I realize the question “what is the best table saw” must come up tiringly frequently here but I don’t see another post addressing this.
I was leaning towards the DeWalt DW746 with Beisemeyer 30″ commercial fence and was considering the sliding table option – but have heard complaints -including flimsy sliding table, non-flat tops -a local warehouse here in Northern California has stopped stocking them because they have so many returns.
I read on another hybrid the Jet 708777K/JWSS-10SPF Supersaw complaints on the miter gauge not staying in alignment, poor dust collection, and flimsy sliding table that might be okay with the cast wing?, poor paint finish..
Then there is the Delta 36-717 hybrid which I know nothing about yet. And I would not really even consider anything from Craftsman, Ryobi etc.
As build quality is important to me and money is not a central issue am I wasting my time looking at hybrids? Should I be looking at a 240V cabinet saw such as the Delta Unisaw or other mid-level cabinet saw?
If you have looked into this and have been through this process yourself I would appreciate your input. At this point I’m wondering if a basic cabinet saw with no bells or whistles or sliding table might be a better long term choice. Some folk out there will go through several saws in a lifetime but as a hobbyist I only expect to buy one of these!
Replies
First off, a 110v, 1.5 -1.75hp hybrid saw isn't even comparable to a 3-5hp cabinet saw, not even close. If you have the money and the 220v power for a cabinet saw, get one, the Uni saw is a great saw. If you are really looking for a hybrid saw, look at every review you can find about them, there are plenty of reviews to read. Don't limit yourself to reading only about the saw's you think you are interested in, read the reviews about every saw on the market, you just could be surprised that a particular brand has a very good product. I'm not a brand name loyal person as some are, I buy the best tool I can and the only way to do that is by keeping an open mind to every tool on the market.
Before I bought my table saw, I read nearly 30 reviews on hybrid table saws. What I noticed after about the 15th review was the consistencies in the strengths and weaknesses of each saw the reviewers wrote about, and with that, I was able to make my decision.
Because I didn't have 220 power and the saw needed to be moved every day because of being in the garage, I bought the Craftsman 22124 (also with the 30" biesmyer fence) and I'm very happy with it. I check the adjustments about once per month because it gets moved around so much (on a rolling base) but seldom do I need to actually make adjustments to it. I primarily make cabinets of which the thickest stock is rarely more than 3/4 hardwood ply, the 1.75hp (I now have 220v power for the saw)the saw has enough power for what I ask of it. You should also know that a 110v power supply will limit your motor to max out at about 1.5hp or less, regardless of the power rating of the motor.
Edited 4/2/2006 12:54 am ET by SantaBarbaraSawDust
Edited 4/2/2006 12:57 am ET by SantaBarbaraSawDust
Edited 4/2/2006 11:24 am ET by SantaBarbaraSawDust
The amount of study or reading needed to choose a table saw has surprised me. I was way too fast in starting to narrow the search and appreciate your points particularly about keeping an open mind.
A regular cabinet saw is starting to look like a far better deal ~thanks.
My old craftsman saw recently died so I am in the market for a tablesaw and have been studying the Grizzly saws with interest. They produce a new hybrid saw with 2hp for about 700 and a cabinet saw, 3hp with an extended cast iron wing that can accept a router for about $1000. This seems like a great value to me. I am somewhat alarmed that nobody mentioned any Grizzly saws in any of the posts. Makes me wonder why, perhaps because nobody considers them worth? Anyway I wanted to post this to get some feedback on these saws. Its tough to make a good decision when you can't use the saw beforehand.
I agree. I emailed them and, unfortunately, you can't upgrade to a better fence unless you buy another fence outright. I don't know how good that (or any of their) fences are, but I thought I would call that out.
I am in a similar boat as RJTravis. I have an old Craftsman table saw that I inherited from my father when he bought his Unisaw about 20 years go. The Craftsman was made in the early 60s and is, in my view a quality piece of gear.But it's an open bottomed "contractor's" saw. Dust collection is nearly impossible because of the completely open design of the casing. The table is cast iron and I have the wings on it as well (cast iron web). it's only a 1.5hp saw and runs on 110 volts. Also the arbor is showing signs of significant runout (about .040") and I just can't get good straight cuts with it anymore.I started up a speaker cabinet business last year so I make a LOT of sawdust, now. Dust collection (especially for cutting the MDF parts) is a major concern for me. I wear a mask and a face shield when I'm cutting. But it's not enough. I have a Delta shop air filter and I have a 1 micron bag on my dust collector (Delta 36-760). I need something that I can collect the dust from efficiently and not have to spend two hours a day cleaning up sawdust in the shop.So, I need a new TS. I've been looking at the Delta 36-717 (I prefer the Beisemeyer fence if I can get one) and the new Grizzly G0478. They are both enclosed cabinets making dust collection easier. Both are 110v (I don't have 230 available without a rather large expense). I would probably go for the Grizzly G1023SL except for the 230V problem.I know Jet makes a contractor's saw that has a semi closed cabinet and a dust port on the bottom. But I've not been able to find out much about that saw and really can find no reviews on any other hybrid saws.My budget is relatively small (about $1000). I'll probably have to upgrade in a couple of years. So durability isn't as big an issue as precision and the ability to add gewgaws to it as I can afford them. But I need a TS I can afford now that is flexible, fairly precise and can grow with my business (up to a point).Thanks from a noob poster!
FYI... Until you get your new saw you might try this if you havent already......When I had a contractor saw in my shop I cut a 1/4 inch pc. of ply to fit under the saw between the legs. I waxed the side facing up real well and placed it at a steep angle towards my dust collector. You can dril and attach with sheet metal screws. Then wrap canvas around the base of the cabinet where the legs attach down to the floor of the shop. You can attach the canvas numerous ways. Velcro, straps from a ratchating glue band etc. Then, if you want to get a little more fancy...and this works much better this way...is to make a 12"-16" 'donut' with the inside diameter being the size of your dust hose or plastic insert that attaches to the dust collector hose. Place the donut inside the canvas and attach with silicone caulking etc. where it meets the upper side edge (the downward side) of the plwood and let dry. Then cut the inner diameter hole of the donut and install hose or plastic attachment pc. I found that it helps to weigh down the bottom pc. of canvas where it lays onto the floor so you don't loose suction. MDF dust is bad.... anything you can do to mitigate it is for the good. You sound like you're already doing a lot. I hope this helps you or others with this problem....
Steve
Thanks for the suggestions, Steve.A couple of years ago I made a back plate for the saw as well as a bottom plate shaped like an inverted pyramid. The back plate is grooved for the trunion (I had to take the motor off to fit it) and the belt fits through a slot in that plate. The belt flaps so much now because of the worn arbor that I had to make the hole pretty big to keep from destroying the belt.I bought a 4 inch " dust port" for the bottom of the saw and attached that to the bottom of the inverted pyramid for my dust collector. I've tried also closing up other holes with rubber from an old inner tube with holes and/or slots cut in them. That helps. I actually get some suction, now. (not a lot but some). I don't get sawdust on the floor anymore from the bottom of the saw (although the belt throws a bit out the back). But it still throws a good bit into the air topside. Especially with MDF since it turns to dust.Although dust collection is a big concern, the main reason for replacing that saw is that the arbor is just worn out. Even with new bearings it has too much runout. I tried tilting it about an inch and half to the left but that didn't help. It also made the wood try to slide off the left side. =8^O
RJTRAVIS:
Because this Grizzly model wasn't around when I was going thorough the process of choosing a saw, I don't know much, if anything about them. I will say this however, when I decided on the saw to buy, at least 60% of the reason I bought the Craftsman 22124 was because it had the best fence available in that price range. I could justify in buying a table saw which was $1,000 after buying blades, dado set, rolling stand and a few other extras, but no more at the time.
For what it's worth, if two saws are equal in pluses and minuses on your check list, take the saw with the best fence. If they both use the same fence, choose the saw with the better designed trunions and table and of course, the size/quality of motor. As for all the rest of the saw, if you find you want to upgrade your saw in the future, it's easy and inexpensive to do.
TerrySanta Barbara,CA
Edited 4/12/2006 7:04 pm ET by SantaBarbaraSawDust
Have you tried any woodworking groups/clubs in your area. This can be a great way to check out saws first hand. Another is night classes offered by High School, Colleges and places like Woodcraft which offer hands on classes.
Just a thought....hope this helps
Steve
Gary, I've had several table saws including a 1939 Delta ! It had a table that raised and lowered instead of the bade...also for mitre cuts the table tilted! I'm still kicking myself in the butt for selling it.... My latest saw I have and use it daily is a 3 Hp. Delta (Cab.) Unisaw with the 50" Bisemeyer fence. I had the Unifence on another table saw and it worked well but we found that we had to tune/align it on a somewhat regular basis. The Beismeyer has been set once when we set it up 3 + yrs. ago. I design and build custom furniture and do a lot with exotic woods. The 3 hp. works very well and has never bogged down but at times I wish I would have spent the extra couple of $$ and went for the 5Hp. No special reason other than knowing that the extra power is there and possibly know the 3Hp. might not work as hard. Depending on what your work & future work will intale I would Definitely go with the cabinet type saws unless your taking it to the job sites. Even a hobbyist will enjoy this saw greatly and they're still made in the USA. Another saw that rates very well and should look into is the Canadian made General. Don't confuse this with the General Int. brand. The Gn. Int. brand are made over seas and I do not know that much about them other than they're not 1/2 the saw as the Canada made. That was my pick but at the time did not have the extra$$ for it. A Very well made and Heavy saw. The cabinet saw you choose to purchase you can put an after market sliding cross cut table on to it such as a Excalibur etc. I have no expiernce regarding the Excalibur or other after market sliding/cross cut since we use a shop made sled instead... IF you have any more questions please feel free to ask.... I Hope this has helped a little.....N Good Luck!
I've taken a quick look at http://www.general.ca and will definitely definitely look further into it. The Excalibur appears to be a particularly fine sliding table with a price to match ... I just might just go with the shop made sled you mentioned and see how that goes first! The beisemeyer fence does sound way too good to pass on.
~thank you for the response
Gary,
If you want a TS with a real sliding table for cross cutting and sheet good handling, you have to buy a European saw. I too looked at the Jet and Dewalt hybrids a year ago, when I wanted to change my saw. It was obvious that their sliding table add-ons were a poor compromise and far from adequate. It seems they've merely paid lip service to the sliding table design.
One day Americam TS manufacturers will update that ancient cabinet saw design of theirs and join the modern world....but not yet, it seems. Perhaps Americans ought to start a "Real TS" movement, a bit like the "real ale" and "real bread" campaigns that happened in Britain a decade or so ago. These campaigns resulted in vast changes to those industries, which had become very complacent indeed and were selling micturate as beer and polystyrene as bread. Now the beer is most quaffable; and the bread has plenty of aggregate in it, for not just taste but also healthy nether regions.
Lataxe
That was most eloquently and indeed accurately put, Sire.
The reference to bread had me roaring with laughter, as in my mind "aggregate" is a word often used synonymously with "concrete"....
Nevertheless, one is still left wondering why the American bretheren have not , to this day, come up with a sliding table saw comparable to certain European models.Philip Marcou
P,
I believe that in the US thay have lobbyists, who persuade the powers-that-be of the causes (good and bad) their clients pursue. When I am old and not safe to operate powerful machinery in the shed, I may seek a lobbyists job, if The American Woodworkers Association will commission me to persuade The Senate to make sliding tables and riving knives compulsory.
I will also lobby for compulsory planer-thicknessers and an end to imperial measurement (which must surely be anti-American, being as how they are no longer a mere colony of the Late Emperor, George).
Of course, without the need to store all those tablesaw jigs and carriages (not needed with real saws) it will be impossible to justify those shops that are bigger than my whole house.
Lataxe
"As build quality is important to me and money is not a central issue am I wasting my time looking at hybrids? Should I be looking at a 240V cabinet saw such as the Delta Unisaw or other mid-level cabinet saw?"
Yes, IMO. And that comes from a very happy hybrid owner. I think hybrids are terrific for home shop use as an alternative to a traditional contractor saw. They have several inherent design advantages over them.
While all 3 of these classes of saw is plenty capable for home shop use, a full 3-5hp cabinet saw has significant advantages over a hybrid too. In addition to more power, they're just a more robust machine, and few can put up much of an argument against that. The typical downsides are electrical requirements and additional cost. If those don't deter you, grab a nice cabinet saw and never second guess the decision.
Scotty - thanks I can see that while my needs would be more that met by something less than a full cabinet saw - in particular a hybrid - and I would get a kick out of having a full cabinet saw. Which hybrid do you have? it seems everyone of them has some drawback, but perhaps the drawback is manageable or upgradeable.
I am leaning towards a Delta 3hp left tilt with 30" Biesemeyer and a Bench Dog Promax cast iron router table -assuming these are compatible.
I've had the 22124 for nearly a year. It's performed flawlessly, I enjoy the way it feels, and it's super easy to align.
http://www.epinions.com/content_184778395268
Enjoy your cabinet saw. Buy the one that makes your heart race.
Edited 4/3/2006 8:55 am ET by scotty
If your interested... I have the General 50-220 hybrid. Great saw. I've been using it for just over a year now. I even cut some 8/4 hard maple on it with no problem.
Guess I might be one of the few using a Powermatic 64A, which is I think still considered a "contractor" saw, with a 50" rip capability. I've used it for 6 or 7 years now without a problem. The 1.5HP motor occasionally slows down my work, but not for thicknesses up to 4/4. And that's with normal width saw blades. When purchased, I was working on a barn's wooden floor and didn't think the joists were adequate for the heavier cabinet saws. I also didn't have 220V available.
The only frustration has been dust collection - don't have any knowledge of "hybrid" saws, but contractor saws just aren't as tight as cabinet saws.
Now that there are at least 2 "standard" brand saws with true riving knife design (Sawstop and Powermatic 2000) I wouldn't consider buying the traditional American design (without the riving knife).
And I'd have to find a strong reason not to choose the added safety of the Sawstop.
Everyone has their opinion, which I'm not going to debate. This is just my 2 cents.
I did look at the sawstop, at $2700 it is about $1200 more than a Unisaw with 30" Biesemeyer.
I haven't looked at all the various riving knife options but will take this safety concern into account - thank you for this input
You're right on the price, but I'm four months into six months to a year of rehab due to a stupid mistake I made with my Unisaw. If I'd had a SawStop, I'd have ruined a blade and a brake, but that $180 or so would have saved me a moderately serious injury.
Of course, you may be much smarter than me and not make my stupid mistake (really, not many people would do the dumb thing I did)... but if I had my purchase to make over again, I think I would reconsider the extra $$ for the SawStop.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
---ouch--- how much is a body part worth. My second thought is how much more dangerous driving a car is.
Another perspective - as a hobbiest maybe I should consider the Sawstop contractors saw for $799. http://www.sawstop.com/products-contractor-saw-pricing.htm Interesting this link to the price doesn't seem to be linked from within their site. With 2 cast wings, their 36" fence and rails plus a spare brake cartridge we are looking at around $1330
Wonder what my wife would say ...... as if I don't know!
I think the issue is to mitigate the daily risks we take in things we enjoy to do, cutting wood, and things we must do such as driving to work. If I can limit my risk at cutting wood, than I do so within reason. To me an extra $1,200 to possibly prevent to less digits is reasonable. Especially spreading out $1,200 cost over 20-30 years.
Not to mention, the extra cost is buying you a machine which is more substantial than the so called gold standards, General Canada, and Powermatic 66. With that said, yes you can always counter with Sawstop's lack of a track record. But, 2 1/2 years of Sawstop's presence in government agencies, universities, high schools, and residential users, I have yet to hear of any significantly negative comments.
Sawstop's table top micro adjusting alignment, relative to miter slot and blade, is simple and cleverly designed.
I believe, if memory serves me correctly, most, if not all, hybrid saw tilting mechanism is far less accurate compared to most cabinet saws' tilting mechanism. Something about the design of the hybrid, due to how the motor is attached to the tilting mechanism, causes distortions to the blades tilt.
Cheers
The better than gold standards is quite a carrot. And I agree on any digit being worth more than $1200.
At this point my quandary is sawstop versus cabinet saw. I wonder if a hobbyist's needs could be met by the upcoming sawstop contractor's saw, or maybe I should go with the Unisaw, or maybe I should enole my wife in the sawstop cabinet saw
How is it that Sawstop have not been unsuccessful in marketing to other manufacturers?
'Cheers' is an expression from part of the planet I was raised in. I'm curious about this plus your name 'fingerlesshack'
Don't be persuaded by the argument from the real experienced users. " I've been cutting wood straight from the womb and never have done something stupid or accidentally. I am always safe and smart, blah, blah..." This comment reminds me of the saying I heard growing up. What do you call a woman who practices safe sex and the rhythm method?... a pregnant teenager or mother.
I just would hate to be in the shoes of rehab. Unisaw owner, or should I say former Unisaw owner. Regret is a hard pill to swallow. Please, don't take this the wrong way; I am not making light of his accident. Use it as a learning experience for others benefit.
I see at least three possible scenarios.
1. Don't purchase Sawstop. And cross your two fingers just before each cut, praying you will have usage of your two fingers for the next cut's ritual.
2. Buy a nice cabinet saw and never run into a fingerless accident; but, you will always be dogged in the back of your mind. I think I can be safer.
3. Buy Sawstop cabinet saw and be fortunate enough to have never required the safety backup-net system. But, despite this, I find it hard to believe you will be kicking yourself. And saying, I shouldn't have bought the best.
I believe your question was, how is it Sawstop has not been successful in marketing to other manufacturers? My guess is money. I don't say this smugly. I understand manufacturers decision and could see myself making the same decision... if in their shoes too. Their current manufacturing process would have to be totally revamped... saw would require considerable reengineering. Sawstop's braking system, when activated, puts extreme stresses on the table saw. My guess is even the to-date known gold standards could not repeatedly with stand such stresses. The arbors would eventually bend and maybe on the first braking activation.
No. I am not from down-under nor a Brit... please no disrespect intended.
fingerlesshack is a user name; I adopted, when I first started playing with woodworking and getting familiar with woodworking power equipment. I still have all my fingers, and plan to keep them. This is why I purchased a Sawstop. However, I am still a hack and probably always will be. Everything is relative.
PS, if you do buy the Sawstop cabinet saw, I would consider passing on the rails and fence they offer. I was not as impressed with them as I was with the saw. I am considering buying the LS Incra fence system for mine. This opinion is not based on emperical data or experience. I just thought that the Sawstop standard/offered fence had a little to much flex at the outfeed end. And for almost the same price you can get the Incra.
And yes to all you nay sayers, I am quite aware that Sawstop is not a panacea.
Just back from the woodworking show in Sacramento I was disapointed that Sawstop were not there. I asked Delta about the sawstop brake they said that they were approached by Sawstop and they did run tests. They found that it was "not 100% reliable", that it would operate sometimes when it should not for example on timber with high moisture content, and that it represented a huge liability to them. He added that it placed large stresses on the table saw.
I imagine that the liability problem is what if the brake does not operate when it should. Perhaps this and the stresses involved are the reasons why TS manufacturers have not all jumped on this.
At the same woodworking shop I saw a rather interesting set of push blocks in action -the GRR-Ripper by Micro Jig that I expect does a pretty good job of making any TS safer http://www.mv.com/users/besposito/woodworking/gripper.html
Another side thought on the Sawstop - the hotdog nick occurs at a 1-foot per sec feed rate, a fairly fast feed rate for most wood. Of accidents that do occur how many occur when someone contacts a blade under normal feed conditions? I wonder if more accidents occur when slipping due to managing say awkward piece of wood. 1/200th of second the time it takes for the blade to stop is about 1/16" at 1fps. An object (or hand?) simply dropped from 18" above the table will accelerate due to gravity to about 15fps -which is an inch. I imagine even higher speed accidents are not uncommon.
Thanks for the thoughts on the Sawstop fence, it seems that if I did go with this TS I would have to purchase sight unseen. I looked at the Delta Unifence today, and I figure it is a better fence for hobbiest use than the Biesemeyer. The extruded fence can rotate to offer a low profile edge nearest the blade plus it can be slid back so that the end of the fence stops before the start of the blade.
I guess I have never viewed it as normal conditions when one cuts off fingers; but, I am aware of your point. To which, I suggest you go to:
http://www.sawstop.com/why-sawstop-testimonials.htm
Maybe these testimonials fall into the category of normal circumstances, which then would appear to indeed occur. But then again, this all could be a conspiracy, in regards to all the testimonials being fabricated.
I am also aware of the wet wood problem. According to Sawstop manual the machine will not trigger brake, but should shut down. Wether false braking was problematic with older circuitry smarts or currently is buggy is not certain to me. If this is big concern, I would email Sawstop with question(s). My experience with their support has been excellent to date. This problem pertains to cutting wet pressure treated wood. But, wet wood was a none issue for me. Personally, I would never subject any cabinet saw to such abuse. Why would I want all that dampness dispersed throughout my expensive equipment? Rust never sleeps! Cutting wet wood is for your thrasher equipment, not your fine equipment. I think the Delta reps comments are a bit bias and extreme, "represented a huge liability to them." Why would a false trigger, caused by wet wood cutting, be a huge liability? No bodily harm occurs. Yes new brake and blade would be required, but this hardly qualifies as huge liability. Is this not the same so called liability that Sawstop currently assumes? Sawstop has been known to replace, free of charge, brakes which were destroyed by customer-alleged false triggers. Despite the fact that further investigation hinted of improper use.
Yes I like the GRR-Ripper by Micro Jig. I bought two a year ago at last woodworking show... mainly because my previous cab. saw was forcing me to do stupid things... damn splitter and guard were getting in the way to often and difficult to remove and reattach. But, I still think Gripper is well worth the money to keep in your arsenal of woodworking weapons. I have nothing but good things to say about the Gripper.
Now that I got all that out of the way, Unisaw is a fine machine and well priced. If Unisaw were the machine I was leaning towards, I would seriously look at the General Canada, Powermatic 66, and Powermatic 2000. Yes, in latter stated order. I base this on seeing all machines, in person, but not having used the machines. And also based on all I have been able to mine from multiple discussion groups.
How do you like this expression... cheers amigo.
My point on the Sawstop brake is that I imagine that most people don't feed their fingers with the wood into the blade. Rather, I speculate that (many?) accidents are are from slipping or dropping i.e. at considerably higher speeds than a normal feed rate of say up to 1 foot per second. I do think every table saw, band saw etc should have one, that it should be mandatory for schools. But I imagine that most accidents on a sawstop would be more than a just nick.
The liability issue I think is only the concern that 'what if the brake does not work?' I expect that between this and the costs associated with strengthening the trunion assembly are the reasons why as far as I know no other manufacturer has taken it on board?
The only thing stopping me is the cost, or to be precise my wife's concern over the cost, she has given me a $2000 budget! I can get a refurbished Unisaw with 50" Biesemeyer, a mobile base a pair of the Grippers, plus a Delta 50-760 dust collector all delivered to my shop for this amount. The Sawstop version of this is $4000 excluding taxes and delivery. I have no idea what the delivery.
I did look briefly at the Canadian General and Powermatics however with my realtively untrained eye and the few minutes I had I could not really discern any practical difference?
Cheers and thanks -I appreciate the dialog which is very helpful in working through this process
I understand budgets enforced by the better half. Peace and tranquility will keep you young. Many times the women know what they are talking about. Unfortunately, sometimes I learn this the hard way.
In regards to rails and fences, if you like, check out Wood magazine, issue 155, May 2004. They reviewed quite a few including Unifence. The stated low point, negative comment, of the Unifence, is as follows, "Face most be removed and reinstalled on right side of body to use the fence on the left side of the blade." Mind you if this fence comes bundled with your purchase, I would not fret on bit. Sounds like it is a good solid fence for OME (sorry, original manufacture equipment).
They rated Biesemeyer "Top Tool" and Vega as "Top Value"... some of their negative comments on Incra LS32 are out of date, or incorrect to date.
Cheers and nothing but the best with your future purchase!
It doesn't seem that an object dropped from 18" could reach 15 fps. At the commonly cited rate of 32 fps per second, it would take almost half a second to attain 15 fps. If it was simply dropped, the initial speed is zero, and the average speed over that time of fall is roughly 7.5 fps. Multiply this by almost .5 s, and the distance fallen would be at least 3 feet.
JIm
Jim you are quite right<!----><!----><!---->
From http://www.ajdesigner.com/phpprojectilemotion/vertical_velocity_equation.php <!----><!---->
An object dropped will travel 18” in 0.3seconds due to 9.81m/s2 gravity. At this time velocity will be 2.93m/s =9.6feet/second not 15.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
An object traveling at this speed will do close to 3/4" of damage, assuming that most of the actual blade stopping occurs in the last 1/10th of the total time to stop. This appears to be enough to still loose a finger. The point I was making is that it appears there is still AMPLE reason to be concerned about safety with a Sawstop saw.
Cheers
Gary
Hey Gary... I see from one of your post that you went to the Sacramento Wood Show this last weekend. I too went there . You must live close by...I'm from Woodland where do you live? Did you see that TWC was not at the show? They're a HUGE outfit $$$ and I was told they folded.
One of the things I see in your posts and others is fences... As I stated before, I really would stay away from the Unifence. Hobbiest or not...They're accurate but they do not stay accurate thus having to adjust quite often. Biesemeyer is deffinately the much better fence...and I've used several different ones in my shop. Just FYI.....
One more thing, The General Canadian, you have to look under the hood to see some of the differnces. One BIG thing is the trunioun...it's MUCH heavier than any other 10 inch machine...along with several other differences. If I had the bucks I would have the General in my shop instead of the Delta Unisaw Cab. hands down.... Which I have no complaints....
Thanks,
Steve
Hi Steve - I'm in Grass Valley these past 3-4 years but my work electrical engineering gets me around I have several projects in Woodland including the new Spring Lake Community where I am designing street lighting for a small portion about 250 homes. This new 2500 home community in your town is H U G E I am having a fun working with the City and a developer in coming up with greener better ways to light the streets.
Who is TWC? I was disappointed that Sawstop were absent and wondered if this is who you refer to as TWC?
I am glad to hear more about fences. I was leaning towards the Uni as from somewhere I got that it was easier to slide and adjust with one finger while staying semi-locked down, compared with the Biesemeyer which goes out of parallel each time it is adjusted? Plus in use it looked to me that the Uni was more flexible what with it offering a low profile etc.
I did look online at the Canadian General when you mentioned it 'way-back' but it appeared these are higher priced machines and I wasn't sure which models to look for. But just now at http://www.general.ca/promo/flyer_us.pdf I see on page 2 is the 50-260 for $1699 -this looks in budget and looks good in that it comes with 50" fence and mobile base. Is this what you are comparing with the Unisaw? Or is the 50-220CL M1 comparable? Looks like there are Biesemeyers in several of the pictures?
In the next week I will be making my BIG LIFE-TIME DECISION on my one and only cabinet saw. Or so it appears. Did you see at the Sacramento Woodworking show Sac Machinery Co had a flyer on refurbished Unisaws for $1299 with 50" Biesemeyers. I can pick this up with a trailor plus a sprinkling of CA tax if they still have any. According to the Delta man at the show these are as good as new, returned for some reason but fully checked out at the factory before being re-boxed.
Thanks once again for you input,
Gary
Hey Gary...Grass Valley. I worked up there a few years back on a 48"inch water main down Brunswick Highway and a few other roads by the airport. I've gone through the town in the past but I really fell in love with the town and the people when I worked up there... It's a beautiful place. I'll get back to you tomorrow (hopefully so I can address the other issues)when I have more time....and if you want since you are working in this area, you can come by my shop and see what I'm talking about re. saws....
Chow
Well there you go it's a small world after all. Yep Grass Valley and Nevada City is a great area and it is growing fast. A lot of folk are coming from the Bay Area or Los Angeles area where I spent 20 years until 1998. Housing prices are crazy just like everywhere else.
I am over your way once or twice a month....it would be great to see your shop sometime
Hmm thinking about the General, from this flyer http://www.general.ca/promo/flyer_us.pdf I wonder if the 50-260 is not Canadian?
I look forward to your later post when you get the time. Looks like we are in for a record-cold Easter weekend!
Gary
Hi Gary - The 50-220CL M1 is a hybrid, not a full cabinet saw. It's not comparable in construction to a Uni or the 50-260. It's more comparable
to a Delta 36-717, DeWalt 7646, or Craftsman 22124.Anyone know when the GI 50-260 went from $1299 to $1699? I was looking at a 50-260 at Woodcraft last winter...it was $1299 minus 10%. I always thought they were a good deal for a hobbyist at $1299, but that $400 increase is huge....makes the Shop Fox and Grizzly look really attractive!
There are lots of sources of injury while using a table saw. Running a hand into the blade is one, and one with perhaps the most violent of consequences. However, this is the one most easy to adopt patterns of work that reduce the risk significantly. My first rule is to always consider where my hands would go should the wood I am cutting would suddenly evaporate. This, coupled with the standard rule of never reaching around or past the blade go pretty far.
So, for someone who has received some sound training the extra cost of SawStop may not be worth it. For a situation, such as schools, where all the users may not have internalized the rules, perhaps it is worth it.
However, there is a also question of how long to amortize the cost. I would feel substantially better if I had an idea of SawStop's financial position. How much debt is involved. If a public company, would it have an investment grade rating. What kind of liability insurance does it carry, and what would a mishap do to the the insurances availablity and cost. I am also concerned about the following statement on the web page--
SawStop’s products are manufactured and sold under license to one or more of the following U.S. patents 6857345, 6813983, 6826988, 6877410 and Taiwan patent 143466.This suggests that the intellectual property is not owned by the company selling the product. Should there be a financial crisis the intellectual property could be the only substantially valuable asset.
This is not to say that I have any information at all or any reason to believe that finances are shaky, only that such financial information is not readily available on the website used by SawStop to market its product.
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In any event, to me kickback is the far more insideous risk. Riving knives would be a significant benefit here because of the reduced need to remove them in making not through cuts. And, a US manufacturer, Powermatic, has already introduced a product that addresses this issue. But conscientious use of splitters where possible, as well as finger boards reduce this risk to a manageable (meaning extremely low risk of injury) level.
The Powermatic unit with the riving knife is not the PM 66 which is US made. Powermatic's model PM 2000 has introduced the riving knife. PM 2000 is manufactured in Taiwan.
Sawstop cabinet saw comes standard with riving knife and dust-collection-enclosed splitter guard. Both pop in and out very quickly... easily swappable.
The point is, even the safe pros cut their flesh. Actually, I have seen, in the past, a spreadsheet which statistically broke down table saw injuries. One of the break downs was number of injuries attributed to veteran users vs beginners. I believe the number was almost double for the veteran users. The statistics also revealed that within 10 years of table saw usage, one could expect an accident. Luckily, I've already had two in 6.5 years... two kickbacks. No injury was incurred because I had good positioning. I hope I am covered now. Ha Ha.
The other point is stuff happens... Murphy's Law. Murphy's Law is not a joke. It is a form of Entropy, or more disorder is constantly mounting against the universal system. Therefore, the mere act of trying to gain order (control) of a system comes at the cost of creating more disorder to the universal system. Where we run into problems, is, we think we are so clever in defining/ordering our local system and fail to realize we didn't. Consequently we get adversely effected by the universal system... the CIA calls this blow back. It is not by coincidence that every past and current civilizations has an expression describing Murphy's Law; because it's real and scientifically provable.
So the question is, has Sawstop cleverly defined their local system (safety)? The answer is, not all of the Sawstop testimonials were reported by unsafe in-experienced users. So if it is reducing table saw injuries, the answer once again is yes. Site me one verifiable incident were Sawstop was the cause of serious bodily injury. I guarantee you this I can site countless incidents for all other table saw manufactures.
You lean towards implying company financial stability dictates the longevity of a consumers' saw. The bottom line is people our constantly buying older out-of-date vintage saws. So if the parts are no longer being made, why would one do this? Because there is always an alternative solution.
Cheers
Powermatic is a US company no matter where manufacturing occurs. The quality of a manufactured consumer product depends on who engineered the specifications, not on who poured the cast iron, machined the steel, or potted the electronics.
Entropy is a Law of Thermodynamics, not a guide to human behavior, no matter how dressed up in systems jargon.
I have no quibble at all about SawStop's Riving Knive. Riving knives are good things I believe.
No, I can't cite a SawStop caused injury--may well not have been any, yet. If you want to believe in Murphy's law then it applies to SawStop equally. But SawStop's marketing claims mean a hugh judgment--likely against the company's bankruptcy estate. The existing saws are well known quantities, and consequently users assume the risk of using them. And, of course I know nothing about the liability insurance or financial stability of the Saw Stop company.
If Saw Stop should fail due to liability claims which of the intellectual property owners would continue licensing the cartridges? The answer is none. No one would issue the insurance, and without it no financiers would provide the cash. Not the same thing as popping in a industry standard bearing, or machining a saw arbor for "old iron".
Is there more risk with my 1945 Unisaw that with a SawStop? Perhaps. But I'm not going about reducing risk, I'm going about living. I drove on I-95 in Connecticut today, about two hours worth--to work on my boat, and conduct some business for my yacht club. I would have had less risk had I stayed at home. I also have risk everytime I venture out into Long Island sound. Or do any number of things. As humans we ought to choose our own risks. Me, I am perfectly willing to risk losing a few digits--at the risk I deem it likely to happen to me. The extra $2,000 a Saw Stop would mean would reduce my standard of living a lot more.
I've been debating on whether to jump into the fracas on this (another) SawStop debate... I do like the idea of the technology, and think it is an important step forward. Hopefully more stuff like this will work its way into the equipment we use. I don't think I'd like to see it evolve into a scene like what my impression of the European situation is... where a lot of stuff is either mandated or disallowed by a governmental organization. Hopefully it won't come to that.That said... from what I gleaned in talking w/ someone involved w/ one of the 'other' tablesaw companies... it wasn't so much those companies being greedy and not willing to pay for the technology, as it was a totally unrealistic royalty level demanded by SawStop... over 2x the normal max, almost 3x the average. I'm guessing that with all the other things that factor into the 'cost' of making and selling saws these days... that was just a wee bit more than manufacturers figured that they could pass on to the customers and sell enough of them to make it worth their while (like it or not, that is what they are in business to do, in order to pay their bills and their employees and everybody else that has to get paid). Maybe SawStop will prove them wrong; maybe people will pay close to $4k for a cabinet saw, when a perfectly functional one can be had for less than half that. As in most industries, as soon as you attach the word 'safety' to something, the price goes thru the roof... almost better than having a government contract, it would seem.YMMV,Monte
Yes Entropy is a Law of Thermodynamics. Does this mean the analogy does not hold water? You hold onto your opinion. I will do so too.
In regards to your comment, "But I'm not going about reducing risk, I'm going about living. " This is where we differ in approach. I am about reducing risk in order to continue with life and quality of life, when I can. I drive a car which has air bags and functional seat belts. I am one of those fools whom believes they reduce my risk of death. I guess I am just funny that way.
Yes, you are correct about the risk in regards to cartridges. I should have been clearer about longevity. Meaning, potential worse case scenario would be future machine usage operated in bypass mode. I could also go the extra step of by passing the circuitry, rewiring, which is not rocket science. After all, Sawstop is a quality saw even after excluding its braking technology.
Yes, "The existing saws are well known quantities, " statement is absolutely correct and risk free compared with Sawstop. Once again this is where we differ in risk taking.
"Yes Entropy is a Law of Thermodynamics. Does this mean the analogy does not hold water? You hold onto your opinion. I will do so too."With all due respect, a law of physics should be held in higher regard than that of one's opinion about it's applicability to something else. That's why it's a law and not a theory. Please excuse me for butting in here, lately I've been more sensitive to the tweaking of science to fit what someone feels it should be rather than what it is.
Edited 4/12/2006 8:34 pm ET by tangomike
Sorry, but a Law is merely a theory where exceptions have not been observed--yet. In Science (capital S) there is no Truth that deserves deference beyond the last valid observation. "Law" is merely a warning title that suggests all the simple tests have been tried. Entropy is a complicated enough concept, without trying to bend it far outside its scope into sociology, or was it psychology.
okay ;) whatever you say.Davies and Feynman would disagree with you, specifically having said that a physical law is universal, absolute, eternal, and omnipotent. But hey, if you want to go up against them then I will reconsider... actually I won't but what the heck! Now would be the time for you to throw in Newtonian dynamics or Heizenberg to argue your "laws are kinda really just theories" case, or to the original argument by going with statistical mechanics.Too off topic for my taste, and not worth arguing about IMO.
But the kicker is that I believe the increased risk of amputation from my Unisaw with splitter and no guard is miniscule. And, you know what, we each have exactly the same probability of living forever.
I recently purchased a Jet hybrid with a closed cabinet and sliding table. The mitre gauge seems to be doing a good job of staying true through plywood cabinet sides and the fit and finish is good. Early opinion is,therefore, are that I'm happy.
Wish they had a 3HP version. Even at 220, still bogs down on hardwoods greater than 4/4.
Oops !! "Saw" this post after making a comment on the DW746 post.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S. Counter Sales, Tech Rep. http://WWW.EAGLEAMERICA.COM
Not to be a pain, but can we circle back to the original question? I am NOT made of money and am in the market for a new TS. The hybrid's are real big on my list because I don't have the 220 or the bank account.
So far it seems that the Craftsman and General have gotten some good press. I don't recall seeing anything on the new Delta hybrid or the Grizzly hybrid.
Thoughts?
As far as I know, Griz hasn't shipped any of the new G0478 hybrids yet, or if they have, it's too soon to have seen field reports yet. I'd also keep an eye on the amp draw of that motor...it's stated at 20 amps, but their other 2hp motors draw 24 amps and require a non-standard 30 amp circuit or 220v. A 20 amp saw on a 20 amp circuit is stretching. Electrical requirements aside, it appears to be a nice saw at a decent price.I've read several positive comments from users of the Delta 36-717. That said, it offers very few advantages over the Craftsman 22124 which is similar, but has the benefit of cabinet mounted trunnions, a good stock blade, and is often on sale for < $850. If I were shopping for a hybrid I'd also be seriously looking into the GI 50-220. They offer 3 fence options for it. But all in all, I wouldn't give up my 22124 for any other hybrid.
Edited 4/12/2006 3:49 pm ET by scotty
Thanks for the insight on the motor and electrical side of things. I have..ahem...had an old Delta 34-400 that the motor died and, thus the upgrade questions. I am willing (like an earlier post) to spend upto $1K, but I don't want to spend all that.
The General does look nice.
http://www.woodsmithstore.com/210147.html#productspecs
I suppose the Craftsman saw also has the built-in outfeed support table to recommend it. I drove up to our local Sears (the nearest is 25 miles away) and checked the saw out. The display model was in sad shape but I expect that from floor models. Overall, the saw looked fairly substantial and the quality of the materials appeared good. The wings were badly installed and the top was nasty. But I was impressed with the saw's apparent quality. It would be nice to be able to use one before buying it.So the Craftsman hybrid saw is in the running. I've looked at the General 50-220C. But I've heard some real horror stories about General International that make me a bit leary of them (like supplying fence rails that have to be drilled by the customer).I realize that hybrid saws are a fairly new genre. But I'm pretty sure I need either a hybrid saw or a full on cabinet saw. I've been using my router to final size my boards (and occasionally my circular saw and an edge guide) since I can't rely on my table saw for that. Maybe I can do that for a while longer and go for the full cabinet saw. The Delta 36-732 and the Grizzly G1023SL are both contenders, there.Thanks for the info on the power with the Grizzly. I hadn't noticed that. My table saw is on a dedicated 20 amp circuit right now. I'm wondering if it would trip it.
I was fortunate in that I did have the chance to help a friend set up his 22124 and run it. I would have hesitated more if it hadn't been for that. Maybe you'll run across someone in your area who owns one. There are several owners on this and other forums....you might try asking on Woodnet.net, sawmillcreek.org, or Woodmagazine.com in addition to here. I still hold onto the dream of someday owning a cabinet saw, but it's a distinct want and not a need, and is a weaker urge than it once was. At the time I bought my 22124, a full cabinet saw would have cost ~ $500 more. The big cabinet saws definitely require 220v, which I have, but don't know if I have the capacity to run the 2HP DC and a 3hp cab saw on that same circuit. For my uses, the added cost of a bigger saw and any additional electrical work can't really be justified. FWIW, my experience with General International were positive.Good luck to you!
Scotty, just to bring you up to speed on 220 power, the code allows only one plug per 220v circut. This is why almost every shop ends up with a 100 amp sub panel (at least) to run the bigger equipment. Terry
Santa Barbara,CA
I had read an article about the sawstop and it seemed pretty interesting. Earlier in this thread someone pointed out the distinction between General and General international. When I went to their site, they had both names there, so I wasn't able to determine whether their hybrid is the Canadian version or "international".Before I started reading this thread, I would have completely disregarded the Craftsman. Now I am really thinking about checking it out. Thanks to everyone for their input on that!I recall reading that when people had received their Grizzly table saws they had a real heck of a time cleaning off the "protective coating" they put on it for shipping purposes. Is this something that all manufacturers do? I have never bought a large piece of equipment new and that seemed rather annoying.
I, too, went to the General website. I believe that the 50-220C is made offshore and is a product of General International. The WoodSmithStore.com site lists it as the "General International 10" Tilting Arbor Table Saw Manufacturer #50-220C".One of the qualifiers I would have is a blade height lock. My current saw does not have this and I am constantly having to reset the blade height as it creeps down.The need for a 30 amp 110 volt circuit (from the Grizzly G0478 manual) means that I would have to modify the current dedicated circuit for my table saw to use a 30 amp breaker and change the outlet and cover plate. This would add about $20 to the cost. It would add more for people who didn't already have a dedicated circuit.I like the fact that the Craftsman table saw has the trunnion mounted to the cabinet and not to the table top. But the 1 3/4 HP motor seems a little on the weak side. I have problems cutting some hardwoods already with my 1 1/2 HP saw even with a new Forrest WWII blade.The Delta 36-715/716/717 also only has a 1 3/4 HP motor.The machine needs to have good dust collection capability. That's a must. A 2HP motor would better than a 1.5 or 1.75 HP motor. A 3HP would be much better but I realize that means 220V.At the lower end of "true" cabinet saws would be the Grizzly G1023SL and the Delta 36-732.I suppose the Powermatic 64 fits in there somewhere, too.The big problem is the limited budget. Both for the saw and the expense of adding a 220V circuit which, in my case, means adding a sub-panel and transferring two circuits to the sub-panel since my main service is already full.I don't know of any other makes of hybrid table saws at the moment. So if anyone else can add another model to the list, that would be helpful. It would be nice if there was some sort of published guide.
Keep in mind that your existing 20 amp circuit may only have 14 aug wire, to run a 30 amp circuit and get the most benifit from it, you may need to upgrade to 12 aug or 10 aug wire anyway.
It's tough to get more than 1.5 hp from a 110v 14 aug wire circuit, even if your saw has a 2hp rating, it may not get the power it needs to get it up to full speed. If that is what you are looking at, you might as well replace it with 8 or 10 aug wire from your panel and run a 220v circuit. Terry
Santa Barbara,CA
Thanks. The existing circuit is 10-3 copper because I had a roll of it at the time (ran it in conduit and everything :o) ). So I can convert this to a 30 amp circuit easily. The existing breaker and outlet are rated at 20 amps. So that's really all I'd need to change for a 30 amp circuit.Part of my problem is that I have no more open "slots" in my main 200 amp panel. I had three new circuits run in my shop when I set it up (one for lights, one for the table saw, and another for other outlets). I'd have to add a sub panel to run a 220v circuit (or any further circuits) as well as move a couple of circuits from the main panel to the sub panel to make room for the sub panel breaker.That would entail a new 50 amp (at least) breaker, a new sub panel, 3 gauge cabling for the new panel as well as moving at least two circuits to the new panel.
Edited 4/14/2006 5:13 pm ET by RogerWilco99
Have you tried the thin breakers? You can put two circuits in the place of one.
No, I haven't tried thin breakers. I don't know if they are available in the type for my panel. They probably are. I just haven't looked. That might be a good solution if I can tighten up the 110 circuits in there. I could use the 10 gauge on my dedicated 110V for the 220V circuit then. Thanks for the idea.
I think someone mentions half-height breakers later on which I'm pretty sure are still legal in residences which is a good way to get extra circuits out of a panel.
You mentioned a 50A circuit - this is what I am planning too. 3#8 copper Romex is good for 45A and can be used for a 50A feeder per NEC 240.3(B) -this saves $ as the main cost in adding circuits is the copper. I found this Southwire Romex ampacity table at http://appprod.mysouthwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet192
Gary
Hi Terry - I got my NEC code book out again -actually I have it in PDF format which is great for doing keyword searches. It's true that NEC 240.4(B) allows wire to be the next standard size down from the breaker however not for #14, #12 and #10 wire per 240.4(d). Hence a 30A circuit and outlet needs #10 wire. A way around this is to omit the 30A outlet and hardwire the 220V machine via a local disconnect switch in which case the wire would only need to be 125% of the motor nameplate full-load-amps i.e. a Unisaw 3hp 220V at 14FLA =17.5A here #12 wire is allowed. But likely this will cost more than #10 wire unless the #12 is existing. I agree too sometimes #8 wire is needed, to keep voltage drop to 3% on an 80% loaded (24A) 30A circuit #10 wire is only good for 120-feet.
Gary
Garry, I understand what the code allows and being able to use 10 aug wire in this situation. However, at least to me, it makes perfect sense to run the circuit with one age heavier wire, for little extra cost, so you can also use the same circuit for a bigger machine in the future.Terry
Santa Barbara,CA
Hi Terry - yes I was thinking the same thing. Putting in #8 could allow a 50A subpanel to be added later.
Gary
I wouldn't give the hp rating much credence. There are very few full 2hp motor's that'll run on a standard 110v circuit. My GI 50-185 was rated at 2hp and I don't think it was quite as strong as my 22124. Shorter drive belts of the hybrids usually mean more efficient power transfer if all else is equal. Add to that the fact that many of the hybrids use a more advanced belt than a standard v-belt, and you get even more efficient power transfer. Blade alignment may be a factor too...it was easier to get my 22124 to within 0.001 than my GI was...I was only able to get that to abou 0.003 or 0.004. In any event, the 22214 rips better using the same blades. Is your WWII a TK or full kerf? ...that'll make a difference. I'm using a 40T WWII TK most of the time, and a 24T DeWalt FTG TK ripper for thick stuff...it walks right through 10/4" and even 12/4" hardwoods. (I'll refrain from using the cliche "like a hot knife through butter" b/c it feels more like a saw through hard wood!) :DThe PM64a is a nice contractor saw...very similar to the GI 50-185. DC and alignment issues will remain and will require extra attention. http://www.epinions.com/content_184778395268I'd be really surprise if they didn't all have height knob locks.
Edited 4/14/2006 6:52 pm ET by scotty
The WWII I'm using is a full kerf (it's easier to figure a 1/8" blade kerf into things). That might be why it tends to bog a little.The motor is also the original 1963 vintage. The belt is also a long single v-belt that has considerable flap. The saw is old and very worn. It's probably run for over 8,000 hours by now. The top is so polished from moving wood over it and cleaning it that it's almost a mirror finish, now. I can't imagine how many miles of wood have passed over that surface.
I notice the Grizzly G1023SL is a left tilt 3hp for $975 at Amazon -the price looks good?
I'm adding one 220V 30A outlet for a new table saw plus a 120V 20A dedicated circuit with outlets from a panel 75-feet away. Total cost is about $150 plus I hear maybe $20 for inspection. I priced going the sub-panel route (which would still be nice to have for future additional circuits) at $300-$350. Here's a thought, if I use 50A #8 copper wire from a 30A breaker to the 30A outlet this could later be upgraded to a 50A sub-panel which could handle multiple 220V and 120V loads
Don't forget to include shipping on the Griz. Delivered price is $1,064.25...still a nice deal on a saw of this type.
Hi Terry - Thanks for the info....I didn't know that! I ran that 220 line myself from an unused dryer line. It's not likely to be subject to an inspection at this stage, but the line itself really does have only the one outlet that the DC hooks too....the DC's switch was relocated to a more convenient location, and the saw's outlet taps off from the that....still not within code as you pointed out, but it'd take a pretty astute inspector to notice it! ;-)
I suppose if my ship ever comes in and I end up with a 3hp cab saw, I'll need to run a separate line....my wife has been wanting to get a gas stove anyway! :D
Edited 4/13/2006 9:32 am ET by scotty
I recently saw that SawStop is going to make a contractor's saw, starting in May. Price didn't look too bad (about $800 as I recall). You might check their website.
Bob
and was considering the sliding table option ..
Well, if you have money AND the room to use it! I looked at that saw.. Just 'LOOKED' mind you..
Slider was OK but a bit short if you really need such a thing..
This may sound like heresy, but I use my TS a lot less than I used to. I do use my Minimax bandsaw with increasing frequency for a lot of work that I would have done on my TS, and I use my sliding compound miter for almost all of my cutoff operations.
So I guess what I'm getting at is that a hybrid may in fact work for you if you have a good idea of the extent to which you use your tablesaw. I could probably get away with a hybrid, but I do rip a lot of 5/4 and up stock and that would probably tax a hybrid.
I have a unisaw with the 52" unifence and I'm thinking of swapping it out for the 30" fence. It's easy to take the attitude of buying up and getting more tool than you need, and the tool industry is getting better at creating that attitude, but I'm really trying to simplify my shop and get everything down to what I need rather than what I could buy at the time.
I am clear that a hybrid would handle everything I would ever want a table saw to handle - but this is in the 'something I have always wanted' category. I honestly thought this was something I would never get, until last year when my better half for her significant birthday wanted (and got) a $2000 water fountain to go near the rear deck. What is really funny about this is when my wife asked what was I going to do with this TS my answer is 'nothing, it is just for looking at, like a fountain'. This creates the context I want for my workshop of it being a place for creative fun with no pressure to return the value of the tools or be productive etc.
I do have a small bandsaw and 12" compound miter but expect that a regular TS will open all sorts of new and more accurate ways of doing things. The miter gauge on my 10" Inca has always been hard to push smooothly.
When I told Delta that I wanted a 30" Biesemeyer they suggested I buy the refurbished Unisaw with 50" rails and cut the rails back to what ever I wanted. I don't really have fixed space for 50" rails but figure that with a mobile base there will be projects that will benefit from the larger flat surface
you won't regret buying a cabinet saw, and you will not have to replace it in a lifetime of work. Go for it.
You posted: "I honestly thought this was something I would never get, until last year when my better half for her significant birthday wanted (and got) a $2000 water fountain to go near the rear deck. What is really funny about this is when my wife asked what was I going to do with this TS my answer is 'nothing, it is just for looking at, like a fountain'." I laughed aloud upon reading this!If I had such a budget, there would be 4 or 5 tools "just for looking at." I have no miter saw, but like Tangomike, I use my table saw less than I used to do. I use a contractor saw w/1-1/2-hp motor & thin-kerf blade with no trouble. If your bandsaw is less than a 14-incher, maybe that should be in your budget. I use mine more than ever since owning a truly good one. Depending on what you already own, you may want more tools "for looking at."I read an article somewhere about the fact that no major manufacturer wanted Sawstop's patent rights. From an engineering and marketing economics standpoint, it was easy to see their reasons. Personally, I try my best to practice personal safety. I have all fingers at age 70. I use push sticks & blocks. I do wish that all saws could be equipped with a blade guard like Ridgid's. But there is no substitute for personal awareness in matters of safety, not airbags nor antilock brakes either. If we made everything safe to its maximum, industry would come to a halt. So would traffic. Are children safer becaause their mother drives a Volvo -- 15mph above the speed limit on a wet street?!!Won't you work safely just because you are safety conscious?BTW, my better half places no limit on shop purchases. My income does that.CadiddlehopperP.S.: Why not just buy the best looking saw? --Cadid
Edited 4/10/2006 8:53 pm ET by cadiddlehopper
Now there's a new topic - the best looking tools!
My present set up includes a 10" benchtop by duracraft (see picture of benchtop saw built into workbench) that has taper cut table legs out of 4" maple -the blade smoked and the motor cutout on almost every taper -but it worked. This would have been a far more difficult cut on my 10" Inca bandsaw and would have also have required more planing/cleanup afterwards.
For safety is there anything that tops a pair of Gripper GR-200 push blocks? The MJ splitter also looks worthwhile?
Edited 4/11/2006 8:33 am by GaryPC
An article about Sawstop in Inc Magazine July 2005 explains some interesting history http://www.inc.com/magazine/20050701/disruptor-gass.html and includes speculation about TS manufacturers "They're like the auto industry, which had to be dragged kicking and screaming to install air bags."
Perhaps the day will come when manufacturers will offer or be required to provide retrofit kits? To address the extreme stresses FingerlessHack wrote about could there be some sort of slippage or clutch built into the system? Or perhaps there is already enough slippage in most belts and pulleys that this is less of an issue than we imagine.
"Perhaps the day will come when manufacturers will offer or be required to provide retrofit kits?"Personally, I would prefer to not live in a nanny state. Unlike auto accidents, 100% of tablesaw amputations are preventable through safe work habits and by using existing safety equipment. Additionally, the great majority of injuries occur in work environments, not hobbyists, and in this environment OSHA already mandates guarded blades and fines employers for not using guards.
Edited 4/11/2006 1:54 pm ET by tangomike
"They're like the auto industry, which had to be dragged kicking and screaming to install air bags."Please be aware that airbags have killed about 150 people (probably more by now), mostly children, in very minor fender benders. Also be aware that it can never be proved that an airbag saved a life. Regardless of how troopers gush over that "fact," it can never be proved because the seat belt could have done it alone. Hooray, Preston Tucker; Boo, Ralph Nader. Even if a few lives have been saved by airbags, a cost/benefit analysis will easily show that there HAD to be a more cost effective solution to highway carnage. I would prefer lower speed limits, requiring a grade of 99 on license tests (100 for rules of right-of-way), getting freight back on the rails where it belongs, emphasizing local economies rather than a global one, and living in a bit more liesurely manner.The image: Young mother transporting her dear children 15mph over the speed limit in the rain in her Volvo. What is wrong with that picture?That post should get a lot of responses. They probably won't have much to do with table saw safety, but maybe safety philosophy anyway.CadiddlehopperP.S.: Maybe an airbag next to the blade would work! Flesh touches blade, sensor fires airbag which pushes hand away. That idea is now in the public domain, for what it is worth.Cadid
I've been using table saws for twenty years and I own a Unisaw. If I were to by another cabinet saw I think I would go with the Laguna TS. The build quality is a cut above and I like the european style splitter that rises and lowers with the blade. Also, the optional sliding table is suberb.
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