I could really use some expert advice
My wife and I are fortunate to retire early. We sold our home in Miami, FL and bought in Statesboro, GA. Our new home has a walk out basement and I have been able to claim just over 900 sq ft for my shop. I have to navigate 4 beam support columns. The supports make a square about 8’ by 8’, naturally right in the middle of everything.
I am trying to find information on three subjects. First question is regarding sound proofing the ceiling. The ceiling is 8 ft but the HVAC runs right through the middle of everything. I have read so much about sound proofing that I have developed paralysis by analysis. Could some one please plum me up on soundproofing.
The next subject is what size can my equipment be. Fortunately, the dust collection will fit nicely in a square room stubbed for a second bath. So with dust collection out of the way, how big can my table saw, jointer, planer, band saw, drill press and router table be while including an open end drum sander. I am not going to buy a lathe. I have 5 large windows and a partly glass exterior door. I plan to run two rows of LED can lights every 6 ft. I hope this will be adequate.
Lastly is my budget, we had originally allocated $15,000 for tools. Unfortunately, I never thought to look at the fuse box. Turns out we have nob and tube, so we have scheduled a complete re-wire of our home. Now my budget is $11,500. This needs to includes everything. I did find a fantastic deal on almost a thousand board ft of red oak which I will use for my bench. I assume oak is okay. The boards are all 2 x 6 and 10 ft long. This is not part of the budget.
I would really appreciate and good sound advice. I have attached a photo of the basement.
Replies
Congratulations on retirement!
Perhaps not final answers, but some thoughts/tips:
-variable densities of materials makes for good soundproofing. A layer of Rockwool and rigid foam in the ceiling bays, furring strips running across to create an airgap, and then finishing with sheetrock would be my solution.
-It's more about shop layout than tool size. If you had 300sf, it might be different, but I see no reason a cabinet saw, bench, jointer, etc wouldn't fit, even with your post situation. Work with it rather than against it. See Mike Pekovich's shop with the central tool island (and half the space), and Christian Becksvoort's incorporation of his shop's support beam and stairs. With good layout, those posts won't matter, if anything, they'll make it easier to pipe power and dust to and from the main tools. Draw up the room to scale on graph paper, make some cut-outs for all your tools, and spend a while moving em about. My shop layout is perfect for me and nothing like what I originally thought it would need to be.
-Skip the can lights and go for 4' LEDs.
-A bunk of 8/4 oak doesn't sound like a picnic to mill without 3hp tools, but it certainly wouldn't be the end of the world. The DW735 is a fantastic planer for the size and price, and will roll happily out of the way after all the long boards are through.
If that amount of wood will take you a couple years to go through and after that it will be boxes and some normal sized furniture, I would save few thousand bucks by getting the DeWalt planer, a 14" bandsaw with increased resaw, and a straight knife jointer. I'm not certain I understand the emphasis on a drum sander, but it sounds like it will get some use, and helical cutter heads are expensive.
-How you use that budget is way up in the air. $11k will go a lot further with Grizzly than Sawstop and Powermatic, but no amount of saved money can make up for tools that aren't enjoyable to use, but that's personal. I don't have the patience for used tools and don't enjoy using budget tools, so I buy the best I can afford and fill in the secondary tools as need and money arises. A 3hp PCS, 15" bandsaw, stationary jointer and planer, and 16/32 knocks your budget down very quickly, so if $11k is all you want to spend, period, forever, you'll need to go used or dial back the milling machines.
-Oak will make a fine workbench, but I would consider filling the grain and/or sealing the top, and/or avoid doing any metal work around it, the porous rings can get gunky quick. If the top can be r/q instead of plain sawn, that would help too.
Whatever you end up with, make sure it brings you joy and motivates you to work wood.
Sample tool prices:
$3K tablesaw
$1.5k ea bandsaw, jointer, planer, drum sander
$500 used or benchtop drill press
$1k router table w/lift
$500 clamps and plywood
$2k dust collector and pipe
Over budget, but there's trimming to be done there based on the kind of work you intend to do. Smaller bandsaw, combo jointer/planer or 735 smaller jointer, more used, no router lift, hand plane and ros instead of drum sander . . . endless different configurations. Best of luck!
Hi, I really enjoyed reading your comprehensive detailed answer. I am not at all against used gear. Today I got Craigslist CL, with this app I can control my search area far and beyond what you can normally do. I’ll kept you posted on my progress.
Congrats on your retirement and that’s a very nice shop space. I’d look into combining those four support post into two and run a separate circuit for your DC.
Conventional wisdom will favor a Sawstop and I personally don’t recommend anything Grizzly for your new shop. Upgrade to spiral/shelix cutterhead jointers and planers if you can. Expect long wait and delivery times on your new machines.
I have a small basement shop with good (double drywall finished ceiling) soundproofing and spend as much as you can there to keep everyone long-term happy as you run tools.
Great advice, the SawStop is already in the cart. It’s going to be a long time before it comes. It’s okay, gives me plenty of time to sound proof.
I can give some inexpert musings. Hope it helps.
Soundproofing is REALLY hard and technical.
personally I would not bother at first, but rather see how loud things really are, and if they cause problems or not. Your Dust Collector is most likely to cause annoyance as it will be on way longer than other items. If you don't have one already, try running a vacuum cleaner in the space and see if the noise is intrusive. The noise level is similar.
I'm no sound engineer but have researched sound proofing extensively for my medical practice - If you do want to soundproof then you will get the most bang for your buck with sheets of OSB screwed to the ceiling. Hard, heavy, dense materials reflect and absorb sound well. next level would be to laminate a dense rubber sheet on the back of the OSB (say floor rubber tiles) and perhaps to pack the space above with batting. Final level would be layers of batting and dense plasterboard. No gaps, ideally.
Personally, I would invest the cash in good underlay and carpet for the room above. That has the advantage of being 'house' spending from the perspective of your significant other, whereas soundproofing is 'shop' spending....
As for the tools...
I would start with good lighting and the dust collection setup. If you are going to be doing a lot of work then this is essential and it can be more expensive than you think. You will also need 220V outlets, some with high current capacity - up to 20 amps is prudent. It's easier and cheaper to do this right at the start, especially since you have that rewire being done anyway. You may need to draw as much as 30 amps at 220V with just the DC and a big machine running so beefy wiring will be needed.
As for the tools. Don't spend it all at once!
Take your time. Relax. Decide what you want to do first. Buy in haste and repent at leisure.
I have a much smaller shop - 430sqft more or less in a challenging L shape with a big pillar in the way too, though I have an upstairs timber store and half the shop has a 15' ceiling. I fit all the tools you suggest and more, plus an 8x4 assembly table in to my space. Some of them are huge - I have an enormous table saw and am upgrading from 8" to a 16" jointer/thicknesser combo soon.
I would suggest only two definite new purchases which you will be very unlikely to regret.
1. Nova voyager drill press. I don't have this but do want one. It's on the list... Too new for many to be available second hand, but friends who have them rave about the quality and utility.
2. Triton TRA001 router. Buy one instead of an expensive router lift. If you take the plunge spring out, you can mount this beast in a cabinet and never take it out. It's got the power to handle everything you will ever throw at it and is specifically designed for table mounting. You can adjust the height from above the table with a supplied crank and tool change is a snip as the spindle locks when it's raised above the table. Pro tip - remove the plunge spring AND the cap, as the cap tends to collect dust making bit changes hard. I don't miss mine...
As for the rest, with that budget, you've got maybe 9K left. You will be struggling to buy machines worthy of that shop new. Given the choice though, I'd buy a nice wide spiral head planer-thicknesser which you will probably have to get new and cost up to 8K and go cheap on the table saw and band saw. Why? these tools are accurate even if old and cheap and are easy to maintain. Planers and jointers are big time-hogs. It takes me two hours to change the two knives on my old deWalt 8 inch and get it spot on afterwards. If the tables get out of co-plane then it's half a day of backache and swearing. Buying a new one that is better designed was a no-brainer for someone who is time-poor.
If you post some more info about your current skill level, what you like to do now, what you would like to be able to do and whether or not there might be more money available over time, you might get more pertinent suggestions.
I appreciate your advice. As I mentioned, I am going to purchase a wall mounting 220V dust collector. Since the room it’s going in is closed off, I will be able to get a good fell for how the sound proofing is going. I agree with you on the wide format planer and jointer. A friend has an app that checks all of Craigslist. If I can find these tools second hand I may be able to get them inside the budget.
This is great advice. I am actually happy to hear that others are in disrepair when it comes to sound proofing. As far as my skill set, I was my GC on a home build near Detroit. I built a 30 x 40 shop, I was really gathering skills until my wife died. At that point it was just a fire sale. I didn’t care about the house or shop. I sold everything and just gave up on it. Now, I am very happily married and as previously stated, we are both retired and heading north. Thank you for all of your advice.
I'll have to disagree with Rob on several points.
First sound control relies on 3 main points, absorbtion, blockage, and isolation. He is correct in that dense materials will block sound but by screwing it directly to the floor joist you will actually turn it into one giant sound radiator.
My recommendation is to start by packing the joists bays with sound batting available in rolls similar to thermal insulation. If you can't find sound batting in your area regular thermal insulation(without moisture barrier) will work especially if it's over stuffed which isn't easy to do without attaching a hard surface to the joists. This will take care of the absorbtion part of the equation and is the easy part.
The second part is a little tougher and will go hand in hand with the third part. Isolation, there are many commercial products designed to uncouple or isolate two surfaces for the purpose of sound control one of the simplest is simple metal Z strips. Metal furring strips shaped like a Z profile where one flange is screwed to the joists and your surface material is screwed to the other, like attaching drywall to metal studs. Because no fasteners go directly through the surface material into the floor joists the hard surface is decoupled from the floor joists and will dampen sound.
The third part the hard dense surface to block and reflect sound. Ordinary gypsum drywall works 5/8" is better than 1/2" but there is special ($$) sound absorbing drywall available as well. The draw back to drywall in your installation is that with less than 8' ceilings you will be banging into it frequently, spoken from a man who knows, my ceiling is 94" and we all know how drywall stands up to rough use. Rob's suggestion of a dense material like OSB in theory would work in reflecting sound and take a beating, but at the expense of making your shop several decibels louder which is never a good idea and low ceiling shops by there very nature are louder to begin with. The best suggestion I can make to you would be Homasote, it's a dense cellulose sheet product that can take some abuse and provides good sound absorbing properties. For maximum protection you could face the Homasote with 1/2" drywall for even more sound control. While the drywall would still be subject to dents and divots the Homasote backing should prevent major break throughs.
Now after that significant amount of typing, I will offer this bit of advice, Don't do it. You are buying an obviously older home you have no experience with, any hard ceiling you put up now may be need to be removed or cut into in the next couple of years as you find additional repairs are need or are simply remodeling to make your new house your home. My suggestion is put in the insulation and staple a heavy plastic sheeting, on second thought plastic may trap too much moisture in a humid environment such as yours a breathable barrier like Tyvek would be better, you don't want mold and mildew to form, over the joist to keep the dust off and wait a couple of years to see if there is a need to access the nervous system of most houses, the basement ceiling, then if you are confident that your house is set, go for it. The other advantage in waiting is material costs may have return to more sane levels.
Tools will have to wait for another post but that alcove screams for a work bench, Great window light and plenty of wall space for tools.
Excellent advice, thank-you for sharing.
I'm going to come down somewhere in between esch and Rob. Both answers are valuable, but I think it depends on the desired outcome.
In my past life I was a recording engineer and wound up building a lot of isolation booths with varying degrees of success, expectations, and budgets.
To me, the best bang for your buck is in adding mass between you and where you don't want the sound to be. For years I added OSB panels between the studs and 5/8-in drywall because that's what we had the budget for. It certainly helps. If you can add rockwool sound barrier between the bays even better. You want to add as much mass as possible. Two layers of 1/2-in drywall with a healthy amount of "green glue" (google it) is better than 5/8-in. drywall.
I wouldn't worry about sound bouncing back. That's why you're going to wear hearing protection. Absorption is a hard game and expensive at that.
Now, the really key to keeping your sound issue in budget is buying equipment that makes less noise. From my experience Oneida's gorilla series dust collectors are the quietest I've found. Also, machines with helical heads are FAR quieter than those with straight knives. Think about what machines are running for long periods of time and invest in quieter options there. Like Rob said, dust collector and I'll add planer.
Thank you. Again excellent t advice. It does seem like a pattern is developing.
Esch5995 and Ben have good advice. I’m not a sound engineer, but I did pay for half of my son’s degree in it. :-) He swears by green glue. I helped him turn my old woodworking shop into a recording studio, and we used a bunch. The real reason I’m posting though, is with a question. You’re getting the whole house rewired (wire, boxes, labor, panel, etc.) for $3,500?
Oh no, not at all, that’s just the shop contribution. The cost for the rewire including new panels and one in the basement. This also includes an independent circuit going to my music studio with its own grounding rod.
Oh, not for the whole house. That’s better. :-)
I have the same question and it is a concern as well. I have heard from an electrician friend all year long about the price of wire and panels are going up EVERY week. I have seen the cost and bid sheets. I strongly suggest you get that total rewire in writing immediately and confirm that the proper licenses are in place.
My 2 pennies worth - take something that'll play music loudly into the basement. Close the basement door then crank the music until you can hear it upstairs. If it has to be real loud, like jointer loud, you'll get some idea of how much soundproofing you'll need.
Great idea!
Isolation of the walls and ceiling surfaces from the studs using mass-loaded plastics or anti-vibration material like sorbothane helps a lot: https://www.sorbothane.com/
There are also isolation track systems like isotrax but it gets spendy:
https://www.soundproofcow.com/product/isotrax-soundproofing-system/
Sound does not survive material transitions well. I built my shop walls with 2x4 top & bottom plates and 2x3 studs alternating from one side to the other for a mini version of a double-stud wall. On the outside is sheetrock and on the inside is 1/2" homosote and 3/4" T&G plywood. I caulked the corners & cracks like I was air-sealing. The ceiling is sheetrock applied over massloaded vinyl strips on the joists. Pretty good results overall without really blowing the budget up.
Your big challenge will be the kettle drums of ducting running the length of the space on the ceiling. Those will be tough to isolate.
You are so right on that subject.
How dedicated are you to staying married? Seems like an easier option than all that soundproofing.
So true...
That is funny! I’m stuck her pension is bigger than mine!
These help a lot
And better yet, with bluetooth earmuffs, you can still hear the TV...
Lighting: my shop is 18x26 and I ran 3 rows of 4 fixtures, each 4' long. These are 4000 lumen LED units from Costco. So I have 12,000 lumens in 468 sf. Sometimes I think maybe another row would have been nice, but generally it has worked out just fine.
My advice is to go for a little more that you think is enough. LEDs use little power and add almost no heat to the shop, which was a problem with the previous shop in summer.
Seconded, well, almost.
It's surprising how much power the LEDs use.
I have a single 200W fitting in my high space and 6 50W fittings. It's 'only' 500W, and bright as day of course, but 500W adds up.
Although they use way less for the same light output, and so you can put more in, the power usage turns out to be significant...
If you're open to other styles of lighting, my shop has Barilla 8' LED lights from Amazon. I ordered a pack of 10; eight for the main shop and two for the loft upstairs. The main shop is 380 sq ft covered by 4 rows of two lights which link together. Measured with a light meter, I have four times the brightness of a typical classroom lit with fluorescent lights.
The sound may be better dispersed by not closing off the ceiling with OSB or sheetrock; just leave the sound absorbing material exposed. Concert halls and speaker boxes work best when the walls are not parallel because of the way sound disperses. The exposed lumber will help break up the sound. If you could find office cubicle panels that are being removed from a building they are an excellent sound absorption panel and wouldn't have the drawbacks of drywall or OSB, IF the price is right.
Many of my larger tools were purchased used including the table saw with an incremental fence, the dust collector, 14" band saw, 14" drill press, scroll saw (not really needed but part of a package) and jointer. Older tools from Taiwan can be of good quality and are far better than new Chinese tools IMO. Lots of house brand tools come from Taiwan.
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