Shop had a wiring makeover today. Fantastic! Gotta gloat just a little, here’s the before and after in my little 22′ x 22′ dust-shack…
Before: One light switch, located 2/3’s the way down the long wall, hard to find in the dark. Two duplex outlets on same wall, 2 in the celing, all but one 15 amp. Whoop-dee-do. Lots and lots and lots of extension cords, yes heavy gauge, but a PITA.
After: Two light switches, one just inside the door (Wow, what a clever idea, eh?!). Same two duplexes on east wall. Three (3!) quads on North, 2 quads on West, 2 quads on South, all but two are 20 amp. A couple more ceiling outlets for lights. Two (2!) 240V outlets, one South, one East, separate cicuits. An outlet outside, a security light outside, what more could a girl ask for?!
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Edited 11/16/2007 12:43 am by forestgirl
Replies
what more could a girl ask for..
GFI outlets in the shop!
Well of coure they're GFI! This wasn't some moonlighting car mechanic, he's a real "live" electrician, did everything to code. Friend of a friend offered to do the wiring for less$$ but I passed. Don't like to mess around with the juice, better to have someone with a license and something to lose if it's not done right. ;-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The 240V outlets aren't GFCI-protected, are they? (That would require 3-conductor cable and 4-prong plugs and outlets, used mostly with appliances that require both 240V and 120V.)
-Steve
Nope, they're not. Not losing sleep over it though.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
At least in Mich, 220 is never required to have a GFCI on it. (per the local Electrical inspector and from what I can tell the IBC 2003 and the Building Mich 2003 code books)
Doug
"Not losing sleep over it though."
I'm not saying that you should; I was just curious. There are technical issues that make GFCI on 240V circuits more difficult (and more expensive), and I was wondering whether or not any jurisdictions are requiring them.
-Steve
This wasn't some moonlighting car mechanic, he's a real "live" electrician..LOL.. I thought YOU did it! Sorry.
Well, you sound like one HOT gal now. Congrats.....................It really is a pain to have to constantly be unplugging one tool to plug in another over and over.
Well, I would ask for 20A outlets every four feet but for doorways, and all on separate circuits on 12ga; a separately switched ceiling outlet for an air filter; outlets on the posts in the center of the shop; all outlets on a subpanel with cutoff switch not feeding the lighting; LED backup lighting; ... that's what I did. :)
Residential code is not good enough for a woodworking shop with power tools, but even code should say you need an outlet every six feet. Extension cords for stationary power tools are wrong for so many reasons. Do your quad outlets at least use two circuits with separate bundles?
Andy
Boy, some of you guys are real wet blankets. I'm happy as a clam with my new power grid, LOL.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
It sounds like a real improvement! I wish I could get my electrician back over to my shop. I may end up doing some of the stuff myself--now that's scary!
Dustin
Can you find another electrician? "My guy" actually has at least 3 2-man crews working for him. They do the zillion-dollar homes on the waterfront, and other more elegant projects, but were very responsible and reliable when it came to wiring this funky garage I call My Shop. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
> Boy, some of you guys are real wet blankets. I'm happy as a clam with my new power grid, LOL.I have trouble processing rhetorical questions. :) Andy
What more could a Girl ask for ? How about a sweet little hydro-electric plant in the back yard ?
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Not enough 240V outlets, I'm just a weekend warrior and I have five tools that require 220/240. So as to not be any kind of blanket, congrats on the move to the 21st century! Anything you can do to take away little annoyances is always a good thing.
mousejockey
I agree as you cannot have too many 240 volt outlets. I have four 240 volt machines and have to install another 240 volt outlet for a cyclone dust collector this winter.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
As near as I can tell, for a hobbiest like me, the only tool that possibly must be 240V would be a cabinet saw, which I don't have yet. Everything else is 120 or an optional 240V. I had two 240's put in, one for my table saw (which is a contractor saw and can be rewired to 240) and my dust collector which I may or may not rewire.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Congrats on the new Juice! I have two 240's. One I have the dust collector on, and the second one is shared between the 17" BS, and the Griz 1023. Both called for a 20A circuit and the odds of me attempting to use the BS and TS at the same time are nil, so That works greate for me. If you can run your stuff at 220, it will help. You don't get any more power, but its easier on the motors. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
>If you can run your stuff at 220, it will help. You don't get any more power, but its easier on the motors.I can see how its easier on the power cord and switch, but how is it easier on the motor? Does it spin up faster? Has this been measured? Andy
"I can see how its easier on the power cord and switch, but how is it easier on the motor? Does it spin up faster? Has this been measured? "
Andy, I'll give you a real brief answer, but if you send me an e-mail, I'll respond with a very techical artical that puts it in easy to understand terms.
Terms:
1 HP = 746 Watts
Amps = Watts/Volts
Watts = measurement of power used in a circuit at 100% efficiency
In very basic terms, when I said it does not give you more power, I meant that a motor if 120 is converted to 240, the amps it draws goes down (volts go up Amps go down and watts stay the same) i.e. no more power (HP). Amps (w/v)is the flow of current that goes through the motor. The lower the amps the lower the heat that the current flow will draw and if you can lower the heat on a motor, you will extend its life. Thats why the higher the amp rating the larger the copper conductor is required in your house wiring, and using too small a conductor will cause the wiring to get hot and potentially cause a fire. Take my 3hp table saw for example, it pulls aproximately 18 amps at 240 (9 amps off each leg in my panel). If that was running on 120 (single conductor & neutral) that would pull 36 amps(I'm using this number for explination only). Imagine the size wire required to support that load. Running 240 also helps spread the load in your panel by spreading the load across both buss's instead of pulling off one leg. Hope this helps. Take care.
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Edited 11/17/2007 9:58 pm by bones
Edited 11/17/2007 10:00 pm by bones
"The lower the amps the lower the heat that the current flow will draw and if you can lower the heat on a motor, you will extend its life."
You're right as far as lower current in a given piece of wire means less heat, but switching a motor from 120V to 240 does not reduce the current in the motor windings. All it does is rearrange the two windings from parallel to serial. Let's say you have a motor that draws 20A at 120V, and we rewire it so that it draws 10A at 240V. The attached sketch shows the two arrangements. In both cases, each winding sees 10A at 120V, and the heat dissipated in the motor is the same.
The real advantage of going from 120V to 240V is in the supporting wiring and components (power cord, building wiring, circuit breakers, etc.). Basically, for a given power requirement, raising the voltage (within reason) and lowering the current means less expensive support wiring and components.
-Steve
This argument (the effect of switching a motor from 120V to 240V [or 115V to 230V or 110V to 220V]) is second only to that of Ford v. Chevy in the intensity of discussion provoked. Tooooooo funny! This thread should hit 75 posts in no time.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Bones, Drat, Steve beat me to it. I had this conversation a week ago with two other electrical engineers slash amateur woodworkers (I is one -- you can tell by the grammar skills). When I explained the current in each winding doesn't change, they looked puzzled for a moment and then lost interest in the fight. :) I wasn't trying to reel you in; I've seen this debate so many times that I honestly want to know if there is *another* reason or just the misunderstanding of how motors work. Since my AC motor theory courses were a long time ago, you better send the article. Neglecting any drop at the motor terminals, inside the motor, there should be no difference in current per wire or total heat generated. I have not rewired any of my equipment for that reason. If there is still good reason to go to the effort and install more 240v outlets, I'd be open to learning it. > Take my 3hp table saw for example, it pulls aproximately 18 amps at 240 (9 amps off each leg in my panel). Wrt your house wiring, I urge you to be very careful with calculations like this. An 18A motor at 240V will force your wiring to carry 18A on each leg in the panel. It only uses the two hot wires which each carry 18A. No offence, but this is why I urge woodworkers to get an electrician to do their wiring like The Girl did (is Lataxe-speak ok here?). Andy
"An 18A motor at 240V will force your wiring to carry 18A on each leg in the panel."
To elaborate on that for a moment, for bones's benefit: The reason is that the split goes "the other way." A circuit that's supplying 18A at 240V is supplying 18A at 120V (with respect to neutral) on each leg, not 9A at 240V on each leg.
(Aside: The computation for 3-phase motors is a little different. That's a topic for another thread....)
-Steve
"(is Lataxe-speak ok here?)" You bet!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
well i'm jealous, I've got 4 real outlets (all in one corner) plus two that are a light bulb socet to plug converter, three incadecent lightbulbs, tho on the same splitter on the "fake" outlet, and another lightbulb hanging from an extensioncord. what's even better is that I am always just about to hit me head on them because the ceiling is about 6 feet mabey a few inches more. yeah it's pimped out.
Edited 11/24/2007 12:04 am ET by andyfew322
You have my sympathies, Andy. Ain't it a drag?!
To be honest, I did have one 240 box (outlet not yet installed) before the big project, but it was in a corner, above the counter, in an area I would never put a tool. Too funny.
Right now, I'm still walking in the door and poking around for the wrong switch to turn the lights on. Think I can get used to the new layout though, LOL! Just to keep me from getting too satisfied with myself, the spirits arranged for my pellet stove to quit working right. It's 38° out there!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Right now, I'm still walking in the door and poking around for the wrong switch to turn the lights on.How about one of them ceiling fans with a light and a REMOTE control?Fan speed AND light dimmer!
I will have been in my new house for a year next week, and I am still figureing out some of the switches. Sad part is I designed the house my self and My Dad, My buddy and I wired all the switches so you would think I would remember but.....
Doug
"...my self and My Dad, My buddy and I wired all the switches so you would think I would remember...." Who knows, Doug, maybe that makes it harder because your mind has all of those "options" in your subconscious, confusicating things!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Could be I remember standing in the building off and on for a week or two before we started wireing it (while the other roughing was going on) and working out best ways to wire this and that and the other thing. Now I look back and wonder "why did we not do...."
Doug
Jamie
Good for you. You made me laugh with this thread because I instantly remember my first shop, which was in my garage. I had one outlet, which was a 15 amp, 120 volt duplex, and NO lightswitch. I had to plug the cord in and out of the duplex in order to have light, and I ran an extension cord through the back service door into the garage/shop to have an extra outlet for tools (it was on a different circuit.) That house only had a 60 amp service panel, and it was already over extended by the house.
Enjoy your new improvements.
Jeff
Wow, that place really was in the Dark Ages, wasn't it?! ;-) What helped make this upgrade possible was that hubby had the electric improved several years ago when he upgraded the house panel to...hmmmm, what? 200 amps maybe?....and had the old panel put into the shop. It was a "split bus" whatever that is. The crew put a main breaker in it so that I can now shut the whole thing down with one flick of the wrist.
I solved the lack of a door-side light switch by getting one of those Stanley heavy-duty 4-outlet boxes and mounting it next to the door at shoulder height and plugging one of the fluorescents into it. At least then I could pretend I had a light swtich, LOL. It'w weird walking around out there now without all those cords hanging and crawling around.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
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