Replies

1. 
   Kevin | Sep 29, 2005 06:38pm | #1

   I've never finished a floor. So, I can't address that part of your questions. But, I do have a couple decades of experience painting and finishing other things...

   1) What does the sealer do?

   A sealer does two things. All sealers will seal the surface so that any finish put over them will build rather than soaking in. It works the same over bondo on a car fender as it does over wood on a table. Sanding sealers are designed to be sanded. With wood, even though it has already been prep-sanded there are still loose wood fibers that can mar a finish. So, sanding sealer is applied to lock the wood fibers in place. Then when you sand the sealer it knocks off any fibers that are sticking up, which helps produce a smooth final finish.

   It sounds to me like your floor finish guy is talking about a sanding sealer which is appropriately done after the prep sanding step.

   2) What to do about knot holes in the wood?

   I highly doubt that sealer or even the poly will fill knot holes of any size. Filling them will wood filler seems like a reasonable solution to me, as long as you use a type that won't shrink and crack as it dries. You can get a rough idea of what the filler will look like, colorwise, once it's finished by wiping over it with some mineral spirits. If it doesn't match close enough for your tastes then you'd probably have to find an appropriate tint to color it with. The manufactorer and/or the retailer should be able to assist with that.

   3) How many coats of poly do you recommend?

   I have no idea. Hopefully someone else here has direct experience with floor finishes and can give you informed feedback on this question.

1. 
   emaxxman | Sep 29, 2005 07:16pm | #2

   Thanks Kevin. Appreciate the info. Would you be able to provide any insight to my other question - had a disaster with staining the floor.http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-knots&msg=25862.1Even though I've decided to hire the work out this time, I would like to better understand what may have gone wrong in case I give it a try again in the future.Thanks again.

1. 
   Kevin | Sep 29, 2005 07:46pm | #3

   I remember your other question with the Minwax stain fiasco. Frankly, I'm mystified. Those oil stains should not dry as fast under normal conditions as it sounds like your's did.

   A few thoughts/questions...

   1. Did the wool applicator leave wool fibers behind?

   2. How old was the stain? In particular... how much exposure to air had it already had by the time you applied it? This is grasping at straws really. But, I'm wondering if it had already started the process of reacting to oxygen before you even applied it... possibly causing it to cure out much faster than you'd expected?

   3. Temperature. According to everything I've read, higher temperatures always speed up any chemical reaction. It is a known quantity that heating a drying oil will cause it to dry much faster than if it's not heated. I have no idea how hot the ambient temperature in your house would have had to be to cause the stain to dry as fast as it did. But... it's worth asking.

   4. Did you mix up the stain thoroughly before using it both times (stair rail and then the floor)? I ask because from your description it kinda sounds like the pigments had settled out or were otherwise in a higher concentration than Minwax intended when you applied it to the floor. That could explain it being very difficult to wipe as well as why it apparantly turned out much redder than the stair rail had. If that was what happened then it might not necessarily have dried any faster than before in terms of the oil reacting to oxygen. Rather, the oil might have soaked into the wood like it's supposed to, leaving an excess of pigment on the surface which definitely would not have been easy to wipe.

2. 
   gym | Sep 29, 2005 09:48pm | #4

   The time consuming answer to your knot problem is to get a hollow drill bit (they look like a round saw blade), cut out the knot then cut a piece of matching grain wood to fit the hole and glue in place.  Sand to adjust height.  Might look better than a solid color fill would.

3. 
   jako17 | Sep 30, 2005 04:33am | #5

   I recommend Not using a sealer that is dry in 15 mins as it is probably lacquer based.I feel that it is popular with flooring guys for speed but have GREAT reservations as to the bond with the poly. Secondly they make a filler with sawdust that they love to smear over the imperfections and nailheads.I find that I can lay a floor that has only a few nailheads showing ,those I address specifically.  Oil poly diluted with 10 % thinner ,light sand to denib and 3 or 4 coats of full strength applied with a lambswool applicator.All coats to be applied within the specified window.I have done several floors this way and never had any durability problems.

1. 
   emaxxman | Oct 12, 2005 09:31pm | #6

   So the floor guys were at my house last Friday to do the work. Pretty good work. One question though -The second coat has dried and hardened enough that I can touch and walk (with socks only) on it without leaving a mark. It's been about 2 days (today is Wednesday, 2nd coat was applied early Monday morning). The finish still feels slightly soft. It doesn't have that rock hard feel like a fully cured finish does.The finish feels slightly rough...like there are some dust nibs on it. You have to run your hand over it to notice...can't really tell by eye or with your feet.Will this roughness go away as it fully cures? I was planning on waiting a full 2 weeks before moving furniture back in the room.If I can't get the floor guy to come in a polish it smooth, what can I do to smooth it out so it's a glass smooth finish?What is the proper way to smooth this out? I'm thinking it's a quick sand with a very fine sandpaper or steel wool. Is that correct? Will another sanding remove the high gloss look of the finish? We wanted something more than semigloss and it would be a shame to remove it to get a smooth finish.When I did my handrail, I used a superfine synthetic abrasive pad (scotchbrite like)...that seemed to work well. However I'm reluctant to do that with the whole floor since it can't easily be repaired if I screw up.FYI: there were 2 coats of poly put down with a sanding in between. The 1st coat was a semigloss...the 2nd is a gloss finish.

1. 
   jako17 | Oct 13, 2005 02:22pm | #10

   Remember this is a floor most guests don't run their hands over it .If they do do kick their a** hard.Without seeing it you may be expecting too much but it is your call and you are paying so you may want to discuss it with the contractor.Sanding the floor with steel wool or sand paper is very likely to show up badly as a matt area.Certainly don't even think about trying it for a week or two.Finishes dry quickly but curing times are a lot longer.The floor will be outgassing solvents for a week or so (assuming solvent base poly)I am not a flooring contractor but take a look at this link and maybe ask around that forum remember that they are pros. http://www.floormasters.com

1. 
   Kevin | Oct 13, 2005 05:10pm | #11

   Finishes dry quickly but curing times are a lot longer.The floor will be outgassing solvents for a week or so (assuming solvent base poly)

   Excellent point. You're absolutely right about the cure times. However, even water-based poly has a cure time that is significantly longer than it's dry time. Fabulon (a great product, btw) water-based floor poly says right on the back of the can that "optimal cure" is 10 to 14 days. The initial dry time is typically much faster with water-based finishes. But, the cure time is similar for all finishes.

4. 
   Troy | Oct 13, 2005 12:11am | #7

   When I had my floors done the person did 4 coats of poly, the first was a sealer coat. Shop around I see a lot of peoples bids (I am a Realtor,only ruin wood on the weekends) for floor refinishing and the cheap ones often only do 2 coats. Also beware of the person doing the actual sanding if that person does not have a lot of experience with a floor sander they can make a real mess of the floor. Good luck.

5. 
   HowardAcheson | Oct 13, 2005 04:34am | #8

   Are you going to use an oil based poly or a waterborne poly?  In either event, never use a sanding sealer on a floor.  Sanding sealer is designed to be soft so it sands easily.  However, softness is not goodness on a floor.  It makes a poor base for the hard poly varnish.

   Many water-based poly finishes have a high pH level that can react with bare wood causing it to discolor. A waterborne sealer, seals the wood grain, preventing this discoloration (tanin reaction) between the wood and the waterborne poly.

   Any floor is fully sealed by applying a thinned coat of the final finish.  Thin 25-30% with mineral spirits for the first coat.  Let it fully dry and then sand with a 220 screen.  Then apply your final coats.

   Howie.........
1. 
   emaxxman | Oct 13, 2005 04:42am | #9

   The floor is done. The floor guy used straight poly for the sealer plus two topcoats. It's been 2 days since the last coat. It's dried to touch and I can walk on it without leaving marks. There are some dust nubs in it. How can I get rid of them?

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Oct 14, 2005 03:51pm | #12

   Let me recommend that while the floor seems dry and hard, poly takes 3-4 weeks to fully cure and develope full adhesion and scratch resistance.  I always suggest that furniture and feet stay off it for one week.  Then furniture can be replaced using small carpet pads under the feet.  At that time you can walk on it in stocking feet for the next three weeks.

   Treating it this way will ensure that the floor stays nice for the life of the finish.Howie.........