I hate finishing. I really do. I can’t tell you how many things I’ve left unfinished because I hate finishing so much.
Straight from the can tung oil, I can live with. Linseed oil, okay. But as soon as turp or mineral spirits are called for, I start to procrastinate — sometimes, for years.
I’m starting to think that I would do myself a favor by finding someone else to do my finishing. Is that going to be hard? How should I go about it?
Rp
Replies
Have you tried anything where alcohol is called for? (i.e., shellac)
Wiping poly is also fairly forgiving and more durable than oils alone.
I used shellac for something a couple years ago. Oh, yeah, to make filler from sawdust. It didn't work very well.Say more, please. Should I dive in and give some of my work a good shellacking?I never stain anything.And wiping poly? Straight from the can or thinned?
I'm far from a finishing expert. But I have found shallac and wiping poly to be very forgiving finishing media. Shallac can be mixed up to various consistencies - thinnish is great for wiping on thin coats - it drys very fast - the new coat thins and joins the old coat - it looks very nice - goes over any other finish and can be under any other finish - mistakes can easily be repaired or removed with alcohol - etc.
Wipe on poly, while not something I use much, is nice because it goes on thin and more like a traditional varnish so drips, sags, orange peel, etc. are much less likely even on vertical, turned, carved parts, etc.
Prof,I don't understand! You are willing (for someone else) to scrape away acres of sticky glue yet you are bothered greatly by the task of applying a good finish? It is the first part I don't understand because getting the finish right is the most difficult for me also. It does tire one greatly! I hate stains, too. Pore fillers are a pain also. I may try Frenchy's recipe on an item which need not be water resistant. My ancestors were predominantly those lazy Scots-Irish.The simplest finish I have found so far is Deft in a spray can. I have also tried other clear spray finishes available at Lowe's. I am abandoning the satins because the glosses look better. My results have been variable but pretty good so far.In the past, I have done all kinds of finishes including using a compressed air sprayer for varnish. It is such a mess! I just don't want to do it again. Yet we both must take pains because people notice the finish while never seeing the joinery. My neighbor said to me that the quality of the finish is the measure of a woodworker's skills. He owns furniture of unknown woods stained beyond recognition under a sprayed-on glossy finish. Of course, my feelings were hurt.A somewhat kindred spirit,Cadiddlehopper
Cadiddlehopper, you've put your finger on some aspect of my problem with finishing. I don't want the finish to have any thickness at all; I think thick finish is cheesy. So most of what I do with poly is aimed at removing as much as possible of what I put on before putting on another coat, which I'll be sure to sand through, too.Rp
Here's another metaphor. When I go out for Thai or Mexican, I order it mild. Others at the table order it hot. I know that chiles and peppers were used traditionally to hide the fact that the food itself was not very fresh, to say the least. So too much spice "tastes" like spoiled food to me.I think the same holds for finish. When I see a piece with a deep finish, I wonder what's wrong with it? How deep below the finish does the particle board start?Now, as it happens, I don't have that reaction when I've seen Sam Maloof's chairs in museums. In fact, I get rubbery-kneed when I see his finishes. But I've never had any luck with Sam-in-a-can from Rockler.Rp
Riverprof and ptu,
Frenchy is the shellac evangelist here. I thought I was, but no one can keep up with his enthusiasm for the stuff. And he is absolutely right. No finish could be, at the same time, more forgiving, yet the finest finish the Good Lord intended for us to put on that other magnificent gift from him, wood.
If you can't buy it locally, order shellac flakes and disolve them in alcohol. Alcohol in all its forms is the easiest solvent, other than water to buy.
Shellac can be applied with the finest spray equipment or a broom, and everything in between. Every finish must be abraded in some manner as the finishing process procedes and shellac is the easiest substance to sand or rub out.
Give it a chance, you can't go wrong.
Rich
First thing I would suggest is getting one or both of the following books. Jeff Jewitt's Taunton Complete Illustrated Guide to Finishing and/or Bob Flexner's Understanding Finishing. Either will give you some basic info about various types of finishes, when to use which and then, how to apply it.
When I teach basic finishing, I teach three processes. For darker woods I teach an oil/varnish (Watco, Minwax Tung Oil Finish or a homebrew). This is an easy in-the-wood finish for woods like cherry, walnut, mahogany. It leaves a soft gloss and you can see and feel the grain. A second, more protective finish for dark wood is a light wiping with boiled linseed oil (completely wiped dry after 5 minutes), followed by an amber shellac and then 3-4 coats of a thinned wiping non-poly varnish. Finally, for light colored woods where you do not want to see the yellowing imparted by oil based finishes, I teach the use of waterborne acrylic finishes which are water clear and do not yellow over time.
Practise these finishes on scrap wood until you can do them correctly. They will serve you for 90% of any finishing you need to do and are relatively foolproof. Finishing is not hard but it does take some knowledge and practice.
Remember, it's the finish the gets the oohs and aahs, not the joinery.
Thanks, Howie. I have the books. They haven't made want to do the task.(If I had been willing to take a course in chemistry, I'd have a second Bac. degree in geology. Instead, I've only got a BA in philosophy. Philosophy may get murky, but it is not sticky.)<Remember, it's the finish the gets the oohs and aahs, not the joinery>You know, I never thought about that. And I'm not sure, either. I'd rather have Dicky Betts' nasty old 57 goldtop 'Paul than a shiny new one.Rp
Howie,
Where do you teach?
PG
i hate finishing too. it's good know there are other like minded people. lately i've made more things out of cherry, walnut and antique pine. my finish of choice has become linseed oil wiped on, then wax. very simple and painless. i also did the "finish in one day" thing with a skim coat of oil and then shellac followed by wax. my problem is that i really like to touch my wood. furniture pieces that is. i often sand thru 600 first, which is also a pain, but the soft results with oil are worth it. the one thing i really wanted to throw out there for the one or two people who will try it is these 5 inch finish rub out disks that mount on your random orbit sander. the grits go from around 800 to 15 or 20 thousand. they're slightly paded to protect the finish. i've used them with poly and shellac. they take a mediocre finish job to velvety soft very quickly. in addition you can control the sheen by using the higher numbered grits for more shine. from there i like to use wax and buff it for a great feel. i buy them from woodcraft for about $15 a set. they seem to re-use fairly well too.
I am a little intimated when it comes time for the finishing process. I just completed a cherry wall unit. I am looking for a deep rich low luster finish that will bring out the natural grain that is easy to apply. Any suggestions. Please help.
Amox,
Please seriously consider shellac..
If like me you can't paint worth a darn leave runs streaks brush marks and holidays (skipped areas).. then shellac is your baby!
I'll go over once again the process that even complete clutzes can do nice work with.
A deep rich finish that while shiney doesn't have that plastic look that polyurethanes have.. Satin finish was invented to deal with the overly plastic look of most modern finishes..
Shellac has been used for nearly 5000 years, it's the finish of choice for mot antiques because of it's beauty, depth and durability not to mention the fact that it can be "fixed" if mistakes occur or you somehow damage it.. Fixed so easy you'll be tempted to damage it just to show off your repair skills..
IT's safe as houses (every pill you take has been coated with shellac so it has to be safe)
You can brush, pad, spray, or apply it with a broom if you want.. I kid that I could apply it in a sandstorm with a brick but never had a chance to prove it ;-)
The magic happens because each coat melts the previous coats.. so mistakes early on get wiped away..
If you'd like further details you can go back to the start of this thread and save me a bunch of typing or ask and I''ll gladly repeat.
Thank you Frenchy, I will give it a try and let you know how it comes out . One other question . What is the best environment to work in when using shellac , Temp. ,ect. and is their anything I can do to enhance / control color ?
Thanks again for your help.
Amox
amox,
I've painted in a wide variety of conditions, all indoors,, shellac doesn't hold up in outside applications..If it's 50 degees outside and I have the windows open and the furnace off (just to be safe, I've actaully done a lot of shellac work with the furnace on without a single problem but better safe than sorry) the house will quickly drop to that 50 degee range, I've also shellaced in 90 degree heat, I actaully had a minor problem with that, I was sweating so much that drops of sweat landed and left white dots a few days later.. I had to wipe off the white dots with denatured alcohol and reshellac. It took all of ten minutes to repair..
What color are you trying to achieve?
I always go for the lightest color I can to show off the wood to it's best advantage and really allow the grain to pop out.. So I use Zinzzler's clear. It has a slightly warm coloring to it which imparts a hint of yellow.. You can buy darker flakes to get darker colors but I've never done so, there are plenty here with more experiance in buyng and preparing flakes.. I will suggest that you never go above a one pound cut.. (one pound of flakes per gallon of denatured alcohol) It's far better to slop on thin watery coats then trying to carefully brush on a thick coat..
Thank you for responding so quickly .
I am working with cherry , as you know it tens to darken with age. What I am trying to do is bring together all of the veryations that are natural to the wood ( light and dark shades ) yielding a more uniform look. My only choice would be to bring the lighter shades down to meet the darker ones. Do I stain first and then shallac or mix color into the shellac?
Amox
amox,
Oh, the age old early wood / heart wood issue with Cherry, (or black walnut)
I don't know!
I've never had the problem.. My sawmill carefully trims all the early wood off.
Here's what I do know.. If you have black walnut and want to turn early wood brown you can use a steamer or even just a steam iron.. A few minutes exposure turns the early wood brown.
Perhaps there is something like that you can do with cherry?
Thank you for your help.
Amox
What is your opinon of a Plyurethane Satin Gel Finish . I just happened to see in Rockler woodworking & hardware . It sounds like it would be easy to apply.
What do you think.
Amox
amox,
Polyurethanes are softer and less durable than shellac.. in addition they all tend to look plastic compared to shellac. Thus they sell a lot of satin polyurethanes. while it doesn't look plastic it doesn' have any depth or richness to it..
Polyurethanes also take much longer to dry..
Nah I've used enough stuff to know that the fastest easiest and best finish is shellac..
Try it you will like it!
I made some samples with shellac last night . I used Zinzzler clear . What products do you use . Is there any presealing required prior to starting the shellacing process . I assume that the first coat of shellac is the sealing coat . I just had to ask the question .
Thank you
Amox
amox,
you are right the first coat is the sealing coat.. did you over thin it as I suggested?
Frenchy,
Maybe I am showing my lack of knowledge on this (finishing is my weak point) but I was under the impression that Poly was a more durable finish then Shelac. I mean Shelac looks better and if it is more durable then Poly then what is the point of Poly?
Doug Meyer
Doug Meyer,
I'm sorry, I missed your question earlier,
What is the point of polyurethanes? Well if you want someything for outside use you cn use polurethanes or Varnish.. Can't use shellac.. won't hold up to weather..
Then someone saw shiney stuff outside and the paint companies said sure you can use it,, in fact we'll make satin finishes to cover up the fact that you're just painting plastic over the wood..
It is this plastic effect that I figured would be more durable.
So I guess the question is where to use it. I have used it on tables (people in my house always seam to set wet things on the tables) and I have used it on the window trim in the house but now I am wondering if that is needs. I do have it on the windows also (stained wood on the inside, aluminum on the outside) and I have used it on the step at the top of the stairs.
Now I wonder about the window trim. But being as the windows all swing (read open out) into the weather I think this is a good use as they my get a bit wet if it starts raining while they are open. So being as they are on the window I guess to keep the look I need to keep it on the window trim. So if it is on the trim on the outside walls then I guess I need to use it on the trim on the other walls as you would see the difference.
Oh well I guess I will live with it. But it is an interesting question of where does it make since to use poly.
Doug
DougMeyer.
My windows all have shellac on them on the interior.. I'm not terribly carefull about closing windows in the rain so sooner or later I'll have to wipe off a few and reshellac it..
Hmmm..... it takes me all of maybe 3 minutes to do and a couple more to scrape the shellac off the glass when dried.. I suppose when I'm all through with all three coats and and plus wiping off the old stuff I'll have maybe ten minutes per window total time..
if it happens twice per year on say 6 windows each time It still won't be a big deal.. (plus think of th time I'll save by telling the wife that I'll dust the next time it rains <G>
A vendor tried to get a local store to carry it. The store manager asked why it was a gel because you want a finish to penetrate into the wood before building a film finish. The vendor replied that he was exactly right and that's why he always thinned it with mineral spirits before using.The local store manager sent the vendor packing and termed it a solution in search of a problem.If you want an easy to apply finish, thin any varnish 50-50 with mineral spirits (more or less according to your taste) and wipe it on.
Thank you . That anwsers my question. I will go with shellac. But first please tell me what the difference is between shellac, and varnish. Please forgive my ignorance .
Amox
ShellacShellac is a natural resin, a secretion of an Asian bug (lac bug) that is collected, refined and processed. This resin is dissolved in alcohol and becomes a finish. This is an evaporative finish. Once the alcohol evaporates away, you are left with the shellac resins. Re-introducing alcohol will redisssolve the resins again. This is the basis of the amalgamating refinishers such as Formby's.VarnishVarnish starts as other resins (alkyd, urethane, or phenolic are the most common ones) combined with oil (linseed or tung, are common ones) under controlled conditions and heat. Once processed, it's a different substance called varnish. This is analogous to putting all the ingredients for bread together and baking it. You can tell that a load of bread might be whole wheat, white or rye, but you can't point out the yeast, water, oil, sugars and flours any more. If you will, it's a different thing.This varnish is too thick to use as-is so carriers, or thinners, are added, generally mineral spirits, to make a brushing or wiping consistency.Other additives may be present to accelerate curing (driers), provide some light resistance (UV protectors), or to produce lower levels of sheen (flatteners) such as semi-gloss or satin.When you apply varnish, first the carrier evaporates away. This is called "flashing off." Then the remaining varnish reacts with oxygen to polymerize, or form long molecule chains. This is called "curing" as distinct from "drying." This process can take several weeks. This is called a "reactive finish." Reintroducing the thinner to a cured reactive finish has no effect -- it will not dissolve it again. Just like concrete is made with water, but once cured, it won't dissolve in water again. (An analogy, but a different chemical process has occured).Just a little peek at the applied chemistry helps understand why things work the way they do and takes the voodoo mystery out of it. Flexner does a great job of explaining all this in his "Understanding Wood Finishing" book.Hope that helps.
Edited 1/17/2007 12:16 pm ET by byhammerandhand
Thank you very much. That helps me understand the two products.
What would you suggest using on a cherry wall unit / entertainment center measuring about 10'-0" x 7'-4" . Carcase is cherry plywood, face framing, doors, crown, and base mouldings are solid cherry . I am looking for a low luster finish that will enhance the natural beauty of cherry while asisting in providing a uniform color.
Do I need to use any type of filler prior to shellac.
I have been to use minwax's natural stain and finish with a satin polyurthene.
Would shellac be a better way to go ?
Sincerely
Amox
Edited 1/17/2007 1:18 pm ET by amox
Edited 1/17/2007 1:22 pm ET by amox
There is no best, only tradeoffs.Shellac would do fine. It only comes in "gloss" usually, so if you are going to build up a bit of a finish, you'll need to rub it down to get a satin finish.A pretty foolproof finish for what you describe is a shop-made "Danish Oil." Take about equal parts varnish, boiled linseed oil, and mineral spirts. Stir and rag on. Wipe of the excess before it starts to get tacky. A couple of coats of this provides a low luster, in the wood, bring out the figure finish.I am not sure what you attempting to do with Minwax Natural. I think its purpose is to thin down their regular color lines to make a dilute stain. By itself I don't think it does much as it's mostly thinner with a splash of binder.If I am going to varnish something, I thin down the first two coats 50-50 with mineral spirits and let it become the sealer coats.
Thank you for your reply . I have a bit of a problem . I went too the expense of using cherry ,because I like it . However this piece is for my daughter and she is expecting something darker in finish . How do I darken the cherry without losing its beauty . I understand that you can not have it both ways . I am thinking of using a reddish/brown stain finished with shellac or varnish . I would greatly appreciate your thoughts regarding this matter.
Thank you
Amox
Before resorting to coloring the cherry, let the piece get a good suntan. That is put it in direct sunlight (outside is best) and turn it all directions so it gets sun evenly. A week of this (even a few days) will show a noticeable darkening. (If there is a place that won't show, cover a small spot with tape to reveal how much it has darkened in such a short time. Show this to your "customer", simulating the effect of a clear finish with a little naptha or mineral spirits. You may find that she can be sold on the natural.
If not, I prefer a little dye to provide the color, because it is more even than oil based stains. Then finish with garnet shellac to further enhance the color. Be sure to make the color at the lighter end of the acceptable range, because the cherry will continue to darken.
Thank you for your help. I will try it.
Amox
How do you apply a wood dye?
Amox
I use a aniline dye mixed with water. The first step is to raise the grain. Just wipe lightly with a damp cloth and let dry. Best to use distilled water, since tap water may contain minerals that effects the color. When dry, smooth the raised grain with very light sanding with 220 grit. If you over sand new grain will raise.
You determine how dark the wood will become by varying the concentration of the dye, not by how you apply it. You must make tests on scrap. I use a rag, or a sponge and flood on the dye being just neat enough to avoid drips and runs on areas I won't be able to quickly wipe. Then wipe off any excess and let dry.
When the dye dries, the color may look very strange, but when you apply a top coat the proper colors reemerge. (You can see how it will look by wiping with some naptha.) There may be some raised grain. While you can sand it before applying a top coat that can be tricky, so I usually deal with any additional raised grain after the first coat of finish has stiffened the fibers.
Amox,
I love the cherry too. I have been using Transfast water based analine dyes on cherry. It mixes with water and costs about $8. I mix about 1 cup full at a time. I lay on 3 seperate dyes:
1. Very light diluted Cardinal RED
2. Burnt Sienna
3. Cherry
Lightly sand after each application as SteveSchoene points out<!----><!----> . The RED gives it a very subtle warmth. Sienna adds some body and the cherry adds a bit of brown. IT looks like $h*t before you apply finish, but when its finished, its amazing (the sienna imparts some yellow and red and greens).
After you mix your dye, dip a cotton rag in it and allow to dry. The color will "stratify" and seperate into the individual color components. ITs very interesting.
The alcohol dyes are gaining favor because they are compatable with more finishes (so they say). ROckler carries both.
Keef
I finally got around to going to the big Home Depot to find shellac. There was a single can of clear. It had a small run down one side, giving me the impression that it may have been opened at one time, so I passed. Then I noticed the date on the bottom and its going to be three years pretty soon. I asked if they could check for more stock and there was none. There was also none on order.
A few stores here carry Reochem brand shellac. Does anybody have an exprience with it?
jeremy
Edited 1/21/2007 12:38 pm ET by jeremyillingworth
Hi All,
I hate finishing or at least high gloss paint. Tomorrow morning we are going to phone a customer and tell them we just can not produce the high gloss blood red paint finish they requested. We have allready phoned our designer customers and told them we are no longer offering paint on mdf. I can produce a nice paint finish in a flat and with enough effort even a semi gloss but it is too nice and the first chip or scratch the customer causes and I get a call to touch up, can not be done. I liken it to a snowfall, you wake up in the morning and the fields are covered in a blanket of snow, the first time some one walks across it one no longer sees the snow, all you see is the foot prints. When you put clears on wood (or to be more precise veneer) it has a texture and looks better in a satin finish. The modern eye preceives too nice as being made from plastic and plastic laminate manufactures are taking great pains to emboss a pore structure into their wood grains. I am not used to giving up but it is like hitting your head against a brick wall, it feels so good to stop.
Grey Glove
Hey It's me again omah, I was just wondering if you guys have ever used roofing tar mixed with paint thinners as a stain for wood?
Omah,
You can stain wood dozens of ways.. heck probably thousands of ways.. The old boil some walnut husks and apply it works if you'd like to save some money, Every fall they are free (as long as you're quicker than the squirrels)
Omah, I have never used roofing tar/solvent as a wood stain (I rarely use any kind of stain) but there have been lots of descriptions of that substance as the "secret ingredient" for many restorers and master finishers. Rich
Omah,
Roofing tar, also called asphaltum, can be used as a colorant, but not recommended as a stain on bare wood.
When used as a component in a glaze, it will impart a translucent deep golden brown tone. It is quite thick so considerable thinning is required.
You can add this thin mixture to a glaze or use it by itself as the glaze. It does add an interesting element to a color.
A word of caution though. Any color or glaze with asphaltum needs to be completely sealed ( isolated) with shellac prior to finishing. It will reactivate and pull when oil hits it again.
Peter
Thanks for sharing that information about the thined out asphaltium. I m going to try a test piece.
Good morning Frenchy.
I am just about ready to finish this cherry bookcase / entertainment center.
But before I do I would like to run one thing by you. I read something yesterday that caught my eye. Oil / varnish under shellac . I pick up a can of Minwax's natural and made few samples . The can reads that it stains & seals It does create a more uniform look in color. So i am assuming that this clear oil enhances the woods natural grain and darkens it a bit. I then wiped on a satin poly. right along side three coats of shellac . The shellac does look good . A little more natural looking.
What do you think of oils under shellac.
Amox
amox,
Normally I see shellac as the base coat in order to have the wood absorb stain evenly.. you said you got good even coverage so good for you!. Smart people tell me never to knock success!
Minwax natural is a very light oil/varnish mix with no pigment--kind of like Watco diluted even more. I don't think Minwax changes the label between natural and golden oak.
Steve Schoene,
I've used a bunch of Minwax products in the past but found that my brush tecniques were bad and the results reflected it.. I was forced to resort to spraying all of it.
The set up time and clean up time using spry equipment ment that I was only going to spray that day, no way could I tear down and clean up in time to do other things.
The speed of shellac is what sold me!
Well, I suspect a good part of the problem lay with Minwax. The contrast in brushability between a really good varnish--Behlen Rockhard, and especially the marine spar varnishes from Epifanes or Interlux is dramatic. With those you may get dust, but you have to really screw up to get brush strokes. Cheap varnishes do make you work for it, not having the flow characteristics.
Hi Frenchy
I thought I would share a couple of photos with you.
Amox
Yellow pages. Look up furniture finishing and refinishing-many businesses offer this service.
Riverproof,
I used to feel exactly as you do.. runs,, drips, missed areas, all the screw ups in the world were my specialty. I got more finish on me than the project.
I could eventually get a decent finish after I spent about a bazillion hours of tedious work.
Then I saw the light!
It's called shellac!
But ya gotta do it wierd, strange, scary strange even!
Do it this way and you will get a great big old ship eatin' grin across your face that your wife will suspect you for..
Go to Home Depot (I told you scary strange) Buy a can of Zinzzers Bullseye shellac. It's yellow says clear on the bottom.
Go back and get at least a gallon of denatured alcohol.. (if you only bought a quart of shellac) at least two gallons if you bought a gallon and I usually buy three..
Now pry the lid off and stir the stuff around a bit.. (the shellac actually settles out so you gotta remix it). 30 seconds seems about enough time if you are vigerous.
If you want to minimise the follow up work buy a really good paint brush but way bigger than you think you will need.. Trust me, big is important. (in spite of what your wife says <G>)
Now add three parts of alcohol to one part of that shellac. Don't be stingy.. Somes good, mores better, and too much is just starting to get fun!
Now you got a watery thin mix. Here's where it gets really wierd.
You've gotta do th Indy 500 of painting.. I mean speed is everything and being careful is exactly the wrong thing to do.. Start on top and slop it on.. don't worry about runs or even coats or even covering everything..
Get 'er on and do it quick!
OK now deal with the paint brush while you wait for it to dry. Hmm, I drop my brush in the can of mix. but if you are going to wait more than the required 15 minutes it takes to dry,,....
Yes! I said 15 minutes!
You might want to clean that expensive brush you bought..
Here's how you do it.
First grab that gallon of denatured alcohol and pour some over the brush directly over the can.. Rinse off the alcohol right back into the mix that you're gonna use for the next coat.. Shake/spin it reasonably dry and grab a bottle of Windex (any brand of window cleaner works) and flood the bristles with Windex.. If you want to be careful you can wrap the brush in newspaper or the sleeve it came in, but as long as you don't get sawdust in it you're fine..
Right about now you'll run your hand over the finish and find it's already dry.
Shock!
So grab a piece of 220 grit sand paper (I like 3M's sanding sponges most of the time) and lightly scuff all the little nubs off. I spend around a second to a second and a half per sq ft. Less on large flat areas more on delicate corners.
You really are giving it a lick and a promise..
That's a good thing I promise!
right about now it's time to put the second coat on.
Remember the runs, drips, and missed areas you had? Now you're gonna correct them. You see the next coat will melt the first coat and everything blends together perfectly.
Do your Indy 500 thing again, the worst thing you can do is go slow and be careful..
It'll take longer this time, maybe 30 minutes But I hope you kept your little scrap of sandpaper because you are gonna reuse it.. Yes all dull and worn out. Do the lick and promise thing again
OOOPS!!!! I forgot, you should rinse the windex out of the paint brush with warm water Yeh, water!
Dry it as much as possible (I spin it between the palms of my hands) and then poor some denatured alcohol into it (Not over the can) spin dry again and just because I'm annal I give it a second alcohol washing.
Since` you've worked so hard you can wait an hour to really let it dry and then give it it's final coat..
once you've seen the final coat decide just how perfect you want it to be.. If you'd like that flawless deep rich look sand everything with finer and finer grits. (that's an art in itself, not hard but care must be used and if you want I'll gladly share the details
You start with 400 grit and wind up with 4000 grit , then polish it and if you really want people to oooh and awww! you'll finish it off with french polish techniques.
I've got a life so I won't go to that step unless it's for something really special..
OK health warning..
Don't drink denatured alcohol..
If you want to drink alcohol buy regular alcohol (But you'll pay liquor tax on it) when they mix the 2% stuff used to denature it, you save the tax.
98% of denatured alcohol is the stuff you drink in a beer or wine so it's pretty benign stuff.
Shellac you already eat every time you take a pill. That's what the drug companies coat pills with only they use straight alcohol to mix it rather than denatured so shellac is safe as houses.. If the kids chew on it so what, the alcohol will have evaporated so don't worry, be happy!
I was just in town, and looked for some shellac and shellac thinner and such. We must be culturely deprived up here. I could find jugs of "white shellac" no shellac sealer, and methyl-hydrate for thinner. Denatured alchol questions bring the drawn eyebrow look, and shellac flakes are an unknown. Do I lose?I too try not to hate finishing, but have diffuculty maintaining a sense of humor, and doing a good job, everything starts so well, and ends so poorly.
PTU
There is no shellac thinner. it's alcohol.. denatured is alcohol that you don't pay a liquor tax on, otherwise kids would drink it.
Where did you look for shellac? Home depot, Lowes. any decent hardware store, most paint stores all sell Zinzzers.. But if you want to do the work sure you can buy flakes, mix with alcohol and have your own.. but it's an extra step that I found doesn't get me anything..
When you mix your own, please make it massively more watery than you think it should be.. shellac dries too fast to carefully paint on so you've got to flood it on. watery helps keep it from forming the drips we all associate with runs..
Please please trust me that you don't want to carefully paint shellac on, just flood it on as fast as you can. A nice thin watery coating.. The grin starts in 15 minutes..
Thanks for the reply. We have a Home Hardware, and a local yard here. Neither know about denatured alchol, and methyl hydrate is labled as shellac thinner. I can buy "white shellac, or yellow shellac" in one liter jugs. I can buy flakes from Lee Valley, but I'm stumped on the alchol. I could use gin, but that is pretty expensive.
ptu, I believe methyl hydrate is methyl alcohol. see, http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/ME/methyl_hydrate.html. That will work, but not quite as well as ethyl alcohol. Denatured (ethyl) alcohol is denatured by the addition of small amounts of methyl alcohol or other "poisons" making it unsuitable for drinking, hence no tax. Your hardware store should be able to order denatured alcohol for you. Rich
Edited 1/7/2007 11:34 am ET by Rich14
Instead of methyl hydrate, which is straight wood alcohol, and as Rich says isn't very pleasant for use as a shellac thinner, you want methylated spirits which, in Canadian, is the name for denatured alcohol (ie. ethanol denatured by methylating it by adding the methanol) I can't imagine that methyl hydrate is widely stocked and the much safer methylated spirits is not.
You can get a shellac solvent from Lee Valley to dissolve the flakes. (They only sell it in Canada) It is a mix of ethanol and isopropyl alcohol which means it will evaporate slightly slower than pure ethanol. Its probably pretty similar to Behkol sold in the US as a shellac solvent.
Steve and Rich, thanks again for the reply. I can buy drums of methyl hydrate, its used as gas line antifreeze, I have yet to see methelyated spirits, but it does sound Canadian. I can get isopropyl alchol at the drug store. I'll see if I can order meth spirits from the hardware store, if not, Lee Valley had yet to faill me.
Pete
The isopropyl alcohol from the drug store almost certainly has too much water content to be used as a shellac thinner. Are there paint stores instead of hardware stores?
We don't have specific stores, small town and all that. I can get Zinnerers shellac. 3#cut, that should work. Methyl hydrate references to methyl alcohol. I'm going to try that, I'll let you know how it works.
Thanks for the reference, I'll bet it is close enough. I have found another place that says methyl hydrate is shellac thinner. I'm going to try it. It is redily available here at a reasonable price. LV wants 11 bucks a liter for their thinner
ptu,
OK I see the issue.. Yes you want white shellac. (unless you like a warmer slightly darker look which you then could use yellow shellac. No mythal hydrate isn't what is used.. denatured alcohol has 2% of something in it to make it undrinkable.. it's 98% alcohol.
You could check with a local hospital and find out where they buy their alcohol. (alcohol is used to wipe areas prior to giving a shot, used for cleaning and cooling of overheated patients etc.) The trouble is that's labratory grade. The expensive stuff.. industrial grade is just fine. Industrail grade is slightly less pure but just fine for your purposes..
Read the back of the can on that shellac, it should list the cut.. something like 3# cut (3#'s of flakes to a gallon of alcohol) is common. You want to reduce it to a 1# cut (1# of flakes to a gallon of alcohol)..
Frenchy, TFTA, I'll look for denatured or what ever we call it in Canada. It must be available some where.
Frenchy, I've just read your essay on shellac a second time, and I'm tempted to give it a try. I also like the smell of quizzes made with blue ditto in high school, so I'll bet that I'll enjoy the smells of shellac too.Where should I use it? What kinds of pieces?Rp
Riverprof.
I can tell that you are dubious so start small, Do you have a living room with a bare hardwood floor?
Get a big mop and a gallon of shellac and three gallons of alcohol and mix them up.. If you start at noon you will be ready for company for dinner.. Unless you want to get high from alcohol fumes you might open a few windows. or wear a mask..
You will find that shellac is one of the hardest finishes there is. I have a 150 pound Newfoundland/ St. Bernard mix (that's a kinda small bear) who absolutely refuses to trim his nails.. when he runs and jumps on the floor I did with shellac you'd expect him to leave scratches..he doesn't..
Now if he did leave scratches I'd be forced to train him to wipe them up. I'm not sure exactly How to train him to open a can of denatured alcohol and pour some on a rag, but I'm sure in a moment or two of rubbing the scratch would be gone..
If you had a lot of fun shellacing the floor and want to strip it in say 70 or 80 years you take that same can of denatured alcohol and get the rag really wet and just wipe off all the shellac.. Bare wood!
If you only want to strip say half of the shellac, don't worry when you put fresh stuff on it still melts together and you won't be able to tell where you did it 80 years ago..
As for Oder,
Shellac has a sweet smell and alcohol smells like well,.... alcohol..
You could if you wish start a bit smaller..
I filed away for future trial your recipe for shellacking. I hope it is as good as your sense of humor!Cadiddlehopper
In addition to the way shellac looks, I love the way it feels. Frenchy, I was a little suprised to see that you clean the brush. I've been taught to let it harden (even between jobs) and just re-dissolve it in some alcohol before use.
quickstep,
I'm anal.. I hate having stuff dirty and I just feel that a uncleaned brush is dirty.. Yeh I know I could save myself some time effort and Windex but hey! If I didn't do wierd stuff I'd be normal and who wants that?
(shut up! wife and daughters) <G>
Hey frenchy,
The T on your keyboard must be a lot closer than the P is on mine! Not to worry, I'm just an old farp from northern New Hampshire.
Do it this way and you will get a great big old ship eatin' grin across your face that your wife will suspect you for..
By the way, I've become a convert to shellac also. Steve Schoerne (spell) got me geared into it. Great post by you!
An Allman Brothers fan as well,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"An Allman Brothers fan as well,"Bob, I never get excited about coming across another Allman Brothers fan until I get an answer to the question: "Ramblin' Man" or "In Memory of Elizabeth Read"?Rp
Bob Seger's Ramblin Man, PURE! In Memory of Elizabeth Reed, oh my goodness, what memories. I have all the Bros. albums as well as Mr. Seger's. Wish I could get out the vinyl to have another listen, as the memory is the first to go, :) :).
The only problem is that my B&O 4000, the one with the tangential tonearm doesn't have a proper cartridge and I can't find one, so I'm relegated to listening to the digital remakes. It's just not the same. But, I do have the old Sony reel to reel hooked up to the A/V (my Yamaha CR-610 crapped out) and that sounds great!
I religiously maintained them with D-4 disc cleaning liquid, stored them under Funk & Wagnells porch in sealed containers, but the inevitable scratches.... The scratches are a nice touch though, kinda brings you back.
I hear Ya.
Best Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Ramblin' Man has my vote
Great advice. I tried it on a couple of projects and can say this totally eliminates the part i hate most about finishing, WAITING. After trying this and seeing how quick it was I started to feel guilty about not finishing a small shop project and took the minutes to do so. How did you come about this process? By accident or ??? I suppose I would need to stain first if i want a darker finish or can you offer any advice to color the shellac? If you have already answered this, could you save me some search time.
Thanks.
brad805,
It's a bit of transferance. When I first learned to paint classic cars I was shown that you over thin the lacquer finish and spray on many thin coats sanding between. The real pros save the cost of lacquer thinner and cut per directions but if you are a novice painter using less than the best equipment you adapt..
When I tried polurethanes etc. I hated their plastic look and satin finish just seemed dusty to me not like there was any real depth. I was messing with shellac in an attempt to use less polyurethane on the end grain and just naturally over thinned it. Well, the results speak fr themselves..
Others get darker colors by using shellac flakes of darker colors. but that process involves too much hassle for me.. If I wanted to darken up wood I'd be tempted to put a wash coat of shellac on so the stain is absorbed equally and then stain and let dry followed by the normal three coat shellac finish..
You don't really say what it is about finishing that you hate. Obviously, you don't like mineral spirits, etc. Is it the smell? Or the added complexity? In general, is it the uncertainty that comes with finishing and the consequences of screwing it up?
Finishing scares the crap out of me, having had 3 projects that were disasters. But having learned from those experiences, I now test a finish first on goodly sized pieces of scrap. And pick the easiest finish that looks good. Padding on shellac is my favorite, but not appropriate for all pieces since it's not terribly durable. Wetsanding with Watco works great on red oak and probably other woods as well, and is incredibly easy. Letting it cure for a few days, and finishing off with Poly, gorgeous. Lots of oil/varnish approaches that are easy.
Seems to me there are several options that fall short of the really complicated and/or expensive (HVLP) processes. You just need to find them and practice a few times. And stay away from building pianos or large dining tables that need that mirror-finish. <grin>
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Great essay on shellac, Frenchy.Forestgirl, you've asked the right question. I'm not sure if I know what the answer is. But I can get at it with a metaphor. Suppose that finishing were canoeing. I always feel, when doing it, like I've got my life vest on, and a good lunch packed, and the right paddles, and I'm out in the middle of a swift moving stream and -- oh! -- I forgot the canoe.It's like that.Now, to be sure, there isn't anything that I DO like about finishing. And it goes without saying that I've never done so nice a job of it that I've been tempted to repeat the process.I especially don't like the fact that, for simple pieces, it takes five times as many calendar days to finish the piece as it took to make it in the first place.
I hated finishing so much that i started using paste wax on every thing. I still use it on most of my pieces. I prefer to use briwax because if its good enough for the queen its good enough for me. Sometimes clients prefer a more durable finish, thats when freak out time came. That is untill I tried wet sanding , starting with 400 wetor dry and going up in grit to 1000. You don't have to wait as long for curing, you don't have to worry about heat caused by friction because you can add a couple of drops of liquid detergent in the water. You could get to mirror finish qualiy with rubbing and polishing compounds. Then use a wax if you like for sacrifice purposes. I also use water to wet the entire piece before I start the finishing process. It will swell the grain back to its natural shape eliminating minor dings and copressions and also neutralising some of the natural acids in the wood which can interfere with the finishing process. Just sand with 220 dry to get the raised grain back to normal. ITs a good time to try chemical patinaing if you don't like stains.They give more natural results.
Omah,
Your process is a little hard to follow. What finish are you wet sanding?
Rich
Rich, I don't think Omah is wet sanding finish. He damps unfinished wood to raise the grain during the final sanding.
That's what was confusing. He says he dry sands at 220 to take down raised grain from the water. Then he wet sands raw wood again at higher grit?
Omah?
Rich
Edited 1/6/2007 1:52 pm ET by Rich14
I as yet haven't tried to wet sand bare wood because it would seem to me that you would be raiseing the grain while your are removing it at the same time . Kind of counterproductive. I should have proof read my post before sending it. my appologies.
Sorry for the confusion, I skipped over the part where I applied several coats of either poly [oil base] or water base urethane or laquer. After the piece has bone dried after the damp rinse and before the 220 dry sand. The original freak outs occured initially after I would apply these coats. and some dust nibs or minor imperfections would come up leaving a less than perfect finish. I had more unpleasantnesses when I would try to sand them out creating heat which would soften the poly. It was my learning experiance to use wet or dry at much higher grits with water as a lubricant, with more than satisfactoy results. Knowing that I can correct a less than perfect application of a varish has given me more confidence in my finishes. As for shellac it has its own mystique that im still trying to master, Thanks to all the help and advise I've gotten on this forum.
Omah, "Knowing that I can correct a less than perfect application of a varish has given me more confidence in my finishes." That IS the secret of finishing, Omah. That is all that stands between fear of finishing and glorious finishing. Completely forget about a flawless finish as the result of brushing or padding or spraying a finish on a surface and expecting it to be free of nibs, ridges, etc. The finish must be "finished" as you go. Learning how to level (sand) each stage of the finishing process absolutely relieves you of the anxiety of the "problems" of finishing. And that applies to ANY finish. Level sanding is the easiest thing in the world to do. Rubbing out is harder but no more "difficult." Rich
Edited 1/6/2007 4:36 pm ET by Rich14
Rich14 has hit on a key.The biggest mistakes that I see are:
* not sanding between coats (when needed, not all finishes need this)
* applying too much all at once. This isn't one-coat coverage paint.
* improper techniques such as over- or under-brushing
* using the same finish for all projects regardless of intended use
Edited 1/6/2007 5:40 pm ET by byhammerandhand
"Wood finishing is, after all, a very simple craft. It involves little more than transferring a liquid from a container to the wood using a a rag, brush, or spray gun. Each of these tools is easy to master. (By way of comparison, think of all the tools you have to master to be good at woodworking.)"
Bob Flexner, introduction to Understanding Wood Finishing, 2d ed.
There are just a couple of things in the way of understanding:
1) Finishing involves chemistry; woodworking involves physics and geometry that you can see.
2) Most finish manufacturers conceal or intentionally mislabel products so that you may have a hard time understanding why a finish is acting the way it does, because it may not exactly imply what is in the can. For example, Tung Oil Finishes, Water-based lacquers, and Danish Oil don't really truly indicate what's in the can.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/finish2.html
Finishing is a different skill than woodworking and you need to do some education and practice with it, just like woodworking, to get it right. And it's different than painting. Fear is often fear of the unknown. There are lots of good suggestions above (maybe half of them :-) for basic finish processes. Try a couple to see how they work, at make at least one of them not polyurethane.
Edited 1/6/2007 3:57 pm ET by byhammerandhand
Yes, BHAH, that's a good summation.The first thing I need to do, I think, is to see some finely finished pieces, in a setting where the finishes are identified. And that's something that I cannot see by looking at books and magazines.Rp
Check into a local woodworking club or store and look at what people have done and ask questions. Most woodworkers I know are more than happy to share anything they know.
If you are truly going to pursue getting someone else to do your finishing then you need to talk to them thoroughly about what results you want as there are some things you may need to do during construction that will help facilitate the process for the finisher. Some surfaces are only accessable for proper smoothing whether it be by scraping,planing or sanding prior to assembly. If this is not done it makes the work harder for the finisher and could affect the results.
The biggest problem I see with woodworkers who do not like the finishing process is that they can't seem to accept the idea that the finishing process will probably take nearly as long as the contruction of the piece. Most seem to think that if they spend 2 weeks building a piece then they should be able to finish it in 2 days. That is just not the way it is.
If you want to build and finish fine works in wood then you will need to spend just as much time learning to finish as you did learning the techniques for building the piece. Most woodworkers spend countless hours in the shop refining their woodworking techniques, why should finishing require any less commitment?
When aspiring woodworkers ask me about what one needs to know in order to create nice pieces I tell them this "one needs to be a designer, an excellent joiner, and a bit of an alchemist in order to achieve reliably excellent results."
Ron
I used to hate finishing too, then some years ago, my wife and I saw a sleigh bed we just loved that was a kit. My ego hated the idea of building a kit, but the components were high quality and the price was right. Because I didn't have to expend a lot of energy on building the bed, I put all of my focus into the finish. Since then, I've grown to like finishing more.
I also like a thin finish. There are two products I've found that let me control the thickness; shellac and Waterlox original.
Let's see if I've got this right: everything about making a shellac finish into a fine finish is done after the shellac is dry. There's nothing that I can do with the shellac while it's wet to improve the finish, so I shouldn't even try. Is that about it?Can you name some shop projects that I should put it on? Some that I should not?Rp, skeptical but taking it in
Edited 1/7/2007 12:53 pm ET by Riverprof
Mostly that is correct. It doesn't hurt to apply the shellac evenly--but it can't be worked. While wet, messing with the shellac can lead to disaster such as "rumpled" finishes and the like.
But, there is no finish that can't be improved by "finishing the finish" after it has cured, so shellac is hardly unique in that.
The only finishing technique I know that wouldn't benefit from rubbing out, largely because the entire process is one of rubbing out, is French polishing.
Rp,
I'll second what Steve said that the best answer to your question, "everything about making a shellac finish into a fine finish is done after the shellac is dry?" is yes.
( . . . more about that below . . .)
And that is the beauty of the process. Let the finish dry. And sand it. Any body can sand. That's what we do to wood. There is absolutely no anxiety about sanding. We have absolute control over the process. The anxiety about finishing is that it seems that we really don't have good control of the process. Whether it's laying down an even application with the brush, runs, drips, lap marks, if spraying - uneven spraying, etc., etc.
Then there is all the dust and other cr*p that shows up on the surface of the finish now matter how dust-free we get our "finishing room."
So forget all that. Let the first application dry (any finish). Lightly scuff sand with 320 on a felt or rubber sanding block. You will take down the highest "mountains" and leave the low, shiny valleys. Don't try to get a completely even look. You cant.
Then apply the next application (several light coats of shellac). Scuff sand again. This time, the surface appears more uniform, ground-glass-like. The shiny valleys are smaller. And shellac is so easy to sand. It becomes a fine, dry powder that is a joy to work.
Another application of finish (again, with shellac, several light coats). Scuff sand.
With each go-round the scuff sanding, lightly, gently, gets more and more of the surface. Eventually you reach a point (3-4 applications, maybe more) where it's easy to make the whole surface a uniform ground-glass-like at 320 grit. You can stop. You're done! Unless you want to continue to build the thickness of the finish. Additional applications will level out just like this one. From this point, all that need be done is to carefully go up through abrasive grits - 400 wet-or-dry, 600 wet-or-dry with lubricant (mineral spirits or a quart of water with a drop of dishwashing detergent), 4-0 steel wool, 800, 1000, automotive rubbing compound (red), automotive polishing compound (white), swirl remover.
You stop at whatever grit level gives you the look you want from soft matte up through crystal clear.
But wait, there's more! Shellac can be worked "wet." Google french polishing. (a very laborious padding method using pumice in the early stages) Even better is "false" french polish, or applying shellac by "padding" it.
It's done with a pad barely damp with a dilute shellac solution, and a drop of linseed oil or mineral oil as a lubricant. there's a Zen about it. It can be applied to bare wood or to wood that has been preapred as above with shellac, well leveled and dry.
(There's a commercial product that is mostly lacquer that uses the same technique - Qualasole.)
With french polish techniques or the simpler false padding, one can apply the finest finish known to grace wood.
Rich
Edited 1/7/2007 2:03 pm ET by Rich14
Riverprof,
Well you might slightly in a tiny way reduce the polishing effort if you can paint extremely quickly and flawlessly, but I can't so I have fun and just let'er fly..The end results are the same, polishing work may be reduced by a minute or two..the end results are the same..
Depending on your standards, the last coat may be just fine.. or you can choose to go for that fabulous depth that only shellac is capable of.. Ask for sanding details if you want..
Your call.
Let me tell you though do not put more than three coats on! Thicker isn't better!
Three Thin 1# cut coats is what you are trying for.. You make a mistake and sand thru it's no big deal, you drag the brick, mop, broom, or brush out and slop some more back on.. (whatever you applied it with in the first place).. repair disappears!
A few minor points, I buy these boxes of cheap disposable gloves. if you have them rubber ones melt in alcohol use the vynial ones.. If I'm in rush I don't worry about gloves, Shellac scrubs off easily when dry.
Clothes too won't be ruined by shellac.. a few washings and it's gone..
I was tempted to shellac my Black walnut floor with my stocking feet, just to say I did it, In the end I figured what the heck use the pad I bought for that purpose and then apply it in my stocking feet rather than step in a can of shellac. The stockings were really stiff when tossed in the wash but now I can't tell which pair I used..
I'd really recommend that you shellac wood, I don't have any experiance with plastics or metal.. As to size of the project do whatever you have.. Worst possible case you wipe it all off and are back to square one..
But you won't.. that smile you get on your face after the first coat will have you just as addicted as I am..
I love not being able to make a mistake than't be fixed!
Frenchy-- OK, you've got me going on another one of your ideas--last one with the wite oak was a winner. Keep in mind I'm a total novice.....may experiment with the shellac on some scrap first. But......if I like a non-gloss finish on my floors......what they call a "satin" finish....can I get this with shellac? Or is the final product going to be a glossy gym floor? And would a thinner coating still give protection against those claws? How does it stack up against poly...in appearance, ease of app, longevity, and repair?
Many thanks.
Marc5
Shellac doesn't have that plastic look that we associate with most poly's etc.. It has a depth and richness that is inspiring. I Suspect that you'll like the look as you finish your third coat, however if you seek depth you start sanding with finer and finer grades of sand paper. 220, then 400 etc.. stop when you get to 4000
A couple of points, don't use it straight from the can! Mix the can with three gallons of denatured alcohol.. It makes a thin watery finish which is a very good thing indeed! ..... and you need to sand with 220 between each coat..
Threecoat max, three coat minimum.. Do it my way or I'll flick a booger on your windshield!
I generally start with a 3M sand sponge. because it makes it easy to get edges without sanding thru. When the whole surface is satin I cover the sponge with 400 and now I really sand lightly.. all you are doing is eliminating the scratches of the 220, then 400 and then 600, well you get my point.
Now you get to polish and because I'm lazy I use a polishing pad on a DA. each step makes the scratches finer and finer untill they shine.If you have a limitless amount of ambition you can use the french polish technique.. (once was enough for me, beautiful but an insane amount of work)
Wax when finished if you want to.. It helps protect the shellac..
Now shellac is wonderfull but it has it's limits.. It's strickly inside stuff! Outside you are back to poly's or varnishes..
Edited 1/7/2007 3:54 pm ET by frenchy
Frenchy, you are so convincing! I'm a little afraid to try shellac now, because I'm worried that I'm going to fall to the ground, writhe in convulsions, and start talking in tongues when I finally see what I've been missing all these years.
Riverprof,
You have seen the light my son,, go and fear not..
PS do it my way or I'll flick a booger on your windshield. <G>
I hate sanding, but I love finishing. Many many woodworkers and cabinet makers produce beautiful items and then do a so-so job in the finishing. The finish is what protects your fine work from the elements and enhances the natural beauty of the wood. A good finish is sensual. It invites you to touch it and examine it up close and personal. A good finishing job turns a great woodworking project into an item of art to be appreciated for generations.
Take the time to learn and then experiment to bring out the individual characteristics of the wood. There are many good books to use as a starting point to get you headed in the right direction. Practice on some scrap. Make a step board that shows a progression of each step you used to achieve the final product. When you get the look you desire, follow the same steps on your project.
If it does not turn out just right you can always strip it and start over.
If all else fails call you can ship it to me for finishing. :-) We do a lot of custom finishing for several local cabinet shops.
Steve Nearman
Fredericksburg, VA
The Master's Touch
Furniture Restoration Service
Quality restorations and repairs for over 35
years!
(540) 371-5566
http://FurnitureRepair.net/
Edited 1/12/2007 3:57 pm ET by uncleSteve
Well, this thread is on the main page now, titled "Pain-free Finishing." Had to laugh, as the picture shows a finished board and a brush. IMHO, anything using a brush is not pain free. ROFL!!!!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Do you mean that I should throw away all those lovely brushes I just bought???
Ha, ha, ha. Nah.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forestgirl, have you had much experince with laquer? I just bought some, but don't know any thing about it. It sounds like it applies like shellac. How do you generaly apply a finish?
I'm the wrong one to ask about lacquer! Only time I've used it was for a couple of very small projects where I could use a spray can, LOL. I use shellac on shadow-box type displays and other items that don't get much abuse. Wipe-on poly over Watco (wetsanding or not, depending on the wood), and a few attempts with brushing poly. I have to keep it simple, or I get so intimidated I just fold on the whole project. Maybe 2007 will bring some new finishing adventures, we'll see.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
ptu, The only way to understand spraying is to do it. Read all you can, then just do it. Most lacquers are ready to spray out of the can. Multiple THIN coats. Completely wetting the surface, but THIN. Good lighting is a must. You MUST keep the reflection of your lights in the wet finish as you move along, so you can see exactly where you've sprayed. ALWAYS keep the gun moving as you're spraying. Move the gun parallel to the surface you're spraying, not in a arc relative to the surface. Three thin coats of lacquer a day. Scuff sand the next morning and 3 more. Most jobs need 3 such scheduled days. Some 1 or 2 more. Always finish the finish by leveling the final coat and rubbing out after letting the lacquer harden for at least 48 hours. I give mine a week to harden.. Rich
Thanks for the reply. I have been sticking to urathane as it seems to be what everyone here uses, but it seems so haphazard. Everytime that I use it, it comes out different. I bought some lacqure so I'll try rhat, and if I can figure out were to get alcohol, I'm going to try shellac. Every finish is an adventure!
ptu,
I used to use a lot of lacquer, It's my second favorite finish..
Yes thin it out and spray it on, you can apply it with any method if you'd like, just that lacquer is more finish sensitive than shellac.. You'll need to work harder to sand it.. Lacquer doesn't flow out as well as shellac does when thinned..
IN addition it takes much longer to dry before sanding and before using..
Be carefull you should have a good respirator for the older Lacquers and a suit and fresh air supply (seperate air hose taking outside fresh clean air in and inducing it to the face mask), with the new catalized finishes..
I can no longer spray catalizd lacquer, I'm ultra sensitive to it.. a little on my skin and I get terrible flu like symptoms.. (or if I breath some I tend to faint).
The old nitrocelluliose lacquer is much more forgiving and gentle.
Oh, yeah. I forgot to mention. When spraying lacquer, breathe deeply. After just a few minutes you can get some wonderful hallucinations!
Rich
Rich and Frenchy, thanks for the response, I don't have the wherewithall to spray, mainly lacking power to run a compressor, and then a clean spot, and it goes on, so I will pretty well stick to brushes or wipes. Sounds like lacquer is a more big time than I am used to, but I will give it a try.
All this talk has me sold on shellac. I went to Home Depot and they didn't have any. But I do have some questions. I mostly make craftsman style furniture, white oak stained dark and am currently using two coats of Danish oil then wax. How does shellac compare to oil for ease of use and durability? Does shellac yellow or otherwise change with time? Is it available in clear variety? When you sand between coats what grit of sandpaper do you use? What grit do you start with for final sanding?
jeremy
Here is a good primer on shellac: http://www.johnjacobmickley.com/Shop%20Pages/Finishing%20Frame.htm
jeremy. Shellac, obviously is more work to apply than danish oil finish, which is actually an oil/varnish preparation. But once, completed, shellac offers far, far more protection to the surface. Shellac is a very hard finish. It is not waterproof, but it takes prolonged exposure to water to cause damage. Of course, it can be harmed by any alcoholic liquid as alcohol is its solvent. But the danger to alcohol is usually greatly overstated and a shellac finish is very easy to repair. All shellacs other than blonde/ultra blonde color the wood various shades from light amber to deep garnet, depending on the grade of shellac. But shellac does not yellow, so no futher color change happens after the finishing is done and the ultra blonde varieties are clear. Zinser's off-the-shelf product, "Seal Coat" is a clear, dewaxed shellac. I scuff sand between coats with 320 grit. I know I'm ready for final rubbing out when the scuff sanding easily leaves a perfectly uniform surface, rather than sanded "hills" and shiny valleys (indicating another coat is needed and further scuff sanding). The final coat is leveled with 320, then various grits of wet-or-dry with a lubricant (mineral spirits or a drop of dishwasing detergent in a quart of water) starting at 400, 600, 4-0 steel wool, 800, etc, automotive rubbing compound (red), automotive polishing compound (white), swirl remover. You stop at the look you want from soft matte up through crystal clear high gloss. Rich
jeremyilllingworth,
Are you kidding?
It's in the paint deptartment, over by the MInwax products. Standard plan they carry both zinzzers quarts and gallons..
jeremyillingworth,
Danish oil, (any wiping oil) doesn't have the durability or protection a shellac or lacquer does..
MY Grandfather clock had three carefully rubbed coats on it and while it looked good for a few years over time it's finish has dulled. I wiped on some overly thinned shellac and the depth, color and shine was back. To get full depth I'll put the other two coats on someday..
Tried shellac coat the way you guys been talking about now I'm hooked.Can't thank you enough Its what i've been searching for. Mainly the cure time on poly coats really sucks, that does not seem to be the problem with shellac. And a little sacrifice wax just gives it a nice old world quality, so easy and cheap low tech. thanks again you guys are the best.
ptu,
you can brush or wipe laquer on, (I joke it can be applied with a brick in a sand storm) however the resulting sanding will be harder and take more time.. the further you get from a smooth finish..
That's the trick to any decent finish, the degree which you use care when sanding out..
Overly thinned shellac on the other hand tends to go on well and reasonably smooth, which reduces your sanding efforts.. I use a brush simply because I can flod more shellac on with a brush than a pad.
Most people who pad do so because of poor experiance with brushing finishes on.. they've had streaks and runs and brush marks that disappoint them.. Overly thinned shellac suffers from no such problems..
Normal runs simply melt away with overly thinned shellac . leaving no sign they occured, brush marks melt. and holidays (skipped areas) can be covered without showing with the next coat..
Forget your experiance with paint and polyurethanes, Shellac is a whole new fun ball game!
With the right wood if you are willing to put up with the added hassles of lacquer you might be better off with lacquer. Hard maple for example.. If you are lucky enough to get all heart wood with no streaks from broken branches a lacquer will finish clearer than shellac will. Even the "clear" shellac has a bit of yellow to it.. I claim that yellow induces a warmth to maple that keeps it from looking cold but your opinion may differ.. I'm in an extremely tolerant mood and won't even flick a booger on your screen if you dare to hold a differing opinion <G>
Edited 1/13/2007 3:06 pm ET by frenchy
>>With the right wood if you are willing to put up with the added hassles of lacquer you might be better off with lacquer. Hard maple for example.. If you are lucky enough to get all heart wood with no streaks from broken branches a lacquer will finish clearer than shellac will. Even the "clear" shellac has a bit of yellow to it.. I claim that yellow induces a warmth to maple that keeps it from looking cold but your opinion may differ.. I'm in an extremely tolerant mood and won't even flick a booger on your screen if you dare to hold a differing opinion
----
Shellac is the finish with added hassle, not lacquer. The grinding, mixing, waiting and filtering of shellac takes TIME, that's a hassle in my book. Other than the "water white" lacquers they all have an amber tone or tint. That is what gives a lacquered finishes such a warm look.Let the booger fly <!---->
Steve Nearman
Fredericksburg, VA
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The Master's Touch
Furniture Restoration Service
Quality restorations and repairs for over 35
years!
(540) 371-5566
http://FurnitureRepair.net/
<!---->
All
I just came out of my "booth", I am working on a painted mdf project, if you want to learn how to lacquer try this.
I have read most of this and someone pointed out that the finish depends on the project, good point, also keep in mind how big is the project, how much protection does it need, the sheen, fire hazzard, health issues, the enviorment and the price.
I use catylized lacquer and the same for primer and paint. the medium is denatured alcohol and the catylist is an acid that will eat the skin off your hands. My supplier is Becker Acroma.
I wouldn't consider using linseed oil or shelllac, they are too soft and are prone to stain even from a water ring let alone alcohol. Poly is strong but dries slow, this is important on many levels, you need dust free space and time and thicker and slower means drips and lets face it alot of my projects are ten sheets or more I don't have time to brush on the product, but lets face it, works well on refinishing a floor, but it is not good enough for furniture. What is tung oil anyway smells like linseed to me.
We are down to some form of nitrocelious ( sp) lacquer. Post cat or pre cat. Post cat is harderand dries faster. I remember a time one needed a sanding sealer but the industry went to a one hardness fits all for their clears probably comprimising hardness in the process.
Somebody pointed out the suppliers omited information. Probably not on purpose, pick thier brains, the young fella you were talking to just didn't know. It took me a year to figure out I was using the wrong thinner, this is science and it requires alot of R AND D.
Thats all for now, GL
Grey glove,
I've used both lacquer and shellac.. My floor right now is shellac. and my 150 pound newfoundland/st.Bernard mix who runs across it and refuses to clip his toenails hassn't scratched it so far..
I would never dare to try that with Lacquer would you?
If I spill a beer on it and bend over and wipe it up nothing happens.. However if I spill some single malt scotch and walk downstairs pick up a rag and walk up again, there will be a mark left.
To fix all I need to do is have some denatured alcohol on that rag and rub it briskly across the floor for a few moments and the mark will be gone..
Same with water..
a small spill quickly wiped up will not white out,, a fair amount of water left for a while will leave a white mark but a brisk rub with a cloth soaked in denatured alcohol makes the white disappear..
uncleSteve,
Clearly you are a newbie here, because If you'd read any of my posts you'd see that I think it's foolish indeed not to take off the shelf shellac, Zinzzlers to be exact. $22.00 a gallon for 3# cut premixed at Home Depot.
I spend maybe 30 seconds stiring up shellac and wind up with some flawless finishes that need little in the way of final sanding..
The hassles I refer to are the need to suit up to spray lacquer and if using catalized lacquer the need for a fresh air supply.. That plus the slower dry time of lacquer and the longer amount of time needed to sand out lacquer makes the use of lacquer a second choice.
Frenchy,
I may be new to this forum but not to finishing. Next June it will be 40 years that I have been finishing professionally. Altho the first 5 may not count as professional ;-). That being said, I'm not knocking shellac. I use quite a bit of it, both mixing my own and off the shelf. The stuff has great properties and longevity in the right environment. I have worked on 300 year old antiques where the original shellac finish is in good shape for the most part. NC lacquer has only been around for about 60 years and from what I have seen, its doubtful if it will last that long. The newer cat lacquers have some application problems but offer superior ware resistance. Longevity is still to be determined. Shellac is also great for popping out the grain, sealing problem woods, eliminating fish eye problems and more.
Off the shelf, SealCoat, and other Zinzzlers products are OK, but you can achieve a much better finish by mixing your own and it is necessary when matching the old stuff on antiques. It takes a lot more time than popping open a can. And then there is the shelf life problem. If you mix to much and don't finish often (long time between projects) it goes to waste. Don't mix enough and the whole mixing procedure is done twice.
Properly mixed lacquer is much faster drying to a full cure than shellac. As for set up time, its a one time thing. I can spray shellac or lacquer ten times faster then you can brush it on or french polish with a rubber. The quality of appearance from an off the gun finish in lacquer, in my opinion, is better than anything achieved with a brush and a lot easier too. If you want to go all the way and hand rub the lacquer there is not much difference in the time it takes one takes to french polish. As far as fumes, denatured alcohol is definitely not something you should be breathing. Good ventilation and protection is a must when applying ANY type of finish.
In the long run, I still say shellac is a bigger hassle then lacquer. I have done a lot of both.
Every finish has its pluses and minuses. For a comparison go to:
http://FurnitureRepair.net/finishFAQ.htm
Every one has a pet finish of choice. If it works for you and you are happy with the results, don't change. If your approach is what's best for this item in the way it will be used, in the environment it will be in, then you will look at a all the options and the characteristics of the many different finishes available today and pick what is appropriate. The biggest change in the last 20 years; There is a lot to choose from!
Steve Nearman
Fredericksburg, VA
View Image
The Master's Touch
Furniture Restoration Service
Quality restorations and repairs for over 35
years!
(540) 371-5566
http://FurnitureRepair.net/
uncle Steve,
please don't think that I was saying you are a newbie to finishing, simply a newbie to this post..
I've been a strong advocate of shellac for a while now and have posted ways to apply it without the fear some have..
As I said I sprayed my first nitrocellulose lacquer back in the early 70' s I loved that finish compared to others such as varnish etc.. However in the 80's I sprayed some of the early catalyzed Lacquers. Nobody explained the need for fresh air and I had a nasty reaction to it.. as a result I'm hypersensitive to it so I need to suit up and get fresh air pumped in. Which is what should be done whenever it's sprayed by anyone..
If you aren't doing that you will pay the price and Let me state that you can't live without your liver!
Now shellac hasn't ever produced that result with me.. I vent the fumes but take no other special precautions, when I brush as I'm inclined to do, a simple mask and away I go! Spraying entails sealing off the area to be sprayed, and use of an approved respirator. While Brushing means picking up a brush and going at it!
From a health stand point you can't eat lacquer, but every pill you take has a coating of shellac on it.. so in effect you do eat shellac..
From a cost stand point there simply is no comparison.. at $22.00 a gallon for three pound cut (which in effect becomes a one pound cut with the way I advocate thinning it) I can't buy a gallon of Lacquer (which becomes two gallons when properly mixed) for anywhere near that price especially the catalyzed stuff..That's a big major deal to me!
I have over 50,000 bd ft. of hardwood that needs finishing. I can cover 400 bd.ft. with a gallon of shellac, significantly less with lacquer. I'll need about $3000 worth of shellac and denatured alcohol compared to around $15,000 worth of lacquer, etc. ..
I will defy you to spray as fast as I can brush!
I have a pressure pot and HVLP gun, heck I've got nearly a dozen spray guns, each with a special purpose. some are extremely expensive ones while some are those cheapy imports..
Considering everything I can brush several times faster that you can spray.. Oh you may actually cover little more wood than I do but that's far from the total time invested in painting.. When You spray there are suits to don and masks plus sealing off the area for over spray, getting the guns out and cleaning them when finished, dragging air hoses to the site, coiling them up when finished, mixing, filtering, pouring, set the guns for desired spray pattern.
Frankly I had never considered anything but clear shellac, I never want to hide grain only bring it out, darker finishes would hide more than they bring out the finish, now in some circumstances that may be a good thing, especially matching antique finishes..
I found that if you over thin shellac you can actually flood it on without a problem, no careful brushing, just a big 'ol house painters brush filled with shellac and slop away! No runs, no brush marks, no problems!
Sand between coats lightly and slop the next coat on , three overly thinned coats and an impressive finish which if you want to do the work can be improved with the sanding care you'd give lacquer.
Denatured alcohol is 98% the same stuff you drink afterwards, with 2% poison. (that's the problem). so I ventilate.. denatured alcohol evaporates so quickly that I can't smell fumes in a couple of hours, whereas lacquer is offgassing for days afterward.
One final discovery,, Since I over thin shellac I've never had an issue of failing to dry in spite of the use of some pretty old stuff!
What I think happens to shellac has nothing to do with the flakes,, heck I stripped the shellac finish from my 70 year old piano and the rags all quickly dried up nice and stiff.
What I suspect happens is in storage the light ends of the alcohol chain evaporate and produce the problems we call shelf life issues. Since I over thin shellac I haven't experianced that issue..
I said there are places where lacquer is called for.. there may be places lacquer is used but where shellac would be better..
Anything that's been around the thousands of years that shellac has really has things going for itself, don't you think?
Was telling my son, who does some finishing in mich., about the shellac process I was working with as inspired by your posts and he had asked if I was going to flash it with fire. kind of like a flambe or cheries jubilee, I've never heard of flashing off a shellac finish before, have you?
Omah, Don't! Rich
OK Rich I won't.
Omah,
NO! sounds scary as heck!
I'm looking for a finishing method that will add the least possible amount of color to my project...if at all possible I'd like no unpleasant surprises over time, I understand that wood will darken over time, and I'm A-O-K with that, I'm just worried about yellowing, which sounds like a complete nightmare for me. After many years of planning I finally put blade to wood this very afternoon. I cut my inlay pieces and made a few rough cuts, I hate that I have to wait till next weekend to do more as I haven't felt this level of joy and excitement since my wedding night almost 20 years ago.
Starburn,
Youve described your first-time project over many different threads and you've made it very clear that you want to be able to go from almost completely inexperienced to hitting a bullseye in every aspect of this endeavor. You sound like you are extremely emotionally involved in the project.
Please take some gentle advice that you need to step back, slow down and understand that this craft is almost totally "art" vs very little "science." Things can be measured acurately, parts duplicated from instructions to a high degree of precision, but a lot of what you ask for is the result of almost endless personal experimentation, repetition, experience, etc.
There is no "perfect" piece of woodwork. And constructing a high-quality piece is not the result of gathering a lot of information from books and from the willing recommendations of others. All that data is not simply fed into some computer in your head and out comes a wonderful cabinet, possesing all the positive atributes of all the advice you've collected and avoiding all the pitfalls that one could make, otherwise.
It is not until you have made many pieces that a lot of the information you've been collecting will start to make any sense at all! Woodworking is not a process of planning for years, intellectually, then applying everything you've learned into one great effort.
To answer your specific question here, very blonde shellac, CAB-Acrylic Lacquer and almost all water-borne varnishes and laquers will impart the least color to wood and will not themselves yellow at all. They will somewhat impede the yellowing tendancies of woods that naturally yellow.
Nitrocellulose lacquer, oil based finishes, amber shellacs will impart significant color or will yellow over time.
Those are hard facts, but they don't constitute any kind of knowledge base to replace the experience of someone who has done at least some finishing with at least an example of all of those finishes on at least a few different woods. They don't tell you one iota of information regarding how you will feel about a finished piece. And you will feel differently about every one of them and about all the different ways there are to "finish" any of those finishes.
We all would like "no unpleasant surprises over time." But if you want that kind of confidence, you've got to get experience under your belt and no amount of information from others is going to substitute for that. And trust me, you will still get unpleasant surprises over time, lots of them. Sorry.
It is not at all unusual for a very experienced finisher to prepare several "scrap" samples, using the same wood as the actual job, sanding in exactly the same way as the job, using different different dyes, pigments, different final finishes before committing to finishing the actual piece. And remember, such a person already has an excellent idea of what the job will look like, based on his experiences.
Some learn more quickly than others, some get a little lucky early, but there is no way to leap frog over the learning process. I can't tell you how many times I've thought I finally had gotten some process "knocked" only to find that I had to struggle with the same old problems the next 5 times, until I finally did learn how to do it. Or how many times I had to just go on faith that a process that simply wasn't working would finally turn out right if I just "kept trying."
Others here have given you encouragement. If you interpret anything I've written as the opposite, you're dead wrong. But I've seen too many set themselves up for big disappointment going at it as you are.
Rich
Hey Rich,
You are obviously an experienced woodworker and finisher, my advise to alot of these guys is spend the money on furniture instead of tools. My dad retired early from a non woodworking business and within a year was carving humming birds drinking from a flower and my smaller projects are hundreds of square feet, he wins. You are right, quit talking about it, take a night school course and you have access to the tools and if you like it join a co-op, I am sure it is am interesting past time. As a profession it kinda sucks, the varitey eventially becomes tedious which is to say I am tired of learning new things.
A mind is a beautiful thing to waste, Greg Love
Dear Sir I truely do appreciate your advice, and absolutely will run some experiments, before I apply any kind of finish to the actual project, luckily for me i have enough scrap pieces of the same woods to do some long term testing of different methods before I'm forced to commit to a single method. You are absolutely correct in your assessment of my emotional investment in this particular project, and while patience has never been one of my long suits, I find myself forced to agree with you that nothing will replace hands on practice on simpler projects from start to finish that I feel no particular obsession with. Fortunately, classes in woodworking are available in my town, and a whole-hearted participation in same would seem to be not only prudent, but manditory. I admit to being guilty of trying to shortcut the learning process, and slowly the realization is sinking in, that if I don't learn to walk before I sprint, that I'm gonna fall, and hard. So it is with unspeakable sadness that i resign myself to the hard cruel reality that I will be building pieces that I care absolutely NOTHING about in order to learn the skills I'll need to build something I care everything about. Now I've got a new fear: that my mahogany will warp before I get a chance to put my cabinet together, any hints on sealing and storage? Do I have any hope of keeping the pieces flat for future use, or have I jumped the gun once again, and will have to buy new wood when the time comes.
Star, or whatever,Don't call me sir.Geez, man take it easy! Life's too short to be this up tight about this project!"So it is with unspeakable sadness that i resign myself to the hard cruel reality that I will be building pieces that I care absolutely NOTHING about in order to learn the skills I'll need to build something I care everything about."Huh? If you don't want to be able to play the piano, don't waste time on practicing! But also, don't expect that you're going to be known as some instant, fantastic composer and performer. This whole craft is about enjoying the process. Believe me, finsihed works are a BYPRODUCT of the process.Maybe it's because you have never actually done it, but feeling the plane cleanly slice the wood as you take a .002", unbroken ribbon off the edge of a 6' long bubinga board is what it's all about. Maybe it's because you haven't experienced it, but knowing that you can rub out the lacquer finish on a shimmering cocobolo table to a glowing, soft lustre with your eyes closed is what it's all about. Maybe it's because you haven't done it, but preparing the mortise and tenon joints on the legs and aprons of a simple shaker table and having everything fit together pneumatically snug and perfectly square before glue-up is what it's all about. It's the smell and the feel of the material.Yeah, it's very nice to have a finished cherry wood display cabinet. The satisfaction lasts for, oh, a day. Then you make a better one. Or something else. Your best work is ALWAYS your next piece.If you really feel about the learning process the way you've described, forget it, man. You don't want to do this. And if that's the case, relax, do something more fun (if you're actually able to do that about anything). Pay someone who really loves working in wood to make you a beautiful cabinet and enjoy it.No, your wood won't warp if you don't use it right away. What do you think it has, an expiration date? Store it flat, and supported well, the way it already should be. It is, isn't it?Or just slow down, decide to enjoy this. Use the wood you have to make a cabinet. Make all the mistakes you will. Then make another. Then another. Then another. Eventually you'll begin to get it. And grin.Rich
The most fun I've had in my 49 years of livin has been designing this particular piece. I've spent my working life turning other's dreams into reality, and I derive a rather intense satisfaction when every lamp lights the first time I turn on the switch in a new building, but it doesn't last long, it's somebody else's building, somebody else's dream, and there's always the next one to attend to. I really like your philosophy of life being about the journey and not the destination and how that applies to the art of working wood. Very zen. Of course commercial construction is the exact opposite, it's very goal oriented and each and every aspect of it is time critical. I've been totally imersed in this mindset for decades and the older a habit is, the harder it is to change. But I honestly do understand that it won't work here, it won't get me what I want, I'm gonna have to pay my dues, and I'm OK with that. Nothing good comes easily. I should apologise for all my melodrama and impatience, I'm workin on it, ya'll have helped a bunch. Paul K.
Take the offer,
Years ago I wanted to do some through dovetails on the top edges of a chest mage from some pretty expensive Cedar. I had not done these before.
I also needed a new case for my pipes (I had changed from a goretex bag to one with a drying canister but thats not germane to this). I desgned and built a new pipe case with 8 sets of through dovetails. They got better as I went and the Cedar became used to my shed.
I then tackled the cedar chest. Came out pretty well, but should have paid more attention to the finishing.
Have fun
dave
Starburn,
Rich has given you some good advice. You would do well to giving some serious thought to following it.
This is an evolving skill. What you know today will seem like child's play in 6 months. In a year and a half, that will seem like rank beginner stuff, etc. This is not a static craft. If you continue with it, you will always be learning something new.
For the first 6 months, year, or two, you'll likely be learning the "gross" stuff: how to cut a straight line with a hand saw, how to sharpen your edge tools, how to plane, how to read the grain, how to etc., etc., etc.
After that, you start picking up the "tricks of the trade." Subtle things that change your woodworking from "good" or "good enough" to "outstanding."
This is a "hands on" craft. The more you do, the better you get. It is a matter of knowledge and practice, Practice, PRACTICE.
About your impatience: here's something for you to think about, if you're going to do woodworking: Being in a hurry when making something is very likely to result in you messing it up, but more importantly -- it is very likely to result in you getting hurt. Wood can be replaced, but can your fingers or hands or eyes? Think about it.
How can you not care about something you have built with your own hands? It may not be "perfect," and it may be fairly simple, but it was yours -- your effort, your labor, your skill, your sweat...... Every subsequent project can/will get better (and more sophisticated/complicated, if you want) than the previous ones.
Read a lot, ask questions at places like this forum, take some classes, and practice. Be realistic in your expectations -- Mozart didn't compose the "Jupiter" Symphony on the second day he started writing music; you're not likely to to build a Townsend-quality cabinet on your first try, either.....
None of this is intended to discourage you; it IS intended to get you to think about your expectations, what you want to do, and what it will take on your part to get you there.
Have fun, enjoy the journey, and be safe!
Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Edited 1/26/2007 3:19 pm by pzgren
I will be following the excellent advice I've been given here. The logic of it is self-evident, I didn't become a good electrician overnight, actually it took years, and I think electrical work is FAR easier than woodworking. When I build a service for a building, it stays the way I built it, parts of it don't shrink or grow with time, nothing warps, there are no surprises, it's all by the book, numbers rule every thing basically, I hadn't realized how much I love my trade if for no other reason than things stay where you put them. To be honest I'm starting to have very serious doubts that I have enough time left on this earth to learn the skills I'll need to do this project justice. I'd even thought of having a pro build it for me but with the inlays and all the other little details I have in mind, I'd get seriously reamed, so that's out. That leaves me starting with a humble little shelf for all the wife's perfumes. "Course I'd rather be building her a china hutch but....I know, I know...
A "humble little shelf," huh" I'm going to take a chance here, starburn What are the dimensions of the shelf?
3' wide, 18" tall, 12" deep, 3 tiers. Probably of pine or spruce.
That's not a shelf. That's a display rack!I'll tell you what. I'm going to propose a challenge to you. Accept my offer and I'll walk you, step by bloody step, through building a shelf. One single, solitary shelf. One single, solitary, magnificent shelf. 30" long by 12" deep by either 3/4" or 1" thick, depending on lumber supply of the wood I'm going to tell you to use.You will learn some very basic skills that you will use every time you do anything with wood. You will be amazed at the accuracy with which you will be able to carry out these tasks. You will build the shelf out of three separate pieces of (the same) wood, jointed and joined along their length.I'll post diagrams to help you set up your equipment to guarantee good results as you machine the project and work it.When you're done (about 10 days) you will have a piece of furniture (yes furniture) that seems to glow with color and light from inside! You will be astounded that you have created this little gem. Your wife, or anyone else who sees it will immediately want to touch it and gently rub their hands over it in admiration and pleasure. They'll hold it, turn it to various angles to let the finish catch the light. Wait until you experience that!If this little project doesn't completely change your current hysteria about your "dream cabinet" into a quiet desire to be able to learn more about the joy of bringing out the beauty and pleasure inherent in working wood, nothing will.I'm really going out on a limb here, as I'll be exposing myself to a situation in which I'll look terrible if you can't or don't follow my instructions and carry them out. ARE YOU GAME?What equipment do you currently possess?Rich
Edited 1/22/2007 8:18 pm ET by Rich14
I've got: a table saw, circ. saw, Bosch router, w/30 bits, and various shop made jigs I borrowed from FWW, the 3 basic planes, (still need to get a scraper), electric drill, couple of battery drills, T-square, bevel, chisels, a mallot, 6 hammers, every size screwdriver and wrench, a caliper,and a shop vac, but I do my cutting in an open carport, so dust extraction is a non-issue. For finishing I built a 10'x15'x8'frame out of 3/4"EMT(electrical metallic tubing) over which i arrange visquine to keep the pollen off my stuff. I like it because it assembles and dis-assembles in a heartbeat and it was free. for ventilation I fixed a hepa-vac they were throwing away on my last job. (it was just a bad switch, they thought the motor was bad, hee hee) Paul K
Paul,I can't tell from your response if you've accepted my proposition. Yes? No?If no, I won't pursue any further. No problem.If yes, Here's the deal - I live in Northern Arizona. We're leaving midnight tonight, driving to Phoenix for a trip to Puerto Rico. I won't have Internet access again, probably for 24 hours. After that somewhat intermittantly, and I'll try to log in here. Be home in a week. I fully meant what I said in my offer.What variety of table saw do you have, contractors or cabinet style? Is it in good working order? What 3 planes do you have? I assume you are not proficient being able to tune them, put a razor edge on them. Correct me if I'm wrong.Rich
Rich, Yes, I'll take the challenge, and I'm very gratefull for the help. My table saw is a cabinet style, brand spankin new, just put it together last Sunday, and I did spring for a real nice freud thin kerf titanium blade, the thing cuts like a dream. My plane are a #4 smoothing plane a block plane, and a shoulder plane, and you are correct in assumming I'm not proficient at either tuning or sharpening them, but FWW just ran a great article on this very subject. As for gettin back to me on this stuff, it can wait, man just enjoy your vacation, I'm changing my attitude, I'm pullin the rush off all of it. I'm begginning to gain some understanding of how complex woodworking is, so many details, I think I've started gaining some respect for the process. I've got to approach it the way I learned my trade, it's been so long I'd forgotten what it's like not to know a dang thing about what I'm doing. So bon voyage and safe trip. (The wife was tickled to hear I'll be making her perfume shelf before my cabinet so I didn't bother to mention it was because I need the practice) Paul
Paul,
While you're waiting for Rich to get back from exotic locales, you might find this useful:
Here's what I do when I teach plane tune-up classes (This assumes that your plane is complete, generally undamaged, and not too rusty or grimy.):
1) Disassemble and inspect the plane. Take everything apart: knob, tote, lever cap, iron, chip breaker, frog, iron adjustment wheel, all screws. Inspect for rust, grime, missing parts, damage to parts, etc.
2) Clean everything. Mineral spirits and steel wool/scotchbrite-type pads work well for most cleaning. If the rust is really bad, you can use electrolysis. A brass/bronze toothbrush-sized brush is also handy for getting in to corners and such. I generally don't use a wire wheel because it can damage parts, but that's up to you whether to use one or not.
3) Re-inspect and note any damage, etc., that might have been hidden by rust or grime.
4) Determine whether the frog bosses on the casting are flat and parallel: set the frog on the bosses and try to rock the frog. If it rocks -- doesn't sit flat and square on the bosses -- then either the frog boss(es) on the casting or the bottom of the frog are not flat/parallel. Or both may need work. Use a fine file to make the bosses on the casting flat and parallel, as necessary. Use a light touch here, and try to remove as little metal as is absolutely necessary.
5) Flatten the bottom of the frog, as necessary (see #4, above). Also, use a straight edge to determine whether the iron bedding surface of the frog is flat and parallel. If not, use a file to flatten/make parallel, as necessary. You want the iron to mate tightly and as completely as possible with this surface -- it helps make the iron rigid, reducing chatter. Again, a light touch with the file is best.
6) Inspect the mouth. The forward edge should be flat and square to the sole. If not square it and/or flatten it, as required. This is one place where you really, really want to remove as little metal as is absolutely necessary. The tighter the mouth can be made, the better results -- i.e., less tear-out -- (all other things being equal) you will get when use it as a smoothing plane.
7) Inspect the mating surface of the lever cap. File it square and flat, as necessary. Remove the file marks on a medium and then fine smoothing stone. Lubricate the lever mechanism on the upper end.
8) Inspect the mating surface of the chip breaker. File it square and flat, as necessary. Remove the file marks on a medium and then fine smoothing stone. Polish the upper portion of the leading edge with 400/600 (and higher grits, if you desire) sand paper. The mating surface should completely mate with the iron -- with no gaps. This will help prevent shavings from sticking between the chip breaker and the iron, and jamming your plane. It also makes the iron more rigid and helps prevent chatter. The polished upper leading edge helps move the shavings up and away from the mouth.
9) Inspect the iron. Grind as necessary. The leading edge needs to be square to the sides. Polish the reverse (non-bevel side) of the iron (about 1" to 1½" back from the cutting edge) to a mirror polish. You should be able to see fine details in the reflection. (You normally have to do this only once; subsequent sharpenings/honings will keep it that way.) Then hone the bevel side of the iron progressively up through your finest sharpening stone. Add a micro-bevel, if desired.
10) Put a very light coat of oil on all screws and pivot points. Clean and polish the brass iron adjustment wheel, as needed/desired.
11) Make any necessary repairs to the knob and/or tote. Sand off any old nasty finish and refinish the knob and tote with oil, shellac, etc., as needed/desired. I strongly recommend against polyurethane; it looks horrible on wooden plane parts.
12) Reassemble the plane. Withdraw the iron above the level of the sole. You want the plane fully assembled to introduce whatever stresses will be present when planing into the lapping process, so that the sole is flat when the plane is set-up for use. Lap the sides if desired (not really needed for a smoothing plane, unless you're going to use it on a shooting board. If so, then make sure that you lap the sides at exactly a 90° angle to the sole.) Now comes the fun part: lap the sole. Use a known flat surface (float/plate glass, surface plate, etc. Some recommend using the wing of a table saw or one of the tables on a jointer; personally, I cringe at the thought of deliberately introducing grit into fine machinery....) Start with 80 grit and progressively work your way up to 220 grit; don't skip a grit. You can go higher, but once you pass 220, you're just polishing the surface. Water or a light machine oil on the sand paper makes a good lubricant to float the swarf away. How flat is flat? Well, for smoothing planes, the general rule of thumb is "flatter is better." At the least, you want the first 1" or so of the toe, the ½" to 1" in front of the mouth, the ½" to 1" behind the mouth, and the last 1" or so of the heel to be co-planar. Using a permanent marker to mark wavy lines on the sole will help you see your progress. Continue lapping until you have reached the desired level of flatness. This is quite boring, but you need to maintain your attention to the task at hand to do a good job. It may take only a couple of minutes or it may take a couple of hours, depending on what shape the sole of your plane is in and how flat you want it. Use an accurate straight edge to check flatness from toe to heel and from side to side, especially in front of the mouth. Once you have finished lapping the sole, disassemble and clean as necessary. If you used water as the lubricant, make sure that you get all of the water off your plane, to prevent new rust!!
13) Reassemble the plane, and adjust the iron for a light cut. Test your newly-tuned plane on a nice piece of hard wood. You should be able to take nice, full-width, translucent shavings. Enjoy!
There are many different possible sequences to do this; the one listed above is merely the one that I use.
_____
You can expect a well-tuned smoothing plane to put a surface on a piece of wood that is ready to apply finish to. When you look at the surface against a light at a low angle, the surface of the wood should reflect the light like glass, and it should feel almost glass-smooth.
Have fun, and good luck!Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
thank you sir! I just printed up your post and put it in the maintenance section of a woodworking notebook I have. Your detailed advice was even better than the FWW article and MUCH appreciated. Paul K
Greetings fom tropical climes. It's 11:15 am Puerto Rico time, Tuesday (I hope). Just woke up after sleeping about 12 hours. It took close to 24 hours of continuous traveling (if you count 4 hour layover at Houston as "continuous") to get from Northern Arizona to San Juan! I'm just gonna hang for a while. I'll get back to you later.Rich
ya man, enjoy your vacation, this stuff can wait till ya get back. Paul K.
Hi Paul,
Back from San Juan, Puerto Rico. Trying to catch up on messages and sleep!
Stayed at the El San Juan Hotel, which is apparently the class act on the island. It's a grand old hotel with a lobby so massive as to defy description. There is more (solid) mahogany in that lobby and associated areas than I could imagine could be produced in the world in a year! All wonderfully and intricately carved and finished. Paneling and forrests of columns and carved beams and ceilings as far as the eye can see in any particular direction.
If you're still willing, we can embark on the previously-discussed project. If we do, we should probably start a brand new thread. Still game?
Rich
To Rich and Frenchy:
I wanted to thank Rich and Frenchy for the advise and rants about using shellac! I asked about using lacquer over shellac, Frenchy gave me the booger threat, I went off to the "test board" and shellac it I did. Using the Frenchy method, its just beautiful. I havn't even "leveled" it yet. Might have more questions after sanding...... and I cant wait for Rich's shelf making project to start.
THaks,
KB
Keef,
I'm glad to see you come over to the dark side!
Follow just a bit more of my advice and you too will become a woodaholic!
<G>
Hello, My name is frenchy and I'm a woodaholic, it's been sixteen hours since I attempted to buy more wood!
Welcome back, Rich. From your description, I imagine I'd of spent my whole vacation in the hotel lobby, hope you have lots of pictures to share. I'm still attempting to pin wifey down on what she wants, the sketch I ran by her was met with mild, if lukewarm approval. It turns out she'd had in mind more of a wall hung cabinet, (30"x30"x4"deep), rather than a shelf. So it looks like my daughter gets the shelf, whilst I continue paperwork on the wife's cabinet. The weather forcast for the immediate future here, in Sumter, SC is unfavorable for work in my open air shop, plus I've exhausted my wood budget for February allready. I'm optimistic about the possibility of shakin loose a few bucks from somewhere in the next week or so, enough to get the wood for the simple shelf we'd previously discussed.
http://www.turncent.com/vr2.html
Go to this site, there is a picture of a marquetry table. it only requires a knife and some time, a pocket knife and a chunk of any wood, carve a lucky charm, just do it man. Rich is right start a new thread this is I hate finishing. But while I am off topic, Rich did you get the feeling there were more trees on the planet when that lobby was done, I guess thats the price we pay. By the way I hate finishing a little less this week, but I still hate it. Finally found a paint shop that will consider doing our more demanding finishing but I don't know how it will turn out, maybe they have lower standards than me.
Later, Grey Glove
PS There are lots of free drawing programs on the internet, why don't you try mastering one of them, build in virtual space, you may find it as satyisfiing without heating the shop.
Dear Mr. Glove, my humblest apologies for straying off topic, and for posting such an offensively unprofessional sketch. I can confidently promise to abstain from such transgressions in the future, as I'll be elsewhere. This forum is obviously for the grad-level woodworker, and I'm not even ready for the pre-school stuff, my continued presence here serves only to embarrass myself and bore others. Again my sincerest apologies for the distracting intrusion, (it surely was not my intent). I'll delete FWW.com from my faves list and you can color me gone.
Starburn,
Please don't react like that.. This is not as some claim a limited society..
They even allow me in for cripes sake and frankly you can't get much lower than me.. I mean I have to look up to whale ship lying on the ocen floor bottom. (did I accidently type a p instead of a T there? <G> I digress.
I hope you'll remain and add whatever you can..
frenchy, I'm gonna build some things, and finnish some things. When I have, maybe I'll feel like I have something to contribute, even though I know I'll still be a novice, but that's ok. Ya'll take care. Paul
starburn.
Heck I used to attend sportscar club meetings long before I got my first sportscar. It was just fun to sit around and absorb atmosphere and hang out..
Because I did I learned a great deal, got to join a race team, aquired experiance and have been having fun ever since!
Now I'm the wisened old vetern with experiance and I enjoy sharing my knowledge and helping other, I'm giving back..
With wood working, I'm much more of a novice.. I flunked wood shop in school and avoided it ever since, except about 10 years ago I bought a class at a grandfather clock company and found out that I was able to do very respectable work.. What a shock!
It's a real stretch to go from building a grandfather clock to building a double timberfram hous from scratch out of hardwoods, but I'm getting there. What I learn along the way I'm sharing as I learn it..
Why don't you do the same?
frenchy.
I'm looking into ww classes at my local tech school. And I too see the benifits of just listening in, there's a wealth of info to be had here.
Paul K
What are you trying to make me feel bad. I was only pointing out that picking up a piece of wood and knife is a better use of time if you are truly interested in woodworking than trying to get people to feel sorry for you. As far as the new topic point I was making I was just on a thread for glue for bent laminating and it was way off topic, alot of reading but no new information on the subject. Your sketch, I work from worse everyday I was just pointing out there are some very good free download drawing programs if you want to improve your skills. Now because every good cabinetmaker is a little OCD I must finish off on topic, I hate fininshing, a little less today, I was asked by a customer to make shelves look like aluminum, my huge paint supplier could only give me colors so I added powdered alum to clear lacquer and it worked like a charm, but I must always remind myself that for every success I have in the booth I have two overbudget projects. The origonal point of this thread was wheather to farm out finishing projects, the next time I come across a finish I don't want to attempt I plan on doing this, I will post the results at such time.
Grey Glove
Yellow is in the wood, maple, birch, ash, pine. The worst I have seen for darkening is cherry, turn over the top sheet and cover the unfinished project as you work on it. Even after it is stained and finished move that candle stick on the shelf every week or so or you will end up with a light circle. Teak will change color within miniutes of being surfaced. Purple heart and rosewood turn black when used as inlay. Everything oxidizes.
If you want to try something radical why don't you try adding a hint of blue to the finish.
Grey Glove
what happens to African Mahogany when used as an inlay? Darkening, up to a point might be nice, but turning black would be nothing short of disasterous.
To tell you the truth I thought African mahogony was wiped off the planet during the time of Hempelwhite, but to answer your question, red, its mahogony it will turn dark red. Most of the "wood"I use comes from New Jersey. Brookside veneers, veneers.com, flaked and formed and dyed like a chicken mc nugget, pressed onto particle board, my favorite substrate. Veneer has always been used for quality furniture, solid wood furniture was popular in the 70's but it was more of a knee jerk reaction to prove you were a naturalist.
Grey Glove
I guess there's different quality particle boards. It always makes me think of the garbage gets at wallmart...the stuff that crumbles in year or two, even if it never gets wet, and turns to mush instantly if you so much as show it a picture of water...
you know the small projects are fun for me because they can be completed in a reasonable amount of time to get that sense having made something. the larger projects that i have taken on often get put to the side while i quickly complete a smaller one and get to feel that rush of finishing. then i come back to the larger one and plug on for a few more days or weeks hoping there is some sense of completion coming soon. small projects are fun!
roger that, I see it as a very neccessary stepping stone
There are several finishes that will not add color. However all wood when wetted with any type of solvent based finish will darken. To test for what color you will get just wipe the wood with a rag soaked in lacquer thiner, paint thiner, etc. You can use water also but it will raise the wood grain. That color is what it will look like when finished natural.
What is your project and how will it be used? I need to know before offering any specific recommendations.
Steve Nearman
Fredericksburg, VA
View ImageThe Master's Touch
Furniture Restoration Service
Quality restorations and repairs for over 35 years!
(540) 371-5566
http://FurnitureRepair.net/
My project is a display cabinet: 8' wide, 5' tall and 6" deep with 32 glass shelves arranged in 3 sections with compartments on top and bottom filled with electronics to drive over 300 LEDs (light emitting diodes) aimed at the shelf ends, and fiber optic strands poked through a black velvet background to simulate a starry night. It won't be subject to any kind of weather, ever, including sunlight or excesses of humidity or temperature, (our generator's big enough to run our A/C in the event of power failures)
What is the wood and what color are you trying to achieve? What are the inlays?
Steve Nearman
Fredericksburg, VA
View ImageThe Master's Touch
Furniture Restoration Service
Quality restorations and repairs for over 35 years!
(540) 371-5566
http://FurnitureRepair.net/
red oak with african mahogany inlays. I'd really like just a hint of red on my red oak, the mahogany needs no stain whatsoever as it's really exciting just the way it is, as long as I get some contrast I'm happy. The thing is, I really have been listening to all the good advice I've been getting, and I'm backin off the throttle just a bit. I don't want the thing to look slapped together, and now that I've found a local wood supplier, my options open up just a bit. I'm seriously toying with idea of using cherry with the a.m. inlays, I'll still get all the contrast I want and they may be more complimentary. It may just be that I'll have to take some scraps, finnish them off and see which one I like better.
Hi Frenchy,
I wrote up a few questions in the "I Love Finishing" thread and a member suggested that I ask you. If you have time, you may want to look at that post.
In essence, I like the color of the Zinsser amber shellac but have had difficulty getting a consistent color. It seems like it has a high level of particles, unlike the shellac I mix, and after the first coat, if I don't get it just right, I cannot seem to blend in later coats to remove light spots.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
Chris
Chris,
I'm just now starting to read a little bit about mixing your own flakes, I've known about it for a while but it never made sense to me.. I mean I could use the premixed stuff and save $40.00 or $50.00 per gallon.. I like the grain to be the show not the color so it really didn't make a lot of sense.
In the past when I would need to stain stuff, I'd use a wash coat of clear shellac to make the stain an even color, stain and then do the three finish coats with shellac..
Shellac helps to eliminate the splotchy color you see in pine and cherry.. as well as other woods on occasion..
Frenchy, Thanks lots for your reply. I will leave the lacquer on the shelf, and work with shellac. I think one of my problems with polythanes is to thick a coat, brush marks and runs are a constant hassle. I have no problem with a little yellow, it mellows things quite well. I work mostly in pine, spruce,poplar, and a little birch, all light woods that can handle a little mellow yellow.
PTU, yes, just bundle them up. I'll private message you my address so that I can properlty dispose of these hazardous tools. ;-)
Ok, It sounds like the multicoat of shelac is pretty much what I have been doing for a while. However i sometimes have issues with, what apears to me anyway, the fact that when I put on the next coat it is like the first one gets soft and the whole thing gets kind of messed up. Any idea what this issue is? It does not happen a lot but it does happen sometimes. And while we are on this do you think it is really better to make your own from flakes?
Doug Meyer
"when I put on the next coat it is like the first one gets soft and the whole thing gets kind of messed up"
Yes, the alcohol in a new coat of shellac disolves the underlying shellac. It takes some practice to learn how to prevent disturbing the existing coat. I always spray shellac for a variety of reasons, including this.
I make my own shellac from flakes, but I don't think there is any advantage to doing this vs buying premixed from Zinser regarding the qulaity of the finish layer. I like to mix my own superblond which is lighter than Zinser's "seal coat."
Rich
Ah, I see. That is what I suspected the issue was. So I guess it is the how to get to Carnegie Hall bit eh?
Anyway I will have to just keep plugging away at it I guess. As for the flakes a lot of people seem to have a lot of opinions on this. Personally I like the warmer tones for most of what I have been doing so far. So I don't have an issue as far as color goes.
Doug Meyer
Yes,
You have to know how to get to Carnegie Hall.
The shellac has to know that you know how to apply it. Once it does, it stops misbehaving. Funny how that works!
Rich
AH, so once you prove you are the man to it, the shellac rolls over and gives up? Hum I guess I will have to develop that show no fear bit before going back into the shop to do finishing.
Doug Meyer
Doug,
Be the man. Be the Alpha Dog. BE THE SHELLAC!
I am supposed to be flaky and disolve in alcohol?
Doug Meyer
I don't know anyone that isn't flakey when dissolved in alcohol!
Edited 1/11/2007 8:17 pm by ptu
Rich,
This might be from trying to work the new coat with the brush. My relitively low experience says that if you try and work shellac while it is wet you get into trouble; lay it on quickly with thin coats and the new coat is pretty well flashed off before it gets a chance to do more than bond with the coat below.
I have some pieces that i messed up years ago to remind me of all these lessons. They get used every day (bedroom suite) so the opportunity for the completely doable fix is a bit limited.
dave
Patto, Yup. As far as I'm concerned, spraying is the only way to apply any finish. Brushing is too slow for me and has too many possibilities for problems. Rich
I agree its my most unpleasent thing to do except for when its done.
So, do what I did purchase a "HVLP". It works great, you just have to do clean up, usually simple to do. I can only spray in warmer weather but it works good.
Scott
Zinsser has a really nice product called Quick 15 that is an alklyd Shellac that is very thin, flows on without brush strokes, dries to the touch in 15 minutes and can be recoated in 3-4 hours depending on temp and humidity. It comes in satin or gloss and really gives a quick hard finish with a small amount of amber coloring. I have used it on trim, bookcase, etc and was really happy with the results.
The Quick 15 is not shellac. It is an oil based alkyd varnish, using some pretty quick evaporating solvents including toluene and naptha, with fairly low solids content. You would have to work pretty quickly with this. You will have a little more brushing time than with shellac, but not much. You have to be very careful not to try to go back over an area that has begun to get tacky. I haven't used it so I can't go much further about its handling or performance. Once it cures, it can't be redissolved with solvent like shellac.
You are right, I was spending too much time watching the game instead of what I was writing. I agree that you have to work fast and it might not be the best for tabletops, etc. but for smaller items is has been quick and easy. Thanks for catching my goof!
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