I am considering leaving my corporate sales job and taking a shot at some sort of woodworking business. It seems to me that cabinetmaking is in demand and would provide the most stable income.
I’ve been working with wood for about 20 years as a hobbyist and have sold about 30 pieces in the past 3 years; mostly jewelry boxes, humidors, tables, etc. I have some limited experience building cabinets.
I currently make a very good low 6 figure salary but have had about all of the negativity and corporate BS that I care to live with. I am vested but cannot draw any income until I turn 57 – I’m 44 now.
2 Questions
- How did some of you guys start? I hope to be able to take on some small jobs while still working to build up my “war chest” so I can leave in a year or so.
- It seems to me that kitchen cabinets and built-in’s offer a large profit margin when comparing material costs and labor (at least in my limited experience). Am I way off base or pretty close?
Thanks in advance for your opinions.
Replies
I think you should learn to love your day job..............
I read sometime back that Chris Becksvoort nets about $25-30 year, and he is one of the best.
And he works 60 hours a week to make that money!
I have very little experience in the commercial cabinetmaking realm, but will relate a bit of what I have seen. After being in the corporate world most of my life, I took a turn and went to work in a high-end cabinet shop to hone my skills and get paid while learning more about my 'hobby'.
The first shop I was in had about 45 bench carpenters (cabinet builders); a majority had had their own shops at one time and eventually had to shut down and go to work for a larger shop. When that shop went belly-up due to poor management, I moved over to a smaller shop with only 10 bench guys; a couple of those guys also had their own shops, but had to supplement by working in the commercial shop.
I, too, plan to begin selling pieces along with continuing to build for my wife and myself. My objective is to make my 'hobby' pay for itself and also provide some supplementary income. I don't want this to be, nor do I intend to try to make it, a full-time job. I'm at a point where I did my time working for the other guy, our house is paid for, my wife wants to continue to work, I'll be drawing a small pension, so I have the opportunity to see how I can do selling handcrafted wood items.
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
I agree, keep your day job, and go slow, part-time, until you see the chance of getting established. It's hard to make a lot of money, but it is possible. A niche market is a must, along with a break and an opportunity.
To answer your questions, I studied wood technology and design for 2 years in college, then opened a business. The business aspect was not taught and so required fast learning.
Have at least three months cash reserves to live on while you're starting. Have a comprehensive business plan, and have it vetted by another small business owner.
Second question, kitchen remodels do offer a large profit margin, but not because the cabinets are built locally by a good cabinetmaker hoping to make a good living, but because they are built in a low wage area either stateside or overseas and are only part of the overall package in a kitchen remodel.
This forum is mostly hobbyists with few professionals. I think you'll find a more accurate set of answers to your questions if you post this query at Breaktime.
I'm in the same situation (sorta) except I'm doing it because I got laid off last year. At 59, I decided that re-inventing myself again wasn't an option so I moved my retirement plans up by a few years. Like you, woodworking has been my hobby for many years and I've made everything from simple cutting boards to full sets of kitchen cabinets. Now that it's a 'real' job, cost and schedule have become very important and that makes it a different world. I'm not making much money, but I'm holding my own so far.
If your experience is limited to jewelry boxes, humidors and tables, you may have a problem jumping right into kitchen cabinets. Basic cabinet construction is on a much larger scale and takes practice to get things square and true. You'll probably mess up quite a bit of expensive wood before you master the techniques. You may also need more (or better) tools than you have now, and a shop large enough to do assembly and storage while you're building.
If I were in your situation, I would make a transition plan to make the move over a period of time (3-5 yrs) and start doing projects for friends, neighbors and family. As your experience (and confidence) grows, you can start working for 'strangers'.
StakeHorse,
The definition of success, is being able to do what you really want and making it your life.
Don't take risk though, keep your job and start working on your dreams one step at a time, until one day, you can do what you want, full time.
I believe custom woodworking is a very small niche market and if you want to make a six figure income from it, you will need to do something very different from the norm. You will have to make real high end pieces, catching the attention of people who live in high places.
Look at someone like Raymond Enkeboll http://www.enkeboll.com/about/index.php who was one of the best master craftsmen in the US and to really expand his business, even he moved away from making custom furniture.
Willie
Custom cabinets are slowing dying, and thats a bad thing. Due to the factories that mass produce cabinets. Im not saying that you cant make a living doing custom cabinets and built-ins, but it requires knowing just as much about business as it does knowing your skill.
As a one man shop your time and size of job are really limited. At first you can probably only handle smaller kitchens. For new construction smaller kitches usually mean lower allowances for your kitchen. Your profit margins wouldnt be able to make what you need to earn for the speed of your operation. New construction with large vast kitchens with maybe 100 lineal ft of cabinets would require bigger shops and probably an employee or two.
It will be hard to compete with the factories for new contruction, its cuthroat as far as pricing. Even many custom shops here outsource parts of their operation.
Remodels generally have the most markup, and many time need the custom aspect.
SO if youre really wanting to start up a business, it will take some time. Youll have get to know contractors and remodelers since they really are the ones that write YOU the check. Youll have to work on deadlines because they wanted the cabinets last week. And the contractors and remodelers have to make a profit as well as you so pricing can be tough. They only have so much to work with on allowances while you still have to bring home the money to live on.
Its not easy to get rich, and its sure as $hit not easy to get rich working in the trades.
If you want to do it, pursue it, but be advised its not easy work, and you wont be bringing home money to start your fires at night.
Part of the problem with woodworking for profit is there are so many who are doing it as either a hobby or underbid jobs until they go broke.
As someone posted, the real money is installing cabinets built somewhere else cheap, not exactly what any of us want to do.
I have chosen my niche market, one I understand well from a lifetime of experience, firearms and I face the same issues on two fronts. Lots of people with six figure incomes dabble in making stuff. They buy state of the art equipment I can't even dream of owning and spend their free time making stuff and selling it to cover the cost of their materials.
One thing that a serious professional has that the hobbiests don't is time, they can complete a job faster. Get known as someone who gets jobs done fast and you will find work.
If your making six figures then you run in a crowd that can afford your services. Start hitting up all the real estate people you know. People buying fixers or new homes often want remodel work done. Prove you can get the job done fast and you may find work.
Oh, and make sure you have lots of equity in your house to carry you for a while...
StakeHorse ,
About 25 years ago after I apprenticed for a few years I started out on a shoestring . I took any job that I could get for a few years , then started to get some closer to real type jobs .Kitchen cabinets , built ins , case work in general can pay well. Repetition on longer runs tends to build profit , short jobs have little flow to them. A lot of starting and stopping . Think about this , as soon as you are self employed you will have zero income guarantee , however you will have new expenses that you don't have now. Such as Insurance , business and state registrations , will you lease or rent a building ? Of course you will need the necessary equipment . So you now will be spending about $25.00 an hour as opposed to earning about $50.00 an hour . Not to mention health insurance , retirement fund ,no paid vacations or paid day's off . But you can come and go as you please . The bottom line is, there is a lot more to being a professional cabinetmaker than just building cabinets . I would recommend you have at least 6 months to a year in reserve fundage to begin from the ground up . Try and do a market survey in your area to see how much demand exists and how much the market will pay per foot for cabinets .Maybe you could get a job part time or in the evenings or weekends to learn from a shop even with no pay . This may give you a chance to see if you are cut out for a career of wood working .
good luck dusty
StakeHorse
I am very appreciative of this and other similar threads of discussion.
I was a pharmaceutical rep for 18 years. I made alot more money than anyone diserves for the amount of work required. I also wished I were dead often. My family didn't care to be around me because I was a grouch all the time. I walked away from it in January.
My goal is to get into fine furniture via cabinetry. I don't beleive that I will ever be able to get rich doing either and probably less so in furniture. however, I have decided that the money I was making was not worth it. We may have to sell our house. But, as my wife says "so what, we're happy."
I am currently working at $13/hour (compared to over $120k last year) but I enjoy going to work and being productive. I have a great deal to rent space in the warehouse I work at and my Boss understands that my goal is to go full into this business and slowly drop hous from him.
I have done a great deal of research and have located some potential grant monies but in the end, I will be coming up with most of the capital myself. My wife works and makes a decent living. We are going to make it somehow. But for 18 years I ignored my dreams for money.
I was introduced to a remodeling contractor and pitched my ideas to him. Now, he gives me a some business to keep me going. He even filled out the paperwork with me to get my EIN and my liscense with the state. He understood because he had gone through the concerns in starting his business.
I am proud to say that last weekend I had one of my cabinets in a remodelers parade of home with my business card on it.
I have 2 neighbors who I am working with on designs for some custom bookcases. And a friend of mine told me that his grandfather built all of the furniture for a local doctor, so maybe the posibilities are there for furniture.
I beleive I have a strength over some startups: I sold for 18 years. I am not afraid to appraoch anybody about this goal.
I guess my thought to you StakeHorse is this: be realistic in your expectations, do as much planning and research as you can and network. I am lucky, I don't care as much about the money, I may make it or not but I have my fall back plan (I can stay at my current job as long as I like).
I still waste alot of stock on mistakes and I am learning, but it's fun. If you are going into it to get rich, don't do it. be honest with yourself and your partner (if you have one). The more realistic and honest you are with yourself the less surprises and failed expectations.
All that said, HELP!!! LOL
Crossroads
PS: I picked this name for my business. It reffers to an old blues song about coming to a crossroad in your life. You can go straight, no surprises or unknowns, everything remains the same; or you can turn down another road full of surprises, potential failures and potentail successes. I chose to turn.
Crossroads,
I am in the same income bracket that you were - $150K or so depending on bonus, sales, etc. I've been selling for years but have enjoyed my work up until the last year or two.
I too, believe that I can be very successful at selling my work. I do not look to get rich or even maintain the level of income that I have enjoyed up to this point.
My wife and I have most of the material things that we wanted in life and now are looking to enjoy and appreciate life and each other more. I am saving cash at a frantic pace to allow myself to leave in the next few years. We would liike to have 3 years of expenses in our pocket before I make the leap. Current production runs of small items are really adding up quickly and I can see the end coming soon.
I wish you the best of luck and success with your venture. The more I explore this new path, the more excited about it I become.
I am going to attend a "How to Build a Successful Woodworking Business" seminar at Marc Adams School of Woodworking in Indy this weekend. I took a "Maloof-Style" Side Table Class there in early Sep and had a blast.
Keep us posted on your progress and I'll do the same.
Brad K.
I did the jump a couple years ago, leaving the crazy professional world because it was driving me nuts. I made over $250K a year; now I'm hoping to make 10% of that next year. If you cannot live on peanuts, learn to tolerate your day job. While I sorely miss the big income, I love the work I do now.
I build custom furniture, and shy away from cabinets for a couple of reasons. First, you need a lot of space, a good panel cutting system, and a spray booth since you'll be spraying a lot of lacquer (I have none of these). Second, I find making plywood boxes boring as all f$*k. Third, you will be competing with HD and Lowes and a zillion other cabinet stores that have low prices because the cabinets are made overseas with dirt cheap labor.
If you can build up a clientele and have a store front shop for furniture, you might gross $100K a year if you are 100% busy (thats 2000 hours at $50 an hour; I don't include the costs for the materials in the gross margin). But it can take years to get to that point. It all depends on your talent for woodworking and your marketing skills.
Good luck. I'd keep the day job but have a plan toward moving to woodworking (i.e., save like hell now, and start building a portfolio of pieces and designs that you can get into a gallery).
Paul
StakeHorse,
A friend of mine runs his own shop and has a sign over his desk that reads: "Being your own boss means you get to choose your own hours. Unfortunately, you have to choose 20 out of the 24."
I don't know where he found this quote, but I think of it often when I picture myself as my own boss.
TomS
Back 30 years ago I worked 8 hrs a day at my day job and 8 hrs at night making cabinets for architects who were building 4 and 5 story office bldgs for let. Did that for about 12 years. Best money came from tenants after they moved in and wanted book shelves, credenzas, office furniture, etc. Architects mostly wanted a kitchenette in each office.
After 12 years, the economy went kapoot (1987) and I went back to just my day job. Good thing I did cause I got in 35 years and got full retirement, severance, and unemployment when my company was bought out in 1999. If I had quit and went to just cabinet making I'd probably be living with my kids right now.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
Wow, you guys are great sounding boards. I appreciate and value all of your advice.
I've been discussing my plans with other professionals here in Lexington, KY and will continue to refine my strategy. At this time I plan to follow your advice and work slowly into a transition from my day job to my new dream.
I picked up a $3,500 built-in job today from a co-worker that had been to the "Parade of Homes" in Louisville, KY.
He wants a unit built with 3 sets of shelves on top of a set of base cabinets about 11' long and 8' tall with elaborate mouldings at the top and shelves set back about 10" from the front of the cabinets. Raised panel doors on the base cabinets and room for a 43" flat screen TV in the center unit.
He will paint the entire unit white so I plan to use poplar for the doors and facings and birch ply for the sides and backs.
Hopefully this will result in more business from his contacts and I plan to take pictures of the installation once finished to show to others.
I believe that I should have less than $1,000 in materials and probably about 30-40 hours labor. Does these figures sound reasonable?
Thanks again to all and I'm sure I'll be asking for more guidance in the future.
One more question - for painted moulding at the top of the unit - hardwood or pine?
StakeHorse,
Let me take a slightly different twist to your basic question. First of all be careful of your motivations. Many of us guys harbor dreams at specific ages but in many cases it turns out that we're motivated more to get away from something rather than moving toward something. So its good to take your time a plan carefully.
Which brings up the second point. What do you bring to the equation? What assets, abilities, tallents do you bring to the table that the market lacks and the customer is hungry for.... Apparently you have sales skills so you also know how to listen to the customer. I can tell you from personal experience that a lot of business is left on the table by contractors. People building homes or offices feel it an impostion to bring up additional needs with their contractor...they just seem so busy, overworked...customers are concerned it'll cause delays in the project. Many customers would gladly talk to someone about additonal cabinets for the bedrooms, basement, garage, etc....and have it in the mortgage payment. Usually, people are moving up in home size and will not have the money for buying the kids bedrooms sets... adding 10-20 thousand to the mortgage would cost about $80-100 per month to the mortgage...
Up here in the Northeast people are putting in new kitchens in the $100, 000-200,000 range...several I know have replaced cabinets/countertops only at around $35,000. An architect said last week that homes are now in the $250-$350 per square foot range now....holy smokes. Anyhow, the point is, what do you want to bring to the equation...
Edited 9/11/2004 7:16 am ET by BG
I did a similar thing recently. I had worked 18 years as an estimator and field engineer in the highway construction industry. Long hours (100 or more hours a week), and eventually working away from my family, pushed me to make a change. I took a job with a large furniture sales company repairing and refinishing furniture. Full benefits, retirement, etc. with about 20 hours a week. That gives me time to pursue my own endeavors. I allocate 40 to 60 hours a week on my own business, and have been fortunate to stay busy. Most of my clients are repeat or referral, so I have no advertising expenses at this time. I mostly build custom furniture, but will tackle the occasional cabinet job. I have, however, done "whatever it takes" when times were slow. Small remodel jobs, flooring, etc. In fact, I got my builder's licence to avoid a few potential legal issues (mainly to do with contract dollar value vs. lien rights) here in Michigan.
During my last three years in the construction industry, I started purchasing the tools that I would eventually need but did not have. I had all the "basics", but specialty tools, clamps (never enough clamps), lumber, and allocating money to reconfigure my garage to suit my new business were the things I focused on.
You mentioned your material vs. bid costs. I track all of my costs, estimated and actual. Along with that I calculate the ratio of contract price to material cost. After enough jobs, you can begin to see a trend in similar projects. Construction of new furniture, for me, ranges from 3.0 to 5.0, and you're at 3.5. My refinishing ratio numbers range much higher, from 10.0 to 30.0, but those jobs are labor intensive. The key is to know ALL of your costs: rent; utilities; insurance; taxes; material; shop supplies; along with allocating money for tool replacement. Bottom line, don't sell yourself short.
Good luck!
Mike
"He wants a unit built with 3 sets of shelves on top of a set of base cabinets about 11' long and 8' tall with elaborate mouldings at the top and shelves set back about 10" from the front of the cabinets. Raised panel doors on the base cabinets and room for a 43" flat screen TV in the center unit.......and probably about 30-40 hours labor."
Ummm...I don't think 30-40 is accurate. Let's figure 6 at least to pick up material and to deliver the finished product. Who's going to install it? It will be in multiple pieces, so there's another 5 hours. What about priming it? The minimum you should do is prime the project before you deliver. Edgebanding ply is slow also unless you have an edge sander and edgebanding maching....then there's the RP doors that you might make fast with a shaper and power feed...
Your estimate sounds low to me. If you are throwing the guy a bone to get the job, make sure you tell him & have him tell others what the fair market value is, so the value of your work (present and future) is not diminished. Most people getting a good deal will be understanding and willing to help you out building your business. Your labor estimate sounds real light, without seeing plans, even for the best equipped shop. Are you allowing for unexpected expenses, incidents? Will the client pay for extras that you did not take into account? Have you figured the installation expense? materials? sales tax you have to pay on materials? will he help you delive & install? Will your existing business relationship be damaged if something goes awry?
It takes a while to develop your pricing structure, which inevitably comes from trial and error. If you are happy with the dollar figure and willing to complete the job for the amount, by all means do it. Remember, don't get discouraged when the job takes you longer to complete than your estimate, and don't get distracted by other activities that will push out your delivery date. Set a reasonable delivery date taking into account that you have a full time primary job and this is secondary to that at the moment until you are ready to do it full time.
Best of luck in your new adventure.
P.S. please forgive any spelling errors. my spel chek sin't working.
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