Ok, my first post! Hopefully this is in the right area and whatnot.
I’m looking to build a low table, with a top 10′ long, 22″ wide. I want the top to look beefy, make it look about 3 inches thick. Thing is, I don’t want to expose any endgrain on 3 sides (it’s going to be against a wall). I’m going for a contemporary look. I want to use solid oak or ash.
Any ideas on joinery that would make for solid, seamless joints (with continuous grain) but that would still allow for movement?
Thanks guys!
Replies
Wow! If you want no end grain showing, the only thing I know to do is return the ends of the top downwards. IE: Miter the top edge, "folding it" toward the floor. For strength, use a blind splined miter joint. Now the end piece moves at the same rate as the top width. and you should be able to glue the entire joint.
Any other ideas?
Greg
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Exo 35:30-35
PS:
OK I missed the "seamless joint" oxymoron. If the 45° miter line is obtrusive to you, after doing this joint, I'd add a strip of veneer across the front edge to conceal the joint line. The thin edge of veneer should be virtually invisible if the veneer is the same material as the top.
Or, add a decorative design element to conceal the joint line.
Edited 3/25/2009 12:54 pm by Cincinnati
Sounds like a good idea... of course I'm open to "seams", I just want to make it look like one, huge slab of wood that for some reason has no endgrain.So what you're saying is that the grain on the sides would be vertical (ie. in line with the top face)? If so, would you do the same for the front edge?
No. I would Let the long grain show. If you do attempt to return the front and the perpendicular ends, you have a double angle with the return on the end grain. That joint with the front edge may open up with the expansion of the end. If you are opposed to the long grain showing, veneer a thin sheet on the front edge.Greg
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Exo 35:30-35<!---->
"I just want to make it look like one, huge slab of wood that for some reason has no endgrain."
FWIW, that is an oxymoron. If no end grain is showing, it will never look like one huge slab of wood. It'll look like a glue-up. Not saying there's anything wrong with that, just . . . .
That said, add one vote for torsion box & veneer or, in the alternative, if you want to stay away from veneer, one vote for making it like a parson's table -- a solid 1"-thick top, beveled all sides, with aprons beveled to fit the top and each other, with the end apron pieces having the grain oriented running in the short direction. (Lots of 45° cuts and very careful attention to fit and grain patterns.) Personally, I'd do it this way, but only because I'm no fan of veneer for heavy-use pieces -- it'll always have problems at the corners due to bumps, etc.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Hmmm; I think you may be onto something here. Correct me if I'm wrong- what you're describing is like setting a solid top into a solid frame with 45deg angles?Tell me what you guys think of the attached image. It's a view from the rear. I would glue the the front of the slab into that front rabbet, and it would float freely on top of the rear piece. The sides would be held close to the endgrain of the slab using sliding bolts (or something similar.
Not exactly what I was trying to describe, but it could work. What I was describing was to simply join the aprons to the top (and each other) with a 45° miter.
Here's a lame ASCII-art version of what I'm describing, in elevation view. I've done this, as I implied, to make parson's tables. I used epoxy and biscuits/splines to reinforce the joints. It's a pain to do, since the angles force you to to be extremely accurate, but it ends up looking pretty nice.
______________|| top| ____________| || | ^ leg
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
The following may sound a bit harsh, but I think you need some straight talk.For some reason you've got the notion to build a top out of solid wood that will look like a veneered piece. You probably don't care, but frankly I think that's nuts. Nevertheless... structurally, the solid top set into the mitered frame with sliding attachments will probably work... that is, it will stay together and not split. But it will look like a slab of wood set into a frame. It will not look like a big honkin slab that just happens to not have end grain.
And hence the reason that I'm asking for suggestions...?
What do you recommend?I'm not looking for criticism in the end product; if that's what a client wants, that's what he wants; I'll build it out of Styrofoam if he wants me to. What I'm looking for is ideas in the construction strategy. What makes you say, "nuts"? Is that a comment on aesthetic design, or on construction technique?
I think what I'm saying is that one cannot get the appearance (the heft, the bulk, the naturalness) of a thick slab if it doesn't show end grain. The beast doesn't exist in nature. You know it, I know it, and your client's friends will know it. Is this your idea or the clients to have a slab of wood without end grain?And, I'm sorry but there will be inherent criticism of the end product in any offer of help because each method of construction WILL affect the look of the piece. Sorry if I stepped on your toes.
No worries- just offer suggestions to back up how ridiculous you think this is.The look is the client's idea. He's going for that modern, euro look you see in high-rise condos. Main problem- he wants solid materials instead of sheetstock. Just trying to keep my client happy. I'm well aware that there are easier and more practical ways to build the unit. If you have suggestions, I'm all ears.
Given the oxymoronicy of the client's request, presumably the client knows nothing about wood. When he or she asked for hot ice cream, perhaps you could have explained why that didn't make much sense. You know, explain how wood works and the issue with making something solid, with no end grain and no seams.
If you had such a conversation, I'd love to hear how it went.
http://www.pollaro.com/artdeco.php
See slide AD27. Is this what you have in mind (the top at least)?
Edited 3/26/2009 2:18 pm ET by BossCrunk
If that top isn't veneer then I'd like to know how it was done.
It's veneer.
Bang on, BossCrunk. That's the top I'm going for! I agree that the torsion box is probably the best way to build it using veneers, but I'm trying to stick with solid wood.
If that is as you say, "the top I'm going for!", then your options using solid wood are non-existent that I can think of. Your only option is something that largely emulates the construction of that item, ie, veneer on a ground of man-made board.
You can only force solid wood to do what it physically doesn't want to do, or physically can't do, up to a certain point. After that the stuff just comes back and bites your backside, in lots of places, and deep and hard, ha, ha.
Sell your client the veneer job, or back away fast from the job. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Use veneer but be sure to reassure your client that its 100% solid wood. Just neglect to tell him that you only mean the veneer is solid wood. Of course I'd never do this. I read many years ago that the fair trade laws or the truth in advertising laws allow such chicanery. One can say "solid oak" cabinets. And this is true.... the oak is solid. It just happens to be glued to some particle board.
Yeah, but make sure to fill the torsion box with bricks.
I suggest that you post a drawing that depicts just what you/your client have in mind. Don't bother that you don't know how to achieve it... just draw what you want to see. Then you will get some pertinent advice. Or, you might get the consensus that it's impossible. Either way is more direct.
Others have made the point, but it is not possible to have a large slab of solid wood that doesn't have end-grain showing on 3 sides without making a joint on the ends of the piece. There are various ways to do this (with the joints), one of which is to use "breadboard" ends that are mitered on the front corners. You will still have a small, visible strip of long grain that's perpendicular to the grain of the main piece, but it's perhaps the only way to show mostly long-grain on 3 sides of a solid wood slab. The other disadvantage is that you can only pin one end of the each breadboard end - the other end must float, or the entire thing will tear itself apart when the humidity changes slightly.
Otherwise, you're absolutely forced to use a veneered construct of some description, one of the best ways (and most efficient in terms of materials and weight) is a veneered torsion box.
Ok- what do you guys think of this? Only the front is glued, the rest floats, being held down onto the frame with metal fasteners which will allow for movement. No visible endgrain, except on the back which will be facing a wall anyways. Thanks for all the responses so far!I pitched the torsion box idea to my client... he's insistent on solid wood materials only.
I think you've drawn several difficult to cut and fit miters. The end, cross-grain miter cannot be glued and will probably open up at sometime in the future. I don't think it will look good, it certainly won't look like a solid board, for long. Additionally the end board and the surface board won't be even through all seasons on the back edge. You know this, but your finicky client doesn't and he/she will have a fit when it happens. (Oh... you can inform them of what will happen, but particular people such as the one you have for a client, seldom believe. I've a feeling you will be to blame for nature.)The easiest way to get what you want is to get a three inch thick plank and make end return miters on it. Of course, mitering a 3" plank isn't for the faint of heart. Good luck.
Thanks for keeping an eye on this thread, sapwood; I appreciate it.
What you're saying is that the two end pieces will have the same grain direction as the top, correct? How would you orient the front "apron"? Would you run it long, following the top, or edge join many pieces to make the grain perpendicular?
Here's a quasi-serious thought (see pic). Don't know if it would work in real life.
I like where you're going with that... there's some nice out of the box thinking! I'm going to play around with some ideas... I'll let you guys know.
Build a plywood torsion box and cover it with veneer.
Echo
I agree build a torsion box and veneer it, or just use a couple of sheets of a good plywood or MDF put a 2-3 inch solid lip around the entire piece and veneer the top and bottom. This will make the piece extremely heavy.I built an entertainment center that I wanted to be 2 inches thick, but didn't want the weight. So I built a torsion box outer frame and veneered everything.Kaleohttp://www.craftsmansbrew.wordpress.com
Edited 3/26/2009 6:32 am by Kaleo
Or maybe you can steam bend 3" thick ash or oak planks at a right angle for the ends. You might need a compression strap.
>Three inches thick<
Yes build it hollow and veneered or solid wood but not that thick in the middle then use a thick boarder.
If you build it all three inch you will be hating life. I made the mistake of making butcher block counters and table from two by fours on edge " four " inch thick. That was insanely heavy. I was in high school and not into wood working. ( The metal shop was full ) What can I say. Wish the teacher had had his eyes open though.
I can not imagine Oak that thick all the way ! Much heavier. Not to mention big bucks.
PS:
Oh and welcome to Knots !
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 3/25/2009 9:29 pm by roc
guy,
Combine cincinnati and Mike's suggestion. Start with a 10' 6"+ long x 25"+ wide x 3/4" (or more) thick panel. Cut off 3" from each end, miter the ends of the top, and the cutoffs on one end and one edge. Rip 3" off the edge of the top, and miter the edge of the top and the ripped-off piece. Crossgrain is only 3" at the ends of the "apron"; if you blind spline it or put a glueblock behind the joint, movement will not be too hateful.
Get help when it comes time to make that 10' long mitered glueup.
Agreed, it is a fool's errand, but I've done crazier things to keep a good customer happy.
Ray
Below is my understanding of your description Ray. That will work. But when the original questioner identified the Pollaro image provided by BossCrunk as being exactly what he was looking for, that can't be done successfully in solid wood-- only a veneer job will work in that configuration.
The cross grain structure at the corners of the lipping or edging to give the illusion of thickness should be okay; there is not a huge amount of cross grain expansion and contraction to cause the structure to break apart. The structure is a bit tricky to construct neatly without gaps and the like, but not beyond the ability of a half competent maker. Slainte.
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richardjonesfurniture.com
Just so, Richard,
Thanks for the illustration.
Agreed that the cross-grain direction on the ends of the tabletop that Boss linked to would guarantee self destruction if done in solid wood.
The small amount of crossgrain at the end corners as you have drawn, is comparable to many chair apron-to-leg joins which are often re-inforced with glue blocking, with no ill effects.
Ray
I am sure you will NOT like. What is SO WRONG with end grain? Wood HAS endgrain.. And Wood is wood!
OK, so maybe, mask it a bit with strip of inlay to mask the center part and the natural grain to show on the top and bottom?
Nothing wrong with it at all; just can't be visible for this project.
Not sure I understand the rest of your ideas...
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