they work. The main reason that I like PM Acetate specifically is that it is a weak enough retarder that it's use gives me more control over how aggressively the lacquer is retarded. Glycol Ether, by way of comparison, is recommended for a maximum of 1 - 2% reduction in lacquer as a retarder. PM Acetate is recommended for approx. 10% to achieve the same degree of retardation as Glycol Ether. It's simply easier to play with the degree to which the lacquer is retarded when using PM Acetate in my experience. This allows me much more leeway in fine tuning the lacquer to whatever the situation requires - large projects require more retarder than small projects... humid conditions also require more retarder than drying conditions. It's all about me being in control of the lacquer to the maximum extent possible. Glycol Ether requires careful measurement... whereas PM Acetate is weak enough that I usually just add it by eye without any measuring.
How do these products react when stains are added to the mix?
No differently than when reducing with lacquer thinner. Any stain that's compatible with lacquer thinner will be compatible with MEK and PM Acetate.
Are they much more harmful then lacquer thinner? More flammable?
Well... MEK will soak thru your skin readily. It's no worse than Acetone, though. And Acetone (MEK too in some cases) is a common ingredient in lacquer thinner. In fact, Acetone is a member of the Ketone family. MEK is it's closest cousin in that family of solvents. I believe that MEK has a lower flash point than most solvents blends... mostly due to it's not being blended with other solvents that have higher flash points. In general, the same precautions that a reasonable person would take when working with lacquer thinner would be appropriate and sufficient when working with MEK and PM Acetate. Wearing gloves and a respirator are always a very good idea with any of these solvents!
Cost of vs lacquer thinner?
A little bit more expensive. But, more than worth it in my opinion. We've got a purchasing manager at work who does all of the actual buying. So, I'm not able to give you detailed info on the exact price differences. PM Acetate in particular I have no idea what we are paying for it. But, I do know that MEK is slightly more expensive than a good quality lacquer thinner (i.e., not the cheap, useless stuff sold at Home Base). Jon's brief discussion of the various grades of lacquer thinners in this same thread is a good one. I have nothing to add to it.
Do you know of any down sides.
Yes. As Jon mentioned, hot solvents like MEK and Acetone are associated with blushing problems for the very reason he gave. MEK is weaker than Acetone and thus contributes less to the problem of blushing. But, it can still cause blushing. That is the other main reason that I add the PM Acetate retarder.
Using the MEK alone would also likely be problematic on very large , complex projects because it flashes quickly enough that overspray likely would be a problem. I know guys who use only MEK, though. I don't recommend it. But, in dry weather and on small projects it would work well IMO.
Regards,
Kevin
Kevin, can you expand on the risks of MEK and acetone absorption through the skin, and the possible harmful effects that might result? I've heard non-favourable things about both, but I'm not expert enough to comment. Thanks. Slainte. Website
I'll try to remember to do that tomorrow from my work computer where I have access to all of my books and stuff - particularly the relevant MSDS forms.
Regards,
Kevin
Kevin, It's just that I've heard of possible liver or kidney damage(?) and so on through exposure to these chemicals in particular-- absorption through the skin for example-- and if you know something, or can find out something fairly easily and quickly, I'd like to know. Thanks.
And I'm not being my normal jocular, cynical self in asking the question. Once in a while I mean to ask pointed questions-- or give a serious response to a question asked here. Slainte.Website
Well... as far as I can tell from the MSDS sheets on both, the primary risk associated with skin absorbtion is skin irritation, defattening, and dermatitus. I have a more recent MSDS on MEK than I do for Acetone. Neither appears to be associated with progressive or irreversible neurotoxic effects, even at over-exposure levels. However... simultaneous over-exposure to MEK and n-Hexane can enhance ("potentiate") the known irreversible neurotoxic effects of n-Hexane. I don't know for sure, but it might be safe to assume that the same goes for Acetone and n-Hexane.
That's as much as I've been able to glean from the info that I have.
Regards,
Kevin
Thanks, Kevin. I've never been too bothered by the potential risks of skin exposure to things like acetone and MEK, or even lacquer thinner for that matter, although I realise there is always some concern.
However, just last week, or maybe the week before, a friend I respect stated categorically that skin exposure to acetone and MEK in particular can lead to ingestion and permanent damage to internal organs, e.g., liver, kidneys, etc.. I did a little research through MSDS sheets and came up with similar opinions to the ones you found.
Thanks to your response, I'm not going to get too excited about small'ish to minimal skin contact with these chemicals, but I think I'll continue to pull on the gloves whenever practicable as a precaution. Thanks again. Slainte. Website
That seems like a wise choice.
For those who haven't tried them.... I would recommend wearing Nitrile disposable gloves. They're thin enough to give you the tactile feedback of latex examination gloves, yet they will resist solvents far, far longer than latex. I know that the biggest reason why I loathed wearing solvent-resistant gloves when I was younger was because I couldn't feel what I was doing very well. I really do rely on tactile feedback. Nitrile gloves are a great compromise between no gloves and the thick, bulky gloves.
Regards,
Kevin
"I've talked to the lab guys at Sherwin-Williams.......They've consistently told me that using hot solvents, like MEK, are not a problem within certain limits. They've also consistently recommend using retarders to deal with blushing."
Kevin,
I wasn't recommending against the use of MKE at all. Just pointing out that there are commercially available thinners available specifically formulated for high temp/humidity situations. Adding a retarder to a thinner that works best in a cool dry environment doesn't result in the same thing as the one that is sold for use at 110F and a dew point of 75F.
High temp thinners do not have the VOC's in them in the first place that cause the blushing.
Most lacquer thinners sold at hardware stores are similar to what we call "wash thinners." They are cheap, and good to clean out a gun with, but that's about it. Typically they have a lot of acetone which evaporates fast enough at higher temps to cause blushing.
Jon
Well said, Jon. I misunderstood what you were getting at. I stand corrected. :-)
Regards,
Kevin
I will go against the grain here and say that I much prefer my turbine system to a conversion system. I understand that the Kremlin airmix conversion systems are pretty much unbeatable but they cost $3000+. My system which is based on the Accuspray ten gun is vastly more affordable than the Kremlin and I don't think that anything less can outperform it. Other turbine systems are not comparable though, at this time the Accuspray seems to have a definite edge over competing systems. I use a quart cup gun and am very happy with it but Accuspray also makes a gravity feed gun and I agree that it would make a nice system for your application.
Is the use of water based finishes unfeasible in high humidity?
I understand that there are some overall appearance and performance differences between the two but they seem to be products taht are so much healthier for the environment and for me.
Alison
Is the use of water based finishes unfeasible in high humidity?
No, it's not unfeasible. The key to drying/curing water-based finishes is good air movement over the finished product. In a high humidity environment water-based finishes will dry slower. But, I don't see any reason to avoid them just on the basis of working in a high humidity environment.
I understand that there are some overall appearance and performance differences between the two but they seem to be products taht are so much healthier for the environment and for me.
Most commercially available water-based finishes that are marketed as alternatives to solvent-based finishes contain solvents themselves. They just don't have nearly as much solvents as their competetion. In other words, "healthier" is relative. There are water-based finishes out there which require all of the same safety precautions that solvent-based finishes require - respirator, gloves, etc. Never assume that because the label says water-based that the ingredients don't pose any health risks to the user.
Regards,
Kevin
In general the water based finishes tend to be less hazardous to apply. They also tend to dry rather quickly even in relatively humid environments. Thus I would say that they actually may be preferred (all other things being equal) to oil based finishes for application in high humidities. I agree with Kevin though in that you must treat each finish product individually and not assume from generalities. The one thing that may give you some problems is the rather extended time required for a full cure of many of the water based products. Many of the oil based finishes dry at a similar or slower rate than the typical water based alternatives but still complete curing in a considerably shorter time than many of the water based products. In a very humid environment you may need some heat and or power assisted ventilation to keep the cure times within reason. Because the water based products are designed to be compatible with moisture they may give you more dependable results than the typical oil based products in your situation.
Excellent post, Clay.
Just to follow up on this whole drying time/humidity thing for Alison...
When the relative humidity is high, water molecules are saturating the air. This causes drying issues with evaporative solvent (oil) based finishes as much as it does for evaporative water based finishes. When the air is saturated with moisture, there is less room available for evaporating solvents/water to go. That's why air movement is important in speeding up dry times. Heat definitely helps too. But, without good air movement, adding heat isn't as advantageous as it would be otherwise. In most cases it's not a good idea to blow a fan directly on a freshly finished product, though. Too much air too quickly can cause the finish to develop a thick outer skin of drier finish material and the solvents or water still underneath the surface can actually take longer to escape thru the drier surface. Generally 5 to 10 minutes minimum flash time is required before you can safely start getting aggressive about air movement or heat to speed up dry times without shooting yourself in the foot.
Regards,
Kevin
To All:
I looked over alll the posts for Alison's original question and thought I'd add my 2 cents. I started spraying app. 5 yrs. ago with a cheap turbine gun with o.k. results. When I went pro I invested in a good Accuspray 3-stage turbine system with 2qt. pressure pot. I highly reccomned these systems. I spray only water-based finishes; my shop is in a residential area and I don't want the extreme hassles with the regulators over VOC emissions. I have tried the Hydrocote Resisthane product but found to took too many coats to build. I swithed to using Compliant Spray Sytems Enduro lacquer and love it. It builds fast, dries to sand quickly and looks great when rubbed out. CSS also sells the Accuspray system; the downside is they are in Cali..
As to the humidty problem: I spray in an enclosed 10'x16' room in my shop with an intake fan and exhaust fan. Temps. inside with the lights on can get 80 degrees with 65%-70% humidty. I have not had problems with blushing in these environments as long as the fans keep running to move the air around. I recently added a small a/c unit I bought used for $30 and would recommend that to anyone wanting to set up a space to spray water-based; it helps keep the humidty at more acceptable levels.
I highly recommend Andy Charron's book's, Spray Finishing and Water-Based Finishes also. I picked up lots of good info from them.
My suggestions Alison:
Get the books and read any ionformation you can before purchasing. Call company's and ask lots of questions; most all are willing to help, especially if you might buy something.
Be prepared to pratice for few days before you start on real work. Just spray scraps of wood, plywood, etc.
Give the water-based finishes a good look. (My environmental bent come out here) More rules ar ebeing passed all the time regarding VOC limits and air qualtiy so my vote is just start with a product that is already 'healthier' than the standard solvent based products.
Good luck with it.
Joe
Joe:
Just ordered the Charron book...starting to do my studying on what's what. There is certainly alot of information out there and right now it just all seems a muddle to me and very complicated. I'm afraid of making some hideous mistake.
I was reading FWW review of turbine hvlp sprayers under $500, but they ended giving the Wagner the highest rating. Now I thought the Wagner was the same thing that you see in Home Depot for spraying picket fences in a jiffy...but that can't be. ::sigh::
I've run across the following brand names that people seems to favor: DeVilbis (sp?), AccuSpray, Binks and then some Italian sounding names. Ebay seems to have a number of guns/systems for sale too.
I'm going to call Jewitt early next week and chat with him, as well as Accuspray..and anyone else that will talk with me.
I kinda feel that its a bit like picking a mail order bride...all sorts of promises, benefits etc but reality is a little different.
I like the idea of water based finishes alot. Just seems right for how I think and feel about the enviroment.
Cheers Everyone.
Alison,
I purchased the Wagner 2600 turbine HVLP unit as I need something more portable than lugging along a large compressor and conversion gun or spraying high pressure with a smaller compressor for those occasions I'm finishing fixed woodwork in homes. No complaints. Extremely portable, as well.
And no, these aren't the "buzz guns" that you see at HD or similar. These Wagner guns are actually CapSpray guns. If you like, you can pay substantially more for the same gun with the CapSpray name on it.
The gun and turbine perform very nicely for me once I got accustomed to the somewhat different arrangement for varying the width of the spray pattern right at the air cap itself.
A quick Google on this unit will lead you to the lowest current price if you're interested.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Alison,
I too live in the lovely state of FL. Although I am in Daytona, I understand your concern. I am an amateur woodworker and have only finished with Poly to date. A couple of months ago, I spoke with Jeff at Homestead, and he recommended the Asturo Gravity feed HVLP gun (I have a compressor). I just finished a hall table for my wife in Bloodwood, and finally got use my gun. I have just discovered nervana. I did not realize just how great (and really fast) spraying was. Anyhow, a friend of mine who is also a woodworker (and lives in Daytona) has been spraying for a long time, and here is the advice he gave me with lacquer, etc.
1) Buy lacquer and sanding sealer from Sherwin Williams. They sell it in 1 and 5 gallon cans. Get the not glossy type, unless you want really, really glossy.
2) You can buy the thinner there as well, or you local orange box place.
3) Cut the sanding sealer 1-1 with thinner
4) Cut the lacquer 2-1 (2 lacquer) with thinner
5) Spray 2 coats sealer, wait 30 minutes and sand with 400
6) Spray lacquer until you get the finish you want (3 coats is what I ended up with).
7) Wait 2 days and spray with pledge
8) Display with pride
I got lots of advice and none of it was the same as my friends. But I tried it, and got phenominal results. Fear not, it will work out just fine.
- lee -
PS. I just spray outside in the air as the lacquer dries super fast. I had no dust in the finish. Yahooo!
1) Buy lacquer and sanding sealer from Sherwin Williams. They sell it in 1 and 5 gallon cans. Get the not glossy type, unless you want really, really glossy.
I've been using Sherwin Williams wood finishes almost exclusively for the last couple plus years and am very pleased with them. They use a somewhat unconventional designation for the gloss range on their finishes: DRE (Dull Rubbed Effect) which is basically a satin sheen, MRE (Medium Rubbed Effect) which is basically a semi-gloss, and BRE (Bright Rubbed Effect) which is not full gloss but pretty close to it. Inbetween sheens are easily achieved by simply intermixing. For example, I shot a curved reception counter for a local upscale bank today. It's made of rift cut White Oak with an ebony (black) stain (also Sherwin Williams products). To get the sheen required I simply mixed some DRE and MRE catalyzed vinyl conversion varnish in a 50/50 blend.
Regards,
Kevin
Kevin,
What do you think of the Vinyl? Does it hold up any better? My friend said that he ended up with a rubbery surface that he was not pleased with. Maybe it is the humidity here.
I like the cat. vinyl a lot. I have no idea how your friend ended up with a rubbery surface. It sounds like a catalization problem to me. Our year-round average relative humidity here in Portland is right at 50% according to published sources that I've seen. I don't see how higher humidity could interfere with the chemical reaction with this particular product. But, then again... I'm no chemist.
The main claim to fame for the catalyzed vinyl varnish is that it is so highly resistant to common cleaning solutions. I'm not aware of any commercially available varnish/finish which is rated higher for chemical resistance than the cat. vinyl. In relation to precat lacquer, it's harder and more durable. But, less so than the standard Alkyd conversion varnishes or the catalyzed poly finishes. It sprays really, really nice, though. In terms of off-the-gun finishes... it is very comparable to precat or standard lacquer. In fact, I use the same MEK/PM Acetate reduction scheme with the cat. vinyl that I do with all of the various nitro and CAB/acrylic lacquers.
Sherwin Williams actually sells two different catalyzed vinyl conversion varnishes - Super KEMVAR "C" and Super KEMVAR "M". They use different catalysts. It may be that your friend's experience was with the other type of cat. vinyl. I'm using the KEMVAR "M"
Regards,
Kevin.
Many thanks to everyone for their advice and help in this post.
I finally got my gun, pressure pot, drier, new compressor etc and sprayed for the first time yesterday. It was awful ! I came back in and read everyones posts and went back out and fiddled with mixes, pressure etc. and hey presto today is a dream...I never knew finishing could be this easy.
Thank you soooo much everyone. Your input has been invaluable.
Alison
Thanks so much for your encouraging advice. I've been reading the Charron book and evaluting exactely what I need. So far the Accuspray gravity feed looks like the way I'll go.
Unfortunately, I just checked my 4 gal. 2 tank compressor and it only delivers 3.5cfm at 100psi. (max of 125), so it seems like I'll be buying another compressor too. Which I dont think will be a bad idea at all as I was blowing off a piece earlier and had it blowing air for an extended period of time and after about 4 mins there was this jet stream of wet steamy air blowing out...gotta think that can't be good and definately woudl not be good for a finish (I drain tanks about 2x p/day!!).
I have also decided that I'll spray outside. Right now I just don't have the room, or adequate ventilation to safely spay inside, so it was good to hear you mention that you sprayed outside and had good results.
I was suprized to hear you spray with Pledge...doesn't have silicon contaminants in it that will ultimately damage the finish?
Cheers
Alison
I have a drier/filter on my line, but my compressor is about the same size, and no problems with water.
No problems with the pledege either. How do you clean your wooden furniture now? Once the lacquer dries, it handles cleaners just like store bought.
You may still want to check out the Asturo gravity gun too. I really like mine, and Jeff Jewitt recommended it.
Take care, and good luck.
- lee -
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