Replies

1. 
   uncommontree | Sep 16, 2002 06:16am | #1

   Jean.

   Can you post some pic's.? Hard Maple is mostly even in color Light brown almost yellow with darker grain pattern in the orange range. Soft Maple will have much more color in it , more pronounced reds and browns. I can tell by looking at it even feeling it, Hard Maple feels smoother becous it is harder. Much faster to point than to discribe. Hope this helps. Rick...............

2. 
   JeffKurtz | Sep 16, 2002 07:14am | #2

   Jean,

   ADESIGNS is correct.  If you take a small screw driver, you should be able to push it into the soft maple without much force.  With the hard maple you'll have to pound it in.  The hard maple is much heavier and usually has more interesting grain patterns; although soft maple sometime exhibits a mild "tiger stripe" effect and very pronounced cross graining on the edges.

   In many parts of the country, soft maple, like white birch, will have worm track in it: dark brown lines where a worm bored through the tree which repaired itself by filling the holes with inner bark.  (Twenty years ago this was considered a defect, but it's now allowable to select and better lumber.  We used to sell all such lumber to a nearby mill that turned it into paint sticks!!!)

   For purposes of finishing, the species should make little difference.  I think both are quite lovely.

   Jeff

1. 
   Hempstalk | Sep 17, 2002 02:53am | #6

   Jeff.  I've got to disagree with you on your point of soft maple or Bigleaf Maple exhibiting a mild tiger stripe effect.  This is a local wood for me and I've had thousands of board feet cut for use as flooring, furniture, and musical instruments.  This wood shows unbeliveable figure and in some cases there are patterens of quilt, tiger stripe and curl comparable to any figured wood I've laid my eyes on.  It also seems to be the choice of wood for the finest musical instruments and commands extememly high prices.  Up to $200 US for a quilted top.  Perhaps were talking about two different maples.

1. 
   JeffKurtz | Sep 17, 2002 03:09am | #7

   Mr. Stalk,

   From what part of the country do you hail?  Here, in Upper Michigan, what we call soft maple is more properly called red maple.  I think we're talking about different species.  I've sawed tens of thousands of feet of what we call soft up here and seldom saw any figure.

   I recall sawing about 5,000 ft. of the stuff that was growing on some islands in the river.  Some of it had to be split in two in order to cut on a 60" head saw.  The heart wood was the most beautiful shade of pink you can imagine.

   Jeff

1. 
   Hempstalk | Sep 17, 2002 05:06am | #11

   Jeff I live in Victoria, British Columbia.  Located on Vancouver Island on the west coast.  Here were refer to our local maple as Bigleaf Maple (Acer macrophyllum).  It's the largest of the Maples in Canada.  They grow to around 36 meters.  Found mostly in the southwest corner of British Columbia at low to mid elevation.  I won't say that finding quilt Maple is easy.  Probably one in a hundred.  That's a guess but finding figure of other sorts is very common.  Tiger stripe and huge curl is pretty easy to find.  It sells for around $6 to $15 dollars a board foot depending on the intensity of the figure and how clean and consistent the color is.  You can get stained maple with a fair amount of figure here and there for around $3.50 to $5 dollars.  Very nice wood to use not so nice to tame the flame.

1. 
   JeffKurtz | Sep 17, 2002 06:19am | #12

   Hempstalk,

   Sounds beautiful! Definitely not the same tree we have here.

   Jeff

2. 
   Hempstalk | Sep 17, 2002 06:35am | #13

   Sorry I know this thread is going way off the original topic but Jeff if your at all interested in seeing some of this fantastic Maple look at the sight heatleyguitars.com.  It my brothers sight.  He makes some of the finest handmade guitars around.  But then I'm a little bias.  You decide.

3. 
   JeffKurtz | Sep 19, 2002 01:49am | #14

   Thanks.  Both the guitars and the wood are beautiful.

   Jeff

4. 
   Adrian | Sep 20, 2002 04:25am | #15

   The soft maple we buy in here....eastern Canada....is very typically highly figured, with tiger and some quilting, but not to the same degree as what I've seen of bigleaf maple. Colour isn't noticeably different from what we can buy as 'regular' hard maple, but a little lighter than what is sold as sap maple. If the soft maple is noticeably softer, I haven't noticed it. I've never been able to figure out why it's half the price of hard maple. cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

2. 
   observer | Sep 17, 2002 04:46am | #10

   I agree, I've not seen figure in hard maple to compare with Bigleaf (Acer macrophylum).

3. 
   StanleyNiemiec | Sep 20, 2002 08:45am | #16

   Per USDA Forest Service nomenclature there are three catagories of Maple in the US:

   Hard maple including Black (Acer nigrum) and Sugar (A. saccharum)

   Oregon maple aka Bigleaf maple (A. macrophyllum)

   Soft maple including Red (A. rubrum) and Silver (A. saccharinum).

   Density (@12%MC) of the various species is as follows:

   Bigleaf  --  0.48

   Black  --  0.57

   Red  --  0.54

   Silver  --  0.47

   Sugar  --  0.63

   As there is considerable density variation within species, any indentation test might provide a questionable conclusion.

1. 
   jonsherryl | Sep 20, 2002 04:19pm | #17

   Stanley, I know you live out there in Bigfoot country, but aren't you being a bit "provincial" in segregating bigleaf maple as a third category? The FPL recognizes only two categories of maple; "soft" and "hard"...There does seem to be some interest in the industry to separated red maple form the soft maples (because of its greater density) and recognize it as a third "intermediate"category, but I'm not sure this has been formally accepted yet. Bigleaf, on the other hand, while certainly one of the nicest of the "soft" maples (primarily because of its propensity to develop special figures) is still a SOFT maple...and it physically belongs in that category, since its specific gravity of 0.44 (calculated via the green volume, ovendry weight method) is identical to that of the softer eastern soft maple, silver maple.

   Also, with respect to special figure in the various maples, these unusual figures seem to be more related to growing conditions than to genetic differences between the various species. For example, birds-eye is more common in trees that have experienced stress, by growing in dense stands and/or near the northern extreme of the species range. The western bigleaf grows in mountainous country where elevation introduces stress and, as would be expected, this species is noted for producing a high proportion of stock with special figure...But special figure can be found in all species of maples and in many other species as well. It certainly is not a diagnostically reliable feature in wood identification.

1. 
   StanleyNiemiec | Sep 21, 2002 03:27am | #18

   Jon:

   My source for the three catagories of maple is the Wood Handbook (USDA Forest Service) specifically Table 5-3 - Nomenclature for some types of hardwood lumber.  I used the same text for density values.

   Quoting from my favorite reference for western hardwoods  (Hardwoods of the Pacific Northwest; Niemiec, et. al., OSU College of Forestry Research Contribution #8):

   Bigleaf maple usually grows at low to middle elevations (near sea level to 3000 ft) in the central part of its range.  In southern California, it may be found from 3000 to 7000 ft; at the northern end of its range it seldom occurs above 1000 ft in elevation. (p14)

   I guess that means you're a Californian!

2. 
   jonsherryl | Sep 21, 2002 06:49pm | #19

   Actually Stanley, I am a Californian in the sense that I was born in LA, but I grew up in Michigan.

   ...Anyway, it might help other people following this thread to explain why our density stats differ. I always quote densities based on the method of calculation which uses the wood's green volume and its ovendry weight. On the other hand, you (probably just to be ornery) are quoting stats based on the wood's volume at 12% moisture content. Since, at this moisture content, the wood has already experienced over half of its shrinkage, the resulting specific gravity figures tend to read several points higher. There are pros and cons to using each of these methods, but I prefer the "green" approach, because the data is available on a broader range of species. Also, the test can be conducted with greater precision, because "wet is wet", so a saturated sample gives a truer volume reading than trying to catch the wood at 12% MC, which only approximates the wood's air dried condition. Frankly neither of these approaches makes a whole lot of sense in context with other sectors of science...in that a substance's specific gravity should be based on its pure form. In the case of wood, its "pure form" or purest state would be when it is ovendry, i.e., uncontaminated with water...but unfortunately, these data are seldom quoted in the literature. It is indeed an imperfect world.

   Now, as for maple nomenclature, if you will look on page 1-7 of the same FPL WOOD Handbook #113 (the latest edition), you'll notice that the maples are divided into only two categories; "hard" and "soft", and bigleaf maple (Acer macrophyllum) is listed as a SOFT maple. The nomenclature page (5-5, in the latest edition) is offered simply to help yokels figure out the precise species when all they have to go on is a misused common name like "Origun maple." 

3. 
   RW | Sep 17, 2002 12:48am | #3

   If you had them built by a cabinet shop, assuming sugar maple is probably safe. The best gauge (as stated) is an even blonde color. I don't quite agree with the screwdriver test. I had a silver maple cut into about 800 bd ft of usable lumber and its pretty darn hard. And heavy. But there's no comparison colorwise. This stuff is full of streaks of brown and grey and yellow. With a little practice, bookmatched tabletops do come out looking pretty funky.

4. 
   jonsherryl | Sep 17, 2002 01:55am | #4

   Jean, there are some heartwood color differences in the maples, but it's not a sure clue...especially if the stock has been selected for "white" (sapwood) color. The better clue is density. There are two hard maples; sugar maple with an average specific gravity of  0.56 and black maple which averages about 0.52. Red maple, which historically has been considered a "soft" maple has a specific gravity of 0.49, while all the other soft maples average 0.44 or less...So, with the exception of red maple, which tends to have a grayish cast to the heartwood, density usually provides the best clue...but it helps to have samples of both on hand to judge the difference.

   There is also a chemical test that can be used to separate sugar maple from red maple. As I recall, a solution of FERROUS SULFATE turns red maple blue, while it turns sugar maple green...but I haven't done this in years, so if you want to try it, let me know and I'll dig out the formula.

   Also, if you have a 10X hand lens the end grain anatomy of hard maple differs from the soft maples in that hard maple has rays of two distinct widths, while the rays in the soft maples are more uniform in width. Hope this helps. 

   
   

   ---

   Edited 9/16/2002 8:27:30 PM ET by Jon Arno

1. 
   pgwill | Sep 17, 2002 02:18am | #5

   I am interested in the "ferrous sulfite-??" test that you describe. Could you please suggest where I can find a reference for this. I am an organic chemist and consequently I have access to a pretty good collection of reference material. Would be willing to do some searching for this information if you can give me some suggestions about where to start looking. I will gladly post any relevant info that I find about this. Thanks.

1. 
   SgianDubh | Sep 17, 2002 03:18am | #8

   There was a quite big discussion on this topic in the old WebX forum a couple of years back, but the topic seems to have got lost in the change to Prospero. I'll do another search and see if there's still a link, but I wouldn't hold your breathe. Anyway,  ferrous sulphate reacts with tannin in oak to produce shades of blue all the way from pale to a strong RAF blue. In hard maple and european sycamore it is also used as a staining agent to produce harewood or greywood-- I don't think we ever established exactly what it was reacting with in the maple/sycamore, but neither are renowned for their high tannin content. Anyway, the result is as below in a fairly strong solution, e.g., about 2.5 teaspoons in an Imperial pint. Slainte.

   View Image PS. Got lucky, here's a link to an old disussion. Third edit. Nah the link I put in seems to be no good so I've removed it. Type in "ferrous sulphate, harewood" for more leads using the advanced search facility here. Specify from 'the beginning of time' to about one year ago and you should come up with something.

   Website

   Edited 9/16/2002 8:37:43 PM ET by Sgian Dubh

2. 
   jonsherryl | Sep 17, 2002 03:19am | #9

   Brill, I just checked my reference and the chemical solution is ferrous sulfate.  All you have to do is moisten the wood with this water based solution and wait. As the solution dries, the sugar maple will take on a greenish cast while the red maple turns bluish black. This test is briefly mentioned on page 604 of Textbook of Wood Technology, by Panshin and De Zeeuw, McGraw Hill- Fourth Edition, 1980.

   I'd be very interested in any info you can dig up on exactly what chemical reaction occurs to cause this pigmentation, but it does seem to work.

   Edited 9/16/2002 8:24:43 PM ET by Jon Arno

1. 
   pgwill | Sep 25, 2002 06:04pm | #20

   OK, Here's the original reference - it's in German. I haven't had a chance to look at the actual article yet. I've read enough scientific papers in my real profession to express my opionion that the abstract does not convince me that this test is either fool proof or trivial. Anyway, here's the original reference and the abstract:

   Reference:

   Differentiation between hard maple, soft maple and yellow birch wood by using color indicators. Schulte, M. Inst. Holzphys. Mech. Technol. Holzes, BFH, Hamburg, Germany. Holz als Roh- und Werkstoff (1993), 51(6), 422. CODEN: HOZWAS ISSN: 0018-3768. Journal written in German.

   Abstract:

   Hard maple and yellow birch woods showed no differentiation with the investigated reagents. However, an identification of soft maple by the use of FeSO4 was possible, but this should be tested in actual practice.

1. 
   jonsherryl | Sep 25, 2002 06:43pm | #21

   Brill, thanks for digging out this German reference. I know from personal experience that the ferrous sulfate test works in separating sugar maple from red maple, but I don't know if it works with other species of maples.

   Being as you have some backgound in organic chemistry, what's your best judgement on the chemistry (reaction) involved here? What could the ferrous sulfate be combining with that would cause the formation of pigments? Maple is extremely low in tannin content (I think trace amounts are found in the bark, but it is virtually abscent in the wood tissue.) Is it reacting with some other acid or possibly a sugar?

2. 
   pgwill | Sep 25, 2002 10:20pm | #22

   Jon,

   Thanks for the quick reply. I have a couple of comments. First of all in your previous post you mentioned that the ferrous sulfate test was mentioned in a 1983 edition textbook so the reference that I posted cannot possibly be the orignial source of this color test. I apologize for implying this too hastily. However, if and when I get my hands on the German/1993 reference that I mentioned, I suspect that it will have some footnotes to prior work. I'll try to follow-up on this.

   As for the chemical reaction of the actual components of the wood with ferrous sulfate (FeSO4), i.e. iron(II), I can't really say until I find some more info. It is definitely certain that there is some readily reducible component in the soft maple that is not present to the same extent in the hard maple. (Does the test work equally well on the heartwood and the sapwood of both species?) My guess is that this is likely to be a quinone or perhaps more likely as you've already suggested it is a "reducing sugar", i.e. an aldose of some sort, in the soft maple that is not present in the hard maple. You are much more of an expert on the differences in the actrual species of wood than I, so perhaps you can e-mail me wirh some specific suggestion about where to start to look for this info.

   As for the iron color test itself, the oxidation/reduction of iron(II)/iron(III) has been used extensively as a classification test for screening for the presence or absence of certain funtional groups in organic compounds. Guaranteed that if you've ever taken the second semester lab portion of any standard organic chemistry course, you would have done this test at least once and perhaps several times.

   In aqueous solution the iron(II) is green and iron(III) is yellow. Hence, the iron(II) salt that you start with in this test does not react and retains its green color when applied to hard maple but it gets oxidized to iron(III) by the soft maple. The blue/black/brown color that you see is either due to the precipatate of ferric hydroxide or alternatively to the formation of colored complexes between the ferric ion and various phenols in the wood. Note also that phenols are the reduction products of quinones so this is wy I suggested that this oxidation/reduction reactions taking place in the soft maple are iron(II) -> iron (III)/quinone -> phenol followed by the formation of a colored complex between the phenol and iron(III).

   This might be a nice little research project for some undergraduate to try to isolate and identify what exactly is the colored complex formed in the soft maple if this hasn't already been done.

   Would be happy to keep in touch with you via e-mail about this or I can post more specific info when I get it if anyone else is interested.

   Hope that this makes sense.

   Edited 9/25/2002 9:16:03 PM ET by brill

3. 
   jonsherryl | Sep 26, 2002 04:23am | #23

   Brill, There is a Forest Products Laboratory technical report; Extractives in Eastern Hardwoods, FPL #18, 1979, that discusses the chemistry of the maples. I'm barely able to follow the basics of your explanation of the probable reactions. I would have suspected the involvement of an acid, since iron reacts with acids to produce mineral salts that are pigments...But then, the only thing I recall from college about organic chemistry is that the guys in my dorm who were majoring in it were the ones that kept their lights on until 3:00AM during exam week. I was a Bus. Ad. major (with a strong minor in Co-ed Relations.)

   My only understanding of the properties of quinones is that they are carbon-ring molecules (hydrocarbons?) and they often show up in clinical studies as serious allergens. Given your chemistry background, hopefully the above report will suggest what it might be in the maples that reacts with ferrous sulfate.   

5. 
   user-135888 | Sep 26, 2002 06:44am | #24

   Hey

   Some guy at a lumber yard showed me pacific maple, Said it was inexpensive and a good substute for alder.

   ???

   john