I am confused about the PC 557 issue
scooleen
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
| I am re-doing this topic, simply because I dont understand. I own the unit, so I want to be perfectly clear on the issue before I go home and play with the thing.
So far I have used the 557 with the fence set in the 90 degree setting. From the reading I have done, it appears that the type 2 has an issue when you use it as it is stored. With the fence completely retracted or at 0 I guess. This is used say, if you wanted to join a piece of wood to the middle of another piece. Is the issue, the biscuit wont fit all the way in? Please help me understand.
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Replies
It's all about the limitations intrinsically imposed by biscuit joinery. In the time that you've wasted in the shop attempting to get the unit to cut the joinery you need, posting and monitoring responses here, you could have cut the joinery by hand and been on to the next stage of construction.
but just in case you intended to use your biscuit joiner more than once, i'll try to offer a more useful reply than the previous response.
the fence on the type 2 pc 557 stands slightly proud (.015"-.020") of the cutter face when you set it at 90 degrees (180?- whichever is straight up parallel to the cutter face). this "defect" stems from a patent infringement dispute with dewalt. in other words, when trying to cut with the fence flat against the middle of a panel (say, for a shelf) the face of the fence keeps the face of the machine from pressing firmly against the panel you're cutting a slot into. and it can be a little unstable, not to mention the fence is smooth and doesn't have any traction on the material. to fix it, get a shim kit for $10 from the fly-by-night copper co. (i think it's flybynightcopper.com)
i've heard the new type 3 solves this problem.
m
"It's all about the limitations intrinsically imposed by biscuit joinery. In the time that you've wasted in the shop attempting to get the unit to cut the joinery you need, posting and monitoring responses here, you could have cut the joinery by hand and been on to the next stage of construction."
Thanks for your help, very useful, hope this makes you feel better.
As for the rest, thanks for your help, think I will be sticking to Breaktime.
Edited 12/31/2003 8:01:19 AM ET by scooleen
apparently you're unfamiliar with the general concept of "if you can't say anything nice (or in this case, useful) don't say anything at all"?
tens (hundreds?) of thousands of woodworkers use plate joiners for perfectly legitimate reasons. that doesn't make them machine dependent hacks any more than your luddite inclinations makes you a master. however, in my book and apparently scooleen's too, your comments in this thread do tend to make one think you're somewhat of a jerk.
m
This type of retort is not helpful to someone genuinely trying to understand his/her equipment.
From one of the responses above:
the fence on the type 2 pc 557 stands slightly proud (.015"-.020") of the cutter face when you set it at 90 degrees (180?- whichever is straight up parallel to the cutter face). this "defect" stems from a patent infringement dispute with dewalt. in other words, when trying to cut with the fence flat against the middle of a panel (say, for a shelf) the face of the fence keeps the face of the machine from pressing firmly against the panel you're cutting a slot into. and it can be a little unstable, not to mention the fence is smooth and doesn't have any traction on the material. to fix it, get a shim kit for $10 from the fly-by-night copper co. (i think it's flybynightcopper.com)
Best argument ever for moving beyond woodworking with mass-produced, corded tools.
I'd love to know that the fix for one of my tools was the purchase of a shim kit from the fly-by-night copper company. Says it all.
Edited 1/1/2004 9:26:36 AM ET by CHASSTANFORD
That is why chisels come perfectly sharp from the factory and don't need tons of items to keep them sharp.
That is why one never needs to adjust the kerf on a handsaw.
That is why one never has to work over a plane because not only due the blades come perfect from the factory but everything is flat and square.
That is why real woodworkers grow their own trees because only hacks let others do their felling and drying for them.
This is also why anything built by anyone who uses hand tools ALWAYS looks better than anything built with machines.
I get sick of those hacks who insist on using steel tools, I make all of mine from flint as any real woodworker knows, the more primitive the tool the better the work.
Have a happy new year everyone!
Michael
I have the P-C 557 Type 2 and Mitch is correct about its deficiencies. While certainly annoying, I don't think the flaws are catastrophic. For one thing, even with the gap caused by the protruding fence, the slots made by the biscuit joiner is usually deep enough for the biscuits. I say usually because although the depth of plunge is a little more than half the biscuit, once in a while I don't plunge all the way or I get a slightly oversized biscuit. Whatever I don't catch on the dry fit I "fix" (or at least try to) with my beefiest clamp.
As far as the fence goes, even when I am plunging in the middle of a panel, I usually clamp a plywood fence to the panel to position my joiner. The added benefit is that the base of the joiner has something to register against. As a result I have yet to experience any tipping or instability. In terms of traction, the fence is less than ideal, but I find the weight of the joiner and allowing the blade to run at full speed before plunging will keep slipping to a minimum.
My main detraction, however, is when the joiner is configured for FF biscuit cutting with the 2" blade. In the plunge mode, there is a crossbar on the retracted fence that prevents the housing from plunging at all. In other words, it is impossible to place a FF biscuit in the middle of a panel. This, I think, is the Type 2's biggest flaw (not to mention replacing the cool-looking spanner wrench from the Type 1 with a cheapy little allen wrench as the blade changing tool).
I could not remember having any problems with my 557 so I checked it today. Mine came with a piece of heavy grit sandpaper glued on around the blade opening. The surface of the sandpaper is even with the face of the fence when it is retracted. I purchased it last spring.
don't you wonder if chasstanford owns/uses a tablesaw, bandsaw, lathe, router (gosh, i've got nothing better to do today than fiddle with a plow plane to cut a couple dados), jointer (only 2400 board ft of oak to clean up for that big trim and built-in project for those new law offices, i oughta be done by valentine's day), planer (ditto- by easter), drill press, any other corded or cordless power tools of any kind, electric lighting (or hvac for that matter), modern sheet goods (only solid wood for everything), adhesives (pegged joints or the occasional dab of genuine hide glue concocted from the skins of rabbits he caught with his bare hands, no namby pamby high-tech snares or traps for him!), finishes (just a little beeswax from his own hive- he was making his own shellac, but his bug colony died in a bad frost), etc, etc, etc?
more importantly, where the he!! does he get off telling anybody else what the standards of their products must be? how it's made, what it's made of, how long it must last, etc, to suit their purposes- or more directly, that of their customer?
did i say somewhat of a jerk? i meant d___h___.
m
Your reaction makes it all worthwhile.
Can I borrow your Fly-By-Night catalog? I need to place an order.
Shop has:
No corded tools, no sheet goods, electric lights but rarely use them - shop has twelve windows and skylights (sun goes down I'm done), wood burning stove, nice stereo, a dog and a cat (both still have their hearing), hide glue always (nothing's better).
Don't do built-ins, but I have built a few desks for attorneys, I leave the bookcases for others.
Set standards for others? Not really. Just pointing out alternatives that appear to be overlooked.
Please tell me that there are alternatives to a poorly made biscuit joiner....?
The PC 557 biscuit joiner has a significant advantage compared to the competition; the handle fixed to the fence being the primary one.
Unfortunately PC had to make a quick change to comply with a patent infringement decision in a suit brought by DeWalt. The way they chose to do so was by recessing the fixed portion of the fence slightly. Apparently DeWalt's patent was for a specific fence configuration which included the fixed portion flush with the movable portion when the movable portion was aligned flat. The resulting biscuit joiner is designated as a "Type II" on the ID plate on the tool.
Some folks who chose the humorous name "fly-by-night copper co" offer a simple "fix". PC has since found another solution - license agreement with DW, other alteration to fence design, ?? - and brought out the "Type III" with a flush fence.
CHASSTANFORD - How would you feel and react if you posted a question on dealing with a hide glue issue and someone started posting responses questioning why you animal product glue when better alternative exist?
Have you ever heard the saying about knowing more and more about less and less?
It's often used in the medical field to refer to certain specialists, but I think it applies here.
Maybe the explanation is that you work for either PC or B&D (or have some other vested interest other than simple tool ownership).
I hope so.
Nope, no interest or connection to either PC or B&D, other than I have a small Skilsaw which was originally purchased new by B&D soon after WWII for "benchmarking". My uncle worked at B&D and they sold the competitive tools to their employees when they were done with their testing, evaluations, etc.
My general woodworking inclination is to use more non-powered hand tools than powered tools, though I generally find a mix to be best for my purposes. Still in a learning mode and probably will be as long as I'm around. And I'd far rather watch Roy than Norm or Scott.
i can tell by your repeated snide references to the fly-by-night copper co. that you also have an extremely stunted sense of humor. i suppose if those folks were similarly challenged, they'd have a name such as The Porter-Cable 557 Plate Joiner Correctional Shim Co. Inc., and that would instantaneously confer upon it, merely by dint of its new moniker, heretofore undeserved legitimacy?
for the record, HEAR YE, HEAR YE, EVERYBODY KNOWS THERE ARE PLENTY OF MORE OR LESS PRACTICAL ALTERNATIVES TO BISCUITS FOR JOINING TWO PIECES OF MATERIAL TOGETHER (translation: Oh, no sh!t?), BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, THEY SERVE A VERY USEFUL, EFFICIENT, EFFECTIVE PURPOSE FOR A BROAD RANGE OF REASONABLY PRICED EVERYDAY PRODUCTS. WHAT THE GENTLEMAN ORIGINALLY ASKED WAS HOW HE COULD ADJUST FOR OR FIX A MINOR PROBLEM WITH A PIECE OF EQUIPMENT HE OWNED. HE DIDN'T NEED YOUR PATHETIC LITTLE NEO-LUDDITE RATION OF CRAP.
"Just pointing out alternatives that appear to be overlooked." the only thing being overlooked here is your refusal to acknowledge the original poster didn't ask for alternatives to biscuits, undoubtedly is already well aware of them (honestly, do you really believe he's saying to himself, "huh, you mean you can actually build furniture and stuff without using biscuits? what will they think of next?! golly!"), and certainly didn't need what he got out of you.
m
Edited 1/2/2004 12:16:41 PM ET by mitch
Just doing my part to keep this place from complete degradation to nothing but a "my tool won't work"; 'what tablesaw do you recommend" tool forum.
I'm losing the battle.
The hand tool forums are even worse - mostly collectors and entry level/ relatively infrequent users/glorified restorers and tuners.
I'm a thorn in everybody's side. Guess you'll have to live with it.
Edited 1/2/2004 1:11:55 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
if that's really your heart-felt intent (as opposed to just playing holier than thou), wouldn't your goal be better served with a modicum of tact and understanding? for example, "well scooleen, what exactly are you trying to use the biscuit joiner for in the first place? maybe there's a better way entirely to do it." then after he tells you more about his particular application, then it may or may not be appropriate for you to offer alternate methods. as it was, you just succeeeded in pi$$ing him off, not bringing him around to your way of thinking one bit. strikes me as counter-productive.
from one of his further posts, where he expresses his disgust with you and says he's going back to breaktime, i can reasonably surmise he works primarily in the building trades, not in fine furniture. i'm guessing he figured (correctly) the woodworking forum would be a better place to ask about biscuit joiners (i further suspect he has any number of fairly pedestrian uses for one doing installs, trim carpentry, etc), just as i have sent a couple folks making inquiries about tools like hammer drills over there from here.
are too many folks machine dependent? yeah, probably. are too few able to properly use handtools? undoubtedly. ultimately, i'm most interested in the finished product- that necessarily includes very strong design and engineering from the start. it takes more than hand/eye coordination to use a hand tool and it takes plenty of skill to use a machine to its fullest. both take a lot of education and practice. the only advantage a hack with a $20 handsaw has over one with $2000 tablesaw is that he wrecks less good lumber in his lifetime- they're both turning out junk.
m
I, for one, welcome your "Neo-Luddite" views, even though they're pretty far out towards the end of the bell curve. There's not nearly enough attention to the value of handwork and good manual skills. I use whichever gets me the desired result with the best balance of quality vs. time, but I learned how to do most everything by hand before I learned to do it with the aid of a machine.
However, I have to agree with Mitch on this point: Your opinions come across as churlish, petulant, derisive, and intolerant. They might well be better received if you restrained your passion and gave a little more thought to more effective communication. I don't mean couch everything in mealy mouthed natter -- just take some of the snarl out.
By the way, I didn't see you calling anyone names. Now, that's what I call really effective communication. Guaranteed to keep your point from getting across.
Hope I'm not the pot calling the kettle black..........
Michael R.
First let me say your rants are much, much more entertaining to read than CHASSTANFORD's. Still, I sometimes wonder what you're trying to achieve. May I offer for your consideration the following words from a wise and humane Knots contributor. "[A]s it was, you just succeeeded in pi$$ing him off, not bringing him around to your way of thinking one bit. [S]trikes me as counter-productive."
and that's why my post ran for two more paragraphs in a far more conciliatory tone. i was trying to impress upon him that it defeats his cause to drive people way with a bad attitude. i'm sure more than one would-be back-to-basics woodworker has said, "what a bunch of sanctimonious tight a$$es! i'd rather laugh with the sinners than b!tch with the saints." i'm one of those people who thinks everybody ought to know how to use almost everything- that way you'll know what the best tool for the job is. (my wife thinks i'm trying to acquire every tool known to mankind anyway)
what he doesn't know is that i'm an absolute hand tool fiend when it suits my ends. my main artistic pursuit for the last 20+ years has been super high end engraving and jewelry work. i recently finished a project that averaged 200 hrs per square inch of metal engraved- about 3500 hrs total. that's right, a month or so spent working on an area the size of a postage stamp. to me tools are mostly just a means to an end, a vehicle to help make the vision in my head match the one in my hands. i almost exclusively use unpowered hand tools but work under a top quality leica or olympus microscope- where does one draw the line on technology?
m
>> ... it defeats his cause to drive people way with a bad attitude.
Unless driving people away with a bad attitude is his cause. Just because he posts grumpy messages about the evil of power tools doesn't mean the evil of power tools is what's important to him. It might be the grumpy that's important to him.
Your campaign depends on (at least) two assumptions; that CHASSTANFORD's posts harm anybody but himself, and that the likelihood of changing his behavior is sufficient to justify the effort. I don't believe either assumption is true.
Don't try to teach a pig to sing. It won't work, and it only annoys the pig.
I would assume that any lover of REAL hand tools and hand work ONLY uses tools made by HAND by a blacksmith. I would also assume that none of those nasty modern chemical finishes, nothing but raw linseed and beeswax.
Handwork is great, I actually prefer it to machine work. However, the amount of people who can afford it are few and far between.
Handwork is great if this is a hobby, but for anyone trying to make a living at it (like those 18th century guys) need whatever edge they can to make quality furniture fast.
I make gunstocks and for every beautiful custom piece I am commissioned to make, I make a whole lot of standard stocks. The standard stocks are what pay the bills. If I was wealthy and this was only a hobby, I would likely only do the high end stuff. For my clients, they love the work and think whatever they bought is a thing of beauty and a source of pride. Should I tell them that no, it is a piece of crap because I did some of it with a shaper and cut it to a pattern?
I think there are wonderful places for handwork. Sometimes it IS faster to just grab a chisel and a handsaw and to not bother with a machine. Anyone want to race on making dados on a large bookshelf? Which dado is better? Undoubtedly the machine cut one.
Craftsmanship is not dependent on tools but tools do not eliminate craftsmanship either.
Michael
you might be right, he may well be perfectly comfortable playing the cantankerous curmudgeon. it just bothers me to think of people that way even though i've seen enough in my 40+ yrs to know better. i guess i like to think better of the gang here. (next door is another thing entirely, as you well know ;-) ) i'm just one of those people who try to be as nice as possible until someone gives me reason not to be- then i can be one of the biggest prix around.
m
I had a quick look through the archives and it seems to me that he's had a "religous conversion" experience - lived in the darkness, seen the light, and realizes the inherent evil in power tools and goodness in hand tools - and has been "saved". Now he wants to spread the word and save others, truly intending good. And since what he is trying to do is "good" then it's unfortunate but acceptable to him if others are offended. For the truly commited there's no point in trying reason - they know the truth.
tis none more zealous than the newly converted.
m
scooleen ,
If I didn't know better I'd guess "CHASSTANFORD" was Roy Underhill with a bad attidtude er sumthun .
That sounds close to an insult to Roy Underhill.
David ,
None intended ,
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