I just acquired a maple bench top: 3 inches thick, 30 inches wide, and 10 feet long. It had been used in a pastry shop. It appears to be in very good condition, with just a few dings and knife marks, but I have not yet determined how flat it is. I can not be 100% certain that it is laminated maple, but it is very hard and heavy. I think it was sealed with oil only (I guess mineral oil).
I want to use it for a workbench and could use advice about a “few details”. First, should I shorten it to 6 or 7 feet? I would like to be able to plane long boards (up to 8 feet) on the bench. Second, how difficult will it be for this newbie to put in bench dog holes (I would use a drill and chisel I guess)? Should I use round or square dogs? Finally, is there a good design for a really rock-steady base I can mount the top on? I know there are many good designs out there, but I have a problem with a very uneven concrete floor that will require height adjustments for each leg.
Of course, I could keep the 10-foot top and use it as a tool bench and glue-up table. Then I would build John White’s terrific bench for hand-work.
Thanks to all for your guidance.
Replies
First of all, WOW, what a chunk of wood you've got yourself. Must weigh a couple hundred pounds! Good deal?
You should make your bench as long as possible, especially if you will be dealing with long boards. 10' is not too long if your workshop is longer than that by, say, 2' on each end.
Round dogs, in my book, are superior. Not only are they easier to install (especially in an already glued up slab), they can also be used to clamp work at angles (think of a circle). A plunge router is the best tool for installation, as it practically guarantees that the holes will be square to the top. Use a template and bushing in your router to ensure the holes are spaced evenly. A 3-4" spacing is good. Square dogs are usually mortised into the benchtop at an angle and this is best done when the benchtop is still in narrow strips waiting to be glued up.
Have a look at the benches commercially available for an idea on how to build a base. To stop your bench from rocking, wooden wedges work wonders.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Thanks Chris,
I paid $99 for it, and it will be delivered to my shop for free! Round dogs it is.
Make the bench as long as possible, but no so long that you can't walk around both ends. As Chris suggests, a plunge router does a good job of cutting round dog holes. A 3/4" Forstner bit will typically have a 5/16" shaft, which is almost exactly 8mm. If you don't already have an 8mm collet, you can get an adapter bushing that will fit into a 1/2" collet.
-Steve
Thanks Steve,
I'll look into the Forstner bit idea. My shop is 60 ft by 20 ft. No problem with space other than optimal layout of tools and benches.
Looking for some education here. I thought Forstner bits were generally run at low speed in a drill press, like 500 RPM. Is it OK to use them in a router that is going to turn at considerably higher RPM? Why not just use a 3/4" plunge router bit?
Forstner bits are normally run at low speeds because they are normally used to drill really big holes. Assuming you have a variable-speed router, a 3/4" Forstner bit will do fine at the router's lowest speed setting. Obviously, a workbench's worth of dog holes in 3"-thick hard maple might be all that one bit can handle before giving up the ghost, but that's to be expected.
A 3/4" plunge router bit will work, but there are a couple of limitations: One, the overall bit length is usually quite short, so you might not have enough length to go all of the way through a thick bench top (you can get long bits, but they're expensive). Two, since router bits cut on the side as well as the end, they won't keep themselves centered in the hole, and you have to be very careful to avoid enlarging the hole beyond 3/4".
-Steve
Thanks for the education Steve. Now I can go to sleep knowing
I have learned something today. Chuck
"Two, since router bits cut on the side as well as the end, they won't keep themselves centered in the hole, and you have to be very careful to avoid enlarging the hole beyond 3/4"."
That's why I recommended using a template guide and template.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Danger Danger Danger !!!! NO WAY, forstner bit in a router ever. And depending on how the lumber is joined and or glued up there maybe screws or nails in there too. So I would pass on the plunge router with a plunge bit too. I drilled my bench with a 1/2" Milwaukee angle drill and a forstner bit.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
I've done it several times. Of course, we're talking about small-diameter Forstner bits here (3/4" or less).
The admonition about screws and/or nails is certainly valid. But you won't know about those until you try.
-Steve
Here's a close-up photo of a dog hole I made in a piece of hard maple. As you can see, the hole is nice and clean, with no sign of burning. I don't recall for sure, but the Forstner bit I used was fairly new, if not brand new. (And I've used the bit in a drill press since....) I used a DeWalt 618 plunge router at its lowest speed, and the bit was a Freud bit I picked up at Lowe's (strictly speaking, it's a hybrid Forstner/saw tooth type bit).
View Image
-Steve
Suggested RPM for Forstner bits runs from 200 to 500 (depending on size). Let alone shank size which is critical for proper hold in a router. Luckily, I have never had a router bit come out of a router but there are many HORROR stories of such cases and the injuries sustained. So tempting fate by using a forstner bit in a router, which is not designed for, gives me chills!Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
As far as shank size is concerned, I tried to make that clear: You obviously need something that fits the router collet, and a 5/16" (aka 8mm) shank, as is common with 3/4" Forstners, fits the bill. If your bit only sorta kinda fits, then I heartily agree--it's not a good idea at all.
I've had my fair share of router excitement, such as the time I was using a Porter Cable-style bushing and it unscrewed itself in the middle of a cut. And I am very reluctant to use any bit larger than about 7/8" diameter except in a router table. But this particular operation has worked well for me in the past. I always do it with the router base firmly held in place (either clamped directly to the workpiece or captured on the sides to prevent side-to-side motion). If you think about it, the cutting edges of a Forstner bit are very much the same as those on the end of a plunge router bit. There is certainly some concern with overheating of the bit, but if you start with a sharp bit and cut the hole smoothly and without hesitation, it works just fine.
-Steve
I'am thinking we will have to agree to disagree :-)
I wonder if there isn't a "hidden" meaning behind Hex shanks on most forstner bits?Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Well, hex shanks are obvious: There is a lot of torque on really big bits, and Jacobs chucks, while nice and convenient, don't hold nearly as firmly as collect chucks. When they do slip, it makes a mess of a round-shanked bit's shank. The hex shank is like a window washer's safety cable: It catches the bit when the chuck lets go. (On the other hand, hex shanks are fussier; you have to wiggle the bit into place to ensure that the chuck is centered on the flats.)
-Steve
Steve,
A 5/16" shank on a 3/4" forstner? Really? All the ones I've seen have a 3/8" shank!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I'll preface this post by saying I have built many benches, at least 100. First thing, if you have the room, leave the top 10'-0" long. Use round dog holes.Do not use a router with a forstner bit. These bits should turn at no more than 650 rpms.The slowest speed of any router I have used is 8000 rpm's. You would ruin the bit before you bored the first hole.
I never bored square to the top, the dog works best at a slight angle . 2 or 3 degrees tilted towards the vice. I bored the holes with a 3/4" spade bit with a home made collar and angle guide. I stopped 1/4" short of bottoming out,then bored from the other side to prevent splitting out.
The angle guide was a scrap 2" thick about 6" long. I bored an angled hole thru the top, cut a notch out of the bottom so I can see the point of the bit. The top of the guide was cut down to a height that left the point go thru but not the cutting edge.Add an ell shaped piece to the side with screws that defines the centerline of the dogholes and also an area to clamp down. If you run a double line of dogs ( recomended) then remove the ell shaped piece for a wider one for second row. Make sure both rows line up square to each other.
If you think angling the dog hole is a waste of time, try it in a scrap. Bore another hole square.Somehow clamp the scrap down opposite the vice and try clamping up a board. You will find the angled dog will not pop the board up, the square to the top dog probably will with slight pressure.If you have a lathe, make your own dogs. Use any hardwood. If your holes are 3/4" make the dogs a hair less. The top of the dog can be 1 3/8" or so and various thicknesses. I usually turn the dogs with a 1/2 thick head, and 1" thick head. Then I cut one side off to give me a flat edge. This probably is not necessary, I was taught this way almost 50 years ago,so i still do it.
mike
I never bored square to the top, the dog works best at a slight angle . 2 or 3 degrees tilted towards the vice.
It would be much smarter and easier to drill holes 90 degrees to the top and angle the face of the bench dogs. Down the line you may want to add a vice to the other end or you may wish to use those "wonder dogs" from Lee Valley. Angled holes are not the usual way to do bench dogs.
Good luck with the bench, sounds like you got a great deal.
Lee
For starters, angled holes are the correct way to bore bench dog holes. Even if you prefer square dogs the holes are angled 2°. Craftsmen from centuries gone built their benches with angled square holes, for the reasons I mentioned in the first post.
You could make the dog with a tapered face, should effectively do the same thing . How do you do that with round dogs?As far as boring an angled hole, there is no difference at all between square to the top and angled as far as time or difficulty if you use a jig similar to what I described in the first post.I am not familiar with wonder dogs, never used anything but wood for dogs.
mike
"You could make the dog with a tapered face, should effectively do the same thing . How do you do that with round dogs?"You could try a handsaw, or a sander... I've also see round dogs passed through a square piece of ply with an angle on its edge.I've got to tell you, it seems less work to angle the dogs, than the dog holes. As well if the dog holes are not angled you can use the dogs to hold jigs and such.The Veritas dogs come with an angled face.
Using round dogs and angling their faces rather than the holes has the additional advantage that you're not constrained to have the force applied to the workpiece in a predetermined direction. That way, you can more easily hold irregularly-shaped workpieces, the same dog holes can be used with both a front vise and an end vise, etc.
-Steve
Very true. I've been using the Veritas wonder pup for the last year. Great little helper, a little on the expensive side though. But I suppose what isn't in this hobby...
I used round bench dogs with no angle in my bench. Cut them using a drill press and a spade bit. I did this of course when the bench top was in two pieces.
Just to throw a micro back bevel on a micro bevel on a bevel....Staying away from the pros and cons of angled dog drilling but addressing only the angling of the dog faces;
It would seem to me that without an intermediate caul to absorb the pressure, would not the forward contact point (top of the dog) put excess pressure at point of contact, perhaps inadvertently deforming a valued edge? Especially on softer stock? Kind of a dent "of the dog that bit you"?
...would not the forward contact point (top of the dog) put excess pressure at point of contact...
I suppose you are correct. I don't know off hand what Veritas angles thier dogs at, but a slop of 1-2 degrees isn't tha much.
Santa was nice enought to put these little plastic covers in my stocking last year. They fit over the veritas bench dogs to protect the work piece.
Yes, but that's true to some extent with any kind of clamping mechanism. The Veritas dogs have corresponding plastic "muzzles" that you can put on them to act as cushions.
I try to avoid clamping "valuable" edges at all whenever possible, and either use a caul (if clamping is required) or work against a stop instead.
-Steve
Steve,I was just comparing the relative directions of thrust on the LV pages-
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=31127&cat=1,41637
versus
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=31131&cat=1,41637As to muzzles, just so many more "accessories to paw thru in the junk drawer. :-)I use both (not LV but other and home made with springs) so I thought it might be a point of discussion. The square pegs do appear to be direct pressure vs, the canted face on the round ones. I use mostly square with cork faces pads for final work.( 2 different benches. 1 small bench, slant hole, square wood dogs.
One massive bench, round holes / straight /and round metal dogs-vertical faces)Thoughts?Ahab looking for a white.
I don't have any of the Lee Valley square dogs, so I can't inspect one closely, but it looks to me that the face is parallel to the shaft. Thus, if you insert one into the typical canted square dog hole, the face is going to be at more or less the same angle with respect to the surface of the benchtop as the face on a round dog.
-Steve
They are. Bad illustration.
On my woods the face is off axis perpendicular to the bench while the shaft is canted. Sorry, I didn't look that closely at LV's drawing. I don't own any of theirs either. It is an error as their faces don't rock. If they did, they would!
All wood with cork makes the point almost mute but in brass..well I think there could be some concern. Then again, brass is also soft.Maybe some one had had a few dents or the opposite experience and could contribute.John
mike,
How do you do that with round dogs?
bandsaw?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Mike,
Most round dogs that I know of have faces that are slightly angled so that they don't pop the work up as you mention. By angling the dogs, they are useless from the other direction or from the side. This may be a rare situation, but certainly not unheard of. You can't really use Wonder Dogs with angled holes, either.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
thanks for confirming my suspicions. I didn't think it would be a good idea of spinning a Forstner bit in a router. When a tool clearly warns of the maximum rpm I've always tended to heed those cautions. The risk to safety isn't worth it.
If you've got space for it, keep it full sized and build a first-class base for it! Please no glue or other liquids on the benchtop! Consider round dog holes drilled with a brand-new spade bit. What are your vice plans? Hope it's not too far off flat.
Brian
IamL,
For such a heavy top you need a strong base. I suggest 16/4 for the legs (glued up from smaller if necessary) and 8/4 stretchers. I would also use 2 stretchers per side (a top and a bottom) making 8 stretchers in all (4 long & 4 short). This will give a base that is very strong and rigid without relying on getting any rigidity from the top itself.
Sucha beast would be a PITA to move. If there's a chance you may need to move it out of the building, make the base knockdown (eg use bed bolts to attach the frame ends via the long stretchers) and leave the top unattached but located with dry dowels, stops or some such to stop it moving about on the undercarriage.
If you have an uneven floor you might consider evolving a three-legged bench design. Three legs cannot wobble, although they don't guarantee the top would be horizontal. :-)
If you use those fine Veritas wonder dogs, which have small vises attached to the dog, you can afford to drill far fewer holes in the bench as the wonderdog vises, as well as the vise-proper, can be wound in or out to change the gap in which the workpiece needs to fit. The jaws of their mini-vises also have that 2-3 degree downslope, obviating any need for a slope in the doghole itself.
A slow-speed drill in one of those frames to keep it flat / 90 degrees to the worktop will be safer than a router with a Forstner bit. I think Steve is taking a Big Risk with his Forstner technique - 3 kicking horses gouging-in would not be my idea of fun!
If you use an auger with a screw-thread tip and outer wings, you can go quite slow with a power dril and avoid breakout. You could set the depth of the drillframe so that only the tip of the auger's screwthread emerges then finish the hole with a brace & bit; or from the underside. But does it matter if you get a little bit of breakout on the bottom of a 3 inch long dog hole anyway?
You might need to flatten the underside of such a thick slab as well as the top. It won't easily bend so it will have to sit four-square on the undercarriage if you want to avoid wobble.
Lataxe
I want to thank all the respondents. I like the diverse opinions and debate, it gives me food for thought and I really learn. I hope that I can return the favor someday.I am intrigued by the idea of 3 legs, although I wonder if the top would wobble front to back at the 1-leg end. I also wonder whether I could make up legs from two 8/4 pieces with a drawer-like slide arrangement so that I could adjust height. Would that weaken the legs too much or sacrifice rigidity?Also, will 10-foot stretchers tend to bend? Should I have another set of legs in the middle? If I bolt to the legs, should I use ####mortise/tenon joint too or just butt the boards (I suspect a mortise/tennon is best)?Thanks again to one and all.Lyle
Lyle,
will 10-foot stretchers tend to bend
Just some observations. I would think you will want some overhang so you will doubtful have stretchers 10' long. If you use 16/4 posts (4" x 4") those will be quite stout/beefy if made from hardwood and will be very strong. With significant (2" x 6") stretchers both top and bottom M&T'd, it should reduce racking considerably.
Also bear in mind that if the top rests on the posts the stretchers will not be carrying all the weight of the top. One way of securing the top to the base is via battens that could be bolted to the base so as to provide an ability to disassemble should there be a need to move the bench. I believe Lataxe has experience with these.
I would also go with round dogs and suggest looking at those from Lee Valley - Veritas. Lots of options with them.
If you want to add a cabinet underneath this can be built to add to the rigidity of the bench. A simple piece of ¾" thick plywood rabbetted into the back side and attached between the rear legs is VERY STRONG.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
IamL,
The 3-legger was a bit of a tease, I admit. The 3-legs for stability principle is correct - but I've never seen a three-legged bench, which must tell us something. On the other hand, I have seen many three-legged shaving horses, which are essentially a specialist bench made to work well on a very uneven floor (the forest floor).
Height-adjustable benches are certainly desirable and there are one or two models avialbale, commercially and (as I recall) to build, via an FWW article that I can't now find. It would be interesting to hear from someone who might own one of these height-adjustables as to whether the height adjusting mechanism detracts from bench stability/stiffness.
If the height will not be changed very often you could easily make feet-extenders - 4" X 4" blocks of the required raise-height with dry dowels inset to match dowel holes on the bottom of each leg. Getting them in and out of a very heavy bench might be a sweat-inducing exercise however. :-)
If the long stretchers are hardwood and thick (in both dimensions, as Bob suggests) they will be more than stiff enough - especially if there is four of them. A cupboard attached to (rather than merely sitting on) the bottom stretchers would add even greater stiffness; or you could put in a couple of cross-members halfway along. (I think that might be overkill though).
If you bench-bolt the long stretchers to the legs, for KD purposes, it does help to keep the stretchers properly aligned if you put a stub tenon on the stretcher ends and a matching shallow mortise on the leg insides. This locates the stretchers when fitting the bench together and stops them from rotating on the (round) bed bots.
Lataxe, a bench-fetishist
Sire,
Getting them in and out of a very heavy bench might be a sweat-inducing exercise however. :-)
Couldn't one elevate theyownsef instead of the mountain?
Perhaps a longish one for Adam so he can perform his dance the length o' the bench!?
Busily working on me stirring degree,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Your suspicions are correct - use the best joinery you've got in your toolkit. Mortise and tenon would be good, and wedged or draw-bored mortise and tenon would be better.
With a top that thick, it's unlikely you'll need more than 4 legs. Even soft maple is quite stiff, so sag shouldn't be a problem.
Now, though, you have to decide on the $64,000 question - what height do you want the benchtop? This is a critical decision, and if you get it wrong you could be really hating the result, or making a new base, or at least sawing off some of the length of the legs, and that isn't an easy thing to do on an assembled base.
Chris Schwarz has an excellent book on the subject "Workbenches: From Theory and Design to Construction and Use". It's well worth the $30 or so before beginning a project like this, and should help tremendously when it comes to several aspects of your design decisions.
Back to the height question - if you're a person that's into handplanes, I'd make the bench lower than I would if I was primarily going to use it to cut joinery. The reason is that you tire very quickly when using just your arms to handplane, and if the workbench is too high, that's what you'll be doing. If you're average height (5'-10" or so), I'd suggest making the top surface of the workbench 31". Some prefer this measurement even lower. Should you, at some point, decide you want it higher, you can bolt a cross-stretcher across the bottom of the two adjacent legs, which in my opinion at least, is one heck of a lot easier than correctly sawing off an identical 1 or 2" off of 4 16/4 legs.
Iamlearning,Just a cupala thoughts. I put my legs in sleds..both top and bottom. The sleds allow me a very solid base. Also, I can adjust the height down the road by gluing on or removing wood from the sleds. The sled on top has routed slits so the wood can move when bolted to the base. I also put a dado (1/2")on the underside the table top to accept the sleds...eliminate any twist.The tough question is going to where to place the vises...some good opportunities there.
Three legs would cause a stability problem. You would have 2 areas of the bench which, if heavily loaded, could cause it to tip over. Granted that the bench is heavy there is still that risk.
Just my $0.03 (inflation you know). I have my bench 6.5 feet long that sits out in the shop and not along a wall. If you plan to sit it along the wall then I’d say 10 feet would be fine. Just another suggestion is to cut off say 3 or 4 feet but not longer than the height of the bench you want to build. Reattach with good sturdy hinges along the bottom edge. When you need the extra length just flip it up and attach some legs (braced) on the end and your ready to work on long stock. Kinda like a table saw extension. You could cut it with a circular saw and finish up with a hand saw. Now if you have a wonderfully big shop then enjoy that marvelous monster.
Rockler sells a hand drill guide for under $40 that will drill at an angle. I’ve got one and it will work fine this application. The drill fits securely inside the guide. You can adjust the guide for a 1 or 2 degree tilt, whatever your preference. You will get the same tilt on every hole. No guesswork. Try it out first on a test piece, say 2 glued up 2x4s. If there is not enough travel to bottom out then you can take the drill out of the guide and finish up freehand. The angle is already established. To avoid tearout on the bottom, you can affix a 1x2 pine board to the bottom of the maple monster along where your holes will bottom out. Just screw the 1x2 in lightly (not 3 inch deck screws) and bottom out in or through the 1x2 (or 1x4). Just make sure you don’t set a screw where you hole will be.
My real job is being a forensic pathologist/medical examiner and I have seen numerous accidents over the years.
I had a case of a young carpenter putting a spade bit in a high speed drill and the bit broke at the weld between bit and shank similar to forester bits. the bit broke and went through his skull killing him.
I would recommend using forester or spade bits at a slow speed to avoid the bits shattering. Heck a brace and bit would not take that long if done over several weeks while pondering next design problem.
Sam
I'm interested in the method you plan to use to flatten the top. The only economical methods that come to mind is to either attack it with a good scrub plane followed by a #7 or #8 jointer plane or level it with a router jig using a dishcutter bit. Unless, of course, you know someone who has a 30" widebelt sander!
Regards,
Ron
There is a video clip showing Glen Huey (I think) using a simple jig to make bench dog holes with a router. It is at popularwoodworking.com then click on videos and then workshop. There are numerous videos. He uses a simple jig that could be altered to incorporate a 2degree tilt if you decide to do that. Good luck working on your new bench top. Bob
Lets see.. IF I had the room for one that long.. That is how long it would be! Period!
You can NEVER have a bench long enough!
UNLESS you are like me and have it collect junk!
Should I use round or square dogs?..
Depends on how accurately you can make them square holes!
Round holes will let the 'pegs' 'fit' the angle of edge. Within limits.
Finally..
Finally, is there a good design for a really rock-steady base I can mount the top on? I know there are many good designs out there, but I have a problem with a very uneven concrete floor that will require height adjustments for each leg.
Lets see. You said a maple top 10 foot long.. By 3 inches thick, 30 inches wide..
Hell, a Tank could drive over it safely!
As for leg length.. Make them all the same and THEN make TWO wooden wedges. Slip in from each end with a 'bit' of glue to hold them in place. If something changes.. Ask a few friends over to help you tip the bench over so you can chisel off the old wedges and put in new ones!
I'd think way to complicated for you.. Send the top to me.... I'll pay the shipping charges! Just funnin ya' on that one! :>)
Wow! What a great set of responses. I will have quite a time sorting through them while I arrive at my final design. I expect that I will have methods questions when I am ready to build. My first objective is to get the top into my shop and check it for flatness. Winding sticks? I plan to flatten with hand planes once I learn how to use them. The top should be here Thursday morning. After I recover from my hernia surgery I will locate the top more-or-less where it will finally live. I am thinking it should go up against a wall, but I could place it out so that it is accessible from all sides. I'll bet there are many opinions about that!My wife is a world-class grower of honey-dos, so I am not sure when I can actually start work on this thing. It will happen, and I am very grateful for all of your terrific advice.
Lyle,
I second Mr. Keller's advice is his post 42556.30. Do yourself a great favour and spring for Chris' book. It's a terrific easy-to-read book with lots of different approaches to workbenches and their accessories.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
My first objective is to get the top into my shop and check it for flatness. Winding sticks?
No baker likes crooked bread UNLESS they wanted them TAT way!
My wife is a world-class grower of honey-dos,
So was mine but she was usually fresh out of the shower and wrapped in a wet towel!
IAL. I recently did this with a factory top of hard maple. Four rows of 3/4" round dog holes 7" apart with the outboard rows no closer to the edge than 1 3/4 boards of the glued up top and the inboard rows evenly balanced between. I did the holes with a PC 694 variable speed 1 3/4 hp. plunge router using an ONSRUD 3/4" HSS twin spiral up cut router bit 1/2" shank. It was from Lee Valley for $37.50.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=42891&cat=1,46168,46171&ap=1
Wood craft also has the ONSRUD but call to check if in stock. I shimmed the base of the router with cardboard and veneer with double sided tape to get a 2 degree pitched hole towards the tail vise. This gives you the deep pilot hole to drill out the bottom with an auger bit. I had to run the ONSRUD at least 30 to 40% less than max speed to avoid burning and it ate the holes like they were in toast. I used a straight edged board clamped to the top to guide the router down the bench to each of the marked crosshairs for each hole and changed bits to a CMT chamfer to dress the edge of each hole(with out the shim) before moving the straight edge for each row.
At 10' I would use three "A" frame sled based supports no less than 4" stock with M&T wedged joints and 4 stretchers of 8" width using pairs of Lee Valley barrel bolts with stub tennons.
Get the book by Chris S. and READ IT AS A BOOK FIRST and then as a reference as it is the best source for figuring out what you want to make for a bench. The reason for the reading it all is to lay a ground work of info -even for stuff you don't think you need- that you never had any idea of as it will reinforce your decisions for the way that you decide to proceed. Don't even clean the top till you read it. That bench will be with you for a long time DON'T RUSH. Give us a shout when you want to think about vises. Good luck, Paddy
Paddy,
Don't you find the 7" spacing a little far? That requires a whole lot of cranking of the vise.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Wider-apart dog 'oles do mean more vise and/or wonder-dog cranking. However, the bench top is no longer so swiss cheese-like.
I doubt if lots and lots of holes would significantly weaken the bench but even with fewer, wider-apart holes I find I still have plugs, screws and other small parts dropping through so I have to scrabble about on the floor to fish them out-from-under. If there were more holes I would be scrabbling twice as much.
Also, it takes time to drill all them holes - a 10 footer such as that of the OP will amplify that time, compared to the usual 6 footer.
The most annoying thing about dog holes is the way that detritus accumulates in the bottoms of the blind holes drilled in the top of wooden vise jaws. I try to keep the dawgs in these kennels but as soon as I remove one to use elsewhere or to be out of the way, dust, shavings, screws, washers and sundry other bench flotsam make a beeline for the hole-bottoms. Eventually I blow them out with the airline, which always puffs a wad of dust into my eyes, ears, mouth and hair, no matter how much I try to avoid it.
I am trying to come up with a design of permanently-located dogs for the vise jaw - rather like those in some metal vises - which can be wound up to the required height; or wound down to be flush with the vise jaw-top. I can imagine a round post for the dog connected via a worm drive on its (buried-in-the-doghole) lower end to a small knob sticking out the face of the outer vise jaw......
Lataxe, a dog lover
Can't you just drill a hole from the face of your vise to the bottom of your dog holes? That lets most of the crap find a way out. (Can't claim any credit for the idea, and can't remember where it came from.)
Jim
Lataxe,
I've often wondered why there isn't a fixture that could be used such that ya don't need any 'o them dawgs.
After all, whatta ya need all them dawgs for anyway?
Scratchin me noggin,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 7/18/2008 2:00 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
I tried planing the woik without a coupla dogs bitin' it but it klied of off the end of the bench and got a ding from the drillpress table. Chiselling sans dawg or hold-down results in random exits of the workpiece from the bench to one point of the compass or another.
Lataxe, keeper of the bench hounds.
Dawg,
There're always planing stops as an alternative.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Lataxe,
I have never thought about the downsides to having more dog holes. Then again, I have never riddled a benchtop with them (I'm about to, though) and haven't had a problem losing small parts through them.
Under what circumstance would you even have a blind dog hole? Not only do they accumulate debris like you mention, but what if you lose a dog in there? It would be well worth the effort to convert those into through dog holes. As for cleaning them out, try a vacuum. If that doesn't work, try a vacuum with compressed air.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
The blind dog holes are those in the wooden vise jaw-tops of the Veritas twin screw vises I use as face and end vises. The jaws are 7 and 10 inches deep so the dog holes are left blind as the dogs are a mere 4 inches long. The dog holes are just short of 4 inches, so the dogs can't disapper entirely into the holes. Even so, I need to pull them out with a plier if they are sunk to the hole-bottoms, then showing only 1/8" of dog-top.
The vaccum will suck out detritus from the top end of the dog holes but stuff in the bottoms resists the suck. I use the compressor to blow out the bottom-crap whenever I charge up its tank to do a bit of pinning or other task needing compressed air. This is when the bottom-muck blows violently onto my personage. :-)
****
Lyle,
I nearly did suggest that you cut your bench top down to around 6 foot as I believe only specialists like boatbuilders need to routinely handle much longer planks and such. On those occassions when I work on stuff longer than 6 foot, the 6ft 6 ins long benchtop of mine is adequate for handling up to 8 - 9ft. Use of the face vise or a side dog & extending clamp or two bench hold downs (depending on the workpiece) keeps everything in place.
If you did cut the piece you have into, say, 6ft and 4ft, the smaller piee might well make an excellent assembly/finishing table, which typically needs to be much lower than a WW bench top. I haven't room for a finishing table in my shed but often wish I had. I have to resort to a 1/4 sheet of plywood cramped into a workmate with its legs still folded, which I can only use outside on the drive - not an ideal environment for finishing.
Lataxe
PS Here be moi bench:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=33822.137
Edited 7/20/2008 8:18 am ET by Lataxe
Drilling a 3/4" hole through the wooden face of the vise jaw at right angles to the doghole, and meeting it at the bottom, not only allows you to blow dust etc. through, it also makes it easier to get the dog in and out because there is no longer air trapped beneath it. Works for me.
Jim
Jim,
I'm going to drill them holes you suggest. Thank you for the excellent suggestion.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
Gee golly, that's one wide jaw!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Lataxe,I have been looking for a "side" dog similar to the unit you have attached to your end vise. Do you recall where you purchased it from?ThanksJohn
John,
The only place I know that sells them little clawed items is here:
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-York-End-Mounted-Bench-Stop-480178.htm
Paddy (the hat) wanted some too. When he couldn't find them anywhere in the the States, he bought some from Axminster, who charged him an arm, a leg and part of his liver to post them from Blighty.
It seems surprising that such things cannot be found in the USA . They may go under a different trade name. A vigorous Google search might turn one up eventually (although I think Paddy tried that already).
Lataxe
Lataxe,
Thank you. I looked at Ax and your right. Ouch. At least it's with VAT included. They do that so they don't have to take your spleen. The shipping must be fierce as they don,t give U.S. rates at all. Might be cheaper to have a machinist do it. I'm sure Paddy looked and would have mentioned it.Thanks again.
John
John, IIRC I went for 60 to 70 bucks* all in (no VAT on export) and there was a two-fer price ? and a better exchange rate at the time. I would guess that you are looking at just short of a C-note for a pair. Get two and sell one . They are nifty items and I would do it again. It would also be neat as a popup on the end edge of the bench as a planning stop, ya think? All the best, Paddy
* there is a post that I disclosed all in @ two years ago. pfh
Paddy,"planning stop"
That's the very reason I was looking for one.
ThanksJohn
Lataxe & boiler,
Quite a while back I also looked far and wide on this side of the puddle for them thangs and with no success. So a friend of mine (machinist) are going to make our version of 'em.
Actually I made one with a pipe flange and a nipple and 90° elbow that kinda worked. Filin the teeth was a PITA though.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,would like to see a photo of it. I'm not after fancy, just workable.
Any chance to see your unit? I'm not critical and it might be just right or at least a starting point.I have files :)ThanksJohn
Forgot to ask. New Hampshire...Small State, Big storm...Tornados...Everything good?Boiler
I made my bench from 8-ft sections of an old bowling alley and did the same thing. After building one 6-ft. workbench, I built another 4-ft bench which I can butt up to the original if I need more length. (so far, not necessary). I left one piece 8 ft. long and made a low assembly bench along the back wall of my shop. Big mistake, all those nails in a bowling alley make it so heavy I can't move it :-) - - still a work in progress, I'll post a pic or two when I get a tail vise made.
That's a good-looking bench, and it's a helpful reference for me when thinking about design and how to incorporate some of your suggestions.I don't expect to work with boards over 8 feet very often but the longer bench does give me flexibility and "room". I also don't trust myself to make a good clean cut in such a massive piece. I do have room for both an assembly and a finishing bench. In fact, I have a separate room. I bought an old farm with outbuildings, one of which is 60x40 ft. It's not heated, but what the heck. I just postpone glue ups till spring-fall and just work on sunny days in winter. I have the luxury of lots of space but little skill or experience. I have observed however, that despite your working circumstances: "I haven't room for a finishing table in my shed but often wish I had. I have to resort to a 1/4 sheet of plywood cramped into a workmate with its legs still folded, which I can only use outside on the drive - not an ideal environment for finishing." some of the best work is done under the most difficult conditions. Such conditions engender real creativity.Thanks for all your helpful advice.
Lyle
Chris, yes it may seem so but the tail vise is a lovely LV twin screw with a max open of 12". I can always drop a few new holes if I get into a project that need them repeatedly. I use 4 long and short LV dogs, some hickory blocks on pinned 3/4" maple dowel and the quickest is iron hold downs used with small hardwood pads as cauls with one of those smaller black deadblow hammers. All the best, Paddy.
edit; Btw once you figure out how many holes you are planning to cut in 2 1/2" hard maple you become a minimalist and look for a better method. I did a half doz. with a Milwaukee hole shooter or a PC 19.2 volt drill using spur bits, carbon steel and carbide forstners and a brace with either old irwin or russel jennings augers. They would have taken me days as the brace worked the best but the 2 degree pitch was always in question jiged or not. I took the afternoon off and hunted till I found the onsrud bit in a woodcraft 30 miles away on the other side of Bay's Mt, in Johnson City Tn. Once I lowered the speed and drilled 3 holes you could probably have heard me scream "YES" in Kentucky. The RJ auger neatly took out the rest with little or no break out.
Edited 7/18/2008 1:14 pm ET by PADDYDAHAT
TURN IT OVER--BOTH SIDES DINGED?-SHEESH
Lyle,
One other thought - if the dings and scratches in the top are deep, you may be able to lift or even eliminate them by heating water dropped sparingly into the indents, with an iron or other hot metal implement.
I use those metal artists' pallette knives that have a wooden hande and a cranked shaft to deal with the ding. They heat quickly in a small propane kitchen torch or similar and will boil/steam out quite deep dings - assuming the dings are crushed areas of wood rather than chunks cut out. The wood handle means your fingers don't get too hot.
Reducing the depth of such marks might mean you have to do much less planing to get the top not just flat and but also smooth. Of course, once you start using the bench, you will be making a new set of dings perhaps. :-)
Lataxe
Thanks for that tip! I will have the top in my shop tomorrow, but as I remember the dings aren't bad. I figured I could live with them because I would just be adding more of my own. However, I will inspect more closely and try your technique if needed.If top is flat, I may hand-plane lightly just to clean and smooth it up. LyleOh yeah, I have ordered the book by Chris Schwarz that was recommended by dkellernc and others. Hope to learn a lot more. I like the idea of using wonder dogs, but wonder how many are needed.By the way, why are those pegs called dogs?
Edited 7/16/2008 6:02 pm ET by Iamlearning
Lyle,
Dawgs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_%28engineering%29
Lataxe.
PS You need as many dogs as you need. :-) I would begin with four. Currently I have 6 round aluminium ones and four Veritas wonder dogs (2 large and 2 small).
Don't forget the bench hold-down. That Veritas one fits in 3/4" hole, works very well - but is expensive.
Then there are the specialist ones. I may show you my side-dog and retractable biter.
Edited 7/17/2008 6:42 am ET by Lataxe
Thanks Lataxe
now I even know why those shutter thingys are called dogs.I like the Veritas wonder dogs and will plan on them. I also like the idea of making my own from wood, but I don't have a lathe. I expect I will be investing a lot of dollars and time in my bargain top. It won't be a showpiece, but it will be a good solid bench when I'm done thanks to you and all the others.Lyle
Lyle,
I also like the idea of making my own from wood, but I don't have a lathe.
MIght wanna check into ¾" birch dowels. If you have a bandsaw it's relatively simple the cut angled faces into them. Easily replaced too.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 7/17/2008 8:13 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Yeah, but you'd invest more time and a LOT more dollars if you had to buy the maple as 8/4 planks and glue it up. Take it from someone that did exactly that - you got a bargain on the top, no matter how dinged.
Besides, if you've ever looked at a bench that was in actual use (instead of a showpiece - some benches do turn out to be used for that function), you'd see lots of dings. The dings just don't matter unless they're huge and you're working on small pieces.
Finally, if you're new to hand-planing, I think I'd suggest not planing the top to get it flat. Achieving flatness with handplanes isn't rocket science, but it does take some degree of skill, and there's a danger you could significantly round the edges and ends of your top without that skill. It's highly likely that your top is flat enough to use for a little while to understand and practice handplaning so that you've the confidence to get it right.
One very good exercise to develop that skill is "4-squaring" a few pine or poplar boards. To do this, you need a marking gauge, a couple of winding sticks (make them yourself or use a couple of pieces of aluminum angle), a jointer plane (such as a Stanley #7 or #8, or an equivalent Lie-Nielsen or Lee Valley knock-off), and a smooth plane or a jack plane (Stanley #4, #5, or #5-1/2). Those 4 tools are enough to do basic flattening and squaring of most any size board, though as your skills grow you will probably add additional planes to your arsenal.
I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest just because of the sheer size of the top. I knew it reminded me of something. I just came in from the shop where I keep my books and the dust cover of the Scott Landis book "The Workbench Book" shows a humongous workbench top that may be a little bigger than yours but not much. Very Interesting!
John
This has been a great discussion with lots of good input from most respondents. It is interesting that no one, including me, has the heart to suggest I shorten the top. I'll bet none of my advisers has a 10-foot bench (Lataxe?)! I will make the bench that large, and hope it doesn't collect a lot of stuff on it other than shavings and sawdust. Of course, I have the advantage of a very large shop.
Edited 7/18/2008 9:40 pm ET by Iamlearning
I suppose this is fairly obvious, but sometimes missed when woodworkers need to drill a lot of precisely-located and angled holes. If you decide to use a forstner bit and a hand drill to put the dog holes in your bench (assuming you've decided to go with holdfasts and round dogs, that is), you can easily drill precisely perpendicular holes with a simple wood block.
You will likely want access to a drill press to make the block - simply bore a hole with your chosen forstner bit in a maple (or other hard wood) block that's been carefully squared, 2" thick, perpendicular to the surface. Since the forstner bit only has cutters on the bottom, the guide block will stand up to perhaps 30 or 40 holes before the friction of the sides of the bit enlarges the hole sufficiently for it to become sloppy.
You might want to purchase a couple of holdfasts before you undertake drilling the top (some inexpensive ones that work can be had from http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com). The first couple of holes can be drilled towards one edge of the bench where the guide block can be clamped. Thereafter, you use the previously drilled holes and the holdfasts to clamp the guide block to the surface of the bench.
Thanks for the tip. I may do just that.Lyle
Nobody even offered to buy it from you and save you all the hassle, so here goes, I'll give you $198 for it, you could double your money? heh? what do you think. Man with a shop that big, 10' would be great, heck you could lease half of your bench and with enough sawdust flying around you might not even see the guy.
I have a 7' bowling alley for a bench, made the base out of 2x6 and 2x8, works great doesn't move. Although, I have learned not all bowling alleys are glued together, mine happens to be nailed, sooo bench dogs don't work so well.
DaveChildren are our future, unless we stop them now -- Homer Simpson
My Purpleheart really well done bench is long gone.. I made it the best I could.. I'd say not far from perfect.. (My standards!)
precisely-located and angled holes...
It had them... In fact, a steel plate pattern made on one of the first CNC machines for our company... Hell, it was a test and I was in charge! I could do anything I wanted.
Yes... I told the 'BIG' boss what I was doing.. I had to pay some small price for the material used. Something to do with taxes? As I remember... The real test was for placement of holes and outline and angles a a VERY long list of other things we had to test for.. I just added... actually using it!
On my current JUNK bench.. No dogs or holes at all! I have several hunks of QS Oak (various thicknesses) that fit across the bench width that I clamp down where I need it! I can angle it most any way I want to! If I have to keep something from moving sideways. A 'stick' or two and some clamps to hold it..
I gave up on fancy stuff!
Lyle,
Nobody has suggested that you cut the bench down because everyone knows that a bench cannot be too big. We are all envious of you.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
This has been a great discussion with lots of good input from most respondents. It is interesting that no one, including me, has the heart to suggest I shorten the top.
ITS YOUR top you do as YOU want! I for one said leave it that long.. However NEVER fit in my shop!
Leave it full length. Don't pepper with dog holes. That's a waste of time. You need 4-6 staggered 3/4" holes for holdfasts and one planing stop hole. The planing stop hole should be square and large. Mine is 2"x2". Align the hf holes such that when the neck faces you, you can rest a 1x12 against the planing stop and against the foot of the hf.
As far as the legs go, I think Lataxe is on the right track. You want 4x4's and I would make the stretchers 4x4's and bring all of it flush with the front edge of the bench- legs, stretchers, all of it. You only need upper stretchers on the ends. Leave a small gap between the tops of the legs and the tops of the stretchers, such that when the top is on, it sits on the legs and there's an 1/8" or 1/4" gap at the stretchers. Lag bolt the top to these stretchers with large lag bolts. The holes through the stretchers near the front edge should be tight, close tolerance, with respect to the bolt diameter. The rear holes should be very loose. The holes should be as close to the legs as practical. 2" from the legs max.
For vises, you can't beat the simplicity or power of a leg vise. If you want a twin screw like the veritas, consider putting it on the LEFT. It's nice to have the right end clean for sawing. Large wooden vise screws are now available. Wooden screws are very nice to use and very simple to install.
What is emerging in my description is Chris Schwarz' French bench. This is a tough bench to beat. It's simple to build and works great. It's been popular for 300 years. The only problem with it is that it is a tool you must learn to use properly. So beginners don't naturally gravitate to it. My guess is, if you don't build this bench now, you'll build it later and regret what you did with this nice maple.
Adam
It is not the size that matters but how you use it. (someone had to say it)
Doug
I agree with Adam's post just above in that this top lends itself to the Roubo style. I would consider using the "wooden bullet" to attach the top since you've got weight going for you. Maybe a 1" dowel, rounded over on one end which sits in a hole drilled in the top of each leg. Matching holes are drilling into the top and then the top just sits down on top of the bullets.
Decide what you want to use to hold your work (holdfasts, dogs, etc.) then determine how much reach each has (n/a to dogs, obviously). Then you know how far apart you need holes. You could just have one hole for a planing stop. Then just clamp battens across the bench instead of dogs whenever you're using the vice.
The front faces of your bench should be in one plane (leg faces, edge of top, stretcher, inside vise jaw) to aid in clamping. A deadman of some type could be helpful.
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