Replies

1. 
   Mark_Roderick | Aug 12, 1999 03:35am | #1

   *
   According to the manufacturers, the advantage of a suction-fed gun is that because the material is fed into the gun by gravity, you need less pressure from the compressor and tend to get a nice even flow. People I've spoken with say they love their gravity-feed guns.

   The disadvantage is that you can't turn it upside down, so it's awkward to spray the inside of cabinets, etc.

   I think the only advantage of a suction gun is that you can turn it upside down.

   MARK RODERICK

1. 
   Michael_Richwine | Aug 15, 1999 07:05am | #2

   *You forgot to mention pressurized cup conversion guns. These run off compressed air, some as low as 7 CFM at 50 PSI. They are a ton faster and more versatile than turbine guns, give great control of fluid feed, and can be attached to a pressure pot if yoou want real flexibility.Sharpe and Binks both make guns that I use and can vouch for - The Sharpe 998HVLP sells for around $300, and the Binks Mach I runs about $500 for a gun that will last forever, even in industrial use.Take a look at these -- they give a lot of performance for the money, especially if you have a compressor that will put out 7 or 8 cfm.

1. 
   Mark_Roderick | Aug 15, 1999 06:42pm | #3

   *I think you're mixing apples and oranges. A "pressurized cup conversion gun" is indeed the third option, where a gravity-fed gun and a suction cup are the first two. But the gravity-fed gun and the suction gun can also be so-called "conversion" HVLP guns, which just means HVLP running off a compressor rather than running off a turbine. For example, the Binks Mach 1 gun, which is a conversion gun, can be run in any of those three ways: as a gravity-fed gun, as a suction gun, or off a pressure pot.I'm interested in your experience with the Binks gun, because I'm trying to decide whether to buy that or the Apollo conversion gun. Is the overspray with the Binks gun acceptable? I've never heard of the Sharpe, but the $300 price is the same as Apollo. Having used both guns, do you think the $200 price difference for the Binks is worth it? If it's a better gun, is it because it gives you higher finish quality or just because it can withstand constant industrial use? I would be using it only intermittently myself.MARK RODERICK

1. 
   LMills | Sep 05, 1999 10:13pm | #4

   *I'm looking at the Binks guns also. Has anyone tried the M1-G gravity fed gun? The review in FWW was positive but I'd like to hear from some other people who have tried it. Also, which nozzle is preferable the 1.2 or the 1.4? I guess I'm not sure which one would be more preferable for general use. Can the gravity fed guns be hooked to a pot somehow?Did I understand someone to say that the Mach 1 gun could be converted from a cup gun to a gravity fed gun? Or can the M1-G be hooked to a pot?It seems the longer I try to find out info about the spray gun options, the more confusing it gets.Thanks for any info in advance.

1. 
   Mark_Roderick | Sep 06, 1999 06:18pm | #5

   *Join the club, my friend! Everything about this spray gun stuff can be extremely confusing.My understanding is that the gravity-fed gun cannot be hooked up to either a siphon cup or a pressure put. The regular Mach-1 gun, however, can be run off either a siphon cup or a pressure pot, but cannot be converted to a gravity gun.The gravity gun is supposed to be terrific, with one exception: it doesn't work upside down. So if you want to spray the insides or bottom of a piece you've got to move the piece rather than move the gun. For that reason, I'm buying the regular gun with a siphon cup.On the regular gun, the "standard" setup seems to be the 94 fluid needle and the 94P aircap. Binks advertises a system requiring only a 1.5HP compressor, but they're just using the same gun with a very small aircap, thereby compromising quality to some degree. I am told by the Binks technical guys that the 94P aircap should run fine on a 5HP compressor.Please share with us any additional information you find.

2. 
   Michael_Richwine | Sep 06, 1999 06:52pm | #6

   *I've been spraying professionally for decades, and in my experience, gravity guns are fine for body shops, but they just won't do the trick on furniture -- too many angles. The gun just won't spray where you need to.As for cup guns, a pressure feed gun is SO much more controllable and consistent than a siphon gun, plus it uses a lot less air since it doesn't have to rely on the venuri effect to draw paint up. It also works better with today's higher solids coatings. Plus, with a pressure cup gun, you can instantly switch over to a remote pot (2 Qt or 2 Gallon) and experience real flexibility. With no cup in the way, you can spray just about anywhere at any angle, and they're very little more trouble than a cup gun to clean up.Michael RRegarding Binks vs Sharpe, I think you get about what you pay for. They're both professional guns, but the Binks is better made and has more options. I'm satisfied with the Sharpe, but my next gun will be a Mach I.

3. 
   Mark_Roderick | Sep 07, 1999 05:11pm | #7

   *You obviously know much more about this subject than I do, and I want to clear up one point of confusion on my part.When I say a "siphon" gun, I'm talking about the Mach 1 gun with a quart cup attached directly underneath. The material is fed into the gun through a metal pipe, and a plastic tube runs from the gun to the cup to pressurize the cup.Is this what you're talking about with a "pressure cup" gun? If so, then we're on exactly the same page and I mis-spoke when I referred to this as a "siphon" gun. Assuming this is the case, what do you mean by a "siphon" gun? Is there no plastic tube pressurizing the cup?Have you ever used the Apollo conversion gun by any chance? I'd be interested to know your impression of the Apollo versus the Binks.Thanks.

4. 
   Michael_Richwine | Sep 07, 1999 06:35pm | #8

   *Binks makes two kinds of cup guns. The older model has a plastic hose coming from the area of the spray head to the cup. It uses atomizing air to pressurize the cup. This is sometimes called "pressure assist."The model 98-1141 has a pressure regulator at the base of the handle that allows you to set and maintain the exact pressure that you want in the cup. I find this very handy -- you can set the pressure low for stains, and raise it for latex and high solids conversion varnishes. This is the one you can hook up easily to a remote pot or pressure pot.The Sharpe 998HVLP is set up the same way. I haven't used the Apollo or Accuspray conversion guns. A lot of people like the Accuspray, but you couldn't pay me to use a screw-on cup. What a mess. Michael R

5. 
   Mark_Roderick | Sep 08, 1999 03:33am | #9

   *Yes, you're right. I called Binks and learned that they do, indeed, sell two kinds of setups. Both pressurize the material in the cup, but the outfit you mention allows this pressure, and thus the fluid flow, to be regulated. The other outfit has a constant pressure on the material and allows you to regulate the fluid by a separate knob. Apparently the former is considered superior to the latter.You can have both---the ability to regulate the pressure on the material AND the separate fluid adjustment knob---but this is considered unnecessary.The former setup is about $50 more.

6. 
   Doug_Johnson | Oct 01, 1999 09:41pm | #10

   *A Second Chance! I have been using the Devilbiss Finishline conversion gun. For the money (had the compressor) it was good if you ignored the fog cloud one generated. In other words I am not certain that the HVLP concept got me anywhere. Last week a large piece of walnut won an impact test with the gun. I have a second chance. Do I go with another (or similar) conversion gun, or do I buy one of the turbine jobs? The FHB issue on less than $500 units gave a good mark for the Wagner 2600. The Fuji unit can be had for $600 or so. Conversion gun, Wagner or Fuji? Or is it one of those things that $500 - $600 buys you a toy, and you need to drop $1200 to do it right? If thats the case I'll limp along with another DeVilbiss. Sugeestions of any kind are warmly welcomed. I have been using the DeVilbiss Fogger with (real) varnish, no water-based stuff. Outside chance of some finish work with latex paints, but the brunt of the work is varnish. Thanks. D.J.

7. 
   Mark_Roderick | Oct 01, 1999 10:42pm | #11

   *1. You should check with the material supplier and ask how to spray that particular material, i.e., how much to thin. You should also make sure you're using the right fluid needle and spray cap for the material.2. By all accounts the Fuji turbine is an excellent gun and can be purchased for less than $600. But every expert you talk to will say that if you've got a big enough compressor (5 hp) you should use a conversion gun rather than a turbine. Better atomization, better finish.3. I don't know the Devilbiss gun you're talking about, but the Binks Mach 1 for about $550 is supposed to be a great gun. By that I mean, it doesn't get any better.4. Fuji is supposed to have a conversion gun in April for around $275. If it lives up to the reputation of their turbine unit it should be top-notch. I'm hard-pressed to explain why it can be so much cheaper than Binks other than to say that Binks has that whole national distribution network and all those intermediaries, all of whom have to get a cut.Good luck.

8. 
   Barry_Dorans | Oct 02, 1999 02:20am | #12

   *I have the Fuji gun and like it, though I am a recreational sprayer only (occassional weekends). The one downside, for me, is that you adjust the width of the spray pattern by turning the ring on the front of the gun. Fuji comes with the siphon 1 quart cup but they also offer an optional 1 pint gravity feed cup. As to the toy issue, I don't think the Fuji is a toy, I started with the Campbell Hausfeld HVLP and that did seem to be much less durable.

9. 
   Michael_Richwine | Oct 02, 1999 10:29pm | #13

   *Doug,I'm not familiar with the DeVilbiss Finishline gin you mentioned, but I do know that HVLP just means less overspray, not none. I always taught my employees to get the fan and fluid flow right, then reduce the air pressure to where the atomization was just a bit too coarse, then raise the pressure to where the atomization was just good enough. That way you get good atomization with minimum overspray.I used a high end ($1000+) turbine unit for over a year, and it put down a nice finish within its limits, which were very narrow. You can't adjust the air pressure, which means that you either get excess fog or weak atomization, depending on your material. You don't have near as much control over your pattern -- if you try to set a narrow fan for shading or touchup, the air cap moves out so far you shut off the suction and don't get any fluid. You don't have enough pressure on your fluid to push heavier materials through the gun, etc., etc. None of the turbine guns actually has more than 6 PSI at the spray cap, where 10 PSI is the limit for HVLP. With a conversion gun, you can even cheat the air pressure above the HVLP limits if you have to -- it's just not technically HVLP any longer.There's no way in the world I'd go back to a turbine unit if I had an option. None of them come close to what a good conversion gun will do for a lot less money.

10. 
    Doug_Johnson | Oct 03, 1999 08:39am | #14

    *Thanks guys. The response is not what I expected, but it is a logical extension of what I had seen myself - good atomization and with a 5hp compressor you can blow your dog through the thing. Sounds like the Fuji is a good unit but the conversion gun is the way to go. I'll check out Binks. Thanks again. d.j.

11. 
    Skip_Clark | Oct 04, 1999 07:05am | #15

    *Michael where do I find the Binks?

12. 
    Michael_Richwine | Oct 06, 1999 05:53am | #16

    *Skip,Look in your local yellow pages under "Spray booths and Equipment" or the equivalent, or try http://www.binks.com to locate a distributor near you.

13. 
    Jessie_Cueto | Oct 07, 1999 03:31am | #17

    *Let me have a minute on the soap box,I also use guns every day for a living, and I prefer to use Graco and DeVilbiss. I have used the Binks Mach 1 gun and it could not handle our application. There is a seal at the needle (in front of the trigger) that kept giving out on us. And regardless of the body type (plastic or metal), this part was the same and gave out after 2-3 days of usage. I tried several Mach 1's to rule out a vendor defect but the result was the same. Now, I would like to say that I use spray guns more than most anybody would and the industrial use I give them may not represent your application. Having said that though, I did not feel the Binks Mach 1 had the beef. Another reason I don't care for Binks is that they have gone through some business instability issues and about a year or so ago, getting binks parts was a nightmare (again this may not be important to someone who doesn't use guns to this degree). They have improved but Graco is more reliable from where I stand.I use Graco Optimisers model M-1265(HVLP) and DeVilbiss model JGA-510 (HVLP). These guns atomize nicely and the guts last. I use these guns for 8-10 hours a day for 260 days a year. I won't say too much about the pumping system that I use because of the industrial application nature of my business. But.........In our low volume area, I use the above mentioned guns with pressure pots. For low volume work, I would reccommend a 2 quart pressure pot. I love the Graco model #235-117 series A. And if parts availability is not an issue, Binks has a nice 2 quart pot too, model #80-270. These small systems are made for industrial applications but would lend themselves nicely for smaller volume work. Assuming one has a compressor, you could set yourself up with a gun and a 2quart pot for about $600-$750. The advantage is that these systems will last a long time even under heavy use given good cleanup and maintenance routines. The performance out of one of these setups is impressive. You may have to go through an industrial distributor, as already mentioned the yellow pages is a good place to start.JC

14. 
    Michael_Richwine | Oct 07, 1999 08:26pm | #18

    *Jessie, That's the first knock I've heard on the Mach I from anybody (except for the supply problems which have pretty much been remedied). I used them for years pumping catalyzed finishes with never a problem except when one of the crew left material in the pot too long. What in the world were you putting through them? There are a number of materials that can be used for needle packing, and I really feel that their air caps are the best by a slight margin.The DeVilbiss guns are fine, too. Mostly a matter of which local vendor gives you the best support. I used Graco airless in a production environment for over 10 years, and their stuff was pretty much bullet proof, but the Croix turbine systems they tried to push weren't very good. No experience with the conversion guns, but anybody who paints all day gets to know them pretty quick, so I defer to your experience with them.

15. 
    Jessie_Cueto | Oct 08, 1999 02:03am | #19

    *Michael,I bought a few of the Featherlite Mach I's(pastic body) guns because of the lighter more ergonomic body style. I was actually impressed because it was a beautiful gun and yes it atomized nicely. We use recirculating lines and the guns hold solvent all day long. I used them to apply heavy pigmented solvent based stains and the guts gave out. I then tried the Mach I SL (metal body) and ran into the same problem. Other than that both guns were beautiful and nice to hold in the hand. When I approached a Binks rep at the '98 IWF show in Atlanta, he didn't give me any needle packing options for the for the gun.From my perspective, I lose money if I have to deal with these types of equipment performance issues. So I stick with the consistent performers. I am also a general contractor and when I have to do wood work requiring finish I also use the Graco and DeVilbiss setups I mentioned above just because they have proven themselves to me and I am loyal for that reason. In my opinion, my buck would go further with the equipment I mentioned. Maybe in time I'll give the Mach 1 another try.......It may be the Ford/Chevy syndrome.:-), Jessie