anybody know anything about deltas new hybrid saws?
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Replies
What's a 'hybrid' saw?
Malcolm
0.06% of the world's people are Kiwis
Hybrid saws are basically contractors saws with some cabinet characteristics. The trunnions are improved but still attached to the table, the base is enclosed and affords better dust collection, they may have better belts and controls than traditional contractors saws. See this page, about mid-way down for more details.
The new Craftsman saw is the only one I know of that doesn't have the trunnions attached to the table, which is a major plus. Don't know if it can outweight some other problems that have been reported with that saw though.
Delta's a late-comer to this class of saws. Biggest problem with them, IMHO, is their price which puts them right up in the Grizzly 1023S cabinet saw (3HP) price range. Especially during the summer sale -- they're only $23 apart, including shipping.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 5/26/2005 3:22 am ET by forestgirl
Thanks, that's great. Interestingly, when I was in the market for a saw about 12 months ago, I looked at a DeWalt 700 series saw (which I now know to be a hybrid saw), and if I could have sourced one in New Zealand, would probably now be an owner.
Once I'd made the decision to upgrade, however, I kept moving up the scale until sticker shock stopped me at a MiniMax. That's what I bought, and I love the machine.
MalcolmNew Zealand | New Thinking0.06% of the world's people are Kiwis
Hi Forestgirl - Considering the sheer numbers of the new Craftsman saws sold, I don't think there has been any significant systemic manfucturing issues that have surfaced yet. The vast majority of comments have been extremely positive, and the complaints I've read have been mostly random isolated issues. The most consistent issue I've heard of is with the Biesemeyer extension table which is an issue with any Uni or Delta contractor saw that sports the same table.
It appears to me that the defect ratio is proportionate to other manufacturers, and both Orion and Sears seem to have been responsive to those. So what problems are you hearing about?
Edited 5/26/2005 7:46 am ET by knot scott
The reason I asked is because they are priced at the high end of a contrator saw and the with the base enclosed it seems to eliminate what I consider to be the biggest drawback to a contrator saw. (dust) I currently use a Delta contrator saw and like it. It sounds like a good idea for someone in the market for a contrator level saw. Also I wonder if it's better to have the low end of something ( in this case a cabinet saw) Vs. the high end of something else (contrator saw). I've seen the sears but have been burnt by that brand before so... Anyway just wondering if anyone had any expierence with them. Thanks
Hi Scott - I was interested in the design and feature advantages of a hybrid and recently sold my venerable GI contractor saw for a Craftsman 22124. The GI was a great contractor saw, but it had the drawbacks that contractor saws have....DC isn't effective without some work, motor hangs out the back, and alignment can be cumbersome.
The 22124 cuts as well as the GI, has a comparable fence (Biesemeyer), fully enclosed cabinet, cabinet mounted trunnions, 44" wide cast iron surface, a good stock blade, extension table, fold up outfeed table, and a poly-v serpentine belt. I'd never consider it at $950....it'll do everything I need it to do, but it's no General 650 or even a Grizzly 1023 3hp cabinet saw. But it goes on sale regularly in the $800 range, sometimes < $700, and on rare occasions < $600 if you can stack the right promotions together....that's what prompted me. At $600-$800 it's a great saw that has many of the features and design elements I think we'll be seeing more of in the future. The fact that it's made by Orion and not Ryobi is comforting. It's a big departure from the Sears saws from 1997-2004. Orion was founded by former Delta employees and you'll find many Delta type elements in the saw...specifically the fence, throat plate, blade, switch, and possibly guard and splitter.....I've even heard rumor that Orion makes the new Delta 36-717 hybrid but am not certain. In this case, Sears and Orion have both been good to me, although I fully understand the apprehension. My first saw did have excessive arbor runout and vibration due to some problem. That's the first of that problem I've read about, and they exchanged it without hesitation (they actually did the swap). Other minor issues I've read about are some shipping damage and the Biese extension table being warped....nothing unusual for big machinery. IMO, this tool is worth a look and is worthy of evaluation on it's own merits regardless of the name plate.....Sears is just a retailer.
The new Delta and GI hybrids appear to have some design features that the earlier Jet Supersaw and DeWalt 746 lacked....specifically a fully enclosed base and a top shelf fence like a Biese. Those may be worthy of a look too, but expect to pay $850 and up. I'd have no qualms picking up a Shop Fox or Grizzly 1023SL cabinet saw in the $1000 range....there are many satisfied owners, but you will need 220v, whereas the hybrids were designed to run on a standard 110v circuit, but can be converted to 220v easily.
Good luck with your decision and let us know what you get!
Edited 5/26/2005 10:36 am ET by knot scott
FYI
The Grizzly 1023 is available in 110 VAC but it's only a 2 HP. I have the 220 VAC version and I'm very happy with it.
Enjoy
Hi, I'm Len and I'm a Toolaholic...
"FYIThe Grizzly 1023 is available in 110 VAC but it's only a 2 HP. I have the 220 VAC version and I'm very happy with it."Hi Len - That 2hp Griz motor draws 24 amps @ 110v and won't run on a standard 15-20 amp 110v circuit...it needs a 30amp circuit for 110v which typically requires electrical work. If you're going to do some wiring work, you might as well wire for 220v and get the 3hp for the same price IMO.Scott
"I have the 220 VAC version and I'm very happy with it." Might want to read that quote again, KS. Looks like Len's all set with 220V.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Scott,
Agreed. I already have a 220 version. It doesn't really make sense to buy a 110 version if you need to have electrical work done.
I guess I misunderstood what you were saying.
"I'd have no qualms picking up a Shop Fox or Grizzly 1023SL cabinet saw in the $1000 range....there are many satisfied owners, but you will need 220v, whereas the hybrids were designed to run on a standard 110v circuit, but can be converted to 220v easily. "
It sounded like you weren't aware there was a 110 version. BTW. The 110 version is more expensive. Go figure...
Have a good one.Hi, I'm Len and I'm a Toolaholic...
"Also I wonder if it's better to have the low end of something ..." In this particular instance, that's not really the way it shakes out. The 1023S has proven itself as a quality cabinet saw. The main thing you give up at that price point is 5" of rip capacity, and if you go for the long fence rails you're getting up there in price.
I'm not trying to talk you into the 1023, just pointing out what they compete against (for me) pricewise. I think you get much, much more for the money with the 1023S or SL. The way the motor and trunnion assembly is mounted in a cabinet saw yields much greater stability, accuracy and way easier adjusting down the road. Then there's the 3HP motor. Re: dust collection, I haven't heard about the Delta, it being so new, but reports on most of the other hybrids seem to indicate that while they're better than a contractors saw, they don't come close to a cabinet saw.
The one caveat about the 1023 series, for those who are interested, is (IMHO) the Z version has a different fence, possibly not as good as the Bies clone on the regular version.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Delta was the pioneer of hybrid saws, not a late comer. Their 1998-1999 Industrial Machinery Cat. on page A-11 lists the Delta 10" tilting arbor saw(model # 36-755). The inner workings look like the Jet hybrid. This is not the first thing Jet has copied from Delta. This saw was a contractors saw in disguise, just like the current Jet hybrid. I have both a Delta/ Rockwell contractors saw and a Uni in my shop. If I was buying new today; I probably buy the Bridgewood saw or Grizzly 1023. The Bridgewood takes all the best features of the PM 66, Uni, General and rolls them into one package. Wilke sells all four lines of saws. At commercial shows they have then side by side with the tops removed, so you can see the features of each. Very impressive!
What's a 'hybrid' saw?
I think it is like the saw... I REALLY wanted.. but could not afford so I got the other one I looked at first!
What's a 'hybrid' saw?
A 'hybrid' saw is sort of a marketing thing they can build cheeper.. I think?
0.06% of the world's people are Kiwis and the other 99.somethin' % are in ASIA!
0.06% of the world's people are Kiwis and the other 99.somethin' % are in ASIA!
... and they're coming our way!
New Zealand | New Thinking0.06% of the world's people are Kiwis
Scott-
Looks like you raised a ton of issues and got folks commenting on everything but your question. Sorry- i can not help either. In fact I did not know Delta offered a hybrid. But it could be a spinoff from DeWalt's since Black Decker now owns both brands.
Thank you,
The Great Marko
Hi Marko - I don't know if B&D had much influence on the Delta hybrid or not. It doesn't share much lineage with the DW746. The release of the Delta has been pushed back quite a ways from it's anticipated launch, but it's on their website with three different fence options...the Biese, Unifence, and the T2. The DW and Delta both have beefed up contractor style trunnions that mount from the table top, but the DW has a cast dust shrowd that connects front and back as far as I know, whereas the Delta has oversized connecting rods. The enclosures are different too...the DW is an open bottom 3/4 cabinet, the Delta is a full enclosure. The Delta comes with cast iron wings...the 746 has steel wings stock...CI is an option, as is a proprietary sliding miter table. The DW's fence is proprietary too, and has gotten minor criticism when compared to other fences on saws in this price range. All in all I think the hybrids and lighter duty cabinet saws are the wave of the future. Contractor saws are no longer used as portables much, and the concept of having their motors hanging out the back for quick removal is really obsolete as far as their original intended use goes. The evolution of portable jobsite saws has filled that niche and most CS are used by small shops as a stationary saw. Frankly I'm surprised it's taken this long for hybrids to catch on.
I'm a guy who has lived with a Ryobi BT 3000 for the last 13 years with no complaints.That saw has done every thing I asked of it with flying colors. That said, I have lusted for a saw with standard miter gauge grooves in a cast iron wing.
After laying my hands on everything in my nearby universe, I bought the DeWalt 746 XS from Amazon last month. Man, is it SU-WEET. Quiet, vibration free, super trick miter gage, a nice cast iron wing, and a sliding table that makes my BT3K look like a toy.
Not even mentioned in the literature, is the motor is rated 110/220 so when we build our next house I can cut off the plug and wire this puppy for 220 and go for it.
Dust collection is good, buy maybe not as good as a full cabinet saw. But IMO that cast iron sliding table and cast iron wing on the other side fully compensate.
If you are considering a hybrid check this one out. It's the last table saw I will ever own.
One caveat. DO NOT confuse this baby with a portabe contractors saw. Fully assembled, mine hits 400lb on the Fairbanks.
Chris
Where can I find an on-line reference to this saw, Chris?
MalcolmNew Zealand | New Thinking0.06% of the world's people are Kiwis
Malcom,
This combo package, known as the Dewalt 746XS, is available only from Amazon.com. Look under stationary table saws.
Chris
Scott,
This will be a long winded, saying sorry up front.
Everything about the Delta hybrid I have seen and read says it's nearly a carbon copy of the Craftsman saw, except it's table still adjusted by the trunnons. It is made by the same company Orion that the Sears is. They look identical in pics.
I own the 22124 and have been very happy with it.
I had an aversion to buying Sears stuff myself, but in this case I'm glad I went with it. There ARE some things about buying from Sears that tops the rest of them. You have 30 days to decide yes or no. They deliver. They have parts. They have a exten warr plan for 5 yrs for $75 that they come to your place to fix/check up. The EW plan allows for one checkup per year, every year you have the plan. If they have to come 3 times to repair during that 5 yrs, the 4th time they have to come, they bring a new saw to you. This is nice, them coming to your place, considering the saw is over 400lbs.
I own 2 Griz tools. The basic 6in jointr/handwheels and the G0555 BS. It's yours when you buy it. Add $50 to $150 for shipping. They're good for the repairs that 1st year, as long as it's something you want to fix yourself when they send you the parts. If it's something you do not want to fix or can't do, you ship it back to them. This would be true of most big tools you buy from anyone.
Now having said all that, do I think the Sears saw is the best, not by a long shot. IMHO it's as good or better than any hybrid/cont saw. It's not in the ballpark with any cab saw. It was never supposed to be. It's a step up (at least for me) from a con saw. Gives you some benefits of a cab saw with a few bells and whistles thrown in.
I could not buy a top of the line cab saw for what I have invested in all my stationary tools. But for me what I have works fine. I can do anything that needs to be done and that's how I buy my tools. I look for something that will give me good service and fit my budget as most of us do.
So I'll stop now before the mods say your talking too much.
Good luck and let us know what you get. And I know you'll be happy with whatever it is.
Jimmy
as always I wish you enough
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