I currently have a stock Delta 50-665, 1 1/2 HP two stage, barrel style dust collector mounted on a 55 gal drum. It works well except for two things: the unit is quite heavy and has to be lifted off the 55 gal drum for dumping and the “bag” that collects the dust is porous enough that a lot of fine dust escapes back into the shop, especially when it is first turned on.
What would be the most cost effective ways to mitigate these two problems? I have looked at the Delta cyclone separator stand kit 50-207 as one way to address the barrell issue, but seek other ideas before I move forward.
Replies
Bill,
Checkout Bill Pentz site for some ideas. You will find a lot of information on dust collection in general:
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm
And some ideas and links for converting your felt bag to a pleated cannister:
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/DCConversion.cfm
I am sure there are other sources out there.
You certainly want to minimize the lifting.
Don
Yes, you want to minimize the lifting, but I am never impressed with anyone who has the "only" way to do something.
Bill appears to have sold out to the "only" dust collection system there is, and that makes his views suspect in my opinion.
Better to get unbiased information, or at least other information, in my opinion.
I would investigate Penn State Industries, if I were you. (And I was.)
Sorry I don't follow logic here.Don
Neither do I.BB
Hi Bill
I think you'd have to build a frame for your DC, then replace the barrel with a plastic bag. There are heavy plastic bags available from Penn State or Wynn Environmental which might possibly fit.
Could you build a frame to hold your DC so the barrel can be easily moved? You would also have to figure out some sort of "sleeve" between the DC and the barrel.
Lose the upper dust bag and get a pleated cannister filter (e.g. Dust Dog). Greatest thing since sliced bread. - lol
Put a small block & tackle on a hook in ceiling with a rope & hook for the DC unit and hoist away as needed. Tie it off while you're taking care of dust bag. I second the filter recommendation.
Bill,
I have the same Model DC with the same problem. My solution was to build a plywood box ( 30 x 30 x 48 H, to replace the 55g. barrel) with a door on one side ( sealed with weather striping). Inside the box is another plywood box to collect the dust/shavings. The inner box is easy to remove / dump. I don't use plastic bags, but you could if like.
- D. A. Roberts
I have seen a similar design in one of the DWW small shop booklets. I do have a question though, why did you make it 30"x30"? I seems as though 24"square would do it.
Hello Bill,
Why 30 x 30...... If I remember correctly, my 55 g. Drum was 30" in diameter, and so I built a 30 x 30 box. You could reduce it to 24", however you'll need to increase the size of the filter bag. I purchased an after market bag from American Fabric Filter (AFF) to replace my 30-micron filter bag. The new filter is 30" x 96" tall. Why so big ? After doing some research I found most DC filter are too small for there rated CFM. AFF confirmed this for me. The increased volume of air moving through the system is impressive a full 1200 cfm. If you do nothing more to your drum-top DC, I would increase the bag size.
- Don Roberts
PS - I also found I had to keep all three of my blast gates open to prevent the motor from stalling. I have short runs of 6" pipe reduced to 4" only at the machines. You need to supply the full rating of CFM into the DC as well as out, or you'll stall the motor.
The motor has a heavier load with all the gate open than it does with them shut.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
How can the motor/fan have a heavier load with all the gates open then it does with them shut...... ? Perhaps I didn't explain it well. I have a DC with a rating of 1250 cfm. I'm running a TOTAL of fourteen-feet of 6" flex pipe to three machines. If I close any one of the three gates the flex pipe starts to deform (collapse). The DC is starving for air, hence the motor/fan is stalling. Stalling your DC is what creates a "heavier load". If you don't understand how a dust collection system works you might want to read what Bill Pentz has posted on his web site. Informative reading for all. http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm
If there is no air to move the motor has less work to do. Maximum load on the motor is with all gates open. Simple physics.
If you want to demonstrate it to yourself, stick an ammeter on your motor and try it both ways.
Pulling a vacuum and collapsing the duct is in no way shape or form the same as stalling the motor.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
I once accidentally slammed shut a blast gate. It was the only open gate. The load on the motor increased dramatically and the breaker popped saving my motor.
You would have a hard time convincing a physicist of that.
Of what? That my breaker popped when I slammed closed the blast gate?
Sorry about the delay. My cable is working sporadically. I should have indicated that the breaker would not have tripped because the blast gate was closed as this would cause less current to be drawn.
dgreen,
It's obvious you don't understand what is being discussed here. Your right about Simple physics though. "Stalling" a motor/fan in a dust collection / air handling system refers to limiting the flow of air/cfm's into or out of the Motor/Fan. Not a stalled (over-loaded) MOTOR. Take a common 200cfm shop-vac for example. Turn it on, put your hand partly over the intake hose. The shop-vac is now maybe pulling 100 cfm. This is "Stalling" the Motor/Fan, limiting the air flow/cfm's into and out of the system. Now place your whole hand over the end hose. The shop-vac motor/fan is now "Stalled". This dose not mean the motor has stopped running or spinning the fan. It means the air flow/cfm's have "stalled" (no flow Joe). Your Filter Bag(s) or Cartridge can also "stall" the motor/fan in a DC system. As when there caked with shavings /dust limiting out-flow of air/cfm's. A balanced air system is what we strive for in dust collection. Air flow being equal in and out of the system, reduce one and you reduce the other.
And about "the motor having a heavier load with all the gates open than it does with them shut "....? when you put your hand over the end your shop-vac hose .... what happens ? "If there is no air to move the motor has less work to do. Maximum load on the motor is with all gates open. Simple physics" OK.... still have your hand on the end of your shop-vac hose..... good ! keep it there a little longer and see what happens. Simple physics.
Dgreen is exactly correct. Motor/pump physics is irrefutable. The DC is pulling more amps at full load (all blast gages open) than it is with them all closed. This is true of all pumps. Think of it this way, Is your car using more gas when it's climbing a hill or when it's sitting in park with the engine running at the same RPM?
"This is true of all pumps"
Not true of all pumps. The piston pump, for instance, will come to a complete stop if exhaust is shut down. Oops, I think you were referring to the intake. Sorry about that.
Edited 4/16/2009 12:33 am ET by Tinkerer3
Ok guys....
Once again it's obvious you don't understand what was being discussed.... dust collection. Motor/Fan Stalling has Nothing to do with STALLING of the MOTOR or HEAVY LOAD or AMPS. STALLING AIR MOVEMENT (cfm's) When you close down blast gates in a dust collection system limiting the intake of air below the Fan's (belt drive system) or MOTOR/FAN's (direct drive system) rated CFM's your STALLING the AIR FLOW through the collection system. This is referred to as "Stalling the Fan" (if you have a belt drive system) or "Stalling the Motor/Fan" (direct dive system). Nothing what-so-ever to do with stalling of a motor, heavy motor loads or amps. If you don't understand what's being discussed, ask a question. Don't run the discussion off into the weeds.
Edited 4/16/2009 12:43 pm ET by Woodridge
Yes, that's exactly what we are (or at least were) talking about. Stalling the airflow. Stalling the airflow decreases the load on the fan. Why? Because of the reduction in static pressure at the inlet. Lower pressure means a decrease in the mass of air to move around, and likewise a decrease in viscosity. Both of those reduce the amount of work performed by the motor.
This analysis relies on the fact that a DC blower is a centrifugal pump. Other kinds of pumps (e.g., a positive displacement pump) can behave differently.
-Steve
"Motor/fan stalling has nothing to do with stalling of the motor"
I guess the problem we have with communication is that we are using different meanings of terms. To me, when two of the three significant words being used are identical, I would assume the term is not only related but identical. With the fan connected to the motor directly or via belt or other means, I deduct that the two terms are essentially identical.
From what you say, I gather that "motor/fan" means the same as air movement. Am I right? That would change the tenor of our discussion immeasurably.
Should that read " With the car in drive with full gas but not moving" now that would be a greater load than driving up hill!
When you put your hand over the end of the hose and stall the airflow, the audible pitch of the motor goes UP. That is, the motor turns FASTER when the airflow is stalled.
Think about what that means in terms of actual load (i.e., power consumed) at the motor.
-Steve
Sorry, but dgreen is spot on. You may not understand the physics but it is easy to demonstrate with either a squirrel cage fan or a water pump. If you have a limited power motor when you stop the air flow by limiting the air flow or water flow you can hear the motor speed up. And as dgreen suggested you can test it with an ammeter. Stop the flow either on the intake or the output side: it makes no difference. One word of caution though, If the motor is cooled by the air or water it conducts, it can be burned out if the air or water is shut clear down. This is not the same as stalling. This is more like running your car without coolant in the radiator/engine.
I got the Grizzly separator. All the heavy chips and dust collect in the trash can. Easy to empty and saves on emptying the collector bag considerably. But you need to empty the trash barrel frequently. At about 1/3 full or it looses the cyclone properties and more dust goes to the dust bag. It's definitely worth the small investment.
http://grizzly.com/products/30-Gallon-Dust-Collection-2-Stage-Cyclone-Separator/G3376
I don't think adding a cyclone separator to a Drum-Top DC would be too effective. I could be wrong though. A Drum-top DC has it's motor/fan sitting on-top of a 55-gallon cyclone-separator-drum. Trash can cyclone-separators work well but as dynamwebz pointed out you need to empty the trash barrel frequently. At about 1/3 full or it looses the cyclone properties. Hence BillMiltner <!----><!----> original posting. Are we chasing our tail here ?
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